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Neil Brock

Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread

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I don't know, I try to adapt, people complaining about long balls over the top, yeah, they are too accurate, but tactics are playing their role as well. I was playing a gegenpress tactic and long balls were a problem, not every team can pull it off. It worked but with mixed results. I don't know if AI was beginning to figure it out but I had had more and more problems with it. I tried a attacking deep line lower line of engagement tactic last game and won 3-1. Zero problems with balls over the top, AI 0 ccc, they scored from the free kick. Even though I had less possession my team was more dangerous and had more chances. Btw, I am playing with Portsmouth and I am at the top of the table currently 15 points in front of Ipswich.

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1 hour ago, Icy said:

I was one of the critics because no way to play short passing game and that there were no through balls nor strikers involvement but in my first game after the patch I just scored two goals I haven't seen before in FM20.

 

 

The first goal looks so cheap without any movement from front three, there could be dozens of such in every game. Second one is better. 

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31 minutes ago, TheVerySpecialOne said:

I don't know, I try to adapt, people complaining about long balls over the top, yeah, they are too accurate, but tactics are playing their role as well. I was playing a gegenpress tactic and long balls were a problem, not every team can pull it off. It worked but with mixed results. I don't know if AI was beginning to figure it out but I had had more and more problems with it. I tried a attacking deep line lower line of engagement tactic last game and won 3-1. Zero problems with balls over the top, AI 0 ccc, they scored from the free kick. Even though I had less possession my team was more dangerous and had more chances. Btw, I am playing with Portsmouth and I am at the top of the table currently 15 points in front of Ipswich.

You can adapt your tactics, but it doesn't disguise the flaws against the AI.

I've always set-up with a low block / direct balls in to the channel. It's the football I want to play, but I want to feel like I've earnt it. 

All my Conference National CBs can ping those perfect 50 yard balls. Both cross-field, or over the top to striker who brings it down perfectly. It just feels cheap - I want to see them attempted but I also expect them to run loose, for the striker to miscontrol, to see some shanked into the row Z.

That's the issue, when every team can play the same way with varying degrees of effectiveness, it feels pointless progressing to just see more of the same every game. If I find a top CM with good passing and vision, I want get him involved and not consistently bypassed. If I have a strong targetman with good feet,  I want to ping balls into his feet and for other players to play off him. 

For me - the main enjoyment in FM is being forced to adapt your team to the strengths of your best players. Or else bring in the type of players who can play the football you want. Right now I just feel the better players are more effective or prolific at the same actions, as opposed to making different decisions or intelligent play. In older games you could instantly identify a player with good vision on the pitch, while now they're just another cog in the machine.  

 

Edited by dannyfc

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2 hours ago, Rayban_DK said:

How much does the individual player attributes actually matter?

It seems that one-on-ones are a big problem this year, and even Messi can't seem to convert them enough. 

Have anyone run experiments with, let's say, taking a fast striker who scored a lot in the Vanarama (sp?) league and put him as a striker on a top Premiership team? Would his fast pace be enough to make him do good enough over the entirety of a season, or would he totally bomb? How is his conversion rate on 1-1's compared to the regular strikers? How is his rating compared to them? What about his shot-ratio, is it much lower than the rest of the attacking unit?

I'd do it myself if a season didn't take ages on my computer, lol.

Anticipation is the key stat for strikers - it's essentially the likelihood of getting on the end of a cross or loose ball ahead of the defender. A fast Vanarama striker just wouldn't get the same number of chances. 

Would be interested to see if anyone hasn't gotten good returns from a slow/technical player in the attacking third.

 

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I think people here just too harsh about this ME

It will never be perfect but I dont think  its broken or there is no different between players but it's just my opinion 

Try to stop give so much  attention to the little details and enjoy the game

If you having hard time to enjoy the game just dont play it..

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I don't get the "Lost possession" for my own players in match analysis. 1 of my defenders had a bunch of them in a match, but after reviewing all the clips afterwards it seems he actually did wonderfully, many of the "lost possessions" were successful clearances to my midfielders or simply him taking the ball from the opposition. Only a few were kind of "lost possessions", ie. a missed pass.

