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Neil Brock

Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread

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I'm noticing some improvements in the way my team are playing now.  I sold some players and I stopped doing press conferences and and pre match briefings or letting my assistant do them.  Made a few signings too.

Last couple of matches the match engine has looked better/more realistic.  Leads me to speculate maybe there's too much emphasis placed on on manager's reputation, morale, and press conferences effecting the morale.  Of course there should be an effect on all these things however it seemed before they were effecting players doing the most simple things, so maybe it's too much effect or effecting the wrong things.

I always play as a manager with no experience as a lot of us like to make it as realistic as possible because you create a fantasy in your head, so you can pretend you got in through coaching, so I have the coaching licenses first rate but not the previous experience, would feel like cheating any other way.  Maybe this is having too much effect.   Shutting down from press conferences, briefings and talking to the media at all seemed to notice an improvement.  I've been playing the games for many years though and have an experienced player so maybe they are having too much effect.

It wasn't my tactics because I'm doing significantly better with the same tactics, it's just now my players are doing less ridiculously stupid things.    I had top players previously though and they were doing most of the basics terribly, this leads me to believe maybe the balances aren't 100 percent right in terms of how certain things effect play.  I appreciate it's a complex and difficult thing to do, but that's my experience and hopefully sharing it can help in future versions or patches here. 

The game has a lot of positives but some of the big issues made it a bit harder to enjoy this year, fantastic potential and there's things that are improvements but the foundation of the ME is obviously very important so can impact the experience greatly.

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Please please please fix the ME. I’m tired of watching side nettings and long balls over the defence. 

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6 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Right now analyst reports in the game offer some major help, you just need to remove set pieces and crosses from the source of assists and you should be able to come to a number. FM20 made it easier, though for some I reckon they don't want to take the necessary steps and will just use whatever's convenient. I think with a little bit of effort, you should be able to craft something very useful with the analyst report.

I'll give this a shot. What would be also useful, and some seem to not understand this:

The data analyst considering how many shots Teams face on average (and how many they create). This will fluctuate, but from thereon he may be able to roughly estimate how many Goals the Team may be going to score / concede until the end of the Season. The reason for this: How often do you see Players of this Focusing on individual Matches, rather than the bigger Picture? Every single however few times the (defensive) AI scores from ist few shots (by tactical choice!) it must be the AI "cheating". Meanwhile, the many clean Sheets aren't even being registered. This is nonsensical. 

Imagine that were Pep. His CIty side usually concedes between 5-6 shots per match average. Over 40 Matches that is roughly ~200 shots. THerefore, it is expected that at some Points of the Season he will concede Goals. Each shot, however poor, has the Chance of being a Goal. Thus, in the 2017/2018 Season he conceded 6.2 shots per match average for a total of 235 shots. Going by the average expectation of 1 Goal in 10 shots, that'd be 23 Goals conceded expected. (He actually did concede 27, possibly a byproduct of his exposing style of Football which was exploited by Atletico back at Bayern already -- and in all of the Matches he conceded, of few shots, what a surprise, including 3 Goals off 5 against United). But it's not About exact numbers, it's About Rough estimations. Let that data Analyst git to work and earn his Price tag, already. :D 

5 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

I had a player tap in to an empty net from 6 yards and it didnt count as a "clear cut chance"...

Cut backs and similar are/used to be oft not flagged as CCC likewise. That's both a far easier Chance than your average 1 vs 1, as the keeper is either taken out of the Picture already, or is seriously wrong-footed. Both are also easier to convert in-game. A 1 vs 1, as the Name gives it away, sees the keeper typically still fully game (and usually in a significant Advantage over the Forward). Needless to say, in contrast, ALL of These too frequent one on ones marked red were counted as CCCs (even those from suspect angles, which arguably should be considered 1 in 5 chances with a realistic balance). Blue dots were the headers under pressure and blocked shots from the set piece.

2HCSDGR.png{

Tap-ins into an actually open net from my end are About the only chances in a match of Football where that "sitter" term used so oftenly in TV commentary actually applies. 

Some.

Occasionally. ;) 




 

Edited by Svenc

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4 hours ago, hazzabish said:

I'm definitely noticing lower assist numbers from the widemen and wingbacks than on previous versions. That might tie-in with them shooting too much, even when on support duty etc.

My wing backs are acting like the players in the Space Jam movie. Stripped of all talents. Nearing the end of the season and they are mediocre at best. However, my wingers/IFs are contributing very well.

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Question: The 20.1.4 update? 

