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Neil Brock

Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread

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I think you're missing the point. If ME calculates that playing trough the middle against a defensive packed team is impossible, that's totally fine. It's dumb to try to break a low defensive line well placed with play through the middle. The ME behavior is totally natural and realistic. The problem is that parking the bus is a very demanding tactic. Not every team is Mourinho's inter. If you lose your concentration just a second it can be deadly because the opponents are very high in your own half. That's the problem of FM, the problem that you talk about. Lack of punishment for choosing an extreme tactic. It's the same problem when you go for an attacking gegenpress : you're not enough punished for playing such a risky tactic.

 

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48 minutes ago, chris31k said:

I think you're missing the point. If ME calculates that playing trough the middle against a defensive packed team is impossible, that's totally fine. It's dumb to try to break a low defensive line well placed with play through the middle. The ME behavior is totally natural and realistic. The problem is that parking the bus is a very demanding tactic. Not every team is Mourinho's inter. If you lose your concentration just a second it can be deadly because the opponents are very high in your own half. That's the problem of FM, the problem that you talk about. Lack of punishment for choosing an extreme tactic. It's the same problem when you go for an attacking gegenpress : you're not enough punished for playing such a risky tactic.

 

The me doesn't calculate that way. It doesn't calculate outcomes and work backwards

Even though the goal is good, the movement there from the forwards isn't amazing. Which is why it looks like defenders concentration isn't being broken: they're not actually having much asked of them

Defending in FM is getting increasingly better, but attacking isn't increasing at the same rate. 

It's a good example of both a good goal but also a symptom of where FM can improve going forwards

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@Muja that looks like a through ball from AMC to striker in a 4312... the holy grail of FM :D. Very interesting analysis, hopefully this can help ME improvement.

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3 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The me doesn't calculate that way. It doesn't calculate outcomes and work backwards

Even though the goal is good, the movement there from the forwards isn't amazing. Which is why it looks like defenders concentration isn't being broken: they're not actually having much asked of them

Defending in FM is getting increasingly better, but attacking isn't increasing at the same rate. 

It's a good example of both a good goal but also a symptom of where FM can improve going forwards

Regarding Striker movement, agree with what you say but I'd argue it's regressed rather than lack of progression. 

 

In previous games you'd frequently see a F9 or DLP drop into the half space to link the play. Or floating around the box if free role was ticked. The only major issue was a lack of lateral movement, but even then it was better than now. 

 

The tendency in the last two games to stay static and central almost seems like a glitch in comparison. I'm not sure what's happened as there's clear evidence of good movement in older games so the code must already exist. 

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8 hours ago, Pasonen said:

 Watch when pass comes to left winger and that stretches the defline and theres space between dcr-dr. St doesnt even blink. And when st gets the pass he was not even then well positioned.

Another really crucial pass is the one back to the deeper midfielder Bandinelli (25), forcing the defenders centrally to push up and engage again, unlocking the space between the lines for the AMC in the first place. I've argued this for a while, but if the (Possession) pre-sets and similar don't absolutely lock one midfielder to stay deeper, they're failure by design -- even once all is patched.

Edited by Svenc

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15 hours ago, thejay said:

I hope your are not serious? 

 

If you are I learned a new Spanish word for people like you, vendehumos, very fitting. 

The English English variant is more abstract and involves oils and snakes. 

 

Stop insulting people in the thread otherwise you are going to be banned from this thread.

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13 hours ago, Muja said:

But let's watch the gif carefully, everybody... Does it seem to you like the red team is defending wide, or particularly high..?

You have to remember that just because you have set the AI to defend wide, this doesn't mean its players are all going to start standing further away from each other leaving pockets of space open. Defending wide simply instructs the team to try and deny easy access down the flanks, which means they will try and close down or tackle players there. Everything in this match engine is relative as well, so if the opposing team is playing narrow and encouraging passes inside, then the positioning of the defending team will also be relative to the attacking team. This means they will still stand relatively close.  You can see when the No 3 fullback gets up the pitch, he is immediately closed down.