What is going on here? How is "lost possession" defined in the game?

 

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Inked6k_LI.thumb.jpg.2e9fe47321271f435ac58aa0ab74743b.jpg

Is there any way to stop this player (D/R) from being so open when opp. has throw ins around my own byline? Too many good chances are made when crossing.

Another example where I am not able to do anything about Bellerin being wide open:

6l.thumb.jpg.b2abc3ce866596b1a0b46fca59f48fb6.jpg

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The similar issue regarding full backs being wide open has been recognised as an issue by QA team and is currently under review. 

 

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3 hours ago, Icy said:

I was one of the critics because no way to play short passing game and that there were no through balls nor strikers involvement but in my first game after the patch I just scored two goals I haven't seen before in FM20.

 

 

Both nice goals. Specially the first one. Nice movement between the front three and through ball for the first goal. Shows the improvement in current ME. You can achieve whatever style you want to play. 

Edited by pats

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6 minutes ago, pats said:

The similar issue regarding full backs being wide open has been recognised as an issue by QA team and is currently under review. 

 

Thank goodness. This is a huge one though, which will certainly have significant knock-on effects. But this fundamental issue needs to be fixed for sure.

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20 minutes ago, Rayban_DK said:

Inked6k_LI.thumb.jpg.2e9fe47321271f435ac58aa0ab74743b.jpg

Is there any way to stop this player (D/R) from being so open when opp. has throw ins around my own byline? Too many good chances are made when crossing.

Another example where I am not able to do anything about Bellerin being wide open:

6l.thumb.jpg.b2abc3ce866596b1a0b46fca59f48fb6.jpg

OK I'm gonna stop playing until this is fixed. Just had a goal against me in the next game for this exact thing.

 

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29 minutes ago, Rayban_DK said:

Inked6k_LI.thumb.jpg.2e9fe47321271f435ac58aa0ab74743b.jpg

Is there any way to stop this player (D/R) from being so open when opp. has throw ins around my own byline? Too many good chances are made when crossing.

Another example where I am not able to do anything about Bellerin being wide open:

6l.thumb.jpg.b2abc3ce866596b1a0b46fca59f48fb6.jpg

Set pieces are bugged

 

 

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There should be SOME way to adjust defensive throw-ins that's not going long.

Here I defend a throw-in. I'd like to put 1 of my strikers down to the marked area. Otherwise we are outnumbered. That seems impossible. The unmarked guy went on to score.

Inked6m_LI.thumb.jpg.94c884a7a24674f3b36c72a7f60410e3.jpg

And here is a throw-in a little bit further up the field. Now this guy is totally unmarked:

Inked6n_LI.thumb.jpg.fd50a43fb62913b7734fa2fb4ac12907.jpg

Here is a throw-in from the other side. Same match as the previous 2:

6o.thumb.png.12289d89208279ae8602cad669961550.png

Another player unmarked, another huge chance to score:

The three screenshots are all from the same match and even from the same half. So many chances are created this way, it's almost unbareable. Playing a 5-3-2 formation.

 

Edited by Rayban_DK

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8 minutes ago, Rayban_DK said:

The three screenshots are all from the same match and even from the same half. So many chances are created this way, it's almost unbareable.

 

And does this happen the other way around? If so, might be worth reporting it. If not, it probably means it's something you can fix yourself. (I don't know how though, I rarely use the set piece creator thing)

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6 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

And does this happen the other way around? If so, might be worth reporting it. If not, it probably means it's something you can fix yourself. (I don't know how though, I rarely use the set piece creator thing)

You can't fix it. That's the entire problem.

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Does the game just stops for up to ten seconds once in a while during matches? Happens pretty frequently at my end and it's pretty frustrating as I often accidentally click on something that then counts as clicked when action resumes. Only happen during playback of chances.

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Have left a 'not recommended' review on Steam. So many frustrations and errors this year that it can't really be recommended this years edition, especially when a two year old version of the game is so much better match-wise.

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24 minutes ago, GOODNAME said:

23123123.thumb.jpg.6ddd2c4cd0dc0e4a859ef40bfacfdc16.jpg

This is a bug? i finished 4th and im not in the Champions League?

