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Neil Brock

Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread

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With updates you've made the game worse than the Beta version. Decision making and vision is even worse, despite my team having vastly better cohesion than they did during the beta. Most of the same problems from FM19 persist e.g. no central through balls played, ever. Players blast shots into the keepers face 100% during a 2 vs 1, instead of making a 90 degree pass for a guaranteed goal, and players shoot from ridiculous angles rather than looking to pass. Green link player relationships still don't develop. The decision making is worse than in FM19. 

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7 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

I'm enjoying the game a lot this year, but do you want to know what I'm not enjoying?

No? 

Well, I'm telling you anyway. 

I'm not enjoying managing at a lower level and teams expecting you to pay full wages for loan signings. All of them. I haven't been able to source a single loan where the parent club pays all the wages. This might be more realistic (no idea if it is), but it's hugely frustrating when you're on a shoestring budget. 

Apparently in the last few seasons IRL there has been a push by teams to get teams to pay the full wages and a loan fee for youngsters. It's seen as a second line of income by clubs further up the food chain. 

I read a really good article about it somewhere, can't remember where now though. 

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I actually much preferred the match engine in the last version of the public beta, v2016 from memory.

Anyway, I’d be happy if SI do nothing this year other that polish all tedious bugs from the existing game as it’s potentially excellent and focus all available resources on producing a killer match engine. Pretty please.

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The jury's out, the verdict's in.

Pros: 

+the purples are lots of purplish this year

+the grass is ever greener on the next pitch

+the Club Vision™ is visionary

Cons (and this is a big one to be fixed til' Christmas)

- One on ones are NEVER missed :mad:

 

 

Edited by Svenc

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32 minutes ago, Svenc said:

The jury's out, the verdict's in.

Pros: 

+the purples are lots of purplish this year

+the grass is ever greener on the next pitch

+the Club Vision™ is visionary

Cons (and this is a big one to be fixed til' Christmas)

- One on ones are NEVER missed :mad:

 

 

The first highlight on the second video definitely highlights a ME issue though. How did you set that up? Did they miss any sitters?

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19 minutes ago, craiigman said:

 Did they miss any sitters?

I don't use that term except for clearly open Goals and the tap-in with the keeper already beaten at best. Only bad commentary does otherwise. :DThat said, yes. The actual conversion was slightly above 50%ish. There was a streak with four misses in sequence. The average one on one is regarded as a 1 in 3 Chance. So finishing them higher in actually space would only Sound About Right. The ones created due to the ME issue typically finishes from far tighter angles (as you realized in the above), so it's fair to assume that it should be a lesser Chance. I've seen central xGs rated as low as 0.25, so 1 in 5 to 6 depending on the severeness off the angle wouldn't Sound too bad. 

As to how I did set that up:

GK - FB - LM - AML AMC AMC AMC AMR - FW FW FW. All attack duty, roles irrelevant. This strcuture ensures that the fb as a solitary Player is the last line of the defense. The bigger "trick" is though then to tell every Player in the individual instructions to man mark one of the Opposition cbs. If you watch closely, that's what the Players then stick to do. This actually also reveals the selfish decision making in the final third -- Players through on Goals just tend to fire straight away. 

My Point is actually raising the awareness that not all one on ones should be regarded as equal opportunity so that the issues may get adressed accordingly. I've seen guys in the Bugs Forum arguing that a Forward pushed by some decent defending to shoot from a tight angle was an easy Chance. That's nonsense.

Edited by Svenc

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41 dakika önce, Svenc said:

I don't use that term except for clearly open Goals and the tap-in with the keeper already beaten at best. Only bad commentary does otherwise. :DThat said, yes. The actual conversion was slightly above 50%ish. There was a streak with four misses in sequence. The average one on one is regarded as a 1 in 3 Chance. So finishing them higher in actually space would only Sound About Right. The ones created due to the ME issue typically finishes from far tighter angles (as you realized in the above), so it's fair to assume that it should be a lesser Chance. I've seen central xGs rated as low as 0.25, so 1 in 5 to 6 depending on the severeness off the angle wouldn't Sound too bad. 

