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Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread

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20 dakika önce, craigcwwe said:

Immersion breaking if anything first season winning the league with a lower mid table side like Spal. 

I hope it's only that. Isn't it how they score should be important as well as AI in this simulation. I hope better simulation first and then better AI. 

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In my opinion the reason why he won the league with SPAL is an AI issue rather than the ME being broken.

I don't really mind there being game breaking tactics out there, the AI just needs to develop better tactics of their own, especially at the elite level.

I don't think we are ever going to get an intentionally more difficult game though because the majority of people play more casually and might get turned off if they can't be successful.

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14 minutos atrás, Freakiie disse:

You realize star ratings are relative to your team and are thus completely irrelevant for judging how strong his team is?

So, every squad have at least one 5 stars player on each position? Otherwise what is the reason the best player on your squad in that position is not an automatic 5 stars? 

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8 minutes ago, thiagoanjo said:

So, every squad have at least one 5 stars player on each position? Otherwise what is the reason the best player on your squad in that position is not an automatic 5 stars? 

Not sure I've ever had a situation without a 5* potential player at the club. It's definitely relative to your club otherwise you wouldn't get two star players who would be five star at other teams in the same division.

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27 minutes ago, thiagoanjo said:

So, every squad have at least one 5 stars player on each position? Otherwise what is the reason the best player on your squad in that position is not an automatic 5 stars? 

Wat.

How did you make that logical leap?

It's relative to your team, so it looks at how good a player is compared to the average standard of your team. In other words a 5* player would have to be far better than the average of your team. Situation like this rarely happen because well... either your player is way too good for your team and would be long gone before he reaches that point or your team average simply is so good that it's impossible to have someone far above everyone else.

For a relegation candidate in La Liga pretty much every player in the Real or Barca first eleven would be a 5* player. At Barca though the only one that might hit 5* is Messi and at Madrid, well don't think they have anyone now that Ronaldo left, since there's only like 4 players that would be that much better than the rest of the team in the entire world.

Edited by Freakiie

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They've made every damn team go into a low block which then leads to only higher tempos and mentalities being viable.

This would be fine if the restriction was players but it's not, this happens at every level. Not every team in the world is that organised and not every team has the players to play a low block but the match engine doesn't care.

That's why center play is not viable unless you are doing it at high tempos or counter attacking. Every bloody play goes outside because the AI just crowds the centre, it's exhausting.

Basically the match engine forces you to play a certain way because it's no longer about players ability, none of the mental stats mean anything anymore, every defender is prime Pique and can track every run and every pass with ease.

Football manager is no longer player based, the match engine decides everything and player stats mean jack.

What the hell happened to these games after FM 18? I noticed FM 19 was the first edition where they killed center player completely and it's carried over to this version. It doesn't seem like a bug, it seems like a decision was made. I haven't even done two seasons in this game, I get frustrated after 1 and a half. 

Edited by bcereus

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26 minutes ago, bcereus said:

They've made every damn team go into a low block which then leads to only higher tempos and mentalities being viable.

This would be fine if the restriction was players but it's not, this happens at every level. Not every team in the world is that organised and not every team has the players to play a low block but the match engine doesn't care.

That's why center play is not viable unless you are doing it at high tempos or counter attacking. Every bloody play goes outside because the AI just crowds the centre, it's exhausting.

Basically the match engine forces you to play a certain way because it's no longer about players ability, none of the mental stats mean anything anymore, every defender is prime Pique and can track every run and every pass with ease.

Football manager is no longer player based, the match engine decides everything and player stats mean jack.

What the hell happened to these games after FM 18? I noticed FM 19 was the first edition where they killed center player completely and it's carried over to this version. It doesn't seem like a bug, it seems like a decision was made. I haven't even done two seasons in this game, I get frustrated after 1 and a half. 

I agree to some of what you're saying but please back up it up with evidence, evidence of each point would be useful in them changing it. 

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So the simulation is correct about how goals scored but only AI programming fault for open space middle? Did anyone test player vs player I wonder. That's how good  strategy&simulation tested hotseat playing both sides by the same player.:)

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb Freakiie:

You shove the opposition all the way into the box and then play a very slow and patient game and wonder why there are no through balls? If it wasn't for, as you pointed out, the AI not handling heavy pressing well and condition in general being completely irrelevant in FM allowing you to press like madman for 90 minutes without issues you'd get overrun on the counter while being insanely easy to defend against because you endlessly ping the ball around.

