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thejay

If you think the current fm20 match engine is great, post your tactics

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Here's my current Hibs tactic on FM Classic at the moment. I'm not all that happy with it at the moment, the team is generally dominating games (other than against the Old Firm), but are struggling to score goals. I put both wide players to IF on attack to see if I could see this 'side netting' issue, but I still don't. 

My striker is pretty good at finishing 1v1s, and I've seen a number of lovely through balls from my AP. 

There's something missing though, I need to try and create better chances. The good thing about FMC is that there's no tactical familiarity so I can chop and change at will. I like the shape of the team, and they play in a style I like, but I think the tactic might be a bit too aggressive. I'm leaning towards lowering the tempo and having more support duties up front. The squad is also very thin, and I need about 4-5 players to really make it work. I'm really enjoying watching the matches though, engine is top notch for me so far. 

image.thumb.png.8d07510b0119003c5d51c6e0aa87b5b2.png

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thats not really a possession style tactic, its high pressing play forward as fast as possible .

 

Ifs on attack makes them basically exempt from defending and tracking the fullback.

 

Do you dominate possession with that tactic? 

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Just now, thejay said:

thats not really a possession style tactic, its high pressing play forward as fast as possible .

 

Ifs on attack makes them basically exempt from defending and tracking the fullback.

 

Do you dominate possession with that tactic? 

I've not checked and I've closed the game down now, but from what i see, I have most of the possession in games I would expect to have. I'll load it up again later and check. My main save on the full game is more possession based, I'll show that too when I get back home, might also upload some videos of them in action. 

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vor 3 Minuten schrieb Dagenham_Dave:

I've not checked and I've closed the game down now, but from what i see, I have most of the possession in games I would expect to have. I'll load it up again later and check. My main save on the full game is more possession based, I'll show that too when I get back home, might also upload some videos of them in action. 

Ok thanks .

Your tactic should not make sense when trying to keep the ball but maybe this is the way to go in fm20 when you want to control the game

Edited by thejay

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I'm not seeing too many of these side netting shots. On the demo so no idea if that's the current match engine.

Untitled-1.jpg

FB + WB = Shoot less often

AF + W + IF + AP = Close Down More

 

Untitled-2.jpg

 

Edited by Tiger666

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vor 5 Minuten schrieb herne79:

@thejay  If you are wanting to understand possession based systems, I wrote extensively about that for FM19 (here, read the posts highlighted in blue).  Nothing has changed for FM20 which would have a significant impact on those principles discussed.

I have no problems keeping the ball but create chances from it because players don't seem to pass to the right players, speed up passing when they should or move or the right spaces. 

 

Passing is slow and ponderous, options are not seen despite having ages of time and space.

 

Decision making seems off, players don't seem to know when to dribble, when to pass and when to shoot and when to cross.

 

Like I said there are various opinions on the match engine with people claiming different things. 

 

I just want to see the tactics from players who are satisfied or can get their systems to work, espsically passing possession approaches. 

Edited by thejay

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vor 4 Minuten schrieb Tiger666:

I'm not seeing too many of these side netting shots. On the demo so no idea if that's the current match engine.

Untitled-1.jpg

FB + WB = Shoot less often

AF + W + IF + AP = Close Down More

 

Untitled-2.jpg

 

What kind of goals do you score normally which are not on counters?

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18 minutes ago, thejay said:

What kind of goals do you score normally which are not on counters?

All kinds, wouldn't say there's one particular goal I see a lot of. Would have to analyse it properly when I get home to see.

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44 minutes ago, thejay said:

I just want to see the tactics from players who are satisfied or can get their systems to work, espsically passing possession approaches.

Which is in that thread I linked.  However as you replied just 4 minutes after me giving you the link I'm afraid you really haven't read it all thoroughly or understood it.  I advised you to read all of the blue highlighted posts and there are quite a few spread over 2 or 3 pages, so grab a coffee and pull up a chair :).

Alternatively you could also read this which I've also used in FM20 (with one or two minor tweaks) to similar effect which doesn't have any tactical instructions at all.

4 minutes ago, Vali184 said:

So basically everyone is gegenpressing.

Nope.

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3 minutes ago, Vali184 said:

So basically everyone is gegenpressing.

I've only just changed to those instructions over my last few matches. I'm losing a few late goals, which is probably why. I don't use gegenpress very often, and I'll probably ditch it to be honest

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Not a possession style tactic.
It's basically created to attack on the wings but with having the possibility of a variety of attacks.

