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Arsenal02071

Are there "scripted" elements in FM?

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I'm fully aware that this may come across as one of those "it must not have been my fault" questions but I'll give it a go because I'm genuinely curious about this. Full disclosure: I have not played much of the full FM games prior to FM20, but I've done handheld for a couple of years now.

After my first season with AZ in which I had a 70% or so win percentage and got sacked for one bad result near the end, I went to Feyenoord. Immediately we hit really good form and essentially for the entire season, I'm neck and neck with Ajax in the title race. Both of us won say the last 10 or so matches of the season before the final day, and on the last matchday Ajax are a point ahead of me and they are home to a side near the bottom, so I accept that I've likely lost the title.

Except then to my astonishment, the scores flash up and within no time Ajax are down 2-0. Pretty soon thereafter, I go ahead. Fast forward to the end of the match and Ajax are dead and buried, and I'm leading 2-1 in the final moments. I switch from my attacking 4-3-3 to a 4-5-1 and pull my wingers back so I'm not wide open, and I make two very late substitutions to try and break up the momentum of the game and wind the clock down.

There are three minutes of stoppage time added, but in the 95th minute their winger is to the far left side outside of the box, and proceeds to rifle a shot into the top corner and I lose the title. In the post match press conference, I'm asked a question I've never been asked until that point when I've given up a late goal: did the referee add on too much stoppage time? Well, hell yes was my answer...

I just didn't know what to think after this. Not only do Ajax lose a match they never should've been losing based on what they'd done all season, but then when I'm about to capitalize and win the title the ball flies into the top corner over two minutes past what's should've been full time? Then they specifically ask me about it in the press conference, as if the game knows exactly what it's just done? I really like the game but there was so much strange about this to me. I accept that I'm likely just extremely bitter about it, but the manner in which it all happened was so absurd I just had to get it off my chest.

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No, the matches are generated live as you play, as are matches that are happening at the same time as yours, so it wasn't scripted at all. The error was probably you taking your foot off the gas and going more defensive, which would have given the opposition more opportunity to push forward without being pressed back into their half.

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6 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

No, the matches are generated live as you play, as are matches that are happening at the same time as yours, so it wasn't scripted at all. The error was probably you taking your foot off the gas and going more defensive, which would have given the opposition more opportunity to push forward without being pressed back into their half.

Yeah I understand obviously that making that change right at the end carries some risk with it, but it felt sensible to me to just sit in for the very last moments and not break forward and open up unnecessarily.

I was more just flabbergasted that the referee decided to add on two minutes that shouldn't have existed and that's what lost it for me. 

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1 minute ago, Arsenal02071 said:

Yeah I understand obviously that making that change right at the end carries some risk with it, but it felt sensible to me to just sit in for the very last moments and not break forward and open up unnecessarily.

I was more just flabbergasted that the referee decided to add on two minutes that shouldn't have existed and that's what lost it for me. 

It happens in real life as well, depending on if any fouls or the like happen during added time. I can see how it'd be galling for the goal that stops you winning the league to be in extra added time.

Edited by JordanMillward_1

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Yeah and it was particularly galling given that I rarely gave up goals like that and had also not even drawn a match in ages.

And I'm now in February of the following season and I've not sustained a challenge at all this campaign which makes it even harder to take.

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The ball was just too bouncy on the night!

What could argued to be "scripted" is the Level of AI Management. Though that isn't a script as such either, it's coding dynamic decision making. It's just SI ensuring that the game provides a reasonable "challenge" (without exploiting its flaws anyhow, upon which the AI is hopeless even if you did Little more than Pressing continue), all the while not overwhelming more casual players.

Oddly enough, and developers of RPGs find this too, Players prefer "scripted" Elements in their RNG simulations. How many times do you see somebody complaining that Ronaldo would have missed three penalties on the bounce. Yet that is to happen in an open ended Simulation, as each Penalty has the Chance of a miss. The only Thing that would stop this, would indeed be Scripting Things. Adding a line that goes: "If two pens are missed by CR7, then the next is to be a Goal, end of". I would personally loathe that Kind of Thing.

Edited by Svenc

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27 minutes ago, Svenc said:

The ball was just too bouncy on the night!

