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Arsenal 433 - horrific results

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5 hours ago, The Solman said:

So I've had mixed luck with the 4-3-3 with Arsenal.

I am 4th in the league and scoring goals but not getting as many as I should do from Laca.

Aubamayang has 20 goals from an IF-A position, Pépé has 11 goals and has been out for the best part of 3 months. I played Lacazette as a DLF-A. What I wanted to do was emulate the Liverpool front three in the hope he'd drop deep link play before bursting into the box.

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My starting midfield 3 were Torreira who has played admirably as a DLP-D, Guendouzi as a BBM and Ceballos as a Mezzala-A. They seemed to work well and both Guendouzi and Ceballos were getting goals. I lost Ceballos for 2months so I played Özil as a AP-A in that 3 and his performances have been okay and weighed in with goals and assists.

The back four I had both FBs on FB-Att then switched it to WB-Att and now WB-S. The CBs are both BPDs. Originally I had one as a stopper and the other on cover. I've now moved both to cover. Leno is SK-S.

I've had some brilliant results beating City away 3-0, Utd 3-1 away and 3-0 home. I've also had some terrible results losing to Wolves homes and away, Norwich away, Chelsea away 4-1.

I don't know if it's a match engine issue but I score very one on ones which is annoying me. 

What I want is defensive solidity I am 5/6 in terms of goals conceded. I still want to have the goal threat from the front three with the central striker chipping in more.

If my midfield can chip in with goals that would be nice though Ceballos had 5, Özil has had 4. Guendouzi has weighed in with a few too.

So at I want a quick pressing style of play ala Liverpool.

At home I play with an attacking mentality against most teams or I'll knock it down a notch to positive against better teams.

Away from home I played a cautious mentality. Any ideas to make this a bit more consistant would be greatly appreciated.

 

Home

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Away

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I think you should try lowering your pressing and only have your front 5 doing high pressure via player instructions. I would also try lowering the back line + LoE. Hopefully this will help against good counter attacking sides

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5 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

You shouldn't really need to change so dramatically between home and away.  Just changing mentality from Attacking to Positive is a big change so to go to Cautious is massive.

Firstly if MEZ-At was working for you, i'd of kept it even if using Ozil.  He'll will still be a creator due to his attributes and allowed to attack and if the MEZ fits the system better stick with it even if he's better suited to a different role/duty.

Defense wise is those defensive instructions... they're extreme. Teams that are good at counter attacking will cause you major problems.  Do you need to be so extreme? Especially without Counter Press, your practically Counter Pressing non-stop.

Attack wise i'd try to add a bit of variety in the front 3 rather than having both flanks do the same and all 3 on attack duty.

Defensive wise what set up would you go for so I still counter press when I need to? Is there anything else you'd change?

 

How do you alter your setup home and away if you don't change mentalities?

Thanks 👍🏾

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8 hours ago, The Solman said:

Defensive wise what set up would you go for so I still counter press when I need to? Is there anything else you'd change?

Depends what I see happening.  As you have a DM the CBs should be shielded so i expect the biggest risk is ball over the top if theres not enough pressure on the ball?

Assuming this is correct I'd reduce the dline and urgency to keep shape at the back. If I want the front 3 and CMs to press more urgent I'd use PIs on them.

Can use counter press but if good opponents keep beating it dont be afraid to remove it.

Quote

How do you alter your setup home and away if you don't change mentalities?

Thanks 👍🏾

I dont.

If I alter its due to different expectation of whom I'm playing rather than where. 

Sometimes the only difference is in the players I select and I only change tactic due to something I've seen during the match.

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3 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

Depends what I see happening.  As you have a DM the CBs should be shielded so i expect the biggest risk is ball over the top if theres not enough pressure on the ball?

Assuming this is correct I'd reduce the dline and urgency to keep shape at the back. If I want the front 3 and CMs to press more urgent I'd use PIs on them.

Can use counter press but if good opponents keep beating it dont be afraid to remove it.

I dont.

If I alter its due to different expectation of whom I'm playing rather than where. 

Sometimes the only difference is in the players I select and I only change tactic due to something I've seen during the match.

So I take it you play on a full match? I have extended highlights.

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21 hours ago, The Solman said:

What I want is defensive solidity I am 5/6 in terms of goals conceded

How do you expect to have defensive solidity with much higher DL coupled with extremely urgent pressing, hard tackling (i.e. get stuck in) and tight marking, and on top of all that - the Attacking team mentality (which makes these already extreme defensive instructions even more extreme) ??? Plus both wide forwards on attack duties. With such a setup, you are making yourself easily exposed to quick counters and balls over the top.

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1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

How do you expect to have defensive solidity with much higher DL coupled with extremely urgent pressing, hard tackling (i.e. get stuck in) and tight marking, and on top of all that - the Attacking team mentality (which makes these already extreme defensive instructions even more extreme) ??? Plus both wide forwards on attack duties. With such a setup, you are making yourself easily exposed to quick counters and balls over the top.

But I used this as a 4-3-3 set up which is meant to replicate the Liverpool style of play. So If I want to replicate this or a similar geggenpressing type 4-3-3 how do you best have that solidity, is it a case of lowering the mentality, removing some team instructions etc?

How would you all change your approach slightly against bigger teams as I have Bayern in the QF of the Europa and I am 2-0 down. I was going to attack but I realise I need some solidity as well.