217464233_Merknad2019-11-27142206.thumb.jpg.a3020e78791071d4845904390444e9e3.jpg

My AF has scored 33 goals in 54 games (all comps).
My left Winger has scored 15.
While the top assisters are my CMs and right Winger.

Only PIs are:
CDs - Shorter passing.
DL - Dribble less.

I don't really see the shots in the side netting on a regular basis (i have seen them but nothing out of the ordinary).
I do see a great variety of goals. Long shots don't happen very often.

Am playing with Knockbreda in the 2nd tier.
It's my 2nd season and i ended up 4th in the 1st season. Finished 4th again this 2nd season.
Won the Steel & Sons cup in this season.
Won the Irish League Cup this seaon.
In the Intermediate Cup final this season.

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2 minutes ago, Vali184 said:

I'm waiting until someone posts a successful counter attacking tactic.

 

442.jpg

Well, everyone is certainly not using gegenpressing :brock:

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17 minutes ago, Vali184 said:

I'm waiting until someone posts a successful counter attacking tactic.

 

Is there such a thing? Is there a team in world football who has an actual 'counter attacking tactic'?  I mean, there are teams who are good at counter attacking (Leicester in their PL winning season for example), and play to those strengths. But any tactic at its heart is designed to score more goals than the opposition. Even a tactic that concentrates on defence more than attack is still trying to find a way to win. 

This is one of the reasons I'm glad SI changed that mentality from 'counter' to 'cautious', it was the most badly named mentality they ever had. All teams counter attack to some degree. 

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2 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Is there such a thing? Is there a team in world football who has an actual 'counter attacking tactic'?  I mean, there are teams who are good at counter attacking (Leicester in their PL winning season for example), and play to those strengths. But any tactic at its heart is designed to score more goals than the opposition. Even a tactic that concentrates on defence more than attack is still trying to find a way to win. 

This is one of the reasons I'm glad SI changed that mentality from 'counter' to 'cautious', it was the most badly named mentality they ever had. All teams counter attack to some degree. 

You know what I meant. When I talk about counter attacking, I don't talk about low mentalities.

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5 minutes ago, Vali184 said:

You know what I meant. When I talk about counter attacking, I don't talk about low mentalities.

And yet that's exactly what the Counter/cautious mentality can be for.  There are of course other ways of doing it but low mentalities can be just as valid for counter attacking strategies as others.  And it can be precisely how people get FM'd - the AI plays cautiously on a low mentality and catches out a human manager who over commits.

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I have created a tactic that works for how I want to play football.  It works very well.  It spreads out the defense which lets my players create chances.

 

4141formation1.thumb.jpg.86fa5a51d52c5d98dc3614cde17cf478.jpg

 

- You don't need to Play out of the defense when you have Ball Playing Defenders.

- I'm using Shorter Passing, Overlaps on both sides, Attacking Fullbacks, a creative and amazing Defensive Playmaker, Pogba who does Pogba things, and I CREATE CHANCES.

 

There is no playing up through the middle where your shots are bouncing off the players as they throw themselves into the path of shots.  It's about spreading out a defense and making them thin and then striking them where it hurts.

 

Edited by extremeskins04

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I fluked a counter tactic last year when I switched up to attacking, I didn't even have counter on, I'd never seen us counter attack so much, if we won the ball back in our half & it was on, we'd snap, launching players forward & moving the ball at pace. Get the full commentary too acknowledging it  

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I don’t think the current match engine is great, but I am having a lot of success.  This is the first FM where the Raumdeuter role is working great for me.  I play a 4-3-3 (4-1-2-2-1) with a Wide Target Man and Raumdeuter who are both my top scorers.  Central forwards don’t seem to work as productively for me in this FM, and experimenting with different ones hasn’t changed the results much because central passing seems nerfed so the wide men end up being the main scorers.  They don’t pass to the forward even if he is wide open and the forward never scores easy 1v1s.  Tempted to just go strikerless like FM17.

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1 hour ago, Vali184 said:

So basically everyone is gegenpressing.

I'm playing a direct 4-1-4-1 - with "Regroup" and not "Counter-Press" - and I'm also not using wingbacks, which seem pretty common.  Play on cautious or balanced - only my striker, inverted left winger and one central midfielder on attack.  I'm playing as a poor team in a poor (San Marino) league, so didn't feel we were even remotely good enough to counter-press - even though I'd probably get good results if we did.  Qualified for Group 1 of the league and hopefully going to make the Champions Playoffs (weird league system in San Marino) - and my striker is my top scorer.  Will try to remember to post when I get home.