What could argued to be "scripted" is the Level of AI Management. Though that isn't a script as such either, it's coding dynamic decision making. It's just SI ensuring that the game provides a reasonable "challenge" (without exploiting its flaws anyhow, upon which the AI is hopeless even if you did Little more than Pressing continue), all the while not overwhelming more casual players.

Oddly enough, and developers of RPGs find this too, Players prefer "scripted" Elements in their RNG simulations. How many times do you see somebody complaining that Ronaldo would have missed three penalties on the bounce. Yet that is to happen in an open ended Simulation, as each Penalty has the Chance of a miss. The only Thing that would stop this, would indeed be Scripting Things. Adding a line that goes: "If two pens are missed by CR7, then the next is to be a Goal, end of". I would personally loathe that Kind of Thing.

Yeah by "scripted' in this context, I simply meant that there were so many coincidences that occurred at the same time which made it feel weird to me. Ajax happen to lose a match they never should have after going on like a 15 match winning streak, then I happen to concede a 95th minute equalizer which I almost never do, and then I happen to get asked a question directly about it afterwards which confirmed to me that the game on some level knows that me conceding in that way was total nonsense.

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You could say in a way that the question was scripted -- an equalizer on the stoppage time should generate that kind of question, so I guess that the reporters always ask that question on that case.

 

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I won a cup final or semi-final in the 96th of 94 minutes and the game asked me the exact same question. Basically did the referee get the added time right, and I was like damn straight he did. 

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1 hour ago, kiwityke1983 said:

I won a cup final or semi-final in the 96th of 94 minutes and the game asked me the exact same question. Basically did the referee get the added time right, and I was like damn straight he did. 

Well I'm glad to see that Fergie time works for some people because it sure as hell didn't for me.

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1 minute ago, Arsenal02071 said:

Well I'm glad to see that Fergie time works for some people because it sure as hell didn't for me.

I've won back to back domestic quadruples 8n Singapore so yeah I get a lot of dodgy big team decisions it feels like haha

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My honest belief is that pretty much everything in the game is run through a random number generator, with semi-scripted 'negative events' corresponding to a 'roll of the dice'. A few years ago, after one of my players had a training injury on a day off, I loaded my previous save, played up until that date, and lo and behold, an injury to another player (who also wasn't training).

Basically, at certain points, the game is just going to screw you according to a roll of the figurative dice - with a loss, an injury, a player throwing a temper tantrum, etc - no matter what you do.

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10 minutes ago, cwc1 said:

My honest belief is that pretty much everything in the game is run through a random number generator, with semi-scripted 'negative events' corresponding to a 'roll of the dice'. A few years ago, after one of my players had a training injury on a day off, I loaded my previous save, played up until that date, and lo and behold, an injury to another player (who also wasn't training).

Basically, at certain points, the game is just going to screw you according to a roll of the figurative dice - with a loss, an injury, a player throwing a temper tantrum, etc - no matter what you do.

SI have explained any number of times how the matches work, and this isn't how it works. It's determined second by second throughout the match, nothing is pre-determined.

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3 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

SI have explained any number of times how the matches work, and this isn't how it works. It's determined second by second throughout the match, nothing is pre-determined.

I call BS. I've reloaded saves pretty frequently after 'weird' events and find another negative event gets swapped in 99.9% of the time.

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I do not tink there are scripted Elements in the strict sense of the meaning but you can see patterns happen that indicate that some variables are adjusted wilfully under specificaly given circumstances...

Edited by Etebaer

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1 hour ago, Etebaer said:

I do not tink there are scripted Elements in the strict sense of the meaning but you can see patterns happen that indicate that some variables are adjusted wilfully under specificaly given circumstances...

The ME will Always produce Patterns as it's a Computer Code, 0s and 1s, trying to ape a Football game. 

The run of Play in Matches will Always produce Patterns as the AI dynamic match Management is a Computer Code (AI Managers being 0-1 down with Little time to go going all out attack; AI Managers reacting to reputations of Teams rather than what is specifically going on in a particular match, e.g. 2nd Season/2nd half of the Season Syndrome as more Teams Play defensive Football, Content with a draw). 