WHY ?

What year are you in?  Has England lost a CL spot?

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3 minutes ago, rp1966 said:

What year are you in?  Has England lost a CL spot?

 

28 minutes ago, GOODNAME said:

23123123.thumb.jpg.6ddd2c4cd0dc0e4a859ef40bfacfdc16.jpg

This is a bug? i finished 4th and im not in the Champions League?

WHY ?

I hav a similar question: I lost the FA cup final to MU, who finished 2. in the Premiership. Shouldn't my team get the ticket to the European competition? Or is it gone entirely?

I finished 1 spot off the qualifiers in the Premiership that same year, so missed on both accounts. No Europe for me next season.

Edited by Rayban_DK

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21 minutes ago, Rayban_DK said:

You can't fix it. That's the entire problem.

The point I'm making is if the AI controlled teams aren't having this issue, then you should be able fix it. They have the exact same tools to use as you have. If you don't feel that's the case, then raise it as a bug. 

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3 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

The point I'm making is if the AI controlled teams aren't having this issue, then you should be able fix it. They have the exact same tools to use as you have. If you don't feel that's the case, then raise it as a bug. 

I think it's my formation. I play a 5-3-2 and it seems the central defenders marks the same guy as one of my other defenders, thus leaving one unmarked. I don't want to change my formation just to fix this problem, though.

EDIT: Here is a game where it's pretty evident just from seeing the opp. throw-ins. I play as Brentford.

Newcastle v Brentford.pkm

 

Edited by Rayban_DK

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1 minute ago, Rayban_DK said:

 

I hav a similar question: I lost the FA cup final to MU, who finished 2. in the Premiership. Shouldn't my team get the ticket to the European competition? Or is it gone entirely?

They changed that rule a few seasons ago, it now goes to the next highest team in the league. 

As for @GOODNAME's issue, could it be that one of the teams below are in the CL or EL final and it's still to be played, meaning they might get the final CL spot from the PL teams? 

 

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4 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

They changed that rule a few seasons ago, it now goes to the next highest team in the league. 

As for @GOODNAME's issue, could it be that one of the teams below are in the CL or EL final and it's still to be played, meaning they might get the final CL spot from the PL teams?

 

Thanks! Shouldn't my team be the next highest team if I placed 1 spot outside the top places for European qualifications that same season?

Screenshot:

6p.thumb.png.4b5d62fcf33de6c4853593961a9448cd.png

Edited by Rayban_DK

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47 минут назад, GOODNAME сказал:

23123123.thumb.jpg.6ddd2c4cd0dc0e4a859ef40bfacfdc16.jpg

This is a bug? i finished 4th and im not in the Champions League?

WHY ?

Who won UCL? 

I guess Man City in 5th place isn't? If Man City won UCL so they will play like 4th place. No more incidents like Liverpool in 2005 year, UEFA changed rules

Edited by Novem9

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20 hours ago, BigV said:

following craigs comment, have you looked at his workrate or lead up to the counter? what his fitness and match fintess is? natural fitness and stamina too? decision making, concerntration and off the ball are v important aswell. 

I'd also watch the game in 2d and you can specifically if the movement is good or bad, 3d gives some uses but 2D really shines for tactical ways, you can see differences clearer. Give it a go or watch the compre highlights. 

I'd also argue your mentality and TI'S/PI'S have a big influence on it too- Line of engagment, DLF tend to hold the ball so usually want it short towards them rather than beyond them (that's the AF/PF role) also if you're attacking they tend to be more rilled up to work but if on counter/defensive then they usually wait for the given moments. 

As I said, it is something that has happened regardless of the type of player I'm putting in that area.

 

I'm not talking about their movement in general play - I'm talking about specifically when a counter attack has triggered. In those situations, the majority of players dart forward, and the striker is one I expect to see do that, particularly when the ball has gone alongside or beyond him. There's no actual benefit for the movement to hold position or drop deeper in those situations as that would place them in the middle of the retreating defenders and midfielders and essentially take him completely out of the counter-attacking equation.

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With these club visions, is there no way for me to negotiate a focus on developing young players?

