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Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread

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1 minute ago, Serptimo said:

If any manager or match analyst on tv came out and tried to say that possession and shots on target were not a good metric to how well a team played, they'd be laughed off, and rightly so. sorry, but trying to defend this current Me with this weak argument is straying way too far into fanboyism 

https://sporza.be/nl/matches/voetbal/proximus-league/2019-2020/periode-1/03/oh-leuven-beerschot-va/

Visitors had 80% possession in the opening 15 minutes but could just not break into the final third. OHL scored from its first two chances, one from a corner and one from a very fluent counterattack.

https://sporza.be/nl/2019/09/30/karel-fraeye-over-topper-tussen-ohl-en-beerschot/

Same teams, same spectacle. Beerschot had the ball, a ridiculous twentysomething attempts, but apart from one that hit the woodwork and a penalty kick that went in, only one or two of those looked really dangerous. OHL barely created anything but scored some very clean goals from what were actually the better chances. In both cases, they recorded a deserved win. 

Quality trumps quantity, every time. 

 

That said, I don't think this ME is perfect. I do think that the comments are way too harsh and that it is by far the most polished ME I've ever seen. 

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12 minutes ago, Serptimo said:

If any manager or match analyst on tv came out and tried to say that possession and shots on target were not a good metric to how well a team played, they'd be laughed off, and rightly so. sorry, but trying to defend this current Me with this weak argument is straying way too far into fanboyism 

Yeah, that's why TV match analysts tend to be the laughed off by actual analysts. :D (Granted, it's easy to get shots on target purely from the set piece as to FM, and headers under pressure are oft easy pick ups for the keeper, but that'd me going into repeat mode). Bottom line, not every shot is equal opportunity. Never has been, never will be.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/feb/24/football-numbers-game-gary-neville
https://statsbomb.com/2016/10/xcommentary/
https://www.theringer.com/soccer/2018/6/27/17511596/2018-world-cup-germany-south-korea-mexico-sweden-elimination

 

Edited by Svenc

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1 minute ago, Svenc said:

Yeah, that's why TV match analysts tend to be the laughed at by actual analysts.

And some knowledgeable players. Once saw a former england keeper take offence to commentators who keep saying, "the keeper should have stopped that".  And he goes they obviously haven't been keepers.

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Just now, roykela said:

If possession were a good metric then Arsenal should really be higher up the table irl :D
Possession doesn't necessarily indicate anything other than that the team saw a lot of the ball. What did they actually do with it?
Shots on target could be plentiful. But how good were those shots?  You could have 1,10, 20, 60 shots on target. But if they were all terrible shots that didn't really threaten at all then it wouldn't say much, if you judge the numbers by their face value.
Why, when and how are very important.

Arguing a point does not equal defending the ME.

and the issue people are having is that those shots on goal are clear goal scoring chances. Issues I'm having with this ME are a) what lots of people are complaining about, the silly shots from players i.e. missing relatively easy chances, or trying ridiculous shots from impossible angles and b) the way players seem to ignore tactics . asking them to work the ball into the box, run less with the ball, pass shorter etc etc seems to have zero effect. 

basically, if your team dominates poss.,  then surely you dont need to worry about its ball retention ability. If it then goes on to create chances that are missed, what? how do you remedy that? If my tactic makes chances and keeps the ball, why would I change it? but if the players are incapable of scoring from what seems to be easy chances, and those players are world class, how do you remedy that. That is the issue people  are getting frustrated with. The single biggest metric most people judge how well a team played isn't a good metric? That's an issue with the game as far as I'm concerned. 

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8 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Interesting first post. It's almost as if it's an alias account...

almost as if I have been on many game forums and seen the same tired deflections of game issues from the zealots . constructive criticism is a thing, no need to take every negative point being raised so personally. 

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1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

And some knowledgeable players. Once saw a former england keeper take offence to commentators who keep saying, "the keeper should have stopped that".  And he goes they obviously haven't been keepers.