The visuals will Always produce Patterns as the way Players move and tackle and shoot is set by a finite set of Motion captured animations.

The guy with the higher pace won't Always win the run for the ball, as he may have been engaged into lots of running the Five minutes before already; and his work rate Ranking in the specific sequence may be low. (Taken from SI staff cues throughout the years how Things are simulated



And even that guy with Long shot 1 will produce screamers, as the game exclusively aims to simulate Footballers, not Pub Team Players. (Taken from similar SI staff cues).

Edited by Svenc

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5 hours ago, cwc1 said:

I call BS. 

Hmmm, who to believe....the company that have coded this game for years, or a random poster on the internet. 

It's a toughie. 

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33 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Hmmm, who to believe....the company that have coded this game for years, or a random poster on the internet. 

It's a toughie. 

He's correct that the game can screw you in the sense that even if you get everything "Right", the probability of **** occuring will never drop near to 0%. Actually, it shouldn't. At all. 


Injuries? Being a Football Player is an intense physical activity, daily. The Risk of an injury shouldn't ever even Approach the 0%, so ****'s gonna happen. If unlucky, in sequence. Go ask Pep who was in the injury rut three Seasons in a row back at Bayern; even after replacing the head physio.

Matches? Football is a Sports in which Teams Play fairly well and can't find a win for weeks (Klopp's last Season at Dortmund). It's also a Sports in which sides lose to two unlikely wonder strikes whilst their Forward puts ten balls into the OP's keeper chest the one week, and then go on to win 7-2 at Spurs the other, as every other shot goes in. If the game wouldn't replicate that some, it were a massively failure as a Simulation.

Apart of that, gonna Quote myself (sorry). :D 
 

 

 

Edited by Svenc

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+1 for use of the term "flabbergasted" :D.

Anyway, here's something recent from SI about how matches are played out:

 

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3 straight games I have conceded in the 94th minute.

Three

games

in

a

row

 

So I think the discussion is over and we should kindly ask the developers to let us turn on or off 'scripted campaign mode' using the in game editor.

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10 minutes ago, hefewe1zen said:

So I think the discussion is over and we should kindly ask the developers to let us turn on or off 'scripted campaign mode' using the in game editor.

As there's no such thing, there's nothing to turn off. I would suggest either trying to close out games or improve how you're trying to close out games. If you want advice, the tactics forum will always be willing to help.

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14 hours ago, Arsenal02071 said:

After my first season with AZ in which I had a 70% or so win percentage and got sacked for one bad result near the end

I'd be more concerned with this. Sacked for one bad result and with 70% wins?  Aren't AZ a mid table team?  Get this logged as a bug, the sackings are too crazy in FM20!

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2 minutes ago, priority76 said:

I'd be more concerned with this. Sacked for one bad result and with 70% wins?  Aren't AZ a mid table team?  Get this logged as a bug, the sackings are too crazy in FM20!

There's an issue with Club VIsion under review where managers can get sacked, undeservedly so. 

@Arsenal02071 if you do have a save game from just before being sacked, it may be worth posting yours in the bugs forum too. The more examples, the better.

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32 minutes ago, hefewe1zen said:

3 straight games I have conceded in the 94th minute.

Three

games

in

a

row

 

I've just finished a game where I was 4-0 up away from home after 88 minutes. Finished 4-3.  This after the previous game where I was 2-0 up going into injury time and it finished 2-2. It's frustrating losing late goals, but it happens. In the 4-3 game, I put on an inexperienced left back for the last 5 minutes to give him some game time, and 2 of their 3 goals came from that side, it's the chance you take. 

By the way, it's not scripted. But I suspect you know this anyway. 

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4 hours ago, herne79 said:

+1 for use of the term "flabbergasted" :D.