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3 hours ago, The Solman said:

So I take it you play on a full match? I have extended highlights.

Very rarely. Typically when starting a new save / tactic.

Once i'm into a season and got things sorted i'll just use Key or Extended Highlights but if I don't get many highlights i'll try Comprehensive or just watch full match for a bit to see whats happening.

The more I see the more I understand what/why things are happening, i'm not in a rush to get to end of a season to then just guess what I need to do to improve the squad/tactic.  

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5 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Very rarely. Typically when starting a new save / tactic.

Once i'm into a season and got things sorted i'll just use Key or Extended Highlights but if I don't get many highlights i'll try Comprehensive or just watch full match for a bit to see whats happening.

The more I see the more I understand what/why things are happening, i'm not in a rush to get to end of a season to then just guess what I need to do to improve the squad/tactic.  

Makes sense I guess, I am switching to Comprehensive for the start of my next season.

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2 hours ago, The Solman said:

But I used this as a 4-3-3 set up which is meant to replicate the Liverpool style of play

Sorry mate if this is gonna disappoint you, but that's by no means how LFC play. I think you are failing to understand the importance of mentality and its impact on all other tactical settings. 

 

2 hours ago, The Solman said:

So If I want to replicate this or a similar geggenpressing type 4-3-3 how do you best have that solidity

Liverpool no longer play the total gegenpressing gung-ho style they played a couple of seasons ago. They do play a high-tempo and high-pressing game, but in a more measured manner. That's why their results in this and last season have been considerably better than in Klopp's first season (in which they stupidly lost too many points due to the extremely aggressive gegenpress style of defending). 

 

2 hours ago, The Solman said:

is it a case of lowering the mentality, removing some team instructions etc?

Tweaking some/many instructions toward making them much less extreme - yes.

Lowering the mentality - not necessary if you strike the right balance between other elements of your tactic (roles, duties and instructions), but even if you decide to lower the mentality - you'll still need to make a few other tweaks as well. Anyway, do not make big mentality changes (Positive instead of attacking would be a good starting point). 

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18 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Sorry mate if this is gonna disappoint you, but that's by no means how LFC play. I think you are failing to understand the importance of mentality and its impact on all other tactical settings. 

 

Liverpool no longer play the total gegenpressing gung-ho style they played a couple of seasons ago. They do play a high-tempo and high-pressing game, but in a more measured manner. That's why their results in this and last season have been considerably better than in Klopp's first season (in which they stupidly lost too many points due to the extremely aggressive gegenpress style of defending). 

 

Tweaking some/many instructions toward making them much less extreme - yes.

Lowering the mentality - not necessary if you strike the right balance between other elements of your tactic (roles, duties and instructions), but even if you decide to lower the mentality - you'll still need to make a few other tweaks as well. Anyway, do not make big mentality changes (Positive instead of attacking would be a good starting point). 

I did wonder that when you look at Klopp's style in game. I based my formation on this one.

https://www.footballmanagerblog.org/2019/12/jurgen-klopps-4-3-3-liverpool-tactic.html

With mentality when in your opinion should you be changing it? For instance I would of changed it if I was playing a stronger team away or to close a game out and vice versa if I am chasing a goal i'll up it to the highest attack mentality.

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4 hours ago, The Solman said:

With mentality when in your opinion should you be changing it? For instance I would of changed it if I was playing a stronger team away or to close a game out and vice versa if I am chasing a goal i'll up it to the highest attack mentality

Once you manage to create a well-balanced tactic that suits your team (under the Positive mentality for example), it's quite possible that you won't need to change the mentality even when playing against stronger teams. Instead, it would be just a couple of instructions and/or roles that might need to be slightly tweaked in such situations. But the problem is that your current tactic is far from well balanced, so it requires a complete overhaul IMHO.

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3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Once you manage to create a well-balanced tactic that suits your team (under the Positive mentality for example), it's quite possible that you won't need to change the mentality even when playing against stronger teams. Instead, it would be just a couple of instructions and/or roles that might need to be slightly tweaked in such situations. But the problem is that your current tactic is far from well balanced, so it requires a complete overhaul IMHO.

What are the key areas that need to balance it out? 

What I have done so far is the following gone to a positive mentality 

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I've kept the fullbacks on Support but I do wonder If at home I should have them on Attack although I know it's been said to have varying roles on different sides of the pitch.

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I've changed my passing as I was going slightly direct but I felt I gave the ball away a lot. What I plan to do is stick with shorter and give instructions to Xhaka and Luiz. I took off pass into space(Does it actually mean through balls or purely just switching play?)

I turned off the overlap but I am considering turning it back on but I'll look at a full match.

Low crosses as the heading ability of my front three is pretty poor. I lowered the tempo slightly but I may move that back up depending on what the match shows.

 

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I turned off the counter pressing and have selected my front 5 to press whilst the back 5 maintain their shape.

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I've lowered the line of engagement to standard as they are all pressing like mad anyway and knocked the defensive line down by a few notches.

I beat Bayern 1-0 at home but lost 2-1 on aggregate. I beat Reading 3-2 in the FA cup semi final, one goal was preventable I think if I'd paid more attention to their key striker. So far so good but any suggestions or obvious deficiencies will be welcome.