Oh yeah, there's a piece on that in almost keeper biography I've read. That said, great ex-Players in General areN't necessarily superior analysists in General -- see the piece about commentary above. You hear so much stuff on TV that isn't Football reality it's unreal. To be fair, those guys are there to sell and entertain in parts, "educating" an audience may be secondary objective. Television Football is becoming an increasingly expensive (and exclusive) piece of Entertainment competing against other pieces of Entertainment. Therefore, "HE's GOT TO SCORE" is just better Drama than "If given the same chance over and over, he may have scored that About half of the time".
 

Plus, FM's in-game Analysis is a tad limited. Actually, it apes a lot of the bad TV stuff. This is possibly done due to Players being familiar with such. However, I cannot imagine Pep logging on to Whoscored and watching from the shot stats how well his Team presumably played. Nor would Arsene listen to the TV commentary yellingn "HOW DID HE MISS THAT?" at every other shot. And so the "Problems" persist… This type of Player would never be able to make sense of my counter attacking Leicester 2016ish. Granted, that was helped by the AI barely protecting ist attacking Corners often. However, the attacking top sides averaged a ton of shots against us (25ish+) for a goal, whilst we averaged 3 Goals against them from ~10. Highlight being a 4-1 at City. Seasonal pass completion Ratio under 70% btw. Oft as low as 30% of Possession.

 

Edited by Svenc

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3 minutes ago, Serptimo said:

and the issue people are having is that those shots on goal are clear goal scoring chances. Issues I'm having with this ME are a) what lots of people are complaining about, the silly shots from players i.e. missing relatively easy chances, or trying ridiculous shots from impossible angles and b) the way players seem to ignore tactics . asking them to work the ball into the box, run less with the ball, pass shorter etc etc seems to have zero effect. 

basically, if your team dominates poss.,  then surely you dont need to worry about its ball retention ability. If it then goes on to create chances that are missed, what? how do you remedy that? If my tactic makes chances and keeps the ball, why would I change it? but if the players are incapable of scoring from what seems to be easy chances, and those players are world class, how do you remedy that. That is the issue people  are getting frustrated with. The single biggest metric most people judge how well a team played isn't a good metric? That's an issue with the game as far as I'm concerned. 

Clear goal scoring chance is one thing. It's a clear chance. But how good is that chance. When i was a goalkeeper i loved 1v1s. Strikers found it very hard scoring because i forced them to shoot where i wanted them to. I had a very high success rate in 1v1 situations as a goalkeeper.
Silly shots can be so much. It can be an outright silly attempt. It can also be a miskick. Bad luck etc.
Ridiculous shots from impossible angles happen. In this ME probably more than it should. I don't have the issue in my game but i know it is an issue.
Players aren't ignoring my tactics. When i tell them to work the ball into the box they do exactly that. So much that i had to take it off again. Run less with the ball i don't use. Pass shorter i have used and i had to take that off too, as my players took too long getting into the final third with that instruction. Tried it with a higher tempo but my players couldn't handle that. We lost the ball too many times.
Keep in mind that i'm talking in context with my team and instructions.

If your team dominate possession and create chances then good. If they keep missing it then it might also be the players themselves. But are they creating good chances? Even if you take the goalkeeper out and have an open goal there still isn't a 100% chance that there will be a goal.
Most people don't have the understanding of what it actually means. And TV analysts prove that point (even former players) time and time again.
A seemingly good chance might not be an actual good chance.

Had a discussion about Özil one time with a buddy. He kept on going about how much Özil was running. I agreed. He was doing a lot of running but what does that mean? What i see is Özil doing a lot of "wrong running". He's not very efficient with his running.
I would've liked him to save some energy and run a bit less. Start moving and running more intelligently. What i saw was Özil wasting gas.

Also keep in mind that i'm not saying the ME is without issues. My point is that there is more to it than just "they keep missing. ME is bugged".

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5 minutes ago, roykela said:

If your team dominate possession and create chances then good. If they keep missing it then it might also be the players themselves. But are they creating good chances? Even if you take the goalkeeper out and have an open goal there still isn't a 100% chance that there will be a goal.

Which is the Crux of the matter. If FM were correct, even the better chances would be mostly at best 50/50 Affairs.  That's why Matches against an actual run of Play in Football are legion. They should be reasonably common place as to FM. However, on FM, if Things persist, the root cause is oft something else. The game simply does not simulate the combined Forces of Benzema and CR7 barely scoring from over 100 shots in La Liga for Five months running (2017/2018 Season). Er, did I say shots? I meant xG 15-20+. For reasons that should be most obvious. :D 

Edited by Svenc

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I only noticed this in my third season apparently, but why is there no option to accept this transfer offer? Or am I missing something? 