 

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Still playing. Really enjoying it. Looking forward to the next patch, hopefully it makes the engine even better.

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13 hours ago, chris31k said:

I think you're missing the point. If ME calculates that playing trough the middle against a defensive packed team is impossible, that's totally fine. It's dumb to try to break a low defensive line well placed with play through the middle. The ME behavior is totally natural and realistic. The problem is that parking the bus is a very demanding tactic. Not every team is Mourinho's inter. If you lose your concentration just a second it can be deadly because the opponents are very high in your own half. That's the problem of FM, the problem that you talk about. Lack of punishment for choosing an extreme tactic. It's the same problem when you go for an attacking gegenpress : you're not enough punished for playing such a risky tactic.

I don't know if you were talking to me specifically, but that was actually my point, I agree with you. 
A deep and narrow defense should defend well against through balls, it's true, but they shouldn't be able to NULLIFY that threat completely for 90 minutes. Especially if their defensive side is weaker than your offensive side. 

 

12 hours ago, kandersson said:

@Muja that looks like a through ball from AMC to striker in a 4312... the holy grail of FM :D

Ahah that's exactly right! How I love such a play! 

2 hours ago, Rashidi said:

You have to remember that just because you have set the AI to defend wide, this doesn't mean its players are all going to start standing further away from each other leaving pockets of space open. Defending wide simply instructs the team to try and deny easy access down the flanks, which means they will try and close down or tackle players there. Everything in this match engine is relative as well, so if the opposing team is playing narrow and encouraging passes inside, then the positioning of the defending team will also be relative to the attacking team. This means they will still stand relatively close.  You can see when the No 3 fullback gets up the pitch, he is immediately closed down.

That's a very interesting point, Rashidi, and it really helped me to better understand how it works.
I said earlier that defensive width doesn't matter, but that might not be completely true, I guess it's a combination of the widht and defensive line values. 

The thing is that, whatever the tactical instructions of the opponent, if you win the possession battle you'll eventually cage your opponents in their half, and then the players positions look exactly the same, wether they're defending narrow or wide, deep or high. 
Visually the difference is minimum, the space behind the defenders it's still there, but probably the ME is calculating that there's no such space and it stops the creative players from even trying that option.

Which brings me to another gripe I have with the game: the visual in-game feedback.
If I tell my player to try more risky passes, he should do that
. And that's it. Now, if there's no space behind the defense, I should see all this through balls being intercepted by the keeper or the defenders. Instead I see my players not even trying that option, because the ME's calculations say it ain't possible, and then they pass on the flank and my tactics gives birth to the crossing game even though I wanted the exact opposite. 

For another example , that's true for short passes from your defenders, too: if they can't see a free teammate in front of them, they hooff the ball forward. Instead they should make a short pass and fail it.

This kind of feedback would feel "fair", because the players are evidently making mistakes based on your instructions, and it would also let you see with extreme clarity what is wrong with your tactics.

... Now let me add that okay, I'm being very critical, but that's what this post is for, right?
In the end I quite love the game, having lots of fun with it, I'm here specifically because I love it so much and I see the potential for it to be even better.

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Anyone experiencing big freezing during the game? So annoying, sometimes I got stuck for more than 1 minute waiting for the game to respond, I'm pretty sure is nothing related to my pc config.

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb LucasBR:

Anyone experiencing big freezing during the game? So annoying, sometimes I got stuck for more than 1 minute waiting for the game to respond, I'm pretty sure is nothing related to my pc config.

Did you already delete the game cache?

 

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29 minutes ago, KUBI said:

Did you already delete the game cache?

 

No, I've done it now. I've posted on the bug forum asking about my game always keep opening on full-screen mode, do you think deleting this folders will help with that? Thanks.

No freezing, thank you Kubi.

Edited by LucasBR

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I am happy with the last update indeed.