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41 minutes ago, The Solman said:

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Okay, this looks considerably better than your original tactic, especially in terms of roles and duties and in-possession instructions. On the other hand, your out-of-possession TIs are still problematic a bit.

What is good though is that you have now achieved an optimal level of compactness thanks to the combination of higher DL and standard LOE (i.e. the DL one notch higher than the LOE) :thup:

However, tight marking is not a good idea for your overall style of football, not least because it can be risky when coupled with a high DL (and under a high-risk mentality at that).

And I would remove not only tight marking, but also stay on feet and more urgent pressing. Basically, none of these is needed. Alternatively, you can try to play with these 2 instructions and see what happens. If it works well for you, then keep it up. If not - then remove them. Quite simple. 

When it comes to roles and duties, I really don't think that you need both CBs in BPD role, even if both are good with the ball (which Sokratis clearly is not). Keep Luiz as BPD, but change Sokratis into standard CD.

Also, why did you set both CBs on cover duty? That does not seem to make sense. Either play both on defend, or one on defend and the other on cover. But if you play them on different duties, then remove the offside trap. 

57 minutes ago, The Solman said:

I've kept the fullbacks on Support but I do wonder If at home I should have them on Attack

They may be on support duty, but in WB role (as opposed to FB), which inherently makes them more attack-minded and willing to bomb forward. So there is no need to switch either of them to attack duty, let alone both at the same time (especially as neither of your CMs has a holding role).

 

1 hour ago, The Solman said:

although I know it's been said to have varying roles on different sides of the pitch

You already have that difference in wide forward positions - IWsu and IFat.

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Looking at your results your not getting battered by anyone, you lost to Manchester United (no shame in that on this game)

Then you had 3 games in a week were your sqaud will have gotten tired and you may have had to rotate.

As others have said if your tactic worked well for a while it only needs minor changes, could be a case of a drop in form with a bunch of fixtures in a short space of time.

If I've lost a couple of games,  I normally Big Sam it for a game or two grind a result out then revert back to your more expansive tactic.

I normally play my hardest working midfielders in solid roles like centre midfield or ball winning midfielder (defend duty) Play slighty lower defensive line with lower engagement to stay vertically compact, play more direct to hopefully cut out mistakes in your own half etc.

On FM morale can plummet after a few losses on the bounce, I find that going back to basics and stop getting beat for a game or to helps rebuild morale back to a level were you can revert to being expansive again when a favourable game comes your way.

My style here won't be liked by most users, especially if your managing a big team but it's often worked for me.

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3 hours ago, thehig2 said:

Looking at your results your not getting battered by anyone, you lost to Manchester United (no shame in that on this game)

Then you had 3 games in a week were your sqaud will have gotten tired and you may have had to rotate.

As others have said if your tactic worked well for a while it only needs minor changes, could be a case of a drop in form with a bunch of fixtures in a short space of time.

If I've lost a couple of games,  I normally Big Sam it for a game or two grind a result out then revert back to your more expansive tactic.

I normally play my hardest working midfielders in solid roles like centre midfield or ball winning midfielder (defend duty) Play slighty lower defensive line with lower engagement to stay vertically compact, play more direct to hopefully cut out mistakes in your own half etc.

On FM morale can plummet after a few losses on the bounce, I find that going back to basics and stop getting beat for a game or to helps rebuild morale back to a level were you can revert to being expansive again when a favourable game comes your way.

My style here won't be liked by most users, especially if your managing a big team but it's often worked for me.

I did get battered by Chelsea but I felt it was maybe due to tinkering, I think and hope i've found a balance I am about to play the North London derby and I'll be watching the highlights on comprehensive. So i may well come back to you. :mad:

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, this looks considerably better than your original tactic, especially in terms of roles and duties and in-possession instructions. On the other hand, your out-of-possession TIs are still problematic a bit.

What is good though is that you have now achieved an optimal level of compactness thanks to the combination of higher DL and standard LOE (i.e. the DL one notch higher than the LOE) :thup:

However, tight marking is not a good idea for your overall style of football, not least because it can be risky when coupled with a high DL (and under a high-risk mentality at that).

And I would remove not only tight marking, but also stay on feet and more urgent pressing. Basically, none of these is needed. Alternatively, you can try to play with these 2 instructions and see what happens. If it works well for you, then keep it up. If not - then remove them. Quite simple. 

When it comes to roles and duties, I really don't think that you need both CBs in BPD role, even if both are good with the ball (which Sokratis clearly is not). Keep Luiz as BPD, but change Sokratis into standard CD.

Also, why did you set both CBs on cover duty? That does not seem to make sense. Either play both on defend, or one on defend and the other on cover. But if you play them on different duties, then remove the offside trap. 

They may be on support duty, but in WB role (as opposed to FB), which inherently makes them more attack-minded and willing to bomb forward. So there is no need to switch either of them to attack duty, let alone both at the same time (especially as neither of your CMs has a holding role).

 

You already have that difference in wide forward positions - IWsu and IFat.

The one thing that's worked is Aubameyang in the IF role has 20 goals for the season but how would I ensure Pépé when fit  would still be scoring? Previously I had him on IF-A. Would it be wiser to maybe have him as an IW-A? Lacazette's goalscoring in the DLF-A hasn't been as prolific but I don't know if it's the match engine as he he seems to miss loads of one v ones. I take it in a front 3 it's best to have the central strike in that role when you have no AMC to then help link play. What I was hoping was he'd spin off and drive into the box. However his trait is going into the channels so it maybe that I sign someone more suited to this role.