20191124203008_1.jpg

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I agree the argument of shots/possession should = good result is flawed, as happens every year from a gut reaction from frustration. 

That said, it could easily be compounded by the lack of final third movement and be a valid complaint. 

I'm not a big fan of pure statistical analysists used to determine if the game is realistic or not. One on ones are a good example where people over rate their conversion rate irl, but it's fair to comment on when it's a clear issue for the majority in context when you're watching. 

Same with striker goals, they may be line with real life numbers, but the lack of variety of where they come from is obvious to anyone that watches the ME with comprehensive highlights. 

Edited by dannyfc

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Literal domination in every aspect........ Except the forward role. That looks dreadful. You'd think he spent the match on the touchline.

Capture.thumb.PNG.9121ccb88a00c8aba7279ee80f5a9dd0.PNG

On top of that, here's the top scorers for the league. Dan James, of all people was my top scorer. Only what, 3 recognized centre forwards?

 

Wingers.thumb.PNG.fa865f7a573e5450f74bec199e180515.PNG

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4 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Which is the Crux of the matter. If FM were correct, even the better chances would be mostly at best 50/50 Affairs.  That's why Matches against an actual run of Play in Football are legion. They should be reasonably common place as to FM. However, on FM, if Things persist, the root cause is oft something else. The game simply does not simulate the combined Forces of Benzema and CR7 barely scoring from over 100 shots in La Liga for Five months running (2017/2018 Season). Er, did I say shots? I meant xG 15-20+. For reasons that should be most obvious. :D 

I dread to think about what it would be like here if FM actually was realistic :D
I'm following that thread in the 2nd link as well as i find it very interesting. I'm enjoying reading it.
But that Man C v Spurs game linked is a very good example amongst other brilliant examples.

On a sidenote; I understand that many people discussing real football, and people here discussing FM, don't have a real understanding.
They pretty much take shallow MoTD analysis as gospel and why shouldn't they?! People are being fed superficial and, at times, wrong conclusions based on bad analytics.
But i digress. I shall speak no more about that.....at least, not here :D

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This was surprising, luckily not the best prospect. From what I can see, this is before they enter the game, right? 

20191124210059_1.jpg

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26 minutes ago, dannyfc said:

I'm not a big fan of pure statistical analysists used to determine if the game is realistic or not. One on ones are a good example where people over rate their conversion rate irl, but it's fair to comment on when it's a clear issue for the majority in context when you're watching. 

Yes, absolutely. Stats are just a tool that can put Things into perspective. That is, if you find the Right ones. :D The one on ones for instance to me are (in parts) an issue of frequency. But as a lot of them also seem to come About as the widish Players have it too easy to get past the last line; they are also not seldom  finished at tough angles (1vs1s marked red, the blue dots are the headers etc. from the set piece). Here is where stats come in. At average one on ones are regarded as 1 in 3 chances. Reasonably tougher ones 1 in 4. I've probably also demonstrated that there are ones that are finished as high as 1 in 2 a couple pages back. It's not unreasonable to consider at least the ones at really tough angles to be 1 in 5 kinda chances.

There's also lots to be said About the decision making (shots into the side netting from These angles), however if the wide Players could be contained easier, that would likely tone it some down already in itself. Plus, SI should check for the conversion Ratio and enquire with their Partner STATS. They may have lots of data on that Kind of Thing. Hopefully the Right ones. :D 

Edited by Svenc

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26 minutes ago, roykela said:

On a sidenote; I understand that many people discussing real football, and people here discussing FM, don't have a real understanding.
 

My stock Reply as to how "useful" shots + Possession stats were has become as follows:

Sit your dog in front of your PC.
Start a save.
Hit the space bar ad infinitum.
Every time an AI Opponent sits Deep to spoil and make it harder to find space, you will have more of each by the AI's tactical choice.

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What's going on here then?

Start of second season, 8 games in and we're sitting second in the league having already played away at Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal

vzUX0v1.jpg?1

Only to find this in the Club Vision

DnGMSOQ.jpg?1

Disappointed that we're not challenging for the premier league!!Bit unfair isn't it?

