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Booted up fm12 to see how far we have ( or haven't) evolved - match engine


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After being so disappointed in the current match engine I wanted to go back nearly 10 years and have a look at the state of the engine nearly 10 years ago. I wonder sometimes if I have a short memory and just like when you think you'd like to play old retro games. When you actually play them you then realise how bad they are really and how much we've evolved in gaming. 

However with fm I was pretty shocked that the match engine in fm12 is far better!! It looks so much nicer for starters. You have 2d and 2d classic. Having in just 2d looks lovely!! Why did they do away with the nice looking 2d graphics?? 

Onto the engine itself. The games play out so much more realistically and smoothly. Please have a go yourselves. Lovely variations on the goals. The finishing from strikers is crisp and clinical. It really is quite shocking how this seems to of gone backwards 10 years on. Obviously this is simply my opinion but I'm 99% confident the majority will agree if you give it a go yourselves. 

I just wanna say I have no agenda here. I am simply so gutted the latest version of this match engine feels so poor. This is literally the first time ever I've resorted to this 

Edited by El_sambo
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In my opinion this is a pretty ludicrous statement. I have played FM since the CM days and the match latest match engine offered in FM2020 is the best yet, particularly when it comes to goal variation and players actually being able to defend. Sure I have seen the infamous striker missing 1 on 1s and shots from stupid angles, but in the latest version of the ME occurrences of these are far fewer. 

If your opinion is that FM12's engine is better then fair enough, enjoy FM12 and don't bother with FM2020.

Edited by ChrisCo
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1 minute ago, CFuller said:

I never played FM12, but wasn't that the version where players could run through each other as if they were ghosts, thus making poachers incredibly overpowered?

You may not appreciate how far the ME has come in eight years, but I'd imagine many of us do. And if you truly believe with 99% certainty that the majority of us would prefer FM12 to FM20, then prepare to be very disappointed.

FM12 was that engine. You basically signed Carlos fierro, set him as poacher, went attacking and watched him score 50 goals a season. It played like fifa. 

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7 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

FM12 was that engine. You basically signed Carlos fierro, set him as poacher, went attacking and watched him score 50 goals a season. It played like fifa. 

And don't dare to try use a target man as players didn't score much, if at all, from headers.

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I literally just ran it for like 2 games so what you're all saying could well be true. 

But. Y point being is graphically it looks far better. Btw I have a very powerful pc and can run fm20 on full graphics. Fm12 match engine definitely looks by far more prettier! 

Then just watching the highlights play out. So much smoother. So much more variation then this current one that's been put out. Please just go and checkout one game. Put it in 2d ( not 2d classic) 

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32 minutes ago, El_sambo said:

But. Y point being is graphically it looks far better. Btw I have a very powerful pc and can run fm20 on full graphics. Fm12 match engine definitely looks by far more prettier! 

We're talking 2D here, right? As in circles moving around on a piece of green paper. Seems kinda limited in how it can look better or worse.

Got any pictures that you feel prove your point?

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He might be referring to the overall matchday package, that included full stadium background pictures (if desired) when not in highlights.

Cant remember 12 but pretty sure 2d classic didn’t have a huge grey border around the pitch.

Edited by sidslayer
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Just now, El_sambo said:

I just wanna say I have no agenda here.

So you say, I think you’re clearly a plant by SI to try to boost sales of FM12.

 

Just now, Baodan said:

I'm not sure what you're seeing as the big difference in beauty here

After being so disappointed by the removal of the old 2d classic, I’m quite surprised to think the FM20 2d looks better.

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I think you're all missing my point. I'm not saying that 12 is the godfather of all games. I simply wanted to go back nearly 10 years and see how far this game has evolved. If you take any other franchise 8-10 would he light years of difference. Now with just the aesthetics on the match engine alone. There was a 2d and a 2d classic. Why did they do away with this?? Just try it yourselves.. 2d on fm12 ( not 2d classic) looks better than todays. That's just one point I'm making 

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The representation of the match engine =/= the match engine. You also claimed the engine played the game in a more realistic and smooth way which is just not true. The sole fact that players back then could run through their opponents because there was no collision detection makes everything that comes afterward more realistic. 

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Yes I stand by that. Obviously it's an engine that has its faults but having played the 2 of them I genuinely think 12 looks a better product. 