I've changed Sokratis' role in the set up. So lets wait and see what happens. I am tempted when playing AMN to use the Inverted Wingback like Arteta is at this moment in time.

Edited by The Solman

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3 hours ago, The Solman said:

The one thing that's worked is Aubameyang in the IF role has 20 goals for the season but how would I ensure Pépé when fit  would still be scoring? Previously I had him on IF-A. Would it be wiser to maybe have him as an IW-A? Lacazette's goalscoring in the DLF-A hasn't been as prolific but I don't know if it's the match engine as he he seems to miss loads of one v ones. I take it in a front 3 it's best to have the central strike in that role when you have no AMC to then help link play. What I was hoping was he'd spin off and drive into the box. However his trait is going into the channels so it maybe that I sign someone more suited to this role.

I've changed Sokratis' role in the set up. So lets wait and see what happens. I am tempted when playing AMN to use the Inverted Wingback like Arteta is at this moment in time.

I'd consider the players your using around Lacazette and not just the roles/duties being used.  Auba' is clearly a goal scorer and doesn't really have attributes to create for others.  Pepe I cant remember off top of my head  but suspect he is better at beating players with he ball at his feet than Auba' but how likely is he to create for Laca' rather than for himself?

Laca' if his attributes haven't changed much from 2019 is a good all round forward.  Outside of Ozil your other attacking starters are more scorers so I'd expect Laca's goals to suffer a bit.

You could change Pepe's duty but then the front 3 are all more focused on running in behind opponents.  There is lateral movement but no one is really dropping to create space for the runners.  Then theres a MEZ-At joining in so I think it becomes a bit one dimensional.  Could work great against teams who try to push up and press but could suffer against defensive teams.  Having both wide attacking midfielders on attack duty will also reduce there defending responsibilities which against strong teams would make me worried about having ozil in CM.

One option could be to change the ST role and/or duty so he links/creates more often.  If hes not getting chances due to others being more selfish types maybe he should just try and create for them more often

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Ive had a really good 2 season long save with Arsenal, consistently overachieving.

Some pointers that may help possibly that helped me:

1) Using very narrow width in attack and much shorter passing meant when we did lose the ball, we were neatly spaced out and close together, and in a good position to recover the ball quickly even when not using the counter press

2) When defending, it can help if you mark a POSITION, but not a specific MAN, in order to keep your shape. I like to mark the DM position with the central striker, the L/R full back positions with the wide men. And then, if one player in particular is giving you grief, don't mark him tightly. instead let him spin off and crowd the area he runs into, to snuff him out.

3) For your central midfield 3 combo, I like a DM (D), CM (s), MEZ (A) partnership. I think it suits the players quite well, all are well rounded at Arsenal. I personally use Torreira as the DM, and Guendouzi as the CM.

4) Give Nketiah game time. he is a very useful option

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1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

I'd consider the players your using around Lacazette and not just the roles/duties being used.  Auba' is clearly a goal scorer and doesn't really have attributes to create for others.  Pepe I cant remember off top of my head  but suspect he is better at beating players with he ball at his feet than Auba' but how likely is he to create for Laca' rather than for himself?

Laca' if his attributes haven't changed much from 2019 is a good all round forward.  Outside of Ozil your other attacking starters are more scorers so I'd expect Laca's goals to suffer a bit.

You could change Pepe's duty but then the front 3 are all more focused on running in behind opponents.  There is lateral movement but no one is really dropping to create space for the runners.  Then theres a MEZ-At joining in so I think it becomes a bit one dimensional.  Could work great against teams who try to push up and press but could suffer against defensive teams.  Having both wide attacking midfielders on attack duty will also reduce there defending responsibilities which against strong teams would make me worried about having ozil in CM.

One option could be to change the ST role and/or duty so he links/creates more often.  If hes not getting chances due to others being more selfish types maybe he should just try and create for them more often

i'll have a tinker, I think part of the problem is both Aubamayeng and Pépé are on the wings where the strongest foot is their inside foot so they never whip in crosses or very rarely. I don't seem to get many through balls for Lacazette either. Would you consider playing Lacazette as a PF or AF? Or due to their being no no.10 I need that link man?

However playing with the new formation setup I just beat Spurs 1-0 at home, first time I've played on comprehensive and I could see where some of the issues were, I struggle to stop Ndombele dominating play in the HB role. 

Defensively one the whole it was a really satisfying performance.

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9 minutes ago, FMunderachiever said:

Ive had a really good 2 season long save with Arsenal, consistently overachieving.

Some pointers that may help possibly that helped me:

1) Using very narrow width in attack and much shorter passing meant when we did lose the ball, we were neatly spaced out and close together, and in a good position to recover the ball quickly even when not using the counter press

2) When defending, it can help if you mark a POSITION, but not a specific MAN, in order to keep your shape. I like to mark the DM position with the central striker, the L/R full back positions with the wide men. And then, if one player in particular is giving you grief, don't mark him tightly. instead let him spin off and crowd the area he runs into, to snuff him out.

3) For your central midfield 3 combo, I like a DM (D), CM (s), MEZ (A) partnership. I think it suits the players quite well, all are well rounded at Arsenal. I personally use Torreira as the DM, and Guendouzi as the CM.