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1 minute ago, axehan1 said:

What's going on here then?

Start of second season, 8 games in and we're sitting second in the league having already played away at Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal

vzUX0v1.jpg?1

Only to find this in the Club Vision

DnGMSOQ.jpg?1

Disappointed that we're not challenging for the premier league!!Bit unfair isn't it?

You may want to log that in the bugs forum, seems off indeed. :)

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All this talk of possession domination with 30-40 shots on goal which some players assume = win, I think something like Rashidi's SIBOT analysis in game would be most useful 

The Action Zone analysis is a useful tool too to see which areas of the pitch you have control of 

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Out of curiosity was the beta ME any different to what we have now? I know I saw alot of stuff regarding central play being decent by streamers and ofc the FM one. 

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One interesting thing I noticed, although it might be just coincidence. I've been fiddling with my tactic a bit and decided to move my striker slighlty to the left and... he scored 15 goals (that's more than in any previous season) in next 10 games despite scoring only once in previous 8 games. I fully expect it to be just a weird coincidence, but thought it was interesting thing to share.

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Just now, BigV said:

Out of curiosity was the beta ME any different to what we have now? I know I saw alot of stuff regarding central play being decent by streamers and ofc the FM one. 

Yes, we had wing play switching in the first ME 

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2 minutes ago, Iwabik said:

One interesting thing I noticed, although it might be just coincidence. I've been fiddling with my tactic a bit and decided to move my striker slighlty to the left and... he scored 15 goals (that's more than in any previous season) in next 10 games despite scoring only once in previous 8 games. I fully expect it to be just a weird coincidence, but thought it was interesting thing to share.

Would be interesting to see his touches of ball when central vs slightly wider 

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7 minutes ago, BigV said:

Out of curiosity was the beta ME any different to what we have now? I know I saw alot of stuff regarding central play being decent by streamers and ofc the FM one. 

In the beta it was a lot harder to do anything in the center IMO.  Fullbacks just whacked the ball over the midfield to each other.

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3 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Would be interesting to see his touches of ball when central vs slightly wider 

Central (he's 27)

XKWUttQ.png

After change

ju8Wwcq.png

 

So there seem to be a difference. He's playing as adv. forward. First he was all over the place now he stays on the left side of the pitch. Same goes for different matches.

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The board blocking sales because they feel you're not getting enough back is extremely frustrating. Not least because it's the AI that refuses to offer you fair sums for your players in comparison to when we want to buy players. That and the fact that 18 million for Jesse Lingard who isn't in my plans is better than shelling out 75k p/w for him to sit in the stands and watch. 

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Some of the player behaviour is much better than anything I saw in FM19, like this heading assist by Hazard leading straight to a Reus goal:

6cf28bc03353f8535f6dc42a08af7871.gif

 

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4 minutes ago, Kraftwerk said:

The board blocking sales because they feel you're not getting enough back is extremely frustrating. Not least because it's the AI that refuses to offer you fair sums for your players in comparison to when we want to buy players. That and the fact that 18 million for Jesse Lingard who isn't in my plans is better than shelling out 75k p/w for him to sit in the stands and watch. 

Create a buzz or loan him off. had it happen to me in the demo but i pushed the board to sell him (countless times offering him up) they give in eventually. Also happened for a buy of mine, pushed the board with the same exact offer and they gave in and accepted. It was sms for 85m. Use jesse as a winger on the right if you did on rotation, works a hell of alot, does a good press too cause of his workrate and movement off ball. 

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4 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

The old tutoring system in the way you describe was exploitable, which is one of the reasons we replaced it with mentoring.

What is it about mentoring that you find unclear? How would you improve this?

Well no matter what mentoring group my young players are in they always pick up positive and negative traits, despite me making sure I have great role models such as Milenkovic Savic and Ruben Dias. I know the old system might have been slighlty unrealistic but it was great that you could negate youngsters coming up with atrocious fundamentals with the right tutoring. That seems less doable now.

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb Rashidi:

Has anyone tried asking the chairman for player recommendations yet?

No, he is on the golf court all days.

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Just now, KUBI said:

No, he is on the golf court all days.