As to how I did set that up:

GK - FB - LM - AML AMC AMC AMC AMR - FW FW FW. All attack duty, roles irrelevant. This strcuture ensures that the fb as a solitary Player is the last line of the defense. The bigger "trick" is though then to tell every Player in the individual instructions to man mark one of the Opposition cbs. If you watch closely, that's what the Players then stick to do. This actually also reveals the selfish decision making in the final third -- Players through on Goals just tend to fire straight away. 

My Point is actually raising the awareness that not all one on ones should be regarded as equal opportunity so that the issues may get adressed accordingly. I've seen guys in the Bugs Forum arguing that a Forward pushed by some decent defending to shoot from a tight angle was an easy Chance. That's nonsense.

This shows the ME is broken. Players making very poor decisions even without any pressure on them. Movements are also bad. Mostly nobody runs for create passing options.

And the defending team should do something. At least the midfielders should run back. The roles and duties are important of course but there should be a free will :)

Edited by srvngrc

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Tunnel interviews are lagging for me when I answer the first question. This is happening on both my laptop and pc.

 

And when there is matchday and I am on selection squad screen, I added one column where it fits the whole screen. The problem is when there is next match, the added column is very wide and can't see it on the screen, I must scroll it to right to see the info.

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vor 19 Stunden schrieb kiwityke1983:

Except again that's how nearly all professional football teams create overloads IRL. 

It's one thing to create overloads, it's another when no other player has attacking relevance.

 

In fm you can play a bum as aml, amr as they barely influence the game as long as you have great fullbacks

 

 

I don't think it works that way in rl

 

I am winning the majority of my games but the me is so boring, always the same pattern regardless if it's my team or the ai or which tactics, so I stopped playing. 

Edited by thejay

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24 minutes ago, thejay said:

It's one thing to create overloads, it's another when no other player has attacking relevance.

 

In fm you can play a bum as aml, amr as they barely influence the game as long as you have great fullbacks

 

 

I don't think it works that way in rl

 

I am winning the majority of my games but the me is so boring, always the same pattern regardless if it's my team or the ai or which tactics, so I stopped playing. 

Currently my most influential players are AMR and AML. May be try making changes to your tactics? (try creating space for your AML/AMR) You just can't plug a tactic and expect ME to play the way you want. The game would have been very easy otherwise. 

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1 hour ago, srvngrc said:

I’m done with FM20 until ME update. Otherwise I’ll break my notebook.

That's clearly an exaggeration. The ME is no way near unplayable or bad. 

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vor 5 Minuten schrieb pats:

Currently my most influential players are AMR and AML. May be try making changes to your tactics? (try creating space for your AML/AMR) You just can't plug a tactic and expect ME to play the way you want. The game would have been very easy otherwise. 

Do you really think I just plug and play? 

I am playing this game for a very long time and spend the most time adjusting tactics 

You probably play a counter attacking style, if not post your tactics 

Edited by thejay

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1 minute ago, thejay said:

Do you really think I just plug and play? 

I am playing this game for a very long time and spend the most time adjusting tactics 

You probably play a counter attacking style, if not post your tactics 

I do not play a counter attacking style. I play a very patient possession style tactics.

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3 minutes ago, pats said:

That's clearly an exaggeration. The ME is no way near unplayable or bad. 

The fact it’s only around 80% smooth causing it to jitter gives me eye strain and headaches, so for some, it is unplayable.  

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vor 6 Minuten schrieb pats:

I do not play a counter attacking style. I play a very patient possession style tactics.

Yes then post your tactics and stats from your attacking players 

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Just now, pats said:

That's clearly an exaggeration. The ME is no way near unplayable or bad. 

It’s not bad i know. I’ve been playing this game about 20 years. It could be the best ME with some tweaks. But the bugs make it unplayable for me. I have a way to play. And the side netting issue makes my tactics a piece of garbage. I can exploid the bugs but i don’t want that. 

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52 minutes ago, MatthewS17 said:

The update to 20.1.4 is not an option on Steam for me? I'm still on .3?

Are you still opted in to the public beta? You might have to untick that

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2 hours ago, thejay said:

It's one thing to create overloads, it's another when no other player has attacking relevance.

 

In fm you can play a bum as aml, amr as they barely influence the game as long as you have great fullbacks

 

 

I don't think it works that way in rl

 

I am winning the majority of my games but the me is so boring, always the same pattern regardless if it's my team or the ai or which tactics, so I stopped playing. 