4) Give Nketiah game time. he is a very useful option

Cheers for that as I struggled to get to grips with Ndombele and considered doing that. I need to check the DM role as I like the DLP to recycle possession if the DM does that I may well switch. I get so much more enjoyment out of this game than I do PES of Fifa nowadays.

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6 hours ago, The Solman said:

I am tempted when playing AMN to use the Inverted Wingback like Arteta is at this moment in time

Honestly, I am not sure he's good enough for an IWB role in terms of his mental attributes. You can give it a try, but be careful. 

 

6 hours ago, The Solman said:

The one thing that's worked is Aubameyang in the IF role has 20 goals for the season but how would I ensure Pépé when fit  would still be scoring? Previously I had him on IF-A. Would it be wiser to maybe have him as an IW-A? Lacazette's goalscoring in the DLF-A hasn't been as prolific but I don't know if it's the match engine as he he seems to miss loads of one v ones

I wouldn't be bothered about how many goals this or that player has scored as long as goals are being scored and results are good overall. Why would you risk ruining a tactic that works only for the sake of one or two players scoring more goals? 

 

6 hours ago, The Solman said:

I take it in a front 3 it's best to have the central strike in that role when you have no AMC to then help link play. What I was hoping was he'd spin off and drive into the box. However his trait is going into the channels so it maybe that I sign someone more suited to this role

I would also play Laca as DLF in your current setup, occasionally switching his duty between support and attack (depending on what I want/need to achieve in a given situation). His trait of moving into channels is a good one, especially as he has the right attributes to do that effectively. He's a very good player, can play a number of different roles up front, so I would not replace him with another player (unless he himself wanted to leave the club). 

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Posted (edited)

Why oh why do I sometimes have a look at other people's tactics. This one just happens to be almost identical to the one I was going to create but now I think I'll scrap it as I don't want to copy :(

Mine was: 

Positive mentality

Hadn't decided on TI's but the ones advised in here seem reasonable. I probably would use a split press for the front 5 though. 

SK (S) 

WB (A) BPD (D) CB (D) WB (S) 

DM (D) 

BBM (S) MEZ (S) 

IW (S) IF (A) 

AF (A) 

I had already considered switching the attacking WB to support but was also wary about not having the same duties on both sides, but when I seen that here I thought that would suit me better. I had already decided on a Positive mentality, so it seems like I've just been unlucky in that I've came across this tactic when I was planning a very similar one myself. Been considering a RPM instead of the MEZ but I quite like the idea of having no designated playmaker in the tactic, the play isn't being forced through anyone this way. Also considering switching the AF (A) to a PF (A) depending on the attributes of the striker used. I know it's not identical to the one created by @The Solman but it's pretty damn close, especially if he takes the advice to switch the DLP (D) to a DM (D) and the advice on the CB's, with me switching the WB (A) to (S). 

I have this obsession that the striker must score the most amount of goals in the squad, when I'm probably better off making him a F9 to help the tactic overall. Can a AF (A) or even a poacher (with move I to channels) work in the system I had come up with? I guess I could make some changes to make mine more unique, but not sure what. Possibly having the IW (S) changed to (A) and the IF (A) to (S), that may support the lone striker better? 

I'll tag @Experienced Defender he seems to know what he's talking about :brock:

Edited by Gee_Simpson

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31 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

Why oh why do I sometimes have a look at other people's tactics. This one just happens to be almost identical to the one I was going to create but now I think I'll scrap it as I don't want to copy :(

Mine was: 

Positive mentality

Hadn't decided on TI's but the ones advised in here seem reasonable. I probably would use a split press for the front 5 though. 

SK (S) 

WB (A) BPD (D) CB (D) WB (S) 

DM (D) 

BBM (S) MEZ (S) 

IW (S) IF (A) 

AF (A) 

I had already considered switching the attacking WB to support but was also wary about not having the same duties on both sides, but when I seen that here I thought that would suit me better. I had already decided on a Positive mentality, so it seems like I've just been unlucky in that I've came across this tactic when I was planning a very similar one myself. Been considering a RPM instead of the MEZ but I quite like the idea of having no designated playmaker in the tactic, the play isn't being forced through anyone this way. Also considering switching the AF (A) to a PF (A) depending on the attributes of the striker used. I know it's not identical to the one created by @The Solman but it's pretty damn close, especially if he takes the advice to switch the DLP (D) to a DM (D) and the advice on the CB's, with me switching the WB (A) to (S). 

I have this obsession that the striker must score the most amount of goals in the squad, when I'm probably better off making him a F9 to help the tactic overall. Can a AF (A) work in the system I had come up with? I guess I could make some changes to make mine more unique, but not sure what. 

It would be interesting to see if an AF would work, for me my biggest issue is players in the box when crosses come in and the getting the crosses in. I do think there is a match engine bug as my players seem to always shoot or get caught because they dwell.

Just lost to Crystal Palace away but I wonder if it was more my individual set up and that maybe I should have stretched the play as they had a solid 5 at the back. Torriera played his best game for me though as a DM. I was considering starting Xhaka in the 3 alongside the Mezzala as a DLP-S.

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1 hour ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I'll tag @Experienced Defender he seems to know what he's talking about

What exactly is your question? 