I got mine off the golf course :-) And he's been sensational.

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2 hours ago, roykela said:

I dread to think about what it would be like here if FM actually was realistic :D
I'm following that thread in the 2nd link as well as i find it very interesting. I'm enjoying reading it.
But that Man C v Spurs game linked is a very good example amongst other brilliant examples.

On a sidenote; I understand that many people discussing real football, and people here discussing FM, don't have a real understanding.
They pretty much take shallow MoTD analysis as gospel and why shouldn't they?! People are being fed superficial and, at times, wrong conclusions based on bad analytics.
But i digress. I shall speak no more about that.....at least, not here :D

Teach us, oh wise one.

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31 minutes ago, hazzabish said:

Well no matter what mentoring group my young players are in they always pick up positive and negative traits, despite me making sure I have great role models such as Milenkovic Savic and Ruben Dias. I know the old system might have been slighlty unrealistic but it was great that you could negate youngsters coming up with atrocious fundamentals with the right tutoring. That seems less doable now.

Personality adjustments can happen with or without mentoring. If you put 25 players in a squad together they will begin to learn from one another, positively or negatively. Mentoring is simply a tool to help you focus this. It allows you to bias Player A towards Player B, rather than leaving them to learn (or not) off whoever they please. It will not necessarily overcome every undesirable trait but it will allow you to better control the personality (and player traits) of your squad.

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1 hour ago, KlaaZ said:

This was surprising, luckily not the best prospect. From what I can see, this is before they enter the game, right? 

20191124210059_1.jpg

Junior Player Poaching - https://community.sigames.com/topic/495450-training-youth-intake-a-brief-guide-updated-for-fm20/?do=findComment&comment=12103553

In FM20 it is possible for Juniors to be poached from another club's youth system. This will most commonly occur from smaller reputation club > larger reputation club.
When this occurs a inbox item is received, offering a few details (similar to that of the Youth Intake Preview) on the player that has been poached. Poached players will appear in the next appropriate youth intake.

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1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

All this talk of possession domination with 30-40 shots on goal which some players assume = win, I think something like Rashidi's SIBOT analysis in game would be most useful 

Making a statistical distinction what percentage of the shots were off open Play, set pieces, counter attacks were already a start. :D Then the game could provide far more Logical match Feedback based on context also. If an extremely high percentage was purely from the set piece, a side may be struggling to break that defense down. If it's conceding a ton of counter shots, it may be far too open.

Additioinally, the game collecting the average amount of Players behind the ball upon a shot (or interception) would also explain why the AI (and I ;) ) can go with 20 shots without conceding. I mean, just anything. In Terms of match stats displayed during the game, the game's basically still stuck in the early 2000s. I agree with you though. Though I don't rate @Rashidi defensive of the CCCs. :P That said, some of the Feedback has also already been tried to be improved (tactics page in particular, listing pros and cons). 

 

 

Edited by Svenc

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On 22/11/2019 at 11:45, herne79 said:

You know what, I've had enough of people taking little pot shots at each other and Mods removing the posts.  So if you do it again you'll get 24 hours off.  Keep doing it and it'll be longer.

You're part of the toxic nature of the forum, it doesn't help the devs read through this game feedback thread for - you know - actual feedback about the game, and quite frankly we've all got better things to be doing than reading your BS.

Reposting this for the third time as some people still don't seem to be able to post without juvenile name calling.  That type of thing leads to resentment, starts arguments, distracts from actual game feedback, makes the developers and researchers less likely to engage with the community and so exacerbates the toxic nature infecting the forum.

Discuss the game as much as you like but start mudslinging and, as several people have already found out, I'll ban you for a day - longer if you carry on.  Please heed the warnings, you only have yourself to blame if you don't.

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If you are suscribed to match reports of say PL , are you suppose to get them in your inbox like old FMs?

Cause am not receiving, so has that changed to news/social or is it possibly a bug?

 

btw , my first fm since fm16 and Social feed makes me chuckle a lot.

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31 minutes ago, hazzabish said:

Teach us, oh wise one.

I wish i was wise :D
But i do know that 70% possession with 30 shots on target doesn't explain much in isolation.
One has to observe and analyse why.