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Yea Gegenpressing is pretty easy to engage.  

It's basically just counter press instead of regroup, high tempo and pressure attacking.  You can do anything else you want to in your instructions but those are the main aspects.

Fluid Counter Attacking beats Gegenpressing though.  Man City, Liverpool and Arsenal will switch up on you in the middle of a match to counter attacking when they see you're running a Gegenpress.  I've seen it happen many times where I'm doing okay against them, and then boom all of sudden they're getting tons of chances and counters on me leaving me extremely vulnerable.

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1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

I fluked a counter tactic last year when I switched up to attacking, I didn't even have counter on, I'd never seen us counter attack so much, if we won the ball back in our half & it was on, we'd snap, launching players forward & moving the ball at pace. Get the full commentary too acknowledging it  

Did the same when I tried to replicate Leicester on 2016. That said, that was helped a Little by the AI's set piece stuff. On the Occasion they wouldn't protect the attacking Corner as early as 15 mins in, lol. Longer term they'd Play far more cautious too, as the success was there. 1st in the tables by mid Season, tonked all the stupidly aggressive big dogs, and had an average pass completion of like 65% even lower than Leicester had. I've probably already posted that I don't mind conceding a lot of SOT on this series (set pieces, spoiler spoiler spoiler)

XvbF1vS.jpgsOLwprt.jpg

coh2t5N.jpgnbhpdCn.jpg

 

PS: Shots and Possession my azz. If there is one stat that at all Shows how deadly this was, it's the percentages of the shots that went on target in some of the above matches…. every interception being dangerous. 

Edited by Svenc

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Here's mine. In short, it's an attacking formation that keeps the Fbs out wide and the IWs narrower (this seems to have cut down the side netting shots somewhat). The DLP and BWM work well together and the SS/DLF combo upfront is getting goals.

Still a couple of issue to iron out but, we're currently top of League 2 with 41 games played- so overall I'm quite happy.

StreamlineModerne.jpg

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I just plug and play the dynamic (fluid?) counter preset style with an 433 (4-1-2-2-1) and am not deluded. We dont create many shots, but we have enough counter opportunities to win a lot of games 1-0 or 2-1 or something. Pretty much EXACTLY what I expect from a defensively stable counter attacking tactic. Goals are from all varieties, by the way: 1on1s, second opportunity shots from outside the box, crosses, set pieces...

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3 hours ago, thejay said:

I am ingeniously interested, especially possession style tactics.

Please post them here 

The match engine is a mess but I see some nice football from this including a couple of absolute hammerings with high possession aswell.

Have the central AP get forward further and he feeds off short passes around the box until there's an opening, the rpm acts as a pivot for attacks down the right,make him an attacking mezzala if you need an extra man to push up and if he's good in the air he'll get something on crosses from the left back because they always go passed the striker.  Have the AP on the left take more risks and sit narrower.

Defend narrower if your playing against 2 up top.

Always changing it during the season and needs a few changes during games depending on the opposition. Can have games where you end up with too many long shots and not a lot of clear chances.

Tactic Possession.jpg

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Guess I'm bucking the trend a little by not using super-aggressive pressing. I've been playing around with space compression to draw opposing teams out and hurting them in transition, as opposed to my more usual approach of camping in the opposition half until there's an opening. 


fm-tactics.png

fm-results.png

Not that I think the current ME is amazing (yet). My team is ranked fairly low in chances created and my top scorer is my left midfielder. Better forward movement and forward play would make this a more prolific approach but for now it's functional and getting the results. 

Edited by JEinchy

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55 minutes ago, noikeee said:

So basically nobody is overacheiving with any lower mentalities than balanced

It looks like the usual, throw the top players on attack duties that should rip the team apart but actually just overwhelms the opposition.

 

FWIW, on the beta I went fifteen games with Manchester United, only conceding one goal and being top of the league with a 4-4-1-1 on Balanced, so it is doable to 'overachieve' as such, but I feel that on the lower mentalities it can be tougher this time around to get opportunities as the AI can be fairly defensive at times and you need some oomph to get the ball back. One of the easier ways of doing so is via the positive/aggressive mentalities, though I'm sure it is doable with more cautious mentalities as well.