FM20 was much too easy since the last update. On the one side, it was very easy to by successfull and on the other side it was the whorst ME (Longballs4life) since i play the game. And it means since FM2009

Important to know, i'm not playing with big clubs. More the category of Panaitolakis, Bochum, Hajduk Split, Slavia Sofia, Nordsjaelland, Santiago Wanderers and all those stuff. 

But now it looks more like a challenge to win games an it looks much more like real football. 

I trust in SI.

The most important part of the game is, in my opinion, not to make it too easy. On the first look you might think, its better for newcomers, if its not to difficult, but thinking about years of development, its more important to keep the real tactic managers, who are going into the depth of the game. It needs a mixture. 

It is only a real FM, if you need to make notes and use tactical analysis and think about wich line-up you will send on the pitch. It has to matter wich guy plays on wich position................ 

Sometimes i see pictures on facebook, wich show guys having excel papers, a lot of notes or blackboards or whatever. In these moments i think: 'omg, this in not needed since FM17.

But the last impressions could be the right tendency. 

I reiterate: I trust in SI.

Look at the Database. It's the best Database we've ever had and it get's better year by year. I remember Databases with tooooo much -9 or -8 PA's and a lot of Elite Players in the starting Database.

What we have now, it's much more realistic and the research gets also better every year. Despite Turkish Talents. I don't know where they get their knowledge from, but its worse. 

justmy2cents

Edited by The Basque

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I've done two seasons since the patch now and definitely noticing much more goal variety and I have actually been really happy with some of the passing and off the ball movement I have seen. I have noticed loads of headed goals like people are saying but my star striker is a 6' 8'' beast so I'm not really finding it very immersion breaking and if others weren't talking about it, I'm not sure I'd think it's a bug since it doesn't seem to be a disproportionate number of the goals I concede. I'm definitely not finding an issue with one on ones anymore either.

Been running the same save since the original beta and one thing I'm really happy with is how when the patches have come in this year they haven't changed the ME so much that you have to change your tactic. As someone who likes to play really long term saves this is massive positive.

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I'm not a big contributor on here, but recently started getting an absurd amount of shots and on target with minimal minimal goals. Had 64 shots in one game, over 30 on target and won 3-0. Not arguing the result, just the stats. Had 33 shots with 14 onT in most recent game and drew 0-0... in 2 recent games I had 61 shots, 32 on target and scored 3 as well. The stats are daft, but I assume this is from a recent beta update or something?

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1 hour ago, The Basque said:

I am happy with the last update indeed.

FM20 was much too easy since the last update. On the one side, it was very easy to by successfull and on the other side it was the whorst ME (Longballs4life) since i play the game. And it means since FM2009

Important to know, i'm not playing with big clubs. More the category of Panaitolakis, Bochum, Hajduk Split, Slavia Sofia, Nordsjaelland, Santiago Wanderers and all those stuff. 

But now it looks more like a challenge to win games an it looks much more like real football. 

I trust in SI.

The most important part of the game is, in my opinion, not to make it too easy. On the first look you might think, its better for newcomers, if its not to difficult, but thinking about years of development, its more important to keep the real tactic managers, who are going into the depth of the game. It needs a mixture. 

It is only a real FM, if you need to make notes and use tactical analysis and think about wich line-up you will send on the pitch. It has to matter wich guy plays on wich position................ 

Sometimes i see pictures on facebook, wich show guys having excel papers, a lot of notes or blackboards or whatever. In these moments i think: 'omg, this in not needed since FM17.

But the last impressions could be the right tendency. 

I reiterate: I trust in SI.

Look at the Database. It's the best Database we've ever had and it get's better year by year. I remember Databases with tooooo much -9 or -8 PA's and a lot of Elite Players in the starting Database.

What we have now, it's much more realistic and the research gets also better every year. Despite Turkish Talents. I don't know where they get their knowledge from, but its worse. 

justmy2cents

 

The biggest issue in my opinion though is lots of people are judging the ME based on whether there saves are successful, which I totally understand. If your save is going well, you're obviously going to enjoy the game more and likely defend it. If the save is not going well, it's natural for a lot of people to immediately look for faults with the game.