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53 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

Personality adjustments can happen with or without mentoring. If you put 25 players in a squad together they will begin to learn from one another, positively or negatively. Mentoring is simply a tool to help you focus this. It allows you to bias Player A towards Player B, rather than leaving them to learn (or not) off whoever they please. It will not necessarily overcome every undesirable trait but it will allow you to better control the personality (and player traits) of your squad.

Ah, very interesting Seb, something I never knew, I've had a few reports where the squad personalities have rubbed off on a player when they weren't in a mentoring group, I had Thiago pick up a PPM from it, I think. Is that something that's possible? I thought it was a bug but if not that's cool as hell 

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58 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

Junior Player Poaching - https://community.sigames.com/topic/495450-training-youth-intake-a-brief-guide-updated-for-fm20/?do=findComment&comment=12103553

In FM20 it is possible for Juniors to be poached from another club's youth system. This will most commonly occur from smaller reputation club > larger reputation club.
When this occurs a inbox item is received, offering a few details (similar to that of the Youth Intake Preview) on the player that has been poached. Poached players will appear in the next appropriate youth intake.

Aye, I actually read it in that thread five minutes after my post. :lol: This was in the game in previous versions as well though, no? You just didn't get a notification of it in advance (which is nice).

Either way, as long as they keep stealing my rubbish prospects, I'm cool!

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5 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Ah, very interesting Seb, something I never knew, I've had a few reports where the squad personalities have rubbed off on a player when they weren't in a mentoring group, I had Thiago pick up a PPM from it, I think. Is that something that's possible? I thought it was a bug but if not that's cool as hell 

That is indeed possible. The player trait (PPM) will have been picked up from someone in his training unit.

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50 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Though I don't rate @Rashidi defensive of the CCCs. :

:kriss:

For me i still go in to verify each one personally, especially when i want to break down my systems. Sometimes I have no choice (with 4 saves running I don't have time to dig through each match, but yeah one needs to check it themselves. I find that if you remove set pieces, headers and focus on everything in a specific zone, and allow for time taken for each shot, you will come up with a very accurate guesstimate. Ultimately you will be able to tell really quickly if its worth it or not.

Right now analyst reports in the game offer some major help, you just need to remove set pieces and crosses from the source of assists and you should be able to come to a number. FM20 made it easier, though for some I reckon they don't want to take the necessary steps and will just use whatever's convenient. I think with a little bit of effort, you should be able to craft something very useful with the analyst report.

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2 hours ago, Kraftwerk said:

The board blocking sales because they feel you're not getting enough back is extremely frustrating. Not least because it's the AI that refuses to offer you fair sums for your players in comparison to when we want to buy players. That and the fact that 18 million for Jesse Lingard who isn't in my plans is better than shelling out 75k p/w for him to sit in the stands and watch. 

Interestingly, I had the board block a sale just now- player valued at 6.5m and I had accepted 11m, which I thought was OK- they blocked the sale, suggested 15.5m would be acceptable.  So I cancelled the sale, offered him out again and got 15m- maybe they know something that I don't?

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36 minutes ago, FrazT said:

Interestingly, I had the board block a sale just now- player valued at 6.5m and I had accepted 11m, which I thought was OK- they blocked the sale, suggested 15.5m would be acceptable.  So I cancelled the sale, offered him out again and got 15m- maybe they know something that I don't?

I think the AI knows they're low balling so the board push for more? interesting take and much useful going forward to combat the low balling FM in previous versions from the AI trying to poach players. Wonder how it works for star players/tier below and if they're world class- do the board sell for a massive pay or do they persevere and try to keep him with a recommended contract/manager talk to keep him.

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For every great bit of play the ME is capable of, I'm sorry to say there are 4 or 5 things like this:

I mean, what is the ME even trying to represent here? Just looks so poor.

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After playing about 35 matches, I’m definitely a +1 for tweaks with shots into the side netting, low 1:1 conversion, not enough central play in general and low scoring strikers.

Loving the game except for the above which is not quite game breaking for me but I also think that’s because I’m assuming it gets fixed next patch :)

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I'm definitely noticing lower assist numbers from the widemen and wingbacks than on previous versions. That might tie-in with them shooting too much, even when on support duty etc.

Edited by hazzabish

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