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I don't know.  I get punished when I use high pressure Attacking mentalities against tougher teams.  I have to drop to cautious and hope for them to make a mistake.  There's only 2 maybe 3 teams that I need to do this for, the rest basically it's just overwhelming them.

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5 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Here's my current Hibs tactic on FM Classic at the moment. I'm not all that happy with it at the moment, the team is generally dominating games (other than against the Old Firm), but are struggling to score goals. I put both wide players to IF on attack to see if I could see this 'side netting' issue, but I still don't. 

My striker is pretty good at finishing 1v1s, and I've seen a number of lovely through balls from my AP. 

There's something missing though, I need to try and create better chances. The good thing about FMC is that there's no tactical familiarity so I can chop and change at will. I like the shape of the team, and they play in a style I like, but I think the tactic might be a bit too aggressive. I'm leaning towards lowering the tempo and having more support duties up front. The squad is also very thin, and I need about 4-5 players to really make it work. I'm really enjoying watching the matches though, engine is top notch for me so far. 

image.thumb.png.8d07510b0119003c5d51c6e0aa87b5b2.png

This is very close to what I'm running as well. I put emphasis on Chance Creation and Chance Conversion in training weekly and my team has been scoring around 2.5 goals a game.

Edited by rain94

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8 minutes ago, rain94 said:

I put emphasis on Chance Creation and Chance Conversion in training weekly and my team has been scoring around 2.5 goals a game.

I'm starting to think this is one of the things that I'm missing, which annoys me because I have absolutely no interest in having to set up training.

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Another thing that is striking me from so many of these tactics is they have a lone poacher or lone advanced forward, and no real nearby support, other than pretty wide wingers/IFs (mostly also on attack!). On real-life footballing theory this is a bad idea that shouldn't work, but apparently it works on this FM.

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2 minutes ago, noikeee said:

I'm starting to think this is one of the things that I'm missing, which annoys me because I have absolutely no interest in having to set up training.

Yea definitely. It's a little daunting to get into but a whole lot of fun once you're comfortable with it. I skipped training all of FM19 but in FM20 I wanted to dive a little into it. Start slow, very slow. Let your Assman or another coach handle the training, but add a couple of ES (Extra sessions) weekly. You can do it when the notification pops up in your inbox. No need to overthink it. If you feel your defense is slacking, then add a couple of defence-related sessions to your training. If you feel you have been conceding during corners, then concentrate on that.  Check out the guide that @Seb Wassell posted yesterday for a primer. 

 

 

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Does anyone see any improvements as team and player tactical familiarity improves? Judging a tactical system with and without a good level of familiarity should be different, no?

Edited by Jibby123

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Just now, Jibby123 said:

Does anyone see any improvements as team and player tactical familiarity improves? Judging a tactical system without and without a good level of familiarity should be different, no?

100% absolutely

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36 minutes ago, rain94 said:

This is very close to what I'm running as well. I put emphasis on Chance Creation and Chance Conversion in training weekly and my team has been scoring around 2.5 goals a game.

Yes, I'm now regretting starting this save on classic mode for that very reason. I'm not able to influence training in that way. :(

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1 hour ago, Jibby123 said:

Does anyone see any improvements as team and player tactical familiarity improves? Judging a tactical system with and without a good level of familiarity should be different, no?

Definitely 100% till the first snow starts to fall when Winter is Coming, then I need to start paying attention to complacency, morale and some of the opposition playing differently against me. Playing in the lower league, we're overachieving with a very defensively set up 442DM played on a standard line of engagement. I am just loving 2 striker systems on FM20 atm, even the 4312 looks good atm.

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Very pleased with how we are playing, how we are scoring (Salah in top with 17 goals after 21 games) and how everything is looking. No PIs

image.thumb.png.9e17dce159e9f4e2f7d683e0b01e6844.png

image.thumb.png.e45738d34d3dd887681b9a0a23d19bde.png

image.thumb.png.e1f13b4d573da9b9e82714c16f72c028.png

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3 hours ago, noikeee said:

Also everyone who is doing well is playing higher lines, because on this ME it appears that dropping deep is suicidal, the AI will kill you by long shots or death by a thousand papercuts by cornering you around your area for too long until something sticks. High pressing then stacks up upon this, to prevent long balls over the top. 

Said AI doesn't appear to have gotten the message.