HOWEVER, the ME is in a poor state this year, the fact it's needed a beta patch then a full patch update before the Feb update shows that. Also speaking from my own experience in which I've had plenty of successful saves with this years edition, I'm still seeing many things wrong with the ME. Sometimes it goes for me and others against me, but the issue is as clear to see. The amount of totally unrealistic goals I have witnessed for me and against me is shockingly bad and beyond laughable at this stage. Without repeating myself too much from my previous posts, the CCC don't seem to have been fixed, instead just changed what counts as a CCC to reduce the number of them however the amount of sitters missed is woeful in comparison to the amount of super strikes from 30 yards and set piece goals.

In comparison to the last few years, I can't see how anyone can argue that this isn't one of the worse ME in years. Forget how your save is going, whether you're being successful or not and base the ME on what you see and I'm confident like most other people here, you will see that the ME is not up to par, considering we're in 2020.

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Why is the overall performance summary LOWER than any of the ratings in the breakdown? It makes no sense like this, surely the overall performance rating should be an average of those parts? There is not one "E" rating in there.

unknown.png

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The 'park the bus' defend deep problem has been prevalent in the last two versions IMO, the AI does it too often anyway and its too easy for them to do. being constantly under that pressure the whole game but barely conceding any chances often against superior opposition, in better form. 

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I think that the ME now is not bad at all, the real problem is the AI. I find the game too easy and I also noticed the "park the bus - narrow defense" attitude of the AI.

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The AI parking it is only a problem because attacking movement isn't as intelligent as it could be. Looking at that GIF earlier, it was frustrating how the two strikers remained central instead of looking for the gaps between the opposition full-backs and centre backs that were opening up. Ideally, the strikers' movement should be cuter than that, especially if they're intelligent players.

It's an issue with the position itself, I think, because I've seen Inside Forwards attack that type of space well since the patch. AFAIK, SI are working on improving this, so fingers crossed they can.

Strikers can be deadly still, but their movement this year (and last year, too) is mostly in straight lines. Hence, the optimal way to get them scoring is to either play direct passes behind a defence for them to run on to and score (hopefully!) the 1v1, or to cross the ball in their general vicinity. FM20 became a much easier game for me when I realised that PFa/AF with Pass Into Space, Higher Tempo and Hit Early Crosses TIs was an effective way of getting goals. 

Unfortunately, this makes a patient passing game trickier because the striker is an essential attacking pivot for bringing runners - either IFs or someone from midfield - into play, but his static positioning can result in him being crowded out by those deep defences. You can absolutely be successful this way, but from my experience, you're likely to score fewer goals than you would playing more direct or on the counter. For me, this ME clearly favours a more direct style, and that in itself is a problem because not everyone wants to play that way. It's not a coincidence the tactics forum is full of threads about people struggling to get performances out of their forwards.

Despite all that, I do hope defending continues to improve, too. Teams playing deep and compact against you if you're in good form is logical. The one issue I have it with it right now, besides attacking movement, is that I've come against attacking managers with decent teams who go all-out defence the moment you hit any significant form. This is especially notable against mid-table teams. Pretty much anyone from 10th downwards tends to go defensive against me, when I feel that a few of them should at least be having a go, especially if they're at home. I really shouldn't be able to rock-up at a 10th place team is okay form playing a 2-3-3-2 formation and not feel any danger.

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I'm sure I read somewhere that improved striker movement was a big part of the new ME for fm20, seems like a lack of striker movement in the final 1/3 is still an issue. 

Edited by Weller1980

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I wish I could let my teams play the football I want them to play.

Tried to play fast counter-attacking football with Standard de Liège, got boring and low-scoring defensive football which made me quit the save I started with aspiration.
Tried to play beautiful possession football with Borussia Dortmund, got headers galore from crosses and set pieces executed by the likes of Schulz, Götze and Reus.
Tried to just enjoy and play Football Manager 2020, I can't.