Was it not available to those with the 20.1.3 update? Or whatever the numbers were?

As I never noticed it on the Steam Store.

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2 hours ago, thejay said:

I agree completely the me is so dull and predicable, wide to the fullbacks 95% of the time. 

 

 

FBs should see plenty of the ball but agree on they being massively over-involved for all tactical setups and getting way too many assists. 

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16 hours ago, Armistice said:

My DLF has received 15 passes in a match against West Ham United, 5 passes when facing Leicester City, 10 when facing Brighton and 11 when facing Aston Villa. The central play seriously needs to be addressed in the next patch.

Except that's absolutely in line with real life stats. Man City dominate the Premier league with 60%+ possession this season. 

Aguero averages 15 passes and Gabriel Jesus 12.

I think one of the biggest problems with FM is people have a very poor understanding of actual real life football and expect FM to be more arcadey like FIFA.

No problem with that, but it's not what SI are aiming for. 

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vor 30 Minuten schrieb ViG1980:

FBs should see plenty of the ball but agree on they being massively over-involved for all tactical setups and getting way too many assists. 

When your fbs are the most relevant players for every attack, more dangerous than any top winger or striker or attacker something is not right 

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3 minutes ago, thejay said:

When your fbs are the most relevant players for every attack, more dangerous than any top winger or striker or attacker something is not right 

Except again that's how nearly all professional football teams create overloads IRL. 

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21 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said:

Except that's absolutely in line with real life stats. Man City dominate the Premier league with 60%+ possession this season. 

Aguero averages 15 passes and Gabriel Jesus 12.

I think one of the biggest problems with FM is people have a very poor understanding of actual real life football and expect FM to be more arcadey like FIFA.

No problem with that, but it's not what SI are aiming for. 

And you misunderstood the post you quoted. The post was talking about passes received, not passes made.

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29 minutes ago, El_sambo said:

I setup as Blackburn and tried dack in every number 10 role possible. I had my instructions to play through the middle. I really wanted to see him be my main man. But after 15 games of 0 goals and 0 assists and everytime a highlight came up I knew he'd have little to zero involvement   I just knew I was wasting my time. Not one single highlight of him creating a chance from a through ball or running at the defence. Just zero. 

It's like the people who design this now are expecting everyone just to setup like Liverpool and make it all about the fullbacks bombing on. It's really dull and predicable each and every highlight 

I feel your pain but it would be really useful if you could upload some PKMs on the ME bugs board with timed instances where he was ignored 

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Only played a few friendlies but first impressions weren't good. 

Besides the stutter every 5s i found the ME even more repetitive than FM19 which was perhaps my least favorite of the last few years. 

In one game i actually scored three goals in a row exactly the same. An hattrick all shots from the edge of the area. Basically they all started from a pass into the wing back who is always in acres of space, runs down the flank with the ball, passes to the mezzala on the edge of the box and he scores from there. 

Sure my tactic (4312 Sarri style) is to exploit attacking wingbacks in the first place but the AI defends way too narrow and let's my wingbacks have free roam. My players also prefer to pass to the free wingback rather to attempt a riskier pass to a playmaker in the middle or channels. 

What happens is zero inside play and every goal/dangerous play coming from a wingback or set piece. 

 

Also, balls over the centerbacks still seem unrealistic. There's other non ME issues but well. 

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Is anyone else still getting loads of penalties ? I got to try the patch for the first time last night (continued beta save) and I have had 13 penalties (for me) in 6 games

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16 hours ago, Armistice said:

My DLF has received 15 passes in a match against West Ham United, 5 passes when facing Leicester City, 10 when facing Brighton and 11 when facing Aston Villa. The central play seriously needs to be addressed in the next patch.

Have a look at his touches in the analysis

According to this https://www.premierleague.com/players/3960/player/overview he's had 395 touches over 12 games, assuming he's played every minute of every game that's a shade under an average of 33 touches a game

For reference, TAA & Robertson are top of the list with 1,320 & 1,239 respectively  

 

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19 minutes ago, Robioto said:

And you misunderstood the post you quoted. The post was talking about passes received, not passes made.

Doh! That's my bad.

But I'd still argue around 15-20 touches would be around normal for a striker. I can't actually find the real start though. 

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7 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said:

Doh! That's my bad.

But I'd still argue around 15-20 touches would be around normal for a striker. I can't actually find the real start though. 

