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Neil Brock

Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread

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I had great fun on the beta patch but not the new patch. The amount of set piece goals causes me anger at my team, and every team I play against seems to defend with zeal so my team will have so many shots but not good chances. Our results have dropped because of a change to the game. The tactic was working. Now the team is pathetic at scoring and incompetent at set piece defense. I should want to say no, this save uses one patch only.

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7 hours ago, Bobek said:

Is it bug? 

Striker literally frozen  

Others have pointed out the rule regarding penalties, but it is still something that should be looked at. In reality even though he can't touch the ball again he'd be looking to stop the runners from the defending team either to allow a teammate onto the ball or in the hope of getting the ball after a defender has touched it.  Just standing still is not the right behaviour.

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5 hours ago, slothclunk said:

I had great fun on the beta patch but not the new patch. The amount of set piece goals causes me anger at my team, and every team I play against seems to defend with zeal so my team will have so many shots but not good chances. Our results have dropped because of a change to the game. The tactic was working. Now the team is pathetic at scoring and incompetent at set piece defense. I should want to say no, this save uses one patch only.

Perhaps change your tactic?

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The Death by set pieces . as soon as you meet a higher reputation club and they cant score from open play the set piece goals are trickling in. its easy 50 percent of  the goals i concede.

If Higher reputation Club hasnt scored by 10 minute then goal from set pieces % will raise by X

Etc.

Should lable the title "FM20 Set Pieces" instead 

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6 minutes ago, eye-switcher said:

The Death by set pieces . as soon as you meet a higher reputation club and they cant score from open play the set piece goals are trickling in. its easy 50 percent of  the goals i concede.

If Higher reputation Club hasnt scored by 10 minute then goal from set pieces % will raise by X

Etc.

Should lable the title "FM20 Set Pieces" instead 

I’m not seeing this ...

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24 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

I’m not seeing this ...

Congrats, what team and what reputation do your team have?

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Set-pieces are strong on this year's game, but this has been the case for all versions of the ME. 

My team was so unintentionally good at scoring from set-pieces, my board made "Be strong at set-pieces" a club vision requirement! Which isn't how I like to play at all, but needs must. 

I wonder, though: how many people bother to use the set-piece training sessions? I usually throw in four or five a month, and I get messages during games from my ass. man about how the team is benefiting from the work being done on set-pieces. Coincidentally, the odd month where I get lazy with this is when I start leaking set-piece goals.

So if you're struggling with set-pieces, try doing some training on them and see if that helps at all. I've a feeling this is more important than the actual set-piece routine itself.

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1 minute ago, eye-switcher said:

Congrats, what team and what reputation do your team have?

Started at Nancy, then moved to Villa and I’m now at Napoli, in the only save I’ve had with FM20. New ME dropped whilst at Napoli. It’s 2026. We’re a 4 star rep club atm.

I’m not scoring many set pieces and I’m not conceding many. Just played Real Madrid away in the Champs league group stages and lost 3-1. They scored a 1v1 and a back post header towards the end of the 1st half and a rocket start of 2nd. I scored a consolation through ball late on.

I’m having a very strong season so far (end of December) and I’m again battling Inter for the title. I’ve lost away to them (1-0 ... a cross and header from open play) and I’ve drawn away to Juve 1-1 (they scored a good move from edge of box). They’ve both got a higher rep than me. I’ve also drawn a few more, but to lower rep opposition.

Napoli are a good team, I’ve worked my way up to managing them, but they’re not the ultimate.

I don’t feel “cheesed” at all at the moment with the ME. Either by the AI or against it.

I do understand others do but, I thought I should share that personally, I’m not seeing it.

Im playing a very simple 4123 tactic.

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10 hours ago, bahrami said:

Is anyone firmly fixed on getting FM21 as soon as it's released? Serious question, besides an updated database, I really don't see the fuss with the game anymore. Maybe I've just lost interest as the years have gone on but I really can't get into it like in previous years.

Yep.

I only play a network game nowadays and we’re having a blast.

I understand this may not be possible for everyone but now, for me, it’s the ONLY way to play the game.

 

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1 hour ago, sidslayer said:

I’m not seeing this ...

Simply watch a few Ai vs Ai goals and you will very quickly notice trends.

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6 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

Simply watch a few Ai vs Ai goals and you will very quickly notice trends.

Yeah, I’m aware of this. But seeing as I don’t play as the AI I don’t see the point.

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Just now, sidslayer said:

Yeah, I’m aware of this. But seeing as I don’t play as the AI I don’t see the point.