 

Team Tactics

Spoiler

QaCFeZl.png

Team Report

Spoiler

ybR3Y6w.png

Goal Types

Spoiler

KNlcF39.png

Goal Assists

Spoiler

lIEZyzL.png

 

Something is wrong when winning matches doesn't bring you joy.

Spoiler

nrLJgZu.png

 

I can't see the logic anymore, but maybe I'm just too demanding.

Edited by gonefading
added main tactics

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I thought I'd give it another go with Shrewsbury after this latest update, I can't play anymore than half a season. It is so so dull. It is nearly the same passage of play over and over. I have it on extended highlights and the highlight is either a shot getting blocked, a very weak header straight at the keeper or a set piece. It's literally all wide play with no variation at all. No central play what so ever.

I can't believe how backwards the match engine has gone.

Back to FM 2017 I go.

Edited by BeadyRoller

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10 hours ago, Tiger666 said:

I've stopped playing. It's just boring. WIll look again after the .3 patch but I have doubts this match engine can be rescued personally.

Also stopped playing 2 weeks ago, not even tried the last patch. I’ll look one last time when the final patch comes out. 
 

I’ve recorded about 30% of my normal play and not even started a full and proper save on a game I bought in November......

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I have hidden a number of posts due to personal insults and bickering being thrown around. Please stick to feedback on the game :) 

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After posting a week or so ago saying I’d uninstalled the game, I thought I’d give it another go. And after two full evenings of playing I give up again. 
 

Finding absolutely no consistency whatsoever, and just feel that no matter what instructions are used the game will play out in a random way relying on set pieces, crosses and 30 yard shots (which seem to always go in when the AI has a go).

Im going 5/6 games winning, then 5/6 losing, then 5/6 winning over and over, and I cannot see anyway in which to change it because the game is so random. 

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@wattzy Sorry to hear you're finding it frustrating but please refrain from making digs (I've edited your post). Thanks.

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8 minutes ago, wattzy said:

After posting a week or so ago saying I’d uninstalled the game, I thought I’d give it another go. And after two full evenings of playing I give up again. 
 

Finding absolutely no consistency whatsoever, and just feel that no matter what instructions are used the game will play out in a random way relying on set pieces, crosses and 30 yard shots (which seem to always go in when the AI has a go).

Im going 5/6 games winning, then 5/6 losing, then 5/6 winning over and over, and I cannot see anyway in which to change it because the game is so random. 

Actually the most random thing in this ME is heading...

Imagine that my top scorer after 38 Games in Premier League scored only 20 GOALS. And half of them is heading !!!!!!!!!!!! ( Imagine Mane scoring 10 goals by heading!?)

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@wattzy - @Lucas asked you politely not to post digs at staff, and you've been told about doing that before. If you don't have anything to contribute other than retorts at that request or further digs at staff, we can just take such responses as read without you needing to actually do it in future, if it's all the same. It'll just save us all time that way.

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I really enjoy FM, but this year's ME is just so odd.

The whole ball over the top thing was weird in itsself, but now it seems like a worse version ME than FM 19.

 

There's such a limited variety of goals. I feel like I've seen all the patterns already.

It's always one of following:

- Goal after a cross from a set piece

- Cross to the far post, where a winger outjumps the full back and heads it in the opposing corner

- Throw in routine, ends up being a cross to a winger who outjumps the full back and heads it into the opposing corner

- Random long shot (this is good, not too frequent)

- Penalties

- Winger cuts inside and tries a long shot

- Odd tiki taka in the box where the striker could blast it, instead passes it to a winger

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When I read some of these posts I think that I must be living in some parallel universe. The MI seems pretty good to me. Puts on tin hat and takes cover.

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37 minutes ago, JulesD said:

I really enjoy FM, but this year's ME is just so odd.