 

The point of the passing and patient game is to pull the opponents defense apart and not just cross in , I said nothing about through balls only where the goals are scored from and what happens in reality.

 

The whole point is that its not possible to pull apart the narrow defenses with passing because the ai is not intelligent enough in terms of offensive movement and making the right passing decisions .

 

Not everyone wants to play constant counter attack football followed by high pressing .

 

 

Edited by thejay

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If you need proof for the lack of central play, look no further than this:
GPKygln.png

Only a few games left before the end of the season, this is the list of the top assist-men of the league. 
They're all wingbacks and wingers, those who play on the side of the field. 
There's no single AMC player in that list, or even central midfielder for that matter, except for Stulac (but he's my player and I know he made those assists with set pieces).

The list of the top assist-men in the current Serie A season is quite different, As shown here.
Luis Alberto, Gomez, Pellegrini, Kulusevski, Bentancur, most assistmen play in the center of the field, almost all of them play as AMC in real life, and much of these assists are short through pass from just outside the box.

I'm enjoying the game but I think the current ME is failing to represent realistic central play because defenses sitting deep and narrow seems impossible to break with a central through pass, while it shouldn't be THAT difficult.
Besides, you can see it's not a "it's your tactic" problem, as it affects all the teams of the league, mine and AI's.

[EDIT]
Another thing that it's breaking the game's realism for me, is... (and this will unsettle most players, I'm sure) 

... tactics matter too much.

There, I've said it.
I'm managing Empoli in Serie A, freshly promoted... And I'm third after 34 games, I know I'm good but I shouldn't be THAT good, my players skills shouldn't allow us to be up there (and trash all bigger italian teams) even if Pep Guardiola himself was the coach instead of me. 
I expected a challenge to survive relegation, not to play in the Champions League the next year...

 

Edited by Muja

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1 hour ago, BigV said:

I agree to some of what you're saying but please back up it up with evidence, evidence of each point would be useful in them changing it. 

It's very time consuming for me to do this as I work and only have a few hours to play the game. I'd essentially be doing their job for them. Also I am 100% confident they already know this is an issue, some of their major updates were specifically about this issue. The problem is that they have discovered they've kind of coded themselves into a corner and they don't know how to fix it. That's why they killed the possession game and counter attack is the flavour of the match engine.

This game makes no logical sense. The idea behind possession football is primarily defensive and to also leave your opponents tired because they have to chase you around. This means it controls the opponent and also tires them out. I don't think the match engine simulates tiredness very well or errors in shape, this means players losing concentration after being moved about the pitch for the whole game. 

The ME keeps perfect low block shape all the time with any team, I've tried at Championship and Prem level, no difference, every team is perfect and they do what they intended, force the play outwide and force the cross.

Then you finally get to the crossing, your fullback or even winger will actually SLOW DOWN to let the opposition play catch up so they can block their cross, it's incredible. And you think maybe they are just very quick and can't do this for 90mins, NOPE they will close you down all day long with no mistake or tiredness.

So what does all this lead to for people trying to play the patient game and not fast counter attacking football? It means the play will be forced wide, your crosses will be blocked or your fullback just cuts back to the edge of the area where your midfielder takes a long shot. I've seen this so many times it's hilarious. That's why people are complaining about long shots and set pieces being the only goals they score. 

I would bet you the people ,like me, who notice these things play at a lower tempo which allows the AI to get into their uber duper low block and then the game is essentially dead once that happens.

Player stats mean nothing , every team weaker than you goes into a low block, your players refuse to play through balls and play ends up outwide. 

 

Rise , repeat.

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They made some major change after FM 18 that they are persisting with, this killed center play. They are continuing with what they did and essentially building on top of it.

FM 19/20 have the same issue, if it's rotten at the core, nothing you do to mess with the conversion rates and other minor tweaks will matter. There is a fundamental code base behind the lack of center play and they can't/won't change it back.

If it's the same next year, I'm not going to buy that game, it kills the simulation for me.

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2 horas atrás, Freakiie disse:

Wat.

How did you make that logical leap?

It's relative to your team, so it looks at how good a player is compared to the average standard of your team. In other words a 5* player would have to be far better than the average of your team. Situation like this rarely happen because well... either your player is way too good for your team and would be long gone before he reaches that point or your team average simply is so good that it's impossible to have someone far above everyone else.