 

1 hour ago, The Solman said:

It would be interesting to see if an AF would work

AF as the lone striker generally works better in counter-attacking tactics (with a lower LOE and faster transitions). In control and/or possession-based ones, the role tends to struggle (more often than not). But any "rule" has its exception(s), meaning that the context is what matters the most. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

What exactly is your question? 

 

4 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I have this obsession that the striker must score the most amount of goals in the squad, when I'm probably better off making him a F9 to help the tactic overall. Can a AF (A) or even a poacher (with move I to channels) work in the system I had come up with? I guess I could make some changes to make mine more unique, but not sure what. Possibly having the IW (S) changed to (A) and the IF (A) to (S), that may support the lone striker better? 

Mostly the above. I'm considering scrapping this though as it seems to be too similar a tactic to Solman's now. OCD doesn't produce rational thoughts at times! As despite me deciding nearly every role and duty for my tactic before visiting this thread, I'm now convinced I'm copying him :lol: As I said, this particular obsession with copying doesn't really make much sense, lol.

I do want to play a more forward thinking possession style, so not going backwards and sideways all the time, so that says to me at least Positive mentality.

Maybe the AF isn't such a good idea anyway, although Leicester seem to pull it off irl. Vardy would definitely be considered either a AF or a Poacher, maybe even a PF (A) in a possession orientated style. I may try a F9 but in my experience a lone F9 doesn't score many goals, and it doesn't really suit Greenwood or Rashford/Martial. 

I'm going Man Utd btw with the first window turned off. I was going to use a 4231 that I had created but imo it doesn't really suit Utd. 4123 (4141dm) seems more balanced and suitable. A 442 diamond could work well but I wouldn't know how to set up a balanced one. Is a diamond a viable shape for a possession system? Seems to me it would lend more to a counter system. I think I'll probably stick with the 4123.

Edited by Gee_Simpson

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1 hour ago, Gee_Simpson said:

Maybe the AF isn't such a good idea anyway, although Leicester seem to pull it off irl

Vardy is more like PF on attack duty than AF (speaking in FM terms). 

 

1 hour ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I may try a F9 but in my experience a lone F9 doesn't score many goals, and it doesn't really suit Greenwood or Rashford/Martial

So you are managing Man Utd? I am asking because I manage them in FM19, so I know their players very well. Honestly, none of their current strikers suits the F9 role at the moment (unless you decide to play Lingard as a striker). 

 

1 hour ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I'm going Man Utd btw with the first window turned off. I was going to use a 4231 that I had created but imo it doesn't really suit Utd

I agree. They currently don't have enough defensively reliable midfielders for a 4231. A player like Herrera is sorely needed in the midfield. 

 

1 hour ago, Gee_Simpson said:

4123 (4141dm) seems more balanced and suitable

Absolutely :thup: 

 

1 hour ago, Gee_Simpson said:

A 442 diamond could work well but I wouldn't know how to set up a balanced one

I use the narrow diamond in my Utd save, although I recently started using a 4123 as well (to relieve my fullbacks of the responsibility to control the entire flanks all the time). 

 

1 hour ago, Gee_Simpson said:

Is a diamond a viable shape for a possession system?

Can work under certain circumstances, but not as effectively as the 4123. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

 

Mostly the above. I'm considering scrapping this though as it seems to be too similar a tactic to Solman's now. OCD doesn't produce rational thoughts at times! As despite me deciding nearly every role and duty for my tactic before visiting this thread, I'm now convinced I'm copying him :lol: As I said, this particular obsession with copying doesn't really make much sense, lol.

I do want to play a more forward thinking possession style, so not going backwards and sideways all the time, so that says to me at least Positive mentality.

Maybe the AF isn't such a good idea anyway, although Leicester seem to pull it off irl. Vardy would definitely be considered either a AF or a Poacher, maybe even a PF (A) in a possession orientated style. I may try a F9 but in my experience a lone F9 doesn't score many goals, and it doesn't really suit Greenwood or Rashford/Martial. 

I'm going Man Utd btw with the first window turned off. I was going to use a 4231 that I had created but imo it doesn't really suit Utd. 4123 (4141dm) seems more balanced and suitable. A 442 diamond could work well but I wouldn't know how to set up a balanced one. 

Don't worry about copying me mate. I tried Lacazette as a DLF-S he scored. Defensively I'm doing okay I think it's my player instructions and opposition instructions need to be better. One thing I'd say is cause Auba is on the left as I IF-A I give him the instruction to be narrow and be closer to Lacazette.

Edited by The Solman

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Posted (edited)

@Experienced Defender

Yes, I will be going Man Utd with the first window disabled to make it more of a challenge. I will start that save once I've finished building my new PC, should be finished by next week when I have the time. 

Hmm, with regards to the diamond, I reckon I will stick to the 4123 then as I like to play a possession orientated game. Could a PF (A) work in a possession system? Reason why I had selected AF was because it suits Greenwood/Martial/Rashford, they will all probably have turns each playing as the lone striker, with the other playing as a wide forward. I really need to stop worrying if I'm using a similar tactic to others, especially when I had selected most of the roles before actually coming on to this thread and reading Solman's recent changes. The only thing I have taken from his is possibly making the WB (A) a support as I think maybe the WB (A) is too aggressive for a possession system? I still would like my striker to contribute with goals, so if PF (A) would be a suitable option I may try that, although if there is a support role that suits them I could try that too. 