The whole ball over the top thing was weird in itsself, but now it seems like a worse version ME than FM 19.

 

There's such a limited variety of goals. I feel like I've seen all the patterns already.

It's always one of following:

- Goal after a cross from a set piece

- Cross to the far post, where a winger outjumps the full back and heads it in the opposing corner

- Throw in routine, ends up being a cross to a winger who outjumps the full back and heads it into the opposing corner

- Random long shot (this is good, not too frequent)

- Penalties

- Winger cuts inside and tries a long shot

- Odd tiki taka in the box where the striker could blast it, instead passes it to a winger

The ME also seems to really, really love putting the ball in the air at every opportunity - maybe we should be given control of whether we want our teams to favour an aerial or ground game.  That would radically change the passing choices available in any given situation and might help people play the styles they want to rather than the ME deciding to hoof it to whichever player is in most space regardless of instructions.

"If God had wanted us to play football in the sky, He'd have put grass up there." is clearly not a philosophy acknowledged by the ME. This is particularly obvious with the number of headed goal attempts that should have come from low passes (is there such a thing in FM20?)

Edited by rp1966

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3 hours ago, gonefading said:

I wish I could let my teams play the football I want them to play.

Tried to play fast counter-attacking football with Standard de Liège, got boring and low-scoring defensive football which made me quit the save I started with aspiration.
Tried to play beautiful possession football with Borussia Dortmund, got headers galore from crosses and set pieces executed by the likes of Schulz, Götze and Reus.
Tried to just enjoy and play Football Manager 2020, I can't.

 

Team Tactics

  Reveal hidden contents

QaCFeZl.png

Team Report

  Reveal hidden contents

ybR3Y6w.png

Goal Types

  Reveal hidden contents

KNlcF39.png

Goal Assists

  Reveal hidden contents

lIEZyzL.png

 

Something is wrong when winning matches doesn't bring you joy.

  Reveal hidden contents

nrLJgZu.png

 

I can't see the logic anymore, but maybe I'm just too demanding.

While the ME is nowhere near perfect, can you really say your tactics should create "beautiful possession" football?

You run a target man, which is the striker role I'd associate the least with a possession based tactic, as he simply attracts high balls being played onto him. You play a RMD, which is basically a wide poacher, not really the kind of role you'd expect to be pinging the ball around since all he wants to do is score goals, you have a Treq, who is going to be looking for an attacking move rather than circulate the ball with his mentality and he's really lazy so defensively he's not gonna do much to help you recover possession, you play narrow and through the middle, but 2/3rds of your midfield is just sitting back because they're on def duty, so you have little support in that regard going forwards.

So you have a front three on attack duty aggressively pushing forwards, play through the middle, but the only deep player who goes forward there is the RPM, so you're kinda expecting him to just dribble down the entire length of the pitch or something? Looking at Dahoud he's a solid passer, but he doesn't look like the kind of guy who would run with the ball a lot (at least on my save). His dribbling isn't great and he's slow, so he's most likely just gonna pass the ball, but since your front three are all rushing ahead, he has nobody around him centrally, so he probably will often just opt to try and play in the target man.

So when your team is pretty disjointed due to the front three being high up the field, while having a striker role that attracts long balls and you telling your team to focus play through the middle, how do you expect shorter possession based passing to happen? How do you expect your team to work the ball into the box when your main creative outlet has an attacking mentality and your two other roles up front just want to score goals? Not to mention, again, one of these being a player that naturally attracts high and long balls. How do you expect to recycle possession with both the Anchor and BWM sitting way deeper due to their defense duties?

Edited by Freakiie

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2 minutes ago, Freakiie said:

While the ME is nowhere near perfect, can you really say your tactics should create "beautiful possession" football?

You run a target man, which is the striker role I'd associate the least with a possession based tactic, as he simply attracts high balls being played onto him. You play a RMD, which is basically a wide poacher, not really the kind of role you'd expect to be pinging the ball around since all he wants to do is score goals, you have a Treq, who is going to be looking for an attacking move rather than circulate the ball with his mentality and he's really lazy so defensively he's not gonna do much to help you recover possession, you play narrow and through the middle, but 2/3rds of your midfield is just sitting back because they're on def duty, so you have little support in that regard going forwards.