Anyway, here's something recent from SI about how matches are played out:

 

How then can you tell the pre editor that you can always have 3 certain teams finish on top. Is not this then scripted . If I choose 3 teams to finish in the top 3 say Man city , Liverpool and Burnley and I am managing Leicester how am I suppose to beat those 3 teams ??? . I probably cant because its scripted that those 3 finish 1 ,2 and 3

 

 

54609715_script1.thumb.png.e0a9adf7064db0e8ba9963604a17b52e.png724028772_script2.thumb.png.49bf2687ef93ceda2f2bbced63fb0820.png

 

 

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48 minutes ago, prot651 said:

How then can you tell the pre editor that you can always have 3 certain teams finish on top. Is not this then scripted . If I choose 3 teams to finish in the top 3 say Man city , Liverpool and Burnley and I am managing Leicester how am I suppose to beat those 3 teams ??? . I probably cant because its scripted that those 3 finish 1 ,2 and 3

 

 

54609715_script1.thumb.png.e0a9adf7064db0e8ba9963604a17b52e.png724028772_script2.thumb.png.49bf2687ef93ceda2f2bbced63fb0820.png

 

 

I've never used the editor, but that looks like adding historical data for PAST seasons.

I'll repeat - there isn't scripting (as in pre-determined outcomes) in FM.

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19 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I've never used the editor, but that looks like adding historical data for PAST seasons.

I'll repeat - there isn't scripting (as in pre-determined outcomes) in FM.

Yep, those are for historic seasons, not setting which team will come where in the next season. I mean, I've not seen Burnley play that well in the 2019/20 season in anyone's screenshots.

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15 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Oh, @prot651, you're in the 'HISTORY' section of the editor. :ackter:

Doh !!!!!  lol So do you know what purpose this is for then … As I ran the comp and they finished 15 , 11 , 7 but click on history and they finished 1 , 2 and 3 . 

So what purpose does this serve ???

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Just now, prot651 said:

Doh !!!!!  lol So do you know what purpose this is for then … As I ran the comp and they finished 15 , 11 , 7 but click on history and they finished 1 , 2 and 3 . 

So what purpose does this serve ???

Maybe it changes who is in Europe in the first season or something? Or it might just be for changing history for cosmetic purposes? No idea, I've barely ever used the editor. I don't think I'd ever use that however, seems kinda pointless. 

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42 minutes ago, prot651 said:

Doh !!!!!  lol So do you know what purpose this is for then … As I ran the comp and they finished 15 , 11 , 7 but click on history and they finished 1 , 2 and 3 . 

So what purpose does this serve ???

To give records of historical seasons of course, what else would it be there for?

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See, in FM19 I had a couple of campaigns in Peru where I've won due to bizarre last day defeats by in-form opponents who had looked like title certainties three games earlier. And I had a thrilling last day in the 3. Bundesliga where I was given the last automatic promotion spot by a late turnaround in the other game involving players I'd managed in previous incarnations of FM. Then again, I've also won the Bundesliga 2 and the Championship by margins that were so wide it was boring, so maybe they forgot to script stuff then, or more realistically maybe stuff just happens and maybe I was a little bit better those seasons 

Edited by enigmatic

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Only things I would deem into scripting land is first season transfers. When i get time later in end of year I might run some test. Seeing Arkadiusz Milik(59mil trasnfer if i remember correctly) join Liverpool every save + a left back I cant remember his name on the spot. Deulofeu to United would be other.

But this has been almost every FM that some clubs will sign certain players no mater what.

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4 minutes ago, saihtam said:

Only things I would deem into scripting land is first season transfers. When i get time later in end of year I might run some test. Seeing Arkadiusz Milik(59mil trasnfer if i remember correctly) join Liverpool every save + a left back I cant remember his name on the spot. Deulofeu to United would be other.

But this has been almost every FM that some clubs will sign certain players no mater what.

Not scripting...   first season, you have the same manager, with the same tendencies for players, with the same expectations, so they will always naturally want to sign the same type of player every time, and because its the first season, obviously players always have the same stats and attributes, so the list of players that manager will want to sign is always going to be the same...

 

obvious really

 

You will see transfer start to vary after first season  because team expections, managers stats and tendencies and players all change as seasons go by so naturally transfers will too..

 

If we went back in time and re run real life, do you think a manager will change his miund on which player he needs if his team is exactly the same as last time you ran real life back?

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3 hours ago, forameuss said:

To give records of historical seasons of course, what else would it be there for?

No you don't understand . In the league they did not finish 1,2,and 3 yet in the history tab they did

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21 minutes ago, prot651 said:

No you don't understand . In the league they did not finish 1,2,and 3 yet in the history tab they did

...am I being whooshed?