Absolutely not my experience of this ME. Most of my assists are coming from my AML and AMR and playmaker. 

I think my wingbacks got 4 maybe 5 assists between them all season. 

But as one of the few people who found the updated Beta ME unplayable I understand other people's experiences may vary. 

Edited by kiwityke1983

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I must admit that in my 4-3-1-2 setting both wingbacks to Fullback support or Wingback defend has partially fixed the issue with no central play. Before that, even with balanced tactic my wingbacks on support duty or fullbacks on attack were rushing up the field as soon as I had the ball, they were even past my strikers (fullbacks getting caught offside a lot that was really weird). So as they were up the field and unmarked, it was the main focus for my midfielders to pass to.

Being on defend duty they help more the slow build up but they still go up in the final third and help with width, so it's not that they sit back as they did in past FM versions if you set them to defend.

Maybe that is part of the problem in current ME, fullbacks/wingbacks too aggressive even on balanced and support settings and maybe even accelerating too fast? Then for most of us to set them on defend duty seems too conservative but... seems to be the way to use them this year for possession football at least until the ME is fixed/tweaked.

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Yeah @Icy, I'm with you there, I think I mentioned a dozen so pages or so ago that I thought FB's/WB's mentality was "off" as in they'd be too eager to get forward & into the wide positions too often & too soon

 

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37 minutes ago, Icy said:

I must admit that in my 4-3-1-2 setting both wingbacks to Fullback support or Wingback defend has partially fixed the issue with no central play. Before that, even with balanced tactic my wingbacks on support duty or fullbacks on attack were rushing up the field as soon as I had the ball, they were even past my strikers (fullbacks getting caught offside a lot that was really weird). So as they were up the field and unmarked, it was the main focus for my midfielders to pass to.

Being on defend duty they help more the slow build up but they still go up in the final third and help with width, so it's not that they sit back as they did in past FM versions if you set them to defend.

Maybe that is part of the problem in current ME, fullbacks/wingbacks too aggressive even on balanced and support settings and maybe even accelerating too fast? Then for most of us to set them on defend duty seems too conservative but... seems to be the way to use them this year for possession football at least until the ME is fixed/tweaked.

This is exactly why I asked the question a page or two back, just to see how people were setting up.  Giving them an attack duty can absolutely have a place in some systems but in a lot of cases there is simply no need to have them so aggressive especially when considering other factors such as mentality and Traits.  Wingbacks bombing past the strikers being so far upfield they become the main passing focus (and even getting caught offside) is a good observation - now combine that with (in some cases) them not really having a passing option when they get into those positions and it becomes a recipe for disaster.  And god help you if you lose possession and you get counter attacked :p.

None of this is of course to say there are no issues (there are and lots of bug reports have been raised) you just don't always need to be quite so aggressive when setting things up.

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11 hours ago, Svenc said:

Hardly a surprise that the amount should be much higher in FM17 of all though. The centre mids were solely responsible for covering the entire centre of the pitch... the Opposition could ping the ball to the Forward at will, depending on which (Millwall are a 3rd division side here, West Brom EPL). Weirdest decision SI had made in the last couple years, in my opinion, as to defending. Was meant to fix the flanks being open on FM16, btw, but: Central Areas are the weakest on the pitch, be it in real Football, or on Sensible Soccer, as that's where Players have multiple Options to pass (rather than just infield, Forwards and backwards), as well as it being the shortest distance to the goal.

 

 

I think @MBarbaric may have a bit of a Point since then. Once Things were tightened up (again), the Forward's inherent movement coding had to follow alongside to that tightening up. And perhaps, is still trying to Play some catching up. The ever important balance between defense and attacking phases of Play. That said, somebody playing roles such as Poacher, in particular as a lone Forward, should arguably struggle here as those are roles not meant to be much involved. Same as anybody just shoving all Players Forward and so not Opening any central space. Maybe the compromise on the much beloved FM17 and side-stepping of the actual issue for a fully Season may be the reason why it's still trying to Play (some) catching up. :D 

I agree that the channels were exposed in FM17 so it was easier to involve the strikers even a lone forward on attack duty, but the point is that in FM20 there are still opportunities to pass the ball to the striker but it doesn't happen. I mean the space is there, just not as much as in FM17 so it's possible to involve the striker, especially when he's given a dropping role (like in my case) and duty.