I've just linked it above :thup: Hard to figure out exactly per game though

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43 minutes ago, thejay said:

When your fbs are the most relevant players for every attack, more dangerous than any top winger or striker or attacker something is not right 

Yep. I agreed with you in my post. 

Edited by ViG1980

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12 minutes ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

Is anyone else still getting loads of penalties ? I got to try the patch for the first time last night (continued beta save) and I have had 13 penalties (for me) in 6 games

I would say not at your level, and less than before the patch, but still too many.

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8 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I've just linked it above :thup: Hard to figure out exactly per game though

Whoscored tracks them each game, but not overall, so you could go through each match and check.

It's a tricky one to follow, as this will, or at the very least should, vary massively in FM and real life depending on how a team operates. Bobby Firmino is averaging about 46 touches a game, getting as high 56. And that's a proper link forward there. You almost need to watch each game and look at when a forward doesn't get the ball in FM, and why.

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1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Whoscored tracks them each game, but not overall, so you could go through each match and check.

It's a tricky one to follow, as this will, or at the very least should, vary massively in FM and real life depending on how a team operates. Bobby Firmino is averaging about 46 touches a game, getting as high 56. And that's a proper link forward there. You almost need to watch each game and look at when a forward doesn't get the ball in FM, and why.

I couldn't see them on Who scored, I'll have to have a harder look :thup:

I tried doing that with PKM's & it's an absolute nightmare, trying to pick out things that don't happen compared to things that do 

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1 minute ago, Johnny Ace said:

I couldn't see them on Who scored, I'll have to have a harder look :thup:

I tried doing that with PKM's & it's an absolute nightmare, trying to pick out things that don't happen compared to things that do 

You need to go to the to player screen, then a match hes played in, then the match centre and player statistics

For example: https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1376076/LiveStatistics/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Liverpool-Tottenham

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17 minutes ago, duesouth said:

I would say not at your level, and less than before the patch, but still too many.

Weird one, I've played 2 more since that post and it now sits at 16 penalties for me in 8 games.

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13 minutes ago, yandex said:

Tons of penalties. Most seem to be missed.

 

Full backs and inside forwards drive forward and smash the ball into the side netting about 15 times per game, half of those times a striker is there completely free for the tap-in but they NEVER pass it. 
The players prefer taking shots from completely ridiculous angles over attempting crosses/cutbacks to completely open players.

1v1s happen countless times per game, and seem to be missed 9/10 times. Maybe the strikers only miss 8/10 times when their morale is superb - still ridiculous misses all around. Often blasted 10 ft wide despite being completely alone with the keeper with no defender for miles.

Shots way, way too many in 90% of games. Completely unrealistic to see 20 shots on target between the teams in almost every game.

Tone down the amount of chances created perhaps? Make 1 on 1s less frequent, yet more successful. If 1v1s with the keeper were converted at a realistic rate in game, every game would finish 6-6. 

It's a breath of fresh air whenever I get a game without 15 huge chances per game.
 

Are you still playing as is or are you holding out for the patch? I just feel like I'm wasting results grinding out like this. 

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Just now, srvngrc said:

At least can you please give a time interval for next ME update?

They never do but it usually comes late December 

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Just now, Johnny Ace said:

They never do but it usually comes late December 

Jeeeeez, it's in desperate need of a fix 

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1 dakika önce, Johnny Ace said:

They never do but it usually comes late December 

Late December is too late :) 

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17 hours ago, Iwabik said:

One interesting thing I noticed, although it might be just coincidence. I've been fiddling with my tactic a bit and decided to move my striker slighlty to the left and... he scored 15 goals (that's more than in any previous season) in next 10 games despite scoring only once in previous 8 games. I fully expect it to be just a weird coincidence, but thought it was interesting thing to share.

I finished my season. After playing for most of the season slightly to the left, my striker scored 28 goals, where as in three previous seasons combined he got 40 (15+11+14). Still, can just be a coincidence.

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Just how it works fellas, just look at the bug boards, they've gotta be looked into, replicated, fixed, tested, tweaked, takes time, the more time the better really 

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17 minutes ago, yandex said:

Full backs and inside forwards drive forward and smash the ball into the side netting about 15 times per game

Genuine question for you and others who see similar issues.  With regards to fullbacks / wingbacks demonstrating this behaviour, what role/duty do you give them; what Team Mentality do you select; what Traits do the players you use in this position have; and (importantly) why do you choose those settings?