The whole point is to show those finishes historically.

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19 minutes ago, forameuss said:

...am I being whooshed?

The whole point is to show those finishes historically.

? Am I the only one who doesn't get it :onmehead:

Why show 3 teams finishing historically if they didn't ?  Why show Burnley, Southampton and Watford  finishing 1,2 and 3 if when viewing the league it was Man City , Man United and Tottenham

Whats the purpose in this is my question ? Hence the scripting question

 

 

 

2013943465_England1.thumb.png.c4ee3ed097f03377f944f4d433e47982.png1211963570_england2.thumb.png.1b83c7093f494b4ef1b26e2427235a5c.png

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It's to generate past records. You are using it for the future, I guess the two modules are not articulated or the edited info override the true infos (most likely).

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1 hour ago, felipencntst said:

It's to generate past records. You are using it for the future, I guess the two modules are not articulated or the edited info override the true infos (most likely).

It's either that or all the super tacticians with their "press continue and see Watford competing for the top immediately" downloads are soon out of a Job. ;) 

Since Nothing in the Editor can "determine" the Outcome of a simulated league like that, and the league table is de facto the result of a Simulation (either simple one in the quick sim, or ME generated one with the competition set to full Details), it's likely your take though.

Edited by Svenc

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@Arsenal02071

Whilst not scripted, I do think they've made tweaks to the match engine this year that somehow increase the probability of goals in added on time and in particular games after the allotted 'minimum', which then in turn is likely why they've written in new press conference questions about the amount of added on time.

In previous iterations of the game you almost never saw goals in the very last minute of allotted time. You knew with almost complete certainly in 99.999% of games that if 3 minutes had been added on and you saw some action starting 92:45 that it was just going to be a "highlight" for the final whistle. People had commented about it, they've clearly reacted to try and make the game less predictable and more "realistic."

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Finners said:

@Arsenal02071

Whilst not scripted, I do think they've made tweaks to the match engine this year that somehow increase the probability of goals in added on time and in particular games after the allotted 'minimum', which then in turn is likely why they've written in new press conference questions about the amount of added on time.

In previous iterations of the game you almost never saw goals in the very last minute of allotted time. You knew with almost complete certainly in 99.999% of games that if 3 minutes had been added on and you saw some action starting 92:45 that it was just going to be a "highlight" for the final whistle. People had commented about it, they've clearly reacted to try and make the game less predictable and more "realistic."

tbf I've had games turned around by two injury time goals on previous incarnations of FM

But I think the time added on was previously too short/inflexible, the introduction VAR adds more time on to some matches as IRL, and it's possible they've also tweaked the AI managers to be a bit more aggressive in chasing late goals. I'm not sure the sophistication of timewasting in the match engine has caught up.

 

8 hours ago, prot651 said:

? Am I the only one who doesn't get it :onmehead:

Why show 3 teams finishing historically if they didn't ?  Why show Burnley, Southampton and Watford  finishing 1,2 and 3 if when viewing the league it was Man City , Man United and Tottenham

Whats the purpose in this is my question ? Hence the scripting question

 

 

2013943465_England1.thumb.png.c4ee3ed097f03377f944f4d433e47982.png1211963570_england2.thumb.png.1b83c7093f494b4ef1b26e2427235a5c.png

This isn't rocket science. They put a history editor to allow you to edit the history as it appears on that screen. They didn't anticipate people playing about with the history editor to edit how future years appear on that screen, and therefore didn't write code to stop people editing the future as it appears on this screen.

None of this has anything to do with 'scripting' match results, it's just nobody's written any special user interface code to stop people generating silly data in editors.

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On 01/12/2019 at 00:08, Arsenal02071 said:

Yeah I understand obviously that making that change right at the end carries some risk with it, but it felt sensible to me to just sit in for the very last moments and not break forward and open up unnecessarily.

I was more just flabbergasted that the referee decided to add on two minutes that shouldn't have existed and that's what lost it for me. 