Fair enough, but surly this proves big sections of code within the ME are rotten and therefore isn't right, it sort of ruins the integrity of the game world? I'm not expecting a perfect ME there will always be issues but, the lack of central play and goal variety is a big one for me personally.

Since FM19 we've had big issues with the lack of central play. id love an update from SI on why/how weve got such a problem that hasn't been fixed for two years, and SI haven't really acknowledged it.

I've been a fan and loyal customer since the Amiga days buying PC versions, Ipad version, mobile etc.  I kinda feel as though SI should answer my legimate question as to why we have issues with central play and perhaps whats being done to try and fix it?

I have brought every version on release. Next years version, lets just say I will perhaps try the demo first as ive lost a bit of faith in SI at this point. Don't get me wrong I love the franchise but Ive reached a point where im a bit fed up. 

Im now playing FM18 and having some fun again, so im still getting my FM fix!!! 

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6 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

Fair enough, but surly this proves big sections of code within the ME are rotten and therefore isn't right, it sort of ruins the integrity of the game world? I'm not expecting a perfect ME there will always be issues but, the lack of central play and goal variety is a big one for me personally.

Since FM19 we've had big issues with the lack of central play. id love an update from SI on why/how weve got such a problem that hasn't been fixed for two years, and SI haven't really acknowledged it.

I've been a fan and loyal customer since the Amiga days buying PC versions, Ipad version, mobile etc.  I kinda feel as though SI should answer my legimate question as to why we have issues with central play and perhaps whats being done to try and fix it?

I have brought every version on release. Next years version, lets just say I will perhaps try the demo first as ive lost a bit of faith in SI at this point. Don't get me wrong I love the franchise but Ive reached a point where im a bit fed up. 

Im now playing FM18 and having some fun again, so im still getting my FM fix!!! 

I don’t dispute you see these issues. Perhaps I don’t because I’m not looking for them? The integrity of the game world isn’t ruined for me because the only thing I’m interested in with AI against AI is the result. I’m not concerned about how the ME gets to it.

Now if I was seeing what you see in MY matches I’d be concerned. But I’m not. 

I’m very confused by this central play issue. What is it that people expect to see? Through balls from my CM to my ST? I see this. Nice build up between my CM’s that goes out wide then back in for a shot or through ball? I see this. One twos between my CM’s? I see this. Of course the ball will end up wide at some point. Utilising and stretching the pitch is intrinsic to any game of football. What is it that is missing? What variety of goals are you not seeing? In your matches, not Ai vs Ai.

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I'm wondering if it's working as intended that the AI coaches load players with PPMs that sometimes are contradicting but also make them unsuitable for roles they're good (just because the stats are good for certain PPMs). Just took over a team in my 8th season, pretty much every MC has "gets forward whenever possible", also many DR/Ls got it. Also one player has "runs with ball down right" AND "cuts inside from both wings". Not to mention the amount of players who seem to be particularly good at "trying killer balls often"...

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17 minutes ago, Grateful Dead said:

I'm wondering if it's working as intended that the AI coaches load players with PPMs that sometimes are contradicting but also make them unsuitable for roles they're good (just because the stats are good for certain PPMs). Just took over a team in my 8th season, pretty much every MC has "gets forward whenever possible", also many DR/Ls got it. Also one player has "runs with ball down right" AND "cuts inside from both wings". Not to mention the amount of players who seem to be particularly good at "trying killer balls often"...

That is very likely due to mentoring.

Until a few editions ago the AI was not bothering with PPMs and re-training positions, but since last year's edition it goes way overboard.

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If you look at a lot of older RL players in the FM database, they do tend to have a bunch of PPMs. Kinda makes sense that players pick up a couple of habits over the years. It might need some fine tuning regarding what PPMs are taught to players (I remember every single defender in FM19 being taught to stay back, so even in the extremely rare case you found a FM19 fullback that had capabilities going forward they were often messed up by that PPM), but all in all I'd find it a bit weird to have some 27 yr old in his prime with no PPMs at all. Perhaps they could also make picking up PPMs a bit more natural, where they develop certain habits by playing that way for a while, so a player told to tackle harder might naturally develop the "Dives into tackles" trait.

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2 hours ago, Freakiie said:

Perhaps they could also make picking up PPMs a bit more natural, where they develop certain habits by playing that way for a while, so a player told to tackle harder might naturally develop the "Dives into tackles" trait.

I like the idea of this a lot.

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3 hours ago, sidslayer said:

I don’t dispute you see these issues. Perhaps I don’t because I’m not looking for them? The integrity of the game world isn’t ruined for me because the only thing I’m interested in with AI against AI is the result. I’m not concerned about how the ME gets to it.

Now if I was seeing what you see in MY matches I’d be concerned. But I’m not. 