For a relegation candidate in La Liga pretty much every player in the Real or Barca first eleven would be a 5* player. At Barca though the only one that might hit 5* is Messi and at Madrid, well don't think they have anyone now that Ronaldo left, since there's only like 4 players that would be that much better than the rest of the team in the entire world.

So the league where you are doesnt make any difference in the stars? If your player in the Serie A are 3,5 stars at your squad, he can be poor for Serie A? 

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1 hour ago, thiagoanjo said:

So the league where you are doesnt make any difference in the stars? If your player in the Serie A are 3,5 stars at your squad, he can be poor for Serie A? 

I think the stars represent the player's abilities compared to your GOAL for the current season.

If your goal is to escape relegation and your players have 5 stars, it means he's very good for THAT, not that he's among the best players in the league.

So, for example, in my save I manage Empoli in Serie A, and my striker Zaza has 4 stars. He'd have at least a star less if I was managing Juve

Edited by Muja

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4 hours ago, Cadoni said:

Where is the option which I have to choose HoYD for intake youths?

Check under staff, responsibilities

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While this discussion about the stars that no one in the world really understands is very fun, WTF are we even talking about?  There are no 5 star players there in the screenshot, in fact, no one has more than 3.5 stars :P

That aside, it's not all that unusual, SPAL has some very decent strikers (Petagna is one of best supportish big guy/deep lying strikers in the game, Pellegri is basically 19 year old mini Lewandowski, and Paloschi is still very decent) which is almost the only thing that matters in these stupid multi striker/super heavy pressure tactics that have been drastically overperforming (basically to the level where it can be called exploit) for more than a decade now. At least it's not that even more stupid narrow 4-3-3 that is basically non-existant in reality :P

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5 hours ago, Muja said:

I think the stars represent the player's abilities compared to your GOAL for the current season.

If your goal is to escape relegation and your players have 5 stars, it means he's very good for THAT, not that he's among the best players in the league.

So, for example, in my save I manage Empoli in Serie A, and my striker Zaza has 4 stars. He'd have at least a star less if I was managing Juve

 

Stars are for how good the player is for the league youre playing in, well atleast that was the case for all games before this one. I dont know if they changed with this one because i didnt buy it.

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Stars, in the tactic screen at least, relate to how good a player is in the role you’ve chosen for him and his importance for you squad overall.

Stars in the squad screen, or player profile show you how good he is/could be in your squad overall and are representative of his ability in the game world overall. They change all the time, they’re fluid, and they’re just a guide.

Knowing the players Spal possess they should not be winning the league. However with the right tactics teams can certainly over perform. Cloughs forest. Wilders Sheff United etc etc.

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I find the game a bit easier since the last update. Weaker AI teams seem more cautious in this version and don't pose too much threat.

 

Hopefully SI still has some ME tweaks left for the last official update. 

 

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2 hours ago, Arnar said:

 

Stars are for how good the player is for the league youre playing in, well atleast that was the case for all games before this one. I dont know if they changed with this one because i didnt buy it.

This is fundamentally incorrect. Stars represent how good is that player related to YOUR team.

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Anyway, I concur stars may be misleading. 

I want to focus on the lack of central play, though.

I've got to a point I'd like to edit the preset tactics of all the AI managers so they don't always sit deep and narrow that much (can it be done?)

Edited by Muja

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22 minutes ago, Muja said:

Anyway, I concur stars may be misleading. 

I want to focus on the lack of central play, though.

I've got to a point I'd like to edit the preset tactics of all the AI managers so they don't always sit deep and narrow that much (can it be done?)

I think this is a very good idea, maybe you'll be able to do that using FMRTE, I don't know if it's possible using the official editor.

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To an extent yes @Muja You can edit preset tactics of AI managers with IGE. Editing their Sitting back line and Width line of AI manager it can make them not sitting deep and Possibly not narrow as well. 

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vor 10 Stunden schrieb bcereus:

They made some major change after FM 18 that they are persisting with, this killed center play. They are continuing with what they did and essentially building on top of it.

FM 19/20 have the same issue, if it's rotten at the core, nothing you do to mess with the conversion rates and other minor tweaks will matter. There is a fundamental code base behind the lack of center play and they can't/won't change it back.