Just go try it! Watch how the ball moves around. How a playmaker can slide a ball through to the striker. Who will go on and clinically and crisply Bury the ball. Watch how the net then ruffles. I'm not just making this up?? Why would I? 

I just picked 12 randomly. 13,14 and so on are probably even better than that ( I can't remember) but my point was I wanted to do a huge jump to see how much its evolved and in my opinion this 20 version is worse. And btw I loved 19 again it had its faults but I always wanted to go back and play more. This engine is shoddy. Every damn highlight. Full back. Shoot or pull back. Edge of area shots. 1v1 are pathetically in successful. It's do boring and predictable to watch. I literally stopped playing Saturday and have no desire to go back to it 

Edited by El_sambo
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6 hours ago, El_sambo said:

However with fm I was pretty shocked that the match engine in fm12 is far better!!

You are of course entitled to an opinion, but here you are wrong. As others have noted there were serious issues with the FM12 match engine. The most notable being no contact between players, so poachers just ghosted through people, making them dangerous. There is nothing that is so broken in the FM20 match engine. It is amazing the lengths people will go to in order to convince themselves that everything is the fault of a game and nothing is their own fault.

For the record, the current ME needs improvements in several areas. Just as the FM19 ME did at launch. Actually, the FM19 ME was worse at launch, with striker movement being iffy. I look forward to these issues being fixed, but this has not stopped me from enjoying the game as it is.

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54 minutes ago, El_sambo said:

Just go try it!

FM12 was the game I put the fewest amount of game hours into (around 500 odd). FM13 had a new match engine IIRC, and FM14 was the edition they finally got rid of those horrible sliders. 

I know it's all opinions, but if I had to list best-to-worst match engines from FM12 onwards, FM12 would be at the bottom for me. 

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7 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

FM12 was the game I put the fewest amount of game hours into (around 500 odd).

See this is the point. Considering you only put 500 hours in the game I bet you don't even remember how the game was. You are arguing here with people with 1500-2000 hours into it. 

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2 minutes ago, Sanel said:

See this is the point. Considering you only put 500 hours in the game I bet you don't even remember how the game was. You are arguing here with people with 1500-2000 hours into it. 

No, the fact that he put the least amount of hours in the game means that he stopped enjoying it fairly quickly. 

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In a general sense, it's absolutely fine to prefer 12 to any other edition.  From memory, it was fun.  Because winning IS fun.  It's easy to enjoy yourself when the game was very, very easy to beat.  

But if you're starting to go down a quality route, than it's demonstrably false to say that 12 is better from a match engine purpose.  You can't put opinion into that.  There is no "opinion" that can argue with the facts that there were considerable holes in the engine that could be ruthlessly exploited.  It's also demonstrably false that there has been no progression in the match engine since then.  Again, you can have all the opinions you like, it won't make that any fallacy any more true.

Aesthetically, it becomes a lot more subjective.  Until you start looking at other subjective opinions and telling them how wrong they are.  Which no-one would do, right?

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I had around 2,000 hours' playing time on FM13 - my favourite FM yet (note that I wrote favourite, not best).

It had the best FM match engine at the time, not least because the ghosting bug had been largely fixed, but did it have the best FM ME of all-time? Not even close.

For starters, FM13 was THE worst offender when it came to cross-shots that either hit the crossbar or went straight in the net. These were fairly common in the lower leagues and were much more scarce the higher up you went, but they were still annoying. Cross-shots were far less prevalent on FM19, and while I have seen one hit the bar on FM20, I've not yet read or heard any other complaints about their frequency.

Edited by CFuller
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8 minutes ago, Sanel said:

See this is the point. Considering you only put 500 hours in the game I bet you don't even remember how the game was. You are arguing here with people with 1500-2000 hours into it. 

Whatever way you wanna look at it, 500 hours is still a lot of time to invest in a game.
A lot of people have been banging on about how the older games were better and I personally think its because the games back then were much easier than it is now and didn’t require as much experimenting and testing to get the tactically side of the game right. 
My most memorable save was on fm14 but I would never say fm14  was the best game or match engine. Nostalgia plays a role in how people view the older games. 