Insert perennial "AI scores with first shots on target whilst I Need 20" rants whenever it successfully sits Deep to spoil. Must be cheating... :rolleyes: :mad:
 

https://community.sigames.com/topic/505492-players-seem-to-be-actively-trying-to-miss/

 

Edited by Svenc

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Well, I altered my tactic for the past four games because I felt I was losing control of games a lot of the time so if you like possession:

20191127204658_1.thumb.jpg.eb16b4638956e735cfe638d3137184bf.jpg20191127204637_1.thumb.jpg.4d6b45016b21df26148d159ef3755765.jpg20191127204625_1.thumb.jpg.f974e172596d3efe0434b0e4420e3701.jpg20191127204648_1.thumb.jpg.e7801b58b463394df48f3171662c4f58.jpg20191127204437_1.thumb.jpg.f34be9751b8fc45b95ac0b1541a8e1d9.jpg

 

It's not sexy or attractive but it does very well in holding the ball and waiting for the right opportunity, which usually comes. The only thing I'm still playing with is the striker role. I also have the BWM on hold position and tend to sometimes go with the TI stick to positions because my players have a tendency to occupy the same spaces otherwise.

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46 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Said AI doesn't appear to have gotten the message.

Insert perennial "AI scores with first shots on target whilst I Need 20" rants whenever it successfully sits Deep to spoil. Must be cheating... :rolleyes: :mad:
 

https://community.sigames.com/topic/505492-players-seem-to-be-actively-trying-to-miss/

 

Not sure what's your point or if you're conflating me with the people that think the AI cheats the game or is playing by a different rule set than the human manager. 

All I'm saying is in the current engine playing deep generally doesn't appear to be very safe, and is prone to conceding goals. Whether some human managers can't score goals against deep AI setups, I don't know because I'm not every human manager playing FM. I find it pretty easy to generate goals actually, even against deep AI sides, the really hard trick is remaining stable whilst doing so. I also find it harder to play against AI sides that play attacking. 

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Alright. I have been using 3 tactics semi regularly. With the proviso that I make changes during matches frequently to counter what the AI and take advantage of weaknesses I spot in the AI for all of them. 

1. Counter pressing possession.

670750031_possessionbasedpressing.thumb.png.a2431384ecc92edcef842e31c8d19686.png

I average over 55% possession. I score over 2 goals a game. I am unbeaten with Benfica for half a season, excluding a UCL loss to Chelsea. 

2. Counter attacking.

1672628075_counterattacking.thumb.png.9e58adde5d0352c4441c05c0c77ab1e0.png

I use this against bigger sides. It is hit and miss, because it is used against teams I expect to lose against. I have pulled off several shocks using this using Hamburg.

3. Lower league direct attacking.

1197142129_Directlowleague.thumb.png.d57489a3896d3196e435c6fdc1c80cbd.png

This is what I am using in my journeyman save. My team is crap, so I invite them onto me and try to hit them quickly when they lose the ball. It is part counter and part hoofball. The team I have taken over were on a 13 game losing streak. This has turned them around. 

I want to note that none of these tactics will work all the time. In particular the first one, you have to watch what is happening and make changes for it to work well. It does not function well as is against teams with 2 DMCs, for example. I will watch what the AI does and make changes specifically designed to exploit them. The same goes for the others. FM20 seems to differ in that there are no obvious exploits this year. You have to think about what you are doing. If you want to play a game, you can tell me why I have chosen the roles, duties, and team instructions for each of these tactics, and I will tell you if you are right. 

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10 minutes ago, Obaaa said:

Should rename this thread the 'higher line of engagement, more urgent pressing style' thread

Ironically, the post above you has two tactics with a lower line of engagement and less pressing that seems to work well for the player.

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1 hour ago, noikeee said:

All I'm saying is in the current engine playing deep generally doesn't appear to be very safe, and is prone to conceding goals. 

All I was trying to say is in the current engine despite all there seems plenty of Frustration going around whenever the a sits Deep to spoil. Is' all. :D 

That said, all those Posts have taken to be cautious. They're typically vastly exaggerated -- and the users in Question oft are big time successfull regardless (even with tactics that should be punished far more oftenly if this was to be a realistic sim of football). They just can't take the odd Point drop on the chin, in particular if they had more shots, which is Bound to happen by Default if the AI Drops Deep to spoil. :D 

Edited by Svenc

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41 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

FM20 seems to differ in that there are no obvious exploits this year. You have to think about what you are doing. 

100% agree, which is why it's currently my favourite match engine of the series so far. 

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