One more thing I noticed when my striker finally got a rare pass from the midfielders, he just passed it back quickly, didn't bother holding onto it like the role tells him to (Deep Lying Forward) as if he was scared of the ball. :D So a role that should help create space doesn't do that so how are my runners supposed to attack the space when the role that's required to do so doesn't do its job?

  

1 hour ago, Icy said:

Maybe that is part of the problem in current ME, fullbacks/wingbacks too aggressive even on balanced and support settings and maybe even accelerating too fast? Then for most of us to set them on defend duty seems too conservative but... seems to be the way to use them this year for possession football at least until the ME is fixed/tweaked.

Noticed this aswell. I felt at times as if I was playing with WB-A when both my fullbacks were set on WB-S.

Edited by Armistice

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I found this on fb, appaerently it works

 

"I did see some people writte about they striker do not score when it is 1v1.

I also had this problem, feel like the striker trying to on purpose shooting at the goalkeeper.

After playd almost 1 season, with a striker trying to kill the opposit teams goalkeeper.
I thought it has to be a solution, after i see he shooting on the goalkeeper. ( finishing on player is 14 ).

So i did go to training and individual . and then i found out on right bottom i can instruct coaches to train him on going around the goalkeeper.

So i did choose this. First comment i get from my assist manager is , that this is waist of training, and i should trust him. after this should only be used on players that is not good on finishing .

( well my striker hits everything that is smaller then the goal .)

So i not trust assist and force that training on him, and finish training.

After 2 weeks , i now see a change in the game.
when the striker comes 1v1 against the goalkeeper, i see he take one step to the side and then shoot. ( and goal )

He only had two times been 1v1 but scored on both chances.

Maybe someone else want to test this to see if they see the same. if you player struggel to score on 1v1.

At least i see him do a step on the side and then shoot. before he only did shoot."

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2 minutes ago, herne79 said:

This is exactly why I asked the question a page or two back, just to see how people were setting up.  Giving them an attack duty can absolutely have a place in some systems but in a lot of cases there is simply no need to have them so aggressive especially when considering other factors such as mentality and Traits.  Wingbacks bombing past the strikers being so far upfield they become the main passing focus (and even getting caught offside) is a good observation - now combine that with (in some cases) them not really having a passing option when they get into those positions and it becomes a recipe for disaster.  And god help you if you lose possession and you get counter attacked :p.

None of this is of course to say there are no issues (there are and lots of bug reports have been raised) you just don't always need to be quite so aggressive when setting things up.

Surely wing back on support should do exactly what it says when playing positive or attacking though? (excluding overlap) to support the midfield and they do that but act like wingers when forward tuck in or be in line with the opposition's midfield when they defend. People use them aggressively to make them useful and "cross the ball", if you're on defend they barely do but on attack it's like they're wingers (right i guess- look at TAA) but then you expect support to be the middle ground and they act like supporting wingers rather than being the middle ground.

Full back is the same thing but worse off IMO which is why I think it doesn't work as great as other FM's, defend works fine they stay in a back line, support they stick in line with the DM line, attack they act like wingers on attack. Too big of a difference imo. I don't think many teams use full backs these days especially if you're a top club. Found a few people saying that CWB acted the exact same as WB's a while ago and it wouldn't surprise me if they do. 

I also think the overlap in uneccesary now, if you play attacking football then it's already happening with a support/attacking rb/lb even positive or balanced. I'm assuming overlap TI is there to focus on that so wide play, Any counter attacking or defensive team wouldn't use overlap cause it strays their chances and holding it up will only make them punishable if they lose the ball. 

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3 hours ago, thejay said:

It's one thing to create overloads, it's another when no other player has attacking relevance.

 

In fm you can play a bum as aml, amr as they barely influence the game as long as you have great fullbacks

 

 

I don't think it works that way in rl

 

I am winning the majority of my games but the me is so boring, always the same pattern regardless if it's my team or the ai or which tactics, so I stopped playing. 

Exactly the same here. My fullbacks play like Messi and the AI just keeps giving them all the space and time in the world. I win every game and last two matches got 5 penalties for me and all created by my fullback dribbling.