So you have a front three on attack duty aggressively pushing forwards, play through the middle, but the only deep player who goes forward there is the RPM, so you're kinda expecting him to just dribble down the entire length of the pitch or something? Looking at Dahoud he's a solid passer, but he doesn't look like the kind of guy who would run with the ball a lot (at least on my save). His dribbling isn't great and he's slow, so he's most likely just gonna pass the ball, but since your front three are all rushing ahead, he has nobody around him centrally, so he probably will often just opt to try and play in the target man.

So when your team is pretty disjointed due to the front three being high up the field, while having a striker role that attracts long balls and you telling your team to focus play through the middle, how do you expect shorter possession based passing to happen? How do you expect your team to work the ball into the box when your main creative outlet has an attacking mentality and your two other roles up front just want to score goals? Not to mention, again, one of these being a player that naturally attracts high and long balls. How do you expect to recycle possession with both the Ancher and BWM sitting way deeper due to their defense duties?

That's not my starting XI.

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We've had to delete a number of personal attacks. Despite frequent warnings it's still happening. Any more at this point will likely lead to a thread ban and potentially further infractions

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3 minutes ago, gonefading said:

That's not my starting XI.

I see, so all your roles and TIs are completely different. Wonder why you linked these screenshots then. :rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, Hovis Dexter said:

When I read some of these posts I think that I must be living in some parallel universe. The MI seems pretty good to me. Puts on tin hat and takes cover.

There's still some long standing issues, but I'm enjoying it as a whole, get a good amount of variety from it and the opposition (perhaps because of the way I play against sides?) Long term attack needs to catch up with defence but I like the fact defending is getting increasingly better in FM. 

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1 minute ago, Freakiie said:

I see, so all your roles and TIs are completely different. Wonder why you linked these screenshots then. :rolleyes:

More respect, please. I linked it because of the analyst report. Can we fall even lower?

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5 minutes ago, Freakiie said:

While the ME is nowhere near perfect, can you really say your tactics should create "beautiful possession" football?

You run a target man, which is the striker role I'd associate the least with a possession based tactic, as he simply attracts high balls being played onto him. You play a RMD, which is basically a wide poacher, not really the kind of role you'd expect to be pinging the ball around since all he wants to do is score goals, you have a Treq, who is going to be looking for an attacking move rather than circulate the ball with his mentality and he's really lazy so defensively he's not gonna do much to help you recover possession, you play narrow and through the middle, but 2/3rds of your midfield is just sitting back because they're on def duty, so you have little support in that regard going forwards.

His style is very bayern munich style. Muller and lewa fit those roles perfectly during their stint. Just because the roles doesn't warrant it doesn't mean they shouldn't make those balls. Emre can (not the name can), reus can, sancho can, witsel certainly can from deep. 

Conceeding isn't an option so defence is fine for that matter by stats wise. He's trying to make it worth while, i'd change the RCM tho to a dlp or b2b. Possibly be more expressive to see the "beauty" of it. If those wide players changed to suit the possession style he wants then wingers won't be useful and IF's/IW will be but they go inside. My point is front 3 shouldn't be the worry for possession but the midfield. Bayern had a dlp/DM with a roaming playmaker and a b2b. @gonefading maybe try that? 

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8 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

There's still some long standing issues, but I'm enjoying it as a whole, get a good amount of variety from it and the opposition (perhaps because of the way I play against sides?) Long term attack needs to catch up with defence but I like the fact defending is getting increasingly better in FM. 

Out of curiosity do you have any uploaded vids of this? or have done in this thread/others in the past for this ME? 