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This ME has potential to be the best ever just need a couple of tweaks like reducing 1 on 1s and better conversation rate. 

Just scored this goal:

 

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2 minutes ago, Bakiano said:

This ME has potential to be the best ever just need a couple of tweaks like reducing 1 on 1s and better conversation rate. 

Just scored this goal:

 

What a goal! There's so much off the movement in that clip! It proves what the current ME is capable of.

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After playing some more with the latest ME version, I actually think that this subpar (to say the least) conversion rate is down to top level goalkeepers being way too good in 1v1 situations.

While playing friendlies against lower-level teams, my strikers barely missed any sitters, even with 60% match sharpness. They round the keeper, even chip it over and some shots which look like they're right next to the keeper go in (which usually happens in real life).

But when they're playing in EPL, goalkeepers just make impossible 1v1 saves all the time. Diving saves on shots attempted like 5m away from the keeper shouldn't happen every single game on multiple occasions. Especially not in 1v1 situations.
I don't recall scoring many goals (except for headers) where the ball went right past the keeper. Unless it's a powerful shot going in close to the corners, it's not happening. Everything sticks to them.
While we're at it, goalkeeper ratings should be fixed. There's no way a goalkeeper should be rated lower than 7 when he saves 10+ shots on target, unless he makes a mistake on the goals he conceds.

And long balls definitely need to be fixed.
Idk, some kind of passing range attribute should be added. Defenders who're average with the ball making perfect 50m+ passes every single game is unrealistic. In real life the whole point of high press tactics is to make the defenders hoof it, but here it's pointless when most of them make Xaviesque passes while under pressure.

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2 hours ago, Rayban_DK said:

Thanks! Shouldn't my team be the next highest team if I placed 1 spot outside the top places for European qualifications that same season?

Screenshot:

6p.thumb.png.4b5d62fcf33de6c4853593961a9448cd.png

No, unfortunately 7th spot is the 'floating spot'. If a team from above 7th wins the cup, 7th place gets into Europe, but if a team below 7th wins the cup, then that team gets in ahead of the 7th place team. I'm sure the rules page explains it better than I can :lol:

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How do you change squad status of your players? I have a goalkeeper who i think should be backup instead of first team goalkeeper. The only way i can change it is if its suggested to me by staff

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8 minutes ago, Cro-cop said:

How do you change squad status of your players? I have a goalkeeper who i think should be backup instead of first team goalkeeper. The only way i can change it is if its suggested to me by staff

Right click on player Squad > Agreed Playing Time

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43 minutes ago, pats said:

What a goal! There's so much off the movement in that clip! It proves what the current ME is capable of.

Yes, indeed. That off ball movements is fabolous, but also these first touch passes are nice.

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Neat Goal indeed.


Keeper ratings on FM remain to be tricky, in particular considering how many shots on target sides can have that realistically aren't that challenging for a keeper. This is an oldie, but it's exemplified some in this vintage FM17 match. There are so many speculative attempts made from Yards out, in parts directly aimed at the keeper, plus the Header stuff from the set piece. Naturally, the PSG AI tactically contributed to this. Plus the human Manager managing Ajaccio played retty deep to begin with. In real Football, you assume that if a keeper ever makes a dozen saves, he must have played fabulously. On FM, that's far from always the case…. and this continues straight into FM 20, or else people wouldn't post so many matches with 12+ attempts on target and barely a goal. If  those saves naturally are all one on ones in space, that's different than this kind of stuff. If keepers ever simply see great ratings for stopping tons of stuff, then it is the return of the supposedly "super keeper" all over. Any defensive team sitting deep will see a ton more shots (plus saved) by default.


Realistically, for the ratings, SI should probably do an internal table that quantifies the chances in their ME, and how difficult they are to save in general. That is, unless their ratings are in parts meant to emulate public player ratings. If a forward's scoring rate is wildly misjudged, this goes even more so for keeper stops. Lots of keeper biographies go into this.  There is few punditry out there who ever played as a keeper. Part of that  is  natural mind. In any football team the keepers are vastly outnumbered by the outfield players. There's only so many spots available between the sticks. And whilst many commentary, even if they had never played beyond amateur levels, know what it is like to put the ball into the back of the net; they don't have similar experience saving it all.