I’m very confused by this central play issue. What is it that people expect to see? Through balls from my CM to my ST? I see this. Nice build up between my CM’s that goes out wide then back in for a shot or through ball? I see this. One twos between my CM’s? I see this. Of course the ball will end up wide at some point. Utilising and stretching the pitch is intrinsic to any game of football. What is it that is missing? What variety of goals are you not seeing? In your matches, not Ai vs Ai.

I haven't actually played any games since the ME beta. I assumed watching AI games would give a true indication of how the ME performed, am I wrong? Do you see through balls from AI teams in your games?

Edited by Weller1980

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21 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

I haven't actually played any games since the ME beta. I assumed watching AI games would give a true indication of how the ME performed, am I wrong? Do you see through balls from AI teams in your games?

Why would you consider that the true indication though?

If you ask me, all it tells you is how the AI interacts with this ME. Now, you can definitely argue that that's not working as intended using data from AI vs AI matches. However, arguing that because of this the ME as a whole is broken when players here have shown that you can do a lot in this ME and that with a proper set up a lot of the issues people here complain about can at least be mitigated, if not fully avoided, I'd say it's a bit shortsighted to claim the ME is broken simply by looking at what the AI is doing with it.

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I've yet to see short through balls from AMC to centre forward in possession football. There are sure through balls -a bit wide- to inside forwards from deep MC playmaker. If I remember correct FM 2020 blogs talked about improved central play before game was sold . It is improved according to FM'19 for sure. Another problem seems to be deep setpiece  goals. They are common in my game. Argument against no simulation problems for me it is like, In a Napoleonic war game where soldier uniform and regiment names should not be  important.

Edited by baris28

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8 minutes ago, GOODNAME said:

So many goals from cornets and free kicks (headers) stop itttt 

You're right I had a trumpet score from a indirect free kick and my Inside Trombone couldn't hit a cow's backside with a banjo

Edited by diddydaddydoddy

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59 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

I haven't actually played any games since the ME beta. I assumed watching AI games would give a true indication of how the ME performed, am I wrong? Do you see through balls from AI teams in your games?

Absolutely I do see them. The 1v1 Real scored against me recently came from a midfield through ball.

I don’t doubt there are issues, I’m just not seeing them to such an extent as they’re obvious or ruining the game for me.

Again, watching AI vs AI has no implication on my enjoyment or view of the ME. The only ME I care about is the one being shown to me whilst my team is playing. How my team and tactic looks and works with the ME. I’m not managing the AI teams. And the AI teams I’m up against are not showing me anything that makes me frustrated with the ME or indeed my team and tactic. 

I concede from set pieces occasionally, and crosses and through balls and penalties and worldies. If I didn’t then something would be wrong. But I don’t see any pattern to it. I’m also scoring a good variety of different types of goal, my tactic is producing this. If I set up to primarily score from crosses or 1v1’s, one dimensional stuff, then I’m sure I’d notice this too.

If I was conceding lots of one type of goal I’d look to change something in my tactic. That’s all I could do, right? I’m not going to just pray it stops. There’s a reason it’s happening. But seeing as it’s not, for me, I’ve obviously fluked a strong tactic.

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If I can get my FM to log in to YouTube I have a good example of some midfield play leading to a through ball that my striker ran onto in the box and finished off. No awful defending either, just beat the press with some good passing. Just a blank screen whenever I try to login though, regardless of may resolution or skin.

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One more confirmation that this year Football Manager is more like set piece manager.

My fullback which is the corner taker from the right side (for inswing) and my taker for freekicks also right side have 21 assists.

He's only 13 at corner taking and free kick taking.

Imagine if i had David Beckham in FM20 ...

I'm curios how many assists Trend Alexander and Robertson had the last season.It's unreal for a left back to have such insane stats in only 25 games.

LE : I play him as a WB(De) in a 4-2-3-1.So not to much assists from crosses.

FULLBACK.png

Edited by BoGdy

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2 minutes ago, BoGdy said:

One more confirmation that this year Football Manager is more like set piece manager.

My fullback which is the corner taker from the right side (for inswing) and my taker for freekicks also right side have 21 assists.

He's only 13 at corner taking and free kick taking.

Imagine if i had David Beckham in FM20 ...

LE : I play him as a WB(De) in a 4-2-3-1.So not to much assists from crosses.

FULLBACK.png

Lol 21 assists, he is like Michael Laudrup or Andres Iniesta.

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What I've read  previously about how match result calculated before hand -don't remember who but previously written by Dev team- is the simulation AI vs AI that much separated from human play I wonder? Surely player has a chance to change outcome of a match more than an AI. Simulation is same for all player and the AI isn't it. Maybe Neil should answer.