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12 minutes ago, Sanel said:

See this is the point. Considering you only put 500 hours in the game I bet you don't even remember how the game was. You are arguing here with people with 1500-2000 hours into it. 

Yes that's right, putting in the amount of hours equivalent to around ten times the amount of hours in most other games gives me no basis to form an opinion on it. Do people make this stuff up as they go along? 

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1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Yes that's right, putting in the amount of hours equivalent to around ten times the amount of hours in most other games gives me no basis to form an opinion on it. Do people make this stuff up as they go along? 

If it doesn't fit your point, mash it into a shape that does.

3 minutes ago, Pattric_b said:

Whatever way you wanna look at it, 500 hours is still a lot of time to invest in a game.
A lot of people have been banging on about how the older games were better and I personally think its because the games back then were much easier than it is now and didn’t require as much experimenting and testing to get the tactically side of the game right. 
My most memorable save was on fm14 but I would never say fm14  was the best game or match engine. Nostalgia plays a role in how people view the older games. 

Probably accurate.  Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.

15 would probably end up being my "favourite" purely because of the save I had.  Because so much more goes into what is the "best" FM than sitting in a labcoat analysing pkm after pkm.  The best match engine has always been the most recent one from a technical standpoint, as none have had enough issues to overrule the improvements made.  

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8 years apart. Which one looks nicer?? Come on its a no brainer. 

This isn't just about aesthetics my whole point in this post was to see how far it's come in nearly 10 years. And I wanted to make sure I wasn't just remember things better than they actually were. Literally first time ever I'm so appauled by the state of current engine I personally find it unplayable. My results are decent and realistic. It's the repetitive dull nature in the way the matches play out is my gripe. 

Full back. Shoot or gut back. One on ones 99% miss so so dull and predictable. 

 

Plus yes.. I think it looks pretty crap for 2019 and I have graphics on full. I can't watch 3d never have as the animations are so cringe I prefer to use 2d and my imagination 

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9 hours ago, El_sambo said:

After being so disappointed in the current match engine I wanted to go back nearly 10 years and have a look at the state of the engine nearly 10 years ago. I wonder sometimes if I have a short memory and just like when you think you'd like to play old retro games. When you actually play them you then realise how bad they are really and how much we've evolved in gaming. 

However with fm I was pretty shocked that the match engine in fm12 is far better!! It looks so much nicer for starters. You have 2d and 2d classic. Having in just 2d looks lovely!! Why did they do away with the nice looking 2d graphics?? 

Onto the engine itself. The games play out so much more realistically and smoothly. Please have a go yourselves. Lovely variations on the goals. The finishing from strikers is crisp and clinical. It really is quite shocking how this seems to of gone backwards 10 years on. Obviously this is simply my opinion but I'm 99% confident the majority will agree if you give it a go yourselves. 

I just wanna say I have no agenda here. I am simply so gutted the latest version of this match engine feels so poor. This is literally the first time ever I've resorted to this 

All I play is FM12.

Messi at  his best! Ronaldo at his best! Neymar at his best!

It's a golden era of football and I just can't stop playing FM12.

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If it's just the match engine - I don't know and don't give a fiddles, for me the 3D matches were all about just a basic demo of the phase of play played out, I couldn't care less if it look realistic or not, or if a player just "ghosted" through another player - which I never really have seen to be honest and I've put in almost 7000 hours in FM12. 

For me, FM12 had the best UI and the best streamlined News items - it was far simpler and less cluttered. 

After FM12 the UI changed and to be honest it completely destroyed the game for me - hence I stick with what I like.

 

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I'm not. Going by the 20 feedback post on the forum there are soooo many people on there fuming with the state of the current engine. I just wanted to open people's eyes abit as I think we all become abit blind to it especially as there are no other alternative management games out there. I guess I've just snapped abit as the price has gone up 10 pounds this year for a product that I think personally has evolved very little of anything in ten years 

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It's a forum, people don't have to agree. I just wanted to put what I thought was a valid opinion across seeing as how many people are unhappy with the current version ( look at the 20 feedback post 38 pages deep) 

And if from the above screen shots you think 20 Looks better than the 12 shot. That is pure blind faith. Coz it clearly isn't 

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Just now, El_sambo said:

It's a forum, people don't have to agree. I just wanted to put what I thought was a valid opinion across seeing as how many people are unhappy with the current version ( look at the 20 feedback post 38 pages deep) 

And if from the above screen shots you think 20 Looks better than the 12 shot. That is pure blind faith. Coz it clearly isn't 

You put your opinion across in the first post. The rest is you trying to convince everyone else of your opinion. 

