Getting more out of my strikers

[Undy]

I'm currently a few seasons into a save with Rangers, playing a 4-2-3-1 gegenpress. LB and RB are always wing backs (At), CMs are usually a BWM & AP or a BBM & DLP. CAM typically a SS, occasionally an AP or Enganche (to try to utilise a 34 year old Mesut Ozil). Wide men are pretty much always IFs, and the striker pretty much always an AF. As you'd expect, we dominate possession against most other Scottish teams. Results tend to be good too, so far in the current season I have won 8 from 8 with a goal difference of 23 (scored 25, conceded 2). I have two very similar forwards who can take the AF role, both very quick (Acc/Pace 16/16), both 17 for finishing, 16 first touch, 14 technique, lowest is 14 for dribbling. Mental stats aren't quite so good - one has 16 OTB the other only 10, composure at 12/10 respectively. Basically, these two guys should both be able to make mincemeat of Scottish football. One has 5 goals in 23 appearances, the other 11 goals in 31 (maybe a third of these games played on the wing). Watching games in detail, other than chasing after long balls, running down the channel and smashing it into the side netting, neither really ever seems to do much. Goals typically come from the IFs and the SS. I'd be fine with my strikers being low on goals if they were involved in a lot of the link-up play, but between them they have 3 assists from their combined 54 appearances.

I understand that playing with IFs and a SS means I should expect the goals to be distributed across the team more, but it almost feels like playing with a man down as it is. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to tweak the tactic to get more out of these guys? Ideally I'd like to take advantage of their massive goalscoring potential to get my numbers up more, but I'm also considering just selling them both and bringing in someone I can play as a DLF to help the rest of the attackers out more.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Undy said:

we dominate possession against most other Scottish teams. Results tend to be good too, so far in the current season I have won 8 from 8 with a goal difference of 23 (scored 25, conceded 2)

If the tactic really works so great as you say, who on earth should care about the strikers - or any other (single) player - not playing as well as you might want/expect them to? 

My advice is simple - if a tactic works and is producing results you are satisfied with, then you better don't make any changes, lest you risk ruining it completely.

[Undy]

1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

If the tactic really works so great as you say, who on earth should care about the strikers - or any other (single) player - not playing as well as you might want/expect them to? 

My advice is simple - if a tactic works and is producing results you are satisfied with, then you better don't make any changes, lest you risk ruining it completely.

It's for those games we don't win - the shock cup losses and the tougher European games. Those are the ones that really feel like I'm playing a man down. Getting better returns from my strikers in those games would make a massive difference in terms of our club progress. I get so little out of them that I'm almost considering dropping the AF out entirely and just adding an extra body in midfield, but that doesn't really give any explanation as to why my forwards are so uninvolved in games. 

[Experienced Defender]

If so, I hope someone else will visit this thread to offer you some useful advice, because I would really prefer to avoid commenting on your tactical setup (described in your opening post). Simply put, your tactic is a total opposite of how I approach the tactical side of the game, which means that I would change it completely. That's the reason why I don't want to get involved in any further discussion on your tactic, sorry 

Anyway, I honestly wish you good luck 

[rockpie]

12 hours ago, Undy said:

4-2-3-1 gegenpress.

LB and RB are always wing backs (At)

 CMs are usually a BWM & AP or a BBM & DLP.

CAM typically a SS, occasionally an AP or Enganche (to try to utilise a 34 year old Mesut Ozil).

Wide men are pretty much always IFs.

And the striker pretty much always an AF

Without changing the system as a whole (it's working for you, so no need) I'm not sure Advanced Forward is the best role for a striker in this system.

Advanced Forward generally plays best with space to run into, beating offside traps, stretching defenses with runs in behind to create space for a supporting midfielder to run into and exploit. Basically, he works best when there is space behind the defensive line.

Your whole tactical approach is making him a void player, since your gegenpress is designed to pin opposition in their own half, press high and this leaves no space for the AF to exploit in the way he does best.

You will find much better success, I think, with a Deep Lying Forward (s) or even a Pressing Forward (s) who will look to get more involved in the build up phases as well as positioning themselves appropriately to attack deliveries in the box from the WBs.

Edited December 2, 2019 by rockpie

[Undy]

1 hour ago, rockpie said:

Without changing the system as a whole (it's working for you, so no need) I'm not sure Advanced Forward is the best role for a striker in this system.

Advanced Forward generally plays best with space to run into, beating offside traps, stretching defenses with runs in behind to create space for a supporting midfielder to run into and exploit. Basically, he works best when there is space behind the defensive line.

Your whole tactical approach is making him a void player, since your gegenpress is designed to pin opposition in their own half, press high and this leaves no space for the AF to exploit in the way he does best.

You will find much better success, I think, with a Deep Lying Forward (s) or even a Pressing Forward (s) who will look to get more involved in the build up phases as well as positioning themselves appropriately to attack deliveries in the box from the WBs.

Thanks, this makes sense as the best success I had with a forward was with Morelos as a pressing forward, although his goals dried up for a whole season too and I ended up flogging him to Roma before his value tanked. I've got a DLF (Jonas Wind - I only bought him because Celtic wanted him...) out on loan who I might recall in the January window, see if he can contribute a bit more.