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11 minutes ago, Sharkn20 said:

Lol 21 assists, he is like Michael Laudrup or Andres Iniesta.

Or Trent Alexander-Arnold and Andy Robertson ;)

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20 minutes ago, BoGdy said:

One more confirmation that this year Football Manager is more like set piece manager.

My fullback which is the corner taker from the right side (for inswing) and my taker for freekicks also right side have 21 assists.

He's only 13 at corner taking and free kick taking.

Imagine if i had David Beckham in FM20 ...

I'm curios how many assists Trend Alexander and Robertson had the last season.It's unreal for a left back to have such insane stats in only 25 games.

LE : I play him as a WB(De) in a 4-2-3-1.So not to much assists from crosses.

FULLBACK.png

In fairness 13 for both, at the level you’re playing at, is massive. Regardless, you’ve obviously managed to hit on something with your routines for those sorts of stats. Any chance you could share them?

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3 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

In fairness 13 for both, at the level you’re playing at, is massive. Regardless, you’ve obviously managed to hit on something with your routines for those sorts of stats. Any chance you could share them?

This is my routine for corners.It's the same from left side.

For free kicks I have the default setup.

I agree that 13 for both are good for the level I am playing at the moment, but I still think this is to much.

Ok, maybe he can cross that ball perfect most of the time, but the finishing from other players is insane.

set pieces.png

Edited by BoGdy

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I'm surprised ai vs ai is vastly different to human play and I'm surprised ai playing against humans has an effect on the types of goals scored. From my own oberservations ai v ai I see very little goal variation to the point where I think its not playable. I'm amazed how different people interpret the ME for me it's quite clear, central play is a big missing component to the ME. 

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1 minute ago, BoGdy said:

This is my routine for corners.It's the same from left side.

For free kicks I have the default setup.

set pieces.png

Do you score many flick on’s to the back post? Mixed in with a healthy amount of goals from one of your wall of 3 positioned near the front post?

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6 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

Do you score many flick on’s to the back post? Mixed in with a healthy amount of goals from one of your wall of 3 positioned near the front post?

I think I scored like 3 or 4 goals at the back post.Most of the goals came from my DCR (see screenshot).

He's the guy.

hovstad.png

Edited by BoGdy

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Just now, BoGdy said:

I think I scored like 3 or 4 goals at the back post.Most of the goals came from my DCR (see screenshot).

I see. I’ve also seen this set up before somewhere. The poster highlighted that it was important to have someone on the back post to pick up any flick ons, in this case your DCR made, if he wasn’t banging them straight in with his head.

There are many quirks to this game. Last year it was long throw ins ...

Wish I saw the sorts of stats you’re getting from your LB. He’s possessed... 

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10 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

I'm surprised ai vs ai is vastly different to human play and I'm surprised ai playing against humans has an effect on the types of goals scored. From my own oberservations ai v ai I see very little goal variation to the point where I think its not playable. I'm amazed how different people interpret the ME for me it's quite clear, central play is a big missing component to the ME. 

The types of tactics we humans can create are always going to be different to what the AI creates. Stands to reason what the ME shows us would be different.

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2 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

I see. I’ve also seen this set up before somewhere. The poster highlighted that it was important to have someone on the back post to pick up any flick ons, in this case your DCR made, if he wasn’t banging them straight in with his head.

There are many quirks to this game. Last year it was long throw ins ...

Wish I saw the sorts of stats you’re getting from your LB. He’s possessed... 

I use this setup from FM17.Always had good results, but after this season I will change it, cuz it seems more like an exploit.

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Thinking about it, watching ai vs ai should give an accurate interpretation of the ME how else wouls SI test the ME? 

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7 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

Thinking about it, watching ai vs ai should give an accurate interpretation of the ME how else wouls SI test the ME? 

But the game isn’t played AI vs AI. It’s played by US. I’m sure SI look at it in great detail but I doubt very much they just analyse AI vs AI, as like you’ve pointed out, it doesn’t look particularly pretty.

It’s a base. A blank sheet. SI expect us to add to it, manipulate it, adjust to it. Because most people play the game by managing a team and playing against the AI.

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7 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

But the game isn’t played AI vs AI. It’s played by US. I’m sure SI look at it in great detail but I doubt very much they just analyse AI vs AI, as like you’ve pointed out, it doesn’t look particularly pretty.

It’s a base. A blank sheet. SI expect us to add to it, manipulate it, adjust to it. Because most people play the game by managing a team and playing against the AI.

you realise just because you're not seeing certain issues which your use of tactics might just mask underlying issues isn't an implication that the issues aren't there. So just because you're not seeing them is academic to them being a fundamental issue for the integrity of simulation in terms of what the match engine can produce. Whether you don't want to acknowledge them is fine  but they're still there.