 

First FM since CM3 that I find the ME really off putting. 

Edited by KyleHyde

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8 ore fa, kiwityke1983 ha scritto:

Apparently in the last few seasons IRL there has been a push by teams to get teams to pay the full wages and a loan fee for youngsters. It's seen as a second line of income by clubs further up the food chain. 

I read a really good article about it somewhere, can't remember where now though. 

I think it's really good also for the gameplay. With previous FM it was way easier when managing a team from Italian Serie C, taking on loan great young players and make the double jump to Serie A.

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hace 59 minutos, herne79 dijo:

None of this is of course to say there are no issues (there are and lots of bug reports have been raised) you just don't always need to be quite so aggressive when setting things up.

The problem many of us are having is because this has changed this year for the worse, as you need to set them as defensive even on balanced tactics as they play way too aggressive this year. Even if they are garbage or just defensive players, they still run way too fast and attack non stop even at the conference level. The fact that they are caught offside a lot means there is a huge problem there, not many times I see an offside from a fullback in TV because he was faster going up that even the strikers.

To have to set your fullbacks/wingbacks as defensive on any tactic above Cautious is counter intuitive and for sure will generate a lot of frustration (or joy to these that are happy seeing all mediocre fullbacks playing like Marcelo at the conference level).

Edited by Icy

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18 minuti fa, MBarbaric ha scritto:

i know what you meant on bolded part, but to be (again) painfully pedantic, that isn't really true. During my career (in real football, not this sin of ours) I've encountered numerous teams that use "poacher" up front and combine it with patient and possession hungry football. It all comes down how to compensate for that "lazy" player and there are infinite number of ways. 

to get back on point, personnaly, I think the ME is "beyond repair" in terms of representing football under constraints imposed by the code. It is back and forth year after year and there are always holes that can't be plugged. This forum is more like a psychological experiment in sense that you have two very passionate camps. One, that will scream bug on anything that doesn't work for them and the other, equally if not even more annoying, that will claim they want their wingers to stay wide because they want to cover the flanks, or "fishermen friends", long shots.... You remember those back in FM17/18/19? In the end it is the same people on both sides.

I think the main reason for poor offensive play is the same as it always was. In training you learn how to shake off the marker:

-curved runs

-check back then run forward

-...

Those are just two basic things that never happen and these are only individual things. Then you get deeper and you see, i.e.  fake runs designed to drag the marker away while using a third man run to exploit the space. The last one actually happens even in FM. However, they are more of a circumstance/chance/accident while in real football they are constant and designed. Moreover, they are integrated with other passing options in a coherent manner. The difference between poor/average/good teams are the number of passing (progressive) options they create at any given moment in possession. 

A poor team will have only that one run into space.

fig.1.thumb.png.aeeb98f2cba91de0c93d30f0476765e2.png

a good team will have numerous options. In above example is River Plate entering the middle third against medium/deep defense. They tend to get their playmaker (#15) on the ball in the space vacated by the full back (yellow rectangle). They look to dominate possession so they drop the winger in the half space (dark blue rectangle). However, to create space in center, they keep maximal width with full backs (green circles). This gives more room in the center. You could more/less do the same thing in FM if you chose attacking FB and IW winger or wide playmaker.


fig.2.thumb.png.549805b61de4b6a361ca420c76875db4.png

Above is the same team only the base for retention is created in a different manner. Here, the RW moves inside (#19) while the LW (#11) switches to the right flank. However, just switching side isn't going to create space to receive the pass. What is actually needed is constant movement from all off the ball players. Two steps back, three steps left, check left-sprint right, move inside-drop deep... These small movement, (coordinated) switches of position are things that make it difficult for the defending team to keep their shape and mantain compactness. They create space and they are almost non existent in the FM. Just think when would your IW from the first picture come to the right flank in FM? He'd always stay more or less on the left. Add to that lack of those small movement to shake off the marker and you are basically left with nothing.

The ME simply doesn't replicate this. Hence lack of space for a pass (plus, I'd wager there is also something wrong with risk/reward calculations on vertical/diagonal passes) in central corridor. This all comes down to how the TC is designed. As per above example, #11 in first picture acts as IW in TC. However, in the next instance he is a Roaming playmaker, or DLF, or whatever. TC is way too rigid to reflect the diversity/dynamism of a real football player in offensive phase. 