If it's the same next year, I'm not going to buy that game, it kills the simulation for me.

The single most important change is the seperate attacking and defending width instructions introduced in fm 19

 

Yes its realsitic but the me is not advanced enough offensively to be able to pull apart defenses by intelligent movement. 

 

Earlier fms masked this problem because the ai could not play narrow in defense and wider in attack, now he can which results in a very stale attacking part of the game. 

 

I dont think this is fixable in the short run, we probably have to wait until the offensive part gets more developed or si removes the width instructions which they probably won't do. 

 

So see you in FM 2025 or something like that 

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2 hours ago, Sharkn20 said:

This is fundamentally incorrect. Stars represent how good is that player related to YOUR team.

So if I have only Messi's in my team, they would get 2,5 stars? Because they're bang average in my team? 

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2 hours ago, ferrarinseb said:

To an extent yes @Muja You can edit preset tactics of AI managers with IGE. Editing their Sitting back line and Width line of AI manager it can make them not sitting deep and Possibly not narrow as well. 

I've just bought the in-game editor, fiddling with it now... are you more experienced with it? Is there a way to, for example, reduce by 5 the sitting back and width stats for ALL managers in-game without doing it manually for each one of them?

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Just now, Muja said:

I've just bought the in-game editor, fiddling with it now... are you more experienced with it? Is there a way to, for example, reduce by 5 the sitting back and width stats for ALL managers in-game without doing it manually for each one of them?

Not experienced alot. Just tried to fiddle with things to see what happens. Not Possible to Edit all Managers at a time with IGE. You can edit one at a time which is very time consuming though. If you want to talk more about it DM so that we can discuss with out side tracking the feedback thread. 

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12 hours ago, bcereus said:

Player stats mean nothing , every team weaker than you goes into a low block, your players refuse to play through balls and play ends up outwide

Again I agree with most of what you're saying but posting in the thread without evidence will only do so much of what you expect. That also goes to the other people posting regarding feedback.

Ofc player stats mean something, you can tell the difference from a 9 pace to 13+, even the technical side example tackling, passing, crossing etc. What I've seen so far of this new ME is it seems easier to score and possibly too easy for the human to win over the AI. Every team doesn't go into a low block nor do they refuse to do through balls. There have been vids shown of this in the thread, outright saying they don't when AT TIMES they do is just trying to push your point as fact when it isn't. I'd argue SOME attributes are weaker than expected, composure for starters regarding the 1v1 goals or in general and probably some other mental stats like workrate in the ME with a pressing team acts like a pressing player when they physically shouldn't be able to do so for long periods of the game etc. 

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38 minutes ago, Muja said:

I've just bought the in-game editor, fiddling with it now... are you more experienced with it? Is there a way to, for example, reduce by 5 the sitting back and width stats for ALL managers in-game without doing it manually for each one of them?

Nope, dont think with any editor you can change all values together.

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3 minutes ago, BigV said:

What I've seen so far of this new ME is it seems easier to score and possibly too easy for the human to win over the AI. 

I think that's an inevitable step towards getting a better ME.

For a long time scoring has been nerfed, the chances have been there, but players have been unable to take them - often in an extremely unconvincing way.  This ME seems to have reduced chance creation a bit, but increased conversion rates (going by observation in my own game) - is it balanced yet? Probably not. 

The better chance taking is very, very welcome and probably still needs to go further,  What now needs to happen is that defensive play needs to be reviewed. Not just the defenders themselves, but at a team level, so that the breakdown of chances happens more realistically.  Doing that will reduce the number of chances created bringing ease of scoring down, but without nerfing the attackers again.

But, I think we are going to be stuck with overachieving tactics until SI are able to incorporate a better approach to in-game fatigue that makes the hyper-attacking; hyper-pressing tactics fail as they would in reality.

 

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5 hours ago, Sharkn20 said:

This is fundamentally incorrect. Stars represent how good is that player related to YOUR team.

Then why does it say current ability (division) and operating on a leading PREMIER DIVISION level???

firmino.JPG

militao.JPG

Edited by Arnar

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5 minutes ago, Arnar said:

Then why does it say current ability (division) and operating on a leading PREMIER DIVISION level???

firmino.JPG

militao.JPG

What do you mean? the description is separate to the stars.... firmino there is a leading prem division player .. but his stars are 4 star compared to other players in his position in your team...