The reason I ask is my Wingbacks rarely (if ever) demonstrate this issue, but I tend to give my Wingbacks a Defend duty especially if I use an aggressive mentality and a player with the Trait to get forward whenever possible.  My Wingbacks still attack, they overlap my wide players ahead, they just pick and choose when to do it and are much more effective in defence.  I normally see around 15-20 crosses per match (in total from all my players) and shots at goal from my wingbacks are rare than hens teeth.

If you use a similar set up then that's probably something for the Bugs forum.  But if your set up is more aggressive, why do you feel the need to be more aggressive?  Perhaps that's what the tactical descriptions are leading you to believe you need?  There's a combination of factors at play here and it's that combination which can be very important and not always obvious.

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40 minutes ago, yandex said:

Tons of penalties. Most seem to be missed.

Full backs and inside forwards drive forward and smash the ball into the side netting about 15 times per game, half of those times a striker is there completely free for the tap-in but they NEVER pass it. 
The players prefer taking shots from completely ridiculous angles over attempting crosses/cutbacks to completely open players.

1v1s happen countless times per game, and seem to be missed 9/10 times. Maybe the strikers only miss 8/10 times when their morale is superb - still ridiculous misses all around. Often blasted 10 ft wide despite being completely alone with the keeper with no defender for miles.

Shots way, way too many in 90% of games. Completely unrealistic to see 20 shots on target between the teams in almost every game.

Tone down the amount of chances created perhaps? Make 1 on 1s less frequent, yet more successful. If 1v1s with the keeper were converted at a realistic rate in game, every game would finish 6-6. 

It's a breath of fresh air whenever I get a game without 15 huge chances per game.
 

Best post I've seen yet 👍

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3 minutes ago, yandex said:

My wingbacks are on support duty and I usually play with either a balanced or cautious game-plan. No PPMs on them.

Does it really matter what setting they're on, though? Should any duty in the game lead to players thinking it's a good idea to take shots from stupid angles over easy sideway passes for the tap-in - over and over again? I must've missed where it said "will shoot from 80 degree angles over and over again" when I pick a mentality/duty..

yea exactly, I dont think any fullback in real world would shoot instead of crossing even their manager told them to do all out attack.

they can say FM doesnt represents real life though 

Edited by robinthebest

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34 minutes ago, yandex said:

Does it really matter what setting they're on, though?

I don't know, that's why I'm asking.  Frequency of such players taking shots from tight angles will be affected by the frequency of which they get into those positions and certain combinations will affect that frequency.  So I'm not looking at the frequency with which they take shots, just thinking about the frequency by which they get into those positions.  Two different things.

(-1 for over use of the word "frequency" :p).

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Just a heads up, wings back on support or attack ( without any modification to the standard template ) never cross the ball , they just act like wingers/forwards in the final third, they either cutback or shoot from angle.

Now, i don't mind this , because in the previous version they were just crossing machines which severely inflated the crossing per game stats.

If you want your wingbacks to cross just use standard Fullback support or attack, or Wingbacks with cross more, dribble less instructions. That's what i did and now they actually cross the ball when in position to do so.


I strongly believe they made the wingback/fullbacks more flexible because of the new playing style also introduced for AI managers. You could not really play a tiki taka style in FM 19 because wingbacks never recycled possesion, they just always crossed the ball. Now you can actually make possesion tactics with ease.

Edited by andu1

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26 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Genuine question for you and others who see similar issues.  With regards to fullbacks / wingbacks demonstrating this behaviour, what role/duty do you give them; what Team Mentality do you select; what Traits do the players you use in this position have; and (importantly) why do you choose those settings?

The reason I ask is my Wingbacks rarely (if ever) demonstrate this issue, but I tend to give my Wingbacks a Defend duty especially if I use an aggressive mentality and a player with the Trait to get forward whenever possible.  My Wingbacks still attack, they overlap my wide players ahead, they just pick and choose when to do it and are much more effective in defence.  I normally see around 15-20 crosses per match (in total from all my players) and shots at goal from my wingbacks are rare than hens teeth.

If you use a similar set up then that's probably something for the Bugs forum.  But if your set up is more aggressive, why do you feel the need to be more aggressive?  Perhaps that's what the tactical descriptions are leading you to believe you need?  There's a combination of factors at play here and it's that combination which can be very important and not always obvious.

I've played around with combos of FB(s), FB(a) and WB(s) most of the time, on balanced mentality (usually with an IW(s) on one flank and IF(a) on the other), or positive against lesser sides, and although they're not shooting into the side netting from the byline 15 times per game it's definitely happening a few times. I'll try with WB(d) and see if it changes their behaviour.