All this boils down to the way the TC is made. It allows a lot of space for creativity for the human player as there are numerous instructions you can tick/untick. However, this is oriented towards that player and completely disregards everything else. In real game, that one player isn't isolated and tactics are prepared in a coherent manner to include all players exploiting strengths of all of them. 

Ironically, as I see it, the game is more suited for Director of Football role where you buy/sell and manage the team. That part of the game is on high standard. It fails, however, to represent football on the pitch. If you think about it, why SI don't call a few coaches in their office to play a game of the most realistic football simulation? You are right, they'd be disgusted with central play and move away rage quitting :D 

That being said, it sells so SI must be doing something right. Sadly, it mostly exploits its unknowledgable fan base while neglecting how football (on the pitch) works. I am more and more convinced that this won't be solved (and it doesn't really need to be, to be honest). It is a game, not a tactics simulator. Just look at all those coments from FM17/16/18... people really know little and they just want to get a quick fix of gratification. That is the role of FM and it does it really well. Just let me play as DOF please :D 

I couldn't agree more.

I think anyway this is what 99% users want: how good would be to have Tottenham playing gegenpressing with 4-3-3 and replacing Eriksen with Pogba? Let me try it with FM. :D

I think the solution would be to change ME and have two playing options: Manager exactly as it's now, Advanced Manager with real total control on the tactics.

However, it would also be a PITA  to put in the game the real playing style of each manager, which will play as AI. But it would be also lot of fun to play against opponents playing as IRL are playing teams managed by Klopp, Guardiola, Ancelotti etc.

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9 часов назад, TheIronDuke сказал:

With updates you've made the game worse than the Beta version. Decision making and vision is even worse, despite my team having vastly better cohesion than they did during the beta. Most of the same problems from FM19 persist e.g. no central through balls played, ever. Players blast shots into the keepers face 100% during a 2 vs 1, instead of making a 90 degree pass for a guaranteed goal, and players shoot from ridiculous angles rather than looking to pass. Green link player relationships still don't develop. The decision making is worse than in FM19. 

I play FM20 just first week and already have examples which show that your statements are incorrect for every case (and I dont play in a topteams) but honeslty I just dont want to waste my time to share examples because probably it doesnt change something

Edited by Novem9

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51 minutes ago, BigV said:

Surely wing back on support should do exactly what it says when playing positive or attacking though?

Yes and no :p.  Going by just the role description which, lets face it, is what we kind of have to go by, then yes.  The issue becomes - and this is far less clear (this is the "no" part) - is that how the role plays gets influenced by other factors including Mentality, TIs and player Traits / attributes.  It's the combination of those factors which determines how the role plays, not just the role.

So a Wingback (support) using the Defensive mentality, no overlap TI and a player with rubbish work rate, determination and no Trait to get him forward often is a very different beast to the same role / duty using the Attacking mentality, who looks for overlaps, with great work rate and determination and a Trait to get him forward a lot.

14 minutes ago, Icy said:

To have to set your fullbacks/wingbacks as defensive on any tactic above Cautious is counter intuitive and for sure will generate a lot of frustration (or joy to these that are happy seeing all mediocre fullbacks playing like Marcelo at the conference level).

I wouldn't agree you "have" to set your wide backs like that as different tactical styles may need different combinations, I'm just thinking about these combinations and how it affects behaviour.  It's not always intuitive which I agree can lead to frustration.

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vor 36 Minuten schrieb MBarbaric:

i know what you meant on bolded part, but to be (again) painfully pedantic, that isn't really true. During my career (in real football, not this sin of ours) I've encountered numerous teams that use "poacher" up front and combine it with patient and possession hungry football. It all comes down how to compensate for that "lazy" player and there are infinite number of ways. 

to get back on point, personnaly, I think the ME is "beyond repair" in terms of representing football under constraints imposed by the code. It is back and forth year after year and there are always holes that can't be plugged. This forum is more like a psychological experiment in sense that you have two very passionate camps. One, that will scream bug on anything that doesn't work for them and the other, equally if not even more annoying, that will claim they want their wingers to stay wide because they want to cover the flanks, or "fishermen friends", long shots.... You remember those back in FM17/18/19? In the end it is the same people on both sides.