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2 minutes ago, El_sambo said:

And if from the above screen shots you think 20 Looks better than the 12 shot.

I thought this was about the match engine? Half this thread has been about the graphics, so not sure which you're referring to?

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Both!!! Jesus my whole point is over ten tears aesthetically and the engine itself. I think 1) it looks worse and 2) this current version is worse! 

Baring in mind I enjoyed 13,14,15,16,17,18,19

Its this version I really think has gone horribly backwards 

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A subjective opinion IS NOT a fact. I personally think the Rolling Stones were a much better rock band than the Beatles, but that doesn't mean anyone who prefers the Beatles is showing "blind faith" because they happen to disagree. We all have our own preferences.

Anyway, I'm struggling to understand the point you're trying to make now. So your main argument for "FM12 > FM20" is that... the 2D graphics engine looks prettier? Or is the match engine that's much better, and in what way is it better?

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For starters yes it looks better! That in itself is totally wrong for a game at years prior. 

 

Secondly playing just a few games I saw some really lovely variations in goals. Playmakers going past people sliding ball into a striker for him to crisply drill the ball into the net. It looks really nice. This literally never happens on 20. Goals from set pieces, crosses. The way the ball is knocked around. It just feels better, smoother. A striker going through 1v1 feeling its probably gonna be a goal rather than knowing 9/10 it isn't gonna be a goal. I enjoyed playing just a few matches last night on 12 than I did a single one on 20.  

 

I still haven't heard one answer yet why they did away with the 2d wuth the stands and shadow and enhanced graphics. And simply left us with a very primitive 2d version 

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Fm2008. Loved that version.

But anyway ... this highlights my major issue with this version and all since 17. The grey border around the 2d pitch ruins the aesthetics of stadium background pictures on matchday.

And its such a shame that this is still an issue. 

Edited by sidslayer
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1 minute ago, El_sambo said:

I still haven't heard one answer yet why they did away with the 2d wuth the stands and shadow and enhanced graphics. And simply left us with a very primitive 2d version 

I'll give you an answer. 2D classic was by far the most popular 2D view with players. 

A couple of years ago, SI could no longer support the old style 2D classic view so remodelled the newer 2D to look more like the old classic one (and even rebranded it 2D classic).

That's why. 

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1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

I'll give you an answer. 2D classic was by far the most popular 2D view with players. 

A couple of years ago, SI could no longer support the old style 2D classic view so remodelled the newer 2D to look more like the old classic one (and even rebranded it 2D classic).

That's why. 

With the ridiculous “work in progress” grey box of ugliness around it. At least let us customise it to make it transparent so we can see a stadium pic behind the 2d pitch. Immersion!

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Just now, sidslayer said:

With the ridiculous “work in progress” grey box of ugliness around it. At least let us customise it to make it transparent so we can see a stadium pic behind the 2d pitch. Immersion!

I don't notice the 'grey box of ugliness' as this is where I put all the tabs for match stats, player ratings, league tables etc. 

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Me too. Or it would be if it was transparent. I have a serious collection of stadium pictures. I want to see them on matchday like the good old days, for total immersion. With transparent widgets I get to see half the stadium pic in split view. I would like to see more of it, and that means removing the grey box. Which, I’ve found out, is actually impossible to implement.

2d back then was immersive. Isn’t immersion what we all want?

The pitch is a pitch. The ME is waaaay better now. But the overall matchday experience for 2d was by far better pre fm17.

Edited by sidslayer
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37 minutes ago, El_sambo said:

Both!!! Jesus my whole point is over ten tears aesthetically and the engine itself. I think 1) it looks worse and 2) this current version is worse! 

Baring in mind I enjoyed 13,14,15,16,17,18,19

Its this version I really think has gone horribly backwards 

You do need to bare in mind that FM20 still isn't in it's finished state yet! 

I'm enjoying FM15 at the moment & having a good save on that so fair dos you've gone back to FM12 & enjoy that but I'm sure FM20 will only get better  

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