[FabianJonsson]

As stated above, an advanced forward will not see much success in a high-press system, typically. What I did in a similar situation was to retrain my fast poacher-type player to an IF (AML since he was right footed) and played a better linkup player as a DLF. He ended up scoring lots of goals coming in from the flank.

Edited December 2, 2019 by FabianJonsson

[TottenhamBoi90]

Deep lying forwards link so much better with inside forwards for me at the moment. Teamed with wing backs mezzala deep lying playmaker I’m sure a shadow would work well as well. Beauty being Rangers you can experiment domestically and just do what works in Europe.

[frukox]

I often encounter situations like this and I also want my strikers to be the main goalscorers. So, what I am doing is to use a DLF-A. Actually, my whole system is designed to get the best from him and BBM. The suppliers are left and right full backs with an IF-S, by the way. I tried AF, CF, PF and P but none of them worked the way I wanted.

[marcMCFC1986]

It's because the game is broken - I'm just waiting for them to release a patch before I even bother playing. I had the same problem with all the saves I've tried so far - two of which were with Man City, and Aguero scored 2 goals in a season.

 

16 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

If the tactic really works so great as you say, who on earth should care about the strikers - or any other (single) player - not playing as well as you might want/expect them to? 

My advice is simple - if a tactic works and is producing results you are satisfied with, then you better don't make any changes, lest you risk ruining it completely.

I understand what you're saying, however in the above mentioned save, we may have done well in the end as a team, but Aguero scoring 2 and De Bruyne scoring about 25+, almost all of which were from outside the box, just takes so much realism away from the game that I just didn't enjoy it.

 

Praying this patch is sooner rather than later...!

[frukox]

7 minutes ago, marcMCFC1986 said:

It's because the game is broken - I'm just waiting for them to release a patch before I even bother playing. I had the same problem with all the saves I've tried so far - two of which were with Man City, and Aguero scored 2 goals in a season.

 

I understand what you're saying, however in the above mentioned save, we may have done well in the end as a team, but Aguero scoring 2 and De Bruyne scoring about 25+, almost all of which were from outside the box, just takes so much realism away from the game that I just didn't enjoy it.

 

Praying this patch is sooner rather than later...!

My Aguero scored more than fifty goals in one of my saves using him as a DLF-A;)

Edited December 2, 2019 by frukox

[Experienced Defender]

9 minutes ago, marcMCFC1986 said:

It's because the game is broken - I'm just waiting for them to release a patch before I even bother playing. I had the same problem with all the saves I've tried so far - two of which were with Man City, and Aguero scored 2 goals in a season

 

2 minutes ago, frukox said:

My Aguero scored more than fifty goals in one of my saves

Which is yet another proof that - as always - the problem is not with the game (being "broken") but poorly (or at least insufficiently well) designed tactics 

[frukox]

3 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

Which is yet another proof that - as always - the problem is not with the game (being "broken") but poorly (or at least insufficiently well) designed tactics 

I can’t agree more than this. There are no plug-and-play tactics. You can play that way but I can at least suggest reading all tactical readings and Rashidi’s videos. I learned lots of stuff from him and Cleon.

[marcMCFC1986]

10 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

Which is yet another proof that - as always - the problem is not with the game (being "broken") but poorly (or at least insufficiently well) designed tactics 

The devs wouldn't be working on a fix, if the game wasn't broken...

[Experienced Defender]

44 minutes ago, marcMCFC1986 said:

The devs wouldn't be working on a fix, if the game wasn't broken...

Nobody says that the game is perfect, and of course there is always room for improvement, so the devs will normally have something to work on. But claiming that the game "is broken" just because some people don't know how to create a normal and sensible tactic that works is a bit too much IMHO. But okay - everybody is entitled to their own opinion, after all. 

[HUNT3R]

@marcMCFC1986 Enough. The tactics forum is for discussing tactical advice and tactical options. Regardless of ME issues, there are solutions. In some cases it may not be perfect, but it's not what users are here for. People want solutions and users here provide that as much as is possible.

[Undy]

Let me see how I get on in the second half of the season with a DLP and I'll report back. Already had what looks like a little improvement playing Alawi Mohammed (a real player I signed on a free from Al Jazira) as a false 9 - he doesn't have the physicality to play as a DLF.

Another issue I'm having - and I think this one might just be down to the match engine - is my inside forwards running down the edge of the six-yard box then blasting shots into the side netting from what can't be better than a 5° angle. This happens half a dozen or so times a game and is bloody annoying. Is there any way to stop them doing this, maybe by taking on the shot sooner? I don't want to tell them to shoot more often only for them to take even more low-percentage shots instead of passing to someone in a better position. 

[Undy]

I punted Alawi Mohammed in the January window - 5'9 with 2 strength wasn't going to cut it as a DLF - and brought back Jonas Wind from his loan. The improvement was incredible, with the only real black mark being a 3-2 aggregate loss against Inter in the Champions League. Wind got 13 goals in 18 games and was involved in a lot of the build-up for other goals, and we racked up a few demolitions - three at 7-0 and one at 6-0. 

I think my other problem should be fixed by the new patch, going by the "fewer shots from the byline" in the release notes. Improvements to finishing CCCs should be interesting too.

[rockpie]

1 hour ago, Undy said:

The improvement was incredible

Good to hear