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Came back for the new ME, lasted one season before deciding it's still absolutely terrible and not worth playing. The rest of the game is the best it's ever been, but there are no redeeming qualities with this ME, i'm afraid. SI have lost my loyalty now, i won't be buying FM21 unless it proves to be well received by the majority. 

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7 minutes ago, BigV said:

Out of curiosity do you have any uploaded vids of this? or have done in this thread/others in the past for this ME? 

Nah. Thought about doing a tactics thread this year but honestly, between that and bug reports I just wouldn't have the time and people like Rashidi are much better at explanations than I am. I might upload some once this new season kicks off proper ( only just into pre season)

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14 minutes ago, BigV said:

His style is very bayern munich style. Muller and lewa fit those roles perfectly during their stint. Just because the roles doesn't warrant it doesn't mean they shouldn't make those balls. Emre can (not the name can), reus can, sancho can, witsel certainly can from deep. 

Conceeding isn't an option so defence is fine for that matter by stats wise. He's trying to make it worth while, i'd change the RCM tho to a dlp or b2b. Possibly be more expressive to see the "beauty" of it. If those wide players changed to suit the possession style he wants then wingers won't be useful and IF's/IW will be but they go inside. My point is front 3 shouldn't be the worry for possession but the midfield. Bayern had a dlp/DM with a roaming playmaker and a b2b. @gonefading maybe try that? 

It's indeed very Munich like, back when Müller was still tearing it up from the right flank. Then again, Heyncke's Munich was in no way possession based, they shredded teams apart through their direct play, with a deep defensive line to lure teams out. Guardiola's Munich... well they won the BL through Bayern's quality, what they showed in the CL though was rather embarrassing, so whether you want to take that as a benchmark :lol:.

As for players cutting inside, he's playing narrow and through the middle so I don't think that should inherently be an issue, especially considering the RMD will naturally come inside even without the instruction as he wants to go for goal anyway (I'm also assuming Reus has cut inside PPMs, but he's retired on my save so can't check) and is instructed to sit narrower. And while the front three aren't inherently an issue for possession, they're the only option for the RPM going forward, so you will most likely see the ball end up there very fast, unless the RPM plays a lot of backwards passes. Meanwhile, Can and Witsel can definitely pass the ball, but both have a role that lowers their risk taking, so while they definitely can play those balls, their roles will hinder them in that regard.

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I will clarify a few things. Let's inspect my 9-0 win vs. Rhede. Of course, not the strongest opponent, but it will give me an idea where my goals actually come from.

That's the match outcome: 

Spoiler

lw1XUkd.png

My starting XI roles and duties in the first half:

                        SK-su
CWB-su   CD-de   CD-de   FB-su
                      BWM-su
        BWM-de             AP-su
  AP-su                               W-su
                       F9-su

4th minute: Götze scores a header after a free kick from Guerreiro
17th minute: Schulz scores a header after a cross from Brandt
18th minute: Balerdi scores a header following a free kick from Guerreiro
25th minute: Schulz scores a header after a cross from Hakimi
83rd minute: Reus scores a header after a corner kick by Guerreiro

Another two headers were scored by Haaland whom I subbed in as a TM-at in the second half. (To Haaland: I believe that players should be used to their strengths; it's a good role for him, and I give him the freedom to be my aerial threat if I need one.)

That means that 7 out of 9 goals were scored by headers, 4 of them in the first half alone by small players with poor heading ratings (except Balerdi). Even more frustrating: Schulz, the winger who was supposed to be the one to provide width and crosses, scored two headers.

I really can't see the logic here. And it's exactly the kind of problem the other users are reporting. You can't even battle it with possession-based narrow tactics either since players seem to do what they want anyway (like Schulz, the aerial beast with 8 heading and W-su role).

By the way: The RPM from my "Best XI" scout report screenshot is Dahoud's custom role. No other players of mine are using this role, I don't even consider him being part of my Starting XI plans.

Don't confuse the team report screen with the tactics screen, please. It doesn't show the tactical setup someone is using but what it believes to be the best starting XI.

Edited by gonefading

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