I think the main reason for poor offensive play is the same as it always was. In training you learn how to shake off the marker:

-curved runs

-check back then run forward

-...

Those are just two basic things that never happen and these are only individual things. Then you get deeper and you see, i.e.  fake runs designed to drag the marker away while using a third man run to exploit the space. The last one actually happens even in FM. However, they are more of a circumstance/chance/accident while in real football they are constant and designed. Moreover, they are integrated with other passing options in a coherent manner. The difference between poor/average/good teams are the number of passing (progressive) options they create at any given moment in possession. 

A poor team will have only that one run into space.

fig.1.thumb.png.aeeb98f2cba91de0c93d30f0476765e2.png

a good team will have numerous options. In above example is River Plate entering the middle third against medium/deep defense. They tend to get their playmaker (#15) on the ball in the space vacated by the full back (yellow rectangle). They look to dominate possession so they drop the winger in the half space (dark blue rectangle). However, to create space in center, they keep maximal width with full backs (green circles). This gives more room in the center. You could more/less do the same thing in FM if you chose attacking FB and IW winger or wide playmaker.


fig.2.thumb.png.549805b61de4b6a361ca420c76875db4.png

Above is the same team only the base for retention is created in a different manner. Here, the RW moves inside (#19) while the LW (#11) switches to the right flank. However, just switching side isn't going to create space to receive the pass. What is actually needed is constant movement from all off the ball players. Two steps back, three steps left, check left-sprint right, move inside-drop deep... These small movement, (coordinated) switches of position are things that make it difficult for the defending team to keep their shape and mantain compactness. They create space and they are almost non existent in the FM. Just think when would your IW from the first picture come to the right flank in FM? He'd always stay more or less on the left. Add to that lack of those small movement to shake off the marker and you are basically left with nothing.

The ME simply doesn't replicate this. Hence lack of space for a pass (plus, I'd wager there is also something wrong with risk/reward calculations on vertical/diagonal passes) in central corridor. This all comes down to how the TC is designed. As per above example, #11 in first picture acts as IW in TC. However, in the next instance he is a Roaming playmaker, or DLF, or whatever. TC is way too rigid to reflect the diversity/dynamism of a real football player in offensive phase. 

All this boils down to the way the TC is made. It allows a lot of space for creativity for the human player as there are numerous instructions you can tick/untick. However, this is oriented towards that player and completely disregards everything else. In real game, that one player isn't isolated and tactics are prepared in a coherent manner to include all players exploiting strengths of all of them. 

Ironically, as I see it, the game is more suited for Director of Football role where you buy/sell and manage the team. That part of the game is on high standard. It fails, however, to represent football on the pitch. If you think about it, why SI don't call a few coaches in their office to play a game of the most realistic football simulation? You are right, they'd be disgusted with central play and move away rage quitting :D 

That being said, it sells so SI must be doing something right. Sadly, it mostly exploits its unknowledgable fan base while neglecting how football (on the pitch) works. I am more and more convinced that this won't be solved (and it doesn't really need to be, to be honest). It is a game, not a tactics simulator. Just look at all those coments from FM17/16/18... people really know little and they just want to get a quick fix of gratification. That is the role of FM and it does it really well. Just let me play as DOF please :D 

Obviously you can't create space in fm like in rl, but that's not the reason many people are not satisfied with the me. 

 

I would be satisfied if the wide players make them selves available for the ball correctly and if they moved correctly in the final third, also if the midfielders would actually play the correct passes. 

 

 

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Imagine the meltdown on here, if someone was managing Barcelona and this happened....

Barcelona started with four forwards and no idea, an empty space where one of the interiores should be, playing a sort of 4-1-1-1-3, maybe a 4-2-4, if you could call it anything at all. Slow, lacking ideas, barely able to open up lines of passes, they gave the ball away 135 times. Most the time, it wouldn’t be an exaggeration to say they didn’t know what to do.

This is an excerpt from the Guardian's report on their recent game vs Leganés. 

People who want the game to be exactly like real life...be careful what you wish for. 

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I must be a glass half full type of guy.

I'm really enjoying this years game, much more so than FM19.