PS: It seems this forum software that randomly appears to capslock starting letters in my posts. Any way to stop this? 


 

Edited by Svenc

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So I played my first game on the updated M.E today. I like how attractive the forward play looks now. I'm ignoring the conversion rate as it's a well known thing now. 

However, what the hell has happened in the defensive aspect?? 

I play a high line, however it's not balls over the top causing me problems, it's my own defence. 

They don't move. When the ball comes high in an attempt to go over the top, my player stands completely still until it's bounced, then runs. 

Then you see them just goofing it forward when there's no opposition around them instead of playing it forward. 

Plus sometimes the defender just kicks it at the AI opposition in front of him, and he goes in for a shot. 

The static nature is shocking. I just won a match 5-2. The first goal conceded was because the ball bounced behind my player while there was enough time to get back to head it. 

The second happened, because a rebound from the corner went back into the box, it passed two of my players who didn't move and they scored. 

What da akshul fark. 

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2 minutes ago, MatthewS17 said:

So I played my first game on the updated M.E today. I like how attractive the forward play looks now. I'm ignoring the conversion rate as it's a well known thing now. 

However, what the hell has happened in the defensive aspect?? 

I play a high line, however it's not balls over the top causing me problems, it's my own defence. 

They don't move. When the ball comes high in an attempt to go over the top, my player stands completely still until it's bounced, then runs. 

Then you see them just goofing it forward when there's no opposition around them instead of playing it forward. 

Plus sometimes the defender just kicks it at the AI opposition in front of him, and he goes in for a shot. 

The static nature is shocking. I just won a match 5-2. The first goal conceded was because the ball bounced behind my player while there was enough time to get back to head it. 

The second happened, because a rebound from the corner went back into the box, it passed two of my players who didn't move and they scored. 

What da akshul fark. 

I know. I'm not going to go as far as saying this is unplayable, it isn't at all but it's certainly a mess.

Edited by Tiger666

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12 minutes ago, MatthewS17 said:

What da akshul fark.

Nice word play:brock:

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1 hour ago, Tiger666 said:

I know. I'm not going to go as far as saying this is unplayable, it isn't at all but it's certainly a mess.

I'll prod someone to give you a reply, or mark the thread as seen

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I think that game is the worst FM I ever played. It is all about winning and losing in a row. Once you start winning, you just win and then you lose in a match in which you have nearly 30 shots and were the better team. Ok this can happen in football. But after that you start to lose and it doesn't matter what you do. You just start losing or draws at best. Team starts playing poorly. After some matches you keep losing you win a match by chance, scoring in your only shot on target while they had much much more shots. After that you start winning again. You beat superior teams and they even can't get a shot. Then again you start losing. I don't think tactics have an effect on this game anymore. 

Edited by bigidinlan

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vor 51 Minuten schrieb bigidinlan:

I think that game is the worst FM I ever played. It is all about winning and losing in a row. Once you start winning, you just win and then you lose in a match in which you have nearly 30 shots and were the better team. Ok this can happen in football. But after that you start to lose and it doesn't matter what you do. You just start losing or draws at best. Team starts playing poorly. After some matches you keep losing you win a match by chance, scoring in your only shot on target while they had much much more shots. After that you start winning again. You beat superior teams and they even can't get a shot. Then again you start losing. I don't think tactics have an effect on this game anymore. 

Sounds like football. How many football manager could sign this statement? Just accept it, change your line-up, tweak your tactic and it might change. As in real football. Yes, it's a pain, but that is what I like about FM, it really gives you the joy and pain to be a manager.

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1 hour ago, bigidinlan said:

I think that game is the worst FM I ever played. It is all about winning and losing in a row. Once you start winning, you just win and then you lose in a match in which you have nearly 30 shots and were the better team. Ok this can happen in football. But after that you start to lose and it doesn't matter what you do. You just start losing or draws at best. Team starts playing poorly. After some matches you keep losing you win a match by chance, scoring in your only shot on target while they had much much more shots. After that you start winning again. You beat superior teams and they even can't get a shot. Then again you start losing. I don't think tactics have an effect on this game anymore. 