Edited by Gee_Simpson

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21 minutes ago, The Solman said:

I tried Lacazette as a DLF-S he scored

I am glad that he scored for you on support duty, because it disproves the myth that a striker needs to be on attack duty in order to score. In my matches, it happens quite a few times that goals are scored by players on support duty (not only strikers), whereas assists come from attack-duty ones. 

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25 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I reckon I will stick to the 4123 then as I like to play a possession orientated game. Could a PF (A) work in a possession system?

Not an ideal role for a lone striker in possession-based systems, but in more progressive versions of possession football can work decently (provided you set up the rest properly). Anyway, certainly more suitable than AF. 

 

30 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

The only thing I have taken from his is possibly making the WB (A) a support as I think maybe the WB (A) is too aggressive for a possession system?

You can also go with FB on attack. Again, depends on what type of possession football you want to play - slow and patient, or more progressive. 

 

32 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I still would like my striker to contribute with goals, so if PF (A) would be a suitable option I may try that

On that score, please read this: 

 

37 minutes ago, The Solman said:

I tried Lacazette as a DLF-S he scored

 

7 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I am glad that he scored for you on support duty, because it disproves the myth that a striker needs to be on attack duty in order to score

;)

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8 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Not an ideal role for a lone striker in possession-based systems, but in more progressive versions of possession football can work decently (provided you set up the rest properly). Anyway, certainly more suitable than AF. 

Thanks. I want to play a more progressive style, I used to be a fan of the slow patient style, but Klopp and Guardiola's recent systems have had an impact on me. Plus the fact my team Hearts have a new German manager who is trying to implement a gegenpress possession style with the focus being forward aggressive play with the aim to dominate the opponent. I definitely am looking for a faster paced possession style rather than slow play. 

Lol, I think it's just been my experience with lone support strikers, I never seem to get it right. Obviously I must be doing something wrong! 

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1 minute ago, Gee_Simpson said:

Thanks. I want to play a more progressive style, I used to be a fan of the slow patient style, but Klopp and Guardiola's recent systems have had an impact on me. Plus the fact my team Hearts have a new German manager who is trying to implement a gegenpress possession style with the focus being forward aggressive play with the aim to dominate the opponent. I definitely am looking for a faster paced possession style rather than slow play

Okay, but just keep in mind that Klopp does not play possession football (despite Liverpool dominating possession in terms of statistics). 

 

4 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I think it's just been my experience with lone support strikers, I never seem to get it right. Obviously I must be doing something wrong!

Try to look at the tactic as a whole. Don't be obsessed with an individual player or role.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, but just keep in mind that Klopp does not play possession football (despite Liverpool dominating possession in terms of statistics). 

Yeah I think I'm probably looking too much into the possession stats regarding Liverpool then. I do want to play a progressive style but one that focuses on possession, I like the idea of making positive forward passes and only passing backwards if that's the only other option. I'm really not sure how I could fit the current Utd strikers into a 4123. I'll keep in mind that regarding the roles in isolation, sometimes I struggle with that aspect of the game. 

Edited by Gee_Simpson

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16 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, but just keep in mind that Klopp does not play possession football (despite Liverpool dominating possession in terms of statistics). 

 

Try to look at the tactic as a whole. Don't be obsessed with an individual player or role.

Do you think as you get better tactical familiarity you become better at scoring etc. Played all my games on comprehensive and I'm missing an awful lot of one v ones, crosses and a high amount of offsides direct from throw ins or from Fullbacks.

 

I'm sure there is a bug as I've had easy fit backs and the player alway dalies or shoots. Lacazette does look more lively in DLF-S

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10 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

Yeah I think I'm probably looking too much into the possession stats regarding Liverpool then. I do want to play a progressive style but one that focuses on possession, I like the idea of making positive forward passes and only passing backwards if that's the only other option. I'm really not sure how I could fit the current Utd strikers into a 4123. I'll keep in mind that regarding the roles in isolation, sometimes I struggle with that aspect of the game. 

I got held up on this on the other end of wanting this direct fast flowing football that I assumed would have very little short passing. I am surprised how well Özil played in this set up as a MC Mezzala. He has played consistently, after Ceballos got injured so much so I am even thinking about not selling him although Emile Smith Rowe is now 4 star current ability and I have bought Olmo.

 

For me with the 4-3-3 it's just defensive balance but that could be down to my player and oppo instructions but also my players. Scoring or more so chnace conversion is worrying me but I am sure the is and engine bug.

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11 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I'm really not sure how I could fit the current Utd strikers into a 4123

Looking at the current Utd squad, perhaps the 541WB Wide would be an optimal formation for them, because they have a good number of CBs but relatively few CMs. 

As for the strikers, all of them (Rashford, Martial and Greenwood) can be used both as strikers and wide forwards, which allows you to rotate them between these 3 positions. 

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11 hours ago, The Solman said:

Do you think as you get better tactical familiarity you become better at scoring etc

Really not sure whether tactical familiarity helps in that regard or not, but it's reasonable to assume that it's generally better to have more  familiarity than less. However, if a tactic is poorly designed, familiarity is not going to help.