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6 minuti fa, Arnar ha scritto:

Then why does it say current ability (division) and operating on a leading PREMIER DIVISION level???

firmino.JPG

militao.JPG

Someone will correct me, but I think that you should distinguish stars on

1/  players already at your club

2/  players outside of your squad (opposition players)

For 1, stars represent your staff opinion on player's current/potential ability relative to other squad players in his natural position.

For 2, stars represent your staff opinion on player's current/potential ability relative to ability of your league.

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14 minutes ago, Arnar said:

Then why does it say current ability (division) and operating on a leading PREMIER DIVISION level???

Why don't you load up a save with a small PL team and when you see they are getting 4* ratings for players who aren't rated as a leading player then you'll have answered your own question.

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2 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

Someone will correct me, but I think that you should distinguish stars on

1/  players already at your club

2/  players outside of your squad (opposition players)

For 1, stars represent your staff opinion on player's current/potential ability relative to other squad players in his natural position.

For 2, stars represent your staff opinion on player's current/potential ability relative to ability of your league.

Why would that be necessary when in the screenshot you've quoted it gives you both of these types of information.

The star rating is 1, the coach report telling you what level of PL player they are is 2. You get these on scout reports as well.

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5 hours ago, BadAss88 said:

So if I have only Messi's in my team, they would get 2,5 stars? Because they're bang average in my team? 

Try it yourself with the editor, set all the players with "20" attribute everywhere and get back to us with your findings.

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4 hours ago, Arnar said:

Then why does it say current ability (division) and operating on a leading PREMIER DIVISION level???

firmino.JPG

militao.JPG

And for my PSV side a 2.5* player is considered a leading Eredivisie player, simply because my team is far above the Eredivisie standard, but compared to the rest of my team Butland isn't anything special so he's only rated as 2.5*. If you continue with Liverpool and improve the squad as a whole Firminho's star rating will drop as well, but compared to the PL he'll remain a Leading PL player (unless the PL as a whole gets a massive boost, but that'd be close to impossible).

image.thumb.png.73ffc7bc6befce33069355a502a134bb.png

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11 minutes ago, Freakiie said:

And for my PSV side a 2.5* player is considered a leading Eredivisie player, simply because my team is far above the Eredivisie standard, but compared to the rest of my team Butland isn't anything special so he's only rated as 2.5*. If you continue with Liverpool and improve the squad as a whole Firminho's star rating will drop as well, but compared to the PL he'll remain a Leading PL player (unless the PL as a whole gets a massive boost, but that'd be close to impossible).

image.thumb.png.73ffc7bc6befce33069355a502a134bb.png

Yeah i got coach rating, team report etc. All mixed up this morning, i havent played for over a year and i went and refreshed my memory this afternoon. So please ignore what i was saying, lack of sleep and posting without thinking is not a good combio. I apologize.

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3 hours ago, Sharkn20 said:

Try it yourself with the editor, set all the players with "20" attribute everywhere and get back to us with your findings.

Euh..I ain't got time for that!

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Sometimes, the training calendar does not let me fill up all three training slots on a specific day, usually leaving the last training slot unchangeable/open even I set a training for it. After I progress a couple days and try again, it's no longer blocked. I can change all three slots for the mentioned day.

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6 hours ago, Arnar said:

Then why does it say current ability (division) and operating on a leading PREMIER DIVISION level???

firmino.JPG

militao.JPG

Do you have another player with 5 stars???????????? Or 3 stars??????????? What does it say in the player report????????????

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'The kicker must not play the ball again until it has touched another player'

 

Technically the striker is acting in accordance with the rules. However I'm not sure it is realistic for them to just stand still on the spot until someone else plays it.

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Not a bug. Once a penalty has been taken, the ball has to be touched by another player (or go out of play) before the penalty taker can touch it again. If they hit the bar and then try to score straight from the rebound, it's a free kick for the other team.

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6 minutes ago, Bobek said:

Is it bug? 

Striker literally frozen  

Rules state penalty taker is not allowed to touch the ball on rebound I believe if he hits the crossbar

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Is anyone firmly fixed on getting FM21 as soon as it's released? Serious question, besides an updated database, I really don't see the fuss with the game anymore. Maybe I've just lost interest as the years have gone on but I really can't get into it like in previous years.

Edited by bahrami

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