What way do you try to get your teams playing just out of interest. The match engine can produce certain styles but not others so you might be just using a style that the match engine has a bias towards...it could be that simple

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Watching AI vs AI will only give you a limited view of the what the ME is capable of because the AI has a fixed number of combinations it uses depending on the scenario, whereas the human player can be a lot more creative. 

For example, most AI teams will play defensively when it considers itself the underdog. To do that, it selects a low mentality and a high number of defensive roles. The human player, on the other hand, can play aggressively because they want to catch teams out. Hence, a human player can win the league with a team predicted to finish last, whereas the chances of the AI doing that are incredibly small. 

What this tells us is that if the AI cannot do something the player can do, then it's not using the tools available to it properly. So if you watch an AI vs AI match and see a lack of central player and through passes, it's more likely to do with how the teams have been set-up than it is with defects in the ME. 

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Just now, akkm said:

you realise just because you're not seeing certain issues which your use of tactics might just mask underlying issues isn't an implication that the issues aren't there. So just because you're not seeing them is academic to them being a fundamental issue for the integrity of simulation in terms of what the match engine can produce. Whether you don't want to acknowledge them is fine  but they're still there.

What way do you try to get your teams playing just out of interest. The match engine can produce certain styles but not others so you might be just using a style that the match engine has a bias towards...it could be that simple

This is a good point. I’ve stated that I do not deny there are issues. I’ve seen them myself in FM20. I know they are there, but as you rightly point out, tactics can and do mitigate them.

I’ve answered it further back in the thread but I’m playing a very simple (in fact deliberately simple) 4123. I start nearly all games on a cautious mentality with a lower line of engagement and a standard defensive line. I often switch it up to positive. I use CM(auto) on both my CM’s, DM(s) for my CDM deliberately so that there are no PI’s at all. I let my players play their game using only their traits. I also use WB(auto) for both my FB’s so that when I adjust my mentality I have 4 players that act as my heartbeat. My front 3 are a W(a), IW(a) and I change the role of my ST game by game. But all 3 of my forwards I leave as they are. No PI’s. This is deliberate. My 2 CB’s are BPD’s again left alone and my FB’s are the only players I have PI’s for. Can’t remember what off the top of my head but nothing unusual. My idea is to draw my opponent in and then hit them on the break with pace and power. I also find that we hold on to the ball outside the area very well looking for an opening against teams that park the bus. Sometimes a through ball, sometimes a cross. We wait for an opening.

I’m no tactical genius but the issues being discussed I am just not seeing by playing like this. I’m seeing hardly any cheese at all. Either for me or against.

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2 hours ago, akkm said:

you realise just because you're not seeing certain issues which your use of tactics might just mask underlying issues isn't an implication that the issues aren't there. So just because you're not seeing them is academic to them being a fundamental issue for the integrity of simulation in terms of what the match engine can produce. Whether you don't want to acknowledge them is fine  but they're still there.

What way do you try to get your teams playing just out of interest. The match engine can produce certain styles but not others so you might be just using a style that the match engine has a bias towards...it could be that simple

This. The game seems fundamentally unbalanced this year, so some people stumble upon tactics that don’t seem to have overly ‘game-breaking’ issues and argue that the game is ‘fine’.

Others, by choosing perfectly reasonable tactics that unbeknownst to them unbalance the game, encounter what they feel are unplayable issues.

As an example, intensive pressing overpowers the AI, without the game adequately modelling fatigue to reduce its effectiveness. Corners to the near post get too many goals.

It feels like we’re trying to pretend Monopoly is an accurate representation of managing a property portfolio, and we get excited when it gets a new box every year. The ME doesn’t appear fit for purpose this year.

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Is it a known issue, that my wide players ALWAYS cross the ball to long post? It is really annoying. My fullbacks and my wingers all have PI's "cross to near post", I have TI "low crosses". But it looks like it doesn't matter - they constantly making long, float crosses. If the game doesn't care about the instructions I make in tactics screen, can I call it a bug? Or is it just "my tactics"? 

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6 minutes ago, szp said:

Is it a known issue, that my wide players ALWAYS cross the ball to long post? It is really annoying. My fullbacks and my wingers all have PI's "cross to near post", I have TI "low crosses". But it looks like it doesn't matter - they constantly making long, float crosses. If the game doesn't care about the instructions I make in tactics screen, can I call it a bug? Or is it just "my tactics"? 

It's been a known issue for about five years now.

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