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22 hours ago, The Solman said:

i'll have a tinker, I think part of the problem is both Aubamayeng and Pépé are on the wings where the strongest foot is their inside foot so they never whip in crosses or very rarely. I don't seem to get many through balls for Lacazette either. Would you consider playing Lacazette as a PF or AF? Or due to their being no no.10 I need that link man?

With Auba' and Pepe I would not want my forward to be focused on run in behind.  I don't think Laca's runs are the cause of him not getting through balls but the lack of supply from those around him.  The wide forwards are unlikely to supply passes for him however many runs he makes and he will just push the defensive line back resulting in less space for the wide forwards to make there runs into.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Looking at the current Utd squad, perhaps the 541WB Wide would be an optimal formation for them, because they have a good number of CBs but relatively few CMs. 

As for the strikers, all of them (Rashford, Martial and Greenwood) can be used both as strikers and wide forwards, which allows you to rotate them between these 3 positions. 

As you said they don't suit F9, I'm not sure what striker support position they could work well in? They seem to all suit an attacking striker duty.

I had a little test on FM Touch on my current PC and have went back and tried my 4231 with them and it seems to work better. I'm honestly not sure how I find it easier to get a 4231 to work vs a 4123 which is more balanced. 

Edited by Gee_Simpson

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5 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

As you said they don't suit F9, I'm not sure what striker support position they could work well in? They seem to all suit an attacking striker duty

Well, I would play each of them on attack duty (when played in the striker position) anyway. Martial and Rashford might work as F9 under certain circumstances, but neither is ideally suited for the role. Btw, with this current Man Utd squad, I would not insist on possession football of any kind. 

 

10 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I'm honestly not sure how I find it easier to get a 4231 to work vs a 4123 which is more balanced

I cannot know until I see the tactic. I know how I would basically look to set up a 4231 tactic for this Utd team if I were to give it a try. But as I said in my previous post, the 523 wide is an optimal system for them at the moment IMHO. 

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41 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, I would play each of them on attack duty (when played in the striker position) anyway. Martial and Rashford might work as F9 under certain circumstances, but neither is ideally suited for the role. Btw, with this current Man Utd squad, I would not insist on possession football of any kind.

Thanks. Yeah from looking at the squad it seems a more direct approach would wok better. I like my teams to play possession football but as I'm going to try with the first window off, maybe I should try and set them up to counter attack in the first season? Then bring in new players gradually in January and the next again Summer. Although if it's successful I may stick with it.

 

47 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I cannot know until I see the tactic. I know how I would basically look to set up a 4231 tactic for this Utd team if I were to give it a try.

Are you referring to the 4231 or the 4123?

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Just finished 2nd after Liverpool and Wolves collapsed on the last game of the season. I'll be looking forward, to increasing the tactical familiarity, just out of curioisty If I am playing City away or another big team how will alter my approach, just changing the roles or my mentality.

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6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

It's a great (over)achievement with the current Arsenal squad.

Thanks! Im still concerned I don't seem to get crosses in when I should. I have a ton of corners. My shots and crosses ALWAYS get blocked. But teams are defending quite deep. I have an FA cup final against Forest. I take it you lower the line of engagement to draw them out?

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, The Solman said:

I have an FA cup final against Forest. I take it you lower the line of engagement to draw them out?

That's one trick you can try. But it does not always work. Because there are different types of defensive opponents. 

 

22 minutes ago, The Solman said:

Im still concerned I don't seem to get crosses in when I should. I have a ton of corners. My shots and crosses ALWAYS get blocked

That's something that normally happens when you are a heavy favorite playing against a heavy underdog. So you need to watch the match and make tweaks accordingly. There is no universal recipe as to which exact tweak(s) you need to make in this or that situation. The more tactical experience you acquire, the easier it will be for you to understand what you need to do in a certain situation.

Edited by Experienced Defender

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12 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

That's one trick you can try. But it does not always work. Because there are different types of defensive opponents. 

 

That's something that normally happens when you are a heavy favorite playing against a heavy underdog. So you need to watch the match and make tweaks accordingly. There is no universal recipe as to which exact tweak(s) you need to make in this or that situation. The more tactical experience you acquire, the easier it will be for you to understand what you need to do in a certain situation.

How do you set up against stronger teams or teams where you are not a favourite. My go to would be to lower my mentality but if I am sticking with the same mentality how can I still play my game without being carved apart?

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1 hour ago, The Solman said:

How do you set up against stronger teams or teams where you are not a favourite

When I am also a strong (top) team, or when I am the complete underdog in a match against a top team? In either case, I do not make any dramatic changes to my primary tactic. 

 

1 hour ago, The Solman said:

My go to would be to lower my mentality

Lowering the mentality can be an option, but not more than just one notch (from Positive to Balanced, for example). But the lower mentality itself does not make you more defensively solid. Good vertical compactness and proper distribution of roles and duties are more important for this particular type of tactical adjustment.

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7 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

When I am also a strong (top) team, or when I am the complete underdog in a match against a top team? In either case, I do not make any dramatic changes to my primary tactic. 

 

Lowering the mentality can be an option, but not more than just one notch (from Positive to Balanced, for example). But the lower mentality itself does not make you more defensively solid. Good vertical compactness and proper distribution of roles and duties are more important for this particular type of tactical adjustment.

Soo ensuring my LOE and defensive line are as close together as possible. Changing some player roles, PIs and TIs.

 

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