I'm seeing some nice variations in play, some good team goals and i've been able to reduce the shots into the side netting to acceptable levels by adjusting my tactics.

It might not be hyper realistic and stand up to forensic analysis, but it is FUN

Job, wife, kids, dogs get in the way these days, so something  I can pick up and run with for an hour a day, living the dream of being Jim Gannon and taking the mighty Stockport County into Europe is enough for me.

Compared to so called AAA games which are garbage, FM remains a diamond and the only thing that can hold my interest these days.

Good job SI :thup: 

     

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4 hours ago, pats said:

That's clearly an exaggeration. 

This is what happens on here though. Just wait, the next 10 pages will be full of 'Wingbacks are too aggressive on anything other than defend mentality' even though this was never mentioned once in the first 30-odd pages of this thread. People see an 'issue' on here, and suddenly they start to see it in game, which leads them to post about it. 

What I've learned about FM this year, and why I think this is perhaps the best ME they've ever released, is that overly attacking, aggressive tactics are now finally being punished, not necessarily in results, but in how the teams set up like this look on the pitch. I'm not getting away with some of the stuff I used to, and I'm now having to think more than before about how the roles and duties work alongside one another. That to me is a positive step. It's also just my opinion on what I see in the game. I hardly ever see shots into the side netting, or multiple 1v1s missed. I've studied the analysis more than ever this year, and taken time to try and get the whole team working together sensibly. 

I'm also not obsessed with the 3D engine looking or playing exactly like real football, because at this stage, with the calculations needed, that's pretty impossible. For what it is though, it delivers well. It does need small tweaks in certain areas that I'm sure SI are aware of, but overall it's a fantastic effort this year. 

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4 minutes ago, Armistice said:

I just don’t understand why you have to post every single time there are people debating the game and say how incredible it is. It is, but for yourself.

Erm, because it's a public discussion forum, where people give their opinions. I try to balance the hyperbolic nonsense you read on this thread in particular. 

Or should this part of the forum only be for people who want to crucify the game? 

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1 minute ago, Armistice said:

There is no one crucifying the game

Okay dokey, that's where this particular exchange ends. 

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2 minutes ago, Armistice said:

Maybe we all should be happy clappers and continously post how great the game is about 4-5 times per day “to counter-balance”.

What we should all do is provide constructive feedback on the game, not each other - whether positive or negative.

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IMHO the only constructive way to comment the ME is posting a detailed description of the problems in the dedicated bug forum, including pkm.

It would also be great to motivate why this is an issue of ME linking images or videos of how this particular situation is IRL.

Edited by Delvi
Typos

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hace 5 minutos, Dagenham_Dave dijo:

Okay dokey, that's where this particular exchange ends. 

It would be good for us that are not 100% happy with the ME and keep posting on a constructive way our findings for SI to try to keep improving, to see your tactics and videos of them in action to learn from you how to properly use this ME and not to have any of the issues that most of us are reporting and that SI is investigating.  I'd love to be proven wrong with real examples of the ME behaving as they want and that is realistic, to learn the same way we give examples, pkm and videos to SI along with our opinions, you can search for mines in the bug forums but I don't see yours.

Edited by Icy

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Just now, Icy said:

 I'd love to be proven wrong with real examples of the ME behaving as they want and that is realistic

The user @rain94 has posted loads of examples on this thread alone of the engine working the way it should, showcasing some glorious passages of play. 

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2 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

The user @rain94 has posted loads of examples on this thread alone of the engine working the way it should, showcasing some glorious passages of play. 

Wasn't that ME 2016 and not the current one? 

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20 hours ago, rain94 said:

I am overcome by the feeling of dread whenever this screen pops up every week. I want to select my players for the B team but the interface is so cumbersome. I click the drop down box to select a player and then the window popup keeps closing and I have to click on it again to assign the next player. It's so dreadful that I just say F-it, not going to be bothered with it when I know I need to select them for the B/U19 teams. Anyone feel the same? The previous interface in FM19 was perfect.

image.png

I agree, it is more cumbersome, but they've tweaked in since the last update so you can choose multiple players at once. This is only if you want to give everyone the same playing time, however. I also have no idea what the pitch view is supposed to represent as it always puts players in the wrong positions. It's a big step backwards for this feature. 

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