People do not get this in real life either but it is specifically a MINIMUM of x minutes to be added, Not at most x amount to be added. Everything that happens after the board goes up affects how long is added. Plus technically because of phrasing if the referee for example wanted to add 2 minutes 40 seconds on he would say a minimum of 2 minutes because he can't say 3 minutes then blow early

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On 01/12/2019 at 00:58, Arsenal02071 said:

Yeah by "scripted' in this context, I simply meant that there were so many coincidences that occurred at the same time which made it feel weird to me. Ajax happen to lose a match they never should have after going on like a 15 match winning streak, then I happen to concede a 95th minute equalizer which I almost never do, and then I happen to get asked a question directly about it afterwards which confirmed to me that the game on some level knows that me conceding in that way was total nonsense.

This is the kind of situations were "consistency" and "big match performance" are taking into account if you have players (talking about Ajax) that are dreadful in important matches, consistency and determination in lower grade this can happen... Learnt that the hard way many times. Basically your players **** the bed in the worst moments!

I also feel that the RNG seed is higher in important games, but this is purely subjective.

Edited by Sharkn20

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5 hours ago, enigmatic said:

tbf I've had games turned around by two injury time goals on previous incarnations of FM

But I think the time added on was previously too short/inflexible, the introduction VAR adds more time on to some matches as IRL, and it's possible they've also tweaked the AI managers to be a bit more aggressive in chasing late goals. I'm not sure the sophistication of timewasting in the match engine has caught up.

 

This isn't rocket science. They put a history editor to allow you to edit the history as it appears on that screen. They didn't anticipate people playing about with the history editor to edit how future years appear on that screen, and therefore didn't write code to stop people editing the future as it appears on this screen.

None of this has anything to do with 'scripting' match results, it's just nobody's written any special user interface code to stop people generating silly data in editors.

Missed the point .. 

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5 hours ago, prot651 said:

Missed the point .. 

What exactly is your point??? i'm trying to get it myself and I still have no idea? Did we miss your point on the history issue or something else? What aren't you happy with exactly?

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3 hours ago, Welshace said:

What exactly is your point??? i'm trying to get it myself and I still have no idea? Did we miss your point on the history issue or something else? What aren't you happy with exactly?

Whats the point in having a history of the top 3 winning teams ( by default ) if they did not finish in the top 3 . What purpose does it serve ? They don't qualify for anything . Its there for what reason

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10 minutes ago, prot651 said:

Whats the point in having a history of the top 3 winning teams ( by default ) if they did not finish in the top 3 . What purpose does it serve ? They don't qualify for anything . Its there for what reason

Right...  so when you use the editor.. you can use it to change the history of an existing league or even a new league... the point of the feature is to create a past history of previous seasons where teams of your choice won the league.. its creating a history.. a story, a narrative...

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3 hours ago, prot651 said:

Whats the point in having a history of the top 3 winning teams ( by default ) if they did not finish in the top 3 . What purpose does it serve ? They don't qualify for anything . Its there for what reason

The point is that it would be especially useful if you were creating a new competition, e.g. adding in real leagues that don't come in the original boxed games. You can then add the history of that competition, adding the historical 1st 2nd and 3rd. The only purpose it serves is to give you a more rounded picture of that competition - it is cosmetic only  - it doesn't affect the game play in any way...

It ISNT meant to be used to add future 1st 2nd and 3rd places. But, because you have done that in the editor it is over-riding the teams that actually finished in those positions in your game, butonly on that history screen. I bet you that the teams that got into Europe the following year were the ones that actually won the league in your game, not the ones you added in the editor (i.e. NOT Burnley, Southampton and Watford).

I dont think I can make it any clearer than that for you. :thup:

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The only thing i don;t like is when teams go very attacking in the final 10 minutes and suddenly transform into world class teams and have 10 shots on goals in 10 minutes. It's really strange they are so effective at very attacking football.

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2 hours ago, andu1 said:

The only thing i don;t like is when teams go very attacking in the final 10 minutes and suddenly transform into world class teams and have 10 shots on goals in 10 minutes. It's really strange they are so effective at very attacking football.

Teams who are behind in the last period of a match will generally switch to a more aggressive attacking tactic. The trick is trying to find a balanced, defensive one to counter this. It's not a trick I've been able to find however, as I'm losing crazy amounts of goals in the last 5-10 mins of matches. More thinking needed. 

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