120452196_Merknad2019-12-09015918.thumb.jpg.4b24f16cd61cb9592fbf2bb5e83ba9fb.jpg

That's what can happen in football. Both in real life and in FM.
How you manage those periods though is important. Don't let your players get overconfident during good spells and keep their heads up during bad spells.
It's almost all about what you do and how you do it.
Almost, as you can't affect everything. Some things you just can't control.

And by your logic i should have gone on a losing streak after my cup loss there. Instead i beat the team in 1st....away. With a team that is significantly worse than their team (i'm predicted  8th while they are predicted 1st).
I watched the match and made a few tweaks during the match. We beat them on tactics.
They had 21 shots, 7 on target and 10 long shots. We had 7 shots, 6 on target and 0 long shots.
In other words; our chances and finishing was a whole lot better then theirs.
 

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On the topic of the confidence and streaks thing, I've always noticed that an angry action/team talk will 99/100 result in a "green - player reacted positively to this" but then their moral absolutely disappears afterwards, That's always been the case on every edition I think, is it intended?

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Imitates real like as KUBI says 

You think Arsenal are frustrated ? Tottenham have a new manager with new tactics so you can see whats happening to them in real life too

 

 

Arsenal.thumb.png.b8cd79e1745f06df1b689a0826ca3896.pngTottenham.thumb.png.85fe8134c1c88b8e8020dfcfbb3e4111.png

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4 hours ago, prot651 said:

Imitates real like as KUBI says 

You think Arsenal are frustrated ? Tottenham have a new manager with new tactics so you can see whats happening to them in real life too

 

 

Arsenal.thumb.png.b8cd79e1745f06df1b689a0826ca3896.pngTottenham.thumb.png.85fe8134c1c88b8e8020dfcfbb3e4111.png

Meanwhile, there are models suggesting Tottenham weren't as bad as their standing in the table suggested when their manager changed. In other words, a "return to supposedly form" was always on the cards some. Football results and actual performances aren't a perfect match sometimes for weeks and months. It's an incredibly low scoring sports, so streaks without losing even happen with fairly average performances, and vice versa. On a similar account: There may be also a reason why West Ham upon starting brightly faded down the table like a stripper down a pole too. And why despite the doom and gloom surrounding United at the start, they have just reverted to their standings of the last season again.

Unfortunately, FM does not have that kind of feedback, as sometimes, it may be helpful. The game may not be quite as "random" as football. However, its match engine too goes over the 90 minutes in full -- and pitifully few seconds of that decide the outcome of matches every single week. It doesn't take a Ph. D. in Maths to estimate that luck may oft play significant part in it all. In particular for players who don't greatly outperform and outthinkg the AI anyways.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/soccer-predictions/premier-league/

Quote

They had 21 shots, 7 on target and 10 long shots. We had 7 shots, 6 on target and 0 long shots.
In other words; our chances and finishing was a whole lot better then theirs.

@roykela The shots to shots on target Ratio was similar up to 80-90% back then when I tried to emulate Leicester on FM16ish. The overly aggressive top team AI had their back exposed both from play as well from their set piece tactics. They had an average of 25-30 shots against me, us 10. We won those Matches all by 3-1, at City 4-1 respectively. On FM's far too simplistic level of data, this shots to shots on target ratio was the only statistics available that would have hinted at what was actually going on. Which was an AI attacking with reckless abandon being exposed for its aggressive lines and zero protection for their attacking corners over and over. Funny Thing, the final match reports would have argued with how lucky we were. They are based on the non-football logics that if a team had more shots come the final whistle, it should be more likely to win. Funny that the AI never did, and we just kept on going. :D 

 

 

Edited by Svenc

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ON a slightly different note, how is this supported on these boards? That's not defending the match engine. But it speaks to reason that stuff like that would further highlight any possible ME issue and then some. People expect to consistently tear defenses a new one (and to see some beautiful Football), and then they d'l tactics that force the opposition to cover the vast area the size of about a closet.

Then again, why does the game allow it, given its subject matter. :D 

6cPBNUZ.png

Edited by Svenc

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