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3 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Just how it works fellas, just look at the bug boards, they've gotta be looked into, replicated, fixed, tested, tweaked, takes time, the more time the better really 

I would rather they took a little more time to get it right.  They released the beta - there were too many 1 on 1's, the beta feedback thread was negative - so they had to change it for full release, but with the fixed date, it was a little rushed.  The domino effect with ME changes has happened and we have this.  If they rush to fix this, we'll get a different set of issues.  As frustrated as I am with it (and I think there are a greater number of issues in this ME than the original beta ME - I got into my beta save big time, but am on my 4th save since the big ME change - can't get into any of them), I'd rather it was thought through and tested fully.  I do understand with such complex code, it will never be perfect, but as enjoyable as possible to play.

If I were SI, which I'm not cause I can't code, I'd probably roll it back to the original beta ME and try to unpick the 1 on 1's in a different way - as, for me at least, this fix has caused multiple issues and it's not as fun to play.

I'll have one more go tonight, but might go back to FM19, or watch Netflix, until they patch it.  Bit annoying, but if I'm not enjoying the game, no sense in coming home from :seagull: at work, to more of the same at home!

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I've seen somebody else say this but it is almost like there are two different MEs out there which people are experiencing...

My own personal experience, I started with the 1st Beata release, has been very positive.

The first release had way too many long shots flying in, which whilst enjoyable to see Klich smacking them in from 25 yards every game, was not very realistic and was quickly fixed.

Whilst I didn't see an increase in penalties on one of the releases I did some very soft ones given. This seems to have gone away but that could be because I got promoted to the premiership, so better refs (in theory) and VAR.

I've seen 1 v 1s scored and missed (FM19 I seem to remember nearly all were missed)

Penatlies scored and missed (around 60% scored for my team which might be too low but might also be my players)

Wingers and full backs hitting the side netting, yes I see this happening but I also see pull backs and crosses resulting in my attacking players with a scoring opportunity including some tap ins after some delightful approach play. I just think of this more as a failed cross rather than an impossible shot and don't get too upset about it. For sure though this would be one area which could be looked at to improve at least on the animation of it.

I see a lot less of my defenders heading straight to the opposition when they have time on the ball, still happens on occasion as it does in real life, and I base that on decision making, composure etc.

Way more goals scored now through good build up play with a pass into my forward or a cross from the wing, still get the occasional worldy long shot going in but balance to me seems to be about right.

Do I still get games where I dominate the opposition and miss sitter after sitter and then they score with their first shot on target? Yes I do every now and again. Is it frustrating? Yes damn well right it is. Is it a game breaker? No because you only have to look at my avatar and know I've seen enough of that in real life over the last 12 months. And that is really frustrating... I'm sure Bielsa has felt like doing a rage quit every now and then...

 

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A major issue I've got is ratings are absolutely awful for anyone but players who don't score or assist. I won the league and Cup treble in Singapore and had 1 player average over 7.

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24 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Genuine question for you and others who see similar issues.  With regards to fullbacks / wingbacks demonstrating this behaviour, what role/duty do you give them; what Team Mentality do you select; what Traits do the players you use in this position have; and (importantly) why do you choose those settings?

The reason I ask is my Wingbacks rarely (if ever) demonstrate this issue, but I tend to give my Wingbacks a Defend duty especially if I use an aggressive mentality and a player with the Trait to get forward whenever possible.  My Wingbacks still attack, they overlap my wide players ahead, they just pick and choose when to do it and are much more effective in defence.  I normally see around 15-20 crosses per match (in total from all my players) and shots at goal from my wingbacks are rare than hens teeth.

If you use a similar set up then that's probably something for the Bugs forum.  But if your set up is more aggressive, why do you feel the need to be more aggressive?  Perhaps that's what the tactical descriptions are leading you to believe you need?  There's a combination of factors at play here and it's that combination which can be very important and not always obvious.

I also have no issues with the Wingbacks shooting into the side netting or at sharp angles. Here is my right back and his PPM's.  I play him as WB-Attack and I play at-most with a positive mentality, only increasing it to attack and very attacking if I'm behind and the match is in the latter stages. I also overlap rightside. I very rarely see him or the left back for that matter shoot. Eli had 5 shots (2 OT) in the first game, 3 shots (3 OT) in the second game, and 3 shots in the 5th game. In the other games he hasn't shot at all.  Here is a screenshot of the game when he had 5 shots.    

image.png

image.png

image.png

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