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Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread

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4 минуты назад, bleventozturk сказал:

lot of people who think the mentality system is just fine.

Oh I'm from Russia so I know something about people who think about systems just fine :brock:

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16 minutes ago, dannyfc said:

I agree defending is fine in this example, they just get beat to the ball and caught out of position by a great pass. 

Without defensive lapses the vast majority of goals in real life wouldn't happen. 

Tbh I'd prefer more defensive errors and incentive for play in tight spaces rather than the mind numbing passes into wide spaces you see again and again. 

This, 100%. The alternative is the complete dullness of FM 19.

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2 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

Oh I'm from Russia so I know something about people who think about systems just fine :brock:

Lol, true that. I am originally from Turkey (have been living in US most of my life) and I know exactly what you mean my friend :). Trust me, our 'system' is even worse.

 

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13 minutes ago, bleventozturk said:

Again, not seeing this in my matches. My team totally dominates the possession, around 70%, when I play against much weaker teams, who play defensive. If you see this in AI vs AI matches, I think that means it is maybe not an issue with the ME, but with AI's tactical choices. Pressing to win the ball back from defensive teams works for me in the 6 matches that I played.

I said AI VS AI 

 

Not user matches

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5 minutes ago, Sharkn20 said:

Poor defensive effort, clearly.

That's football. 

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2 minutes ago, andu1 said:

I said AI VS AI 

 

Not user matches

Yes, I was not disagreeing with your post. 

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IST8EHk.png

This is an AI vs AI game, simulated in full detail. I watched the full game and the reason for the possession stats is that the Leicester back 4 + DM + keeper would just pass the ball to each other for minutes on end in their own half. Man Utd pressed high and the Leicester defence would just play the ball sideways or back. I counted over 40 passes before someone tried a more direct ball forward. Meanwhile Man Utd just played the ball directly forward/ran at the defence whenever they got the ball.

That being said, Leicester started playing more direct when several goals down and I think the possession stat might be a bit bugged, because what I saw certainly didn't look like a 60/40 split.

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4 minutes ago, endtime said:

IST8EHk.png

This is an AI vs AI game, simulated in full detail. I watched the full game and the reason for the possession stats is that the Leicester back 4 + DM + keeper would just pass the ball to each other for minutes on end in their own half. Man Utd pressed high and the Leicester defence would just play the ball sideways or back. I counted over 40 passes before someone tried a more direct ball forward. Meanwhile Man Utd just played the ball directly forward/ran at the defence whenever they got the ball.

That being said, Leicester started playing more direct when several goals down and I think the possession stat might be a bit bugged, because what I saw certainly didn't look like a 60/40 split.

Exactly what I am seeing, the weaker teams get destroyed while having 60% possesion. The better team does not put the opponents under enough pressure so they just pass the ball sideways.

 

What were the total number of passes of both teams by the way?

Edited by andu1

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14 minutes ago, andu1 said:

What were the total number of passes of both teams by the way?

Man Utd: 331 completed/373 attempted, Leicester: 564 completed/640 attempted. 460 of Leicester's passes were made by the GK + back 4 + DM. 

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6 minutes ago, endtime said:

Man Utd: 331 completed/373 attempted, Leicester: 564 completed/640 attempted. 460 of Leicester's passes were made by the GK + back 4 + DM. 

Well, that's not good.

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23 минуты назад, endtime сказал:

IST8EHk.png

This is an AI vs AI game, simulated in full detail. I watched the full game and the reason for the possession stats is that the Leicester back 4 + DM + keeper would just pass the ball to each other for minutes on end in their own half. Man Utd pressed high and the Leicester defence would just play the ball sideways or back. I counted over 40 passes before someone tried a more direct ball forward. Meanwhile Man Utd just played the ball directly forward/ran at the defence whenever they got the ball.

That being said, Leicester started playing more direct when several goals down and I think the possession stat might be a bit bugged, because what I saw certainly didn't look like a 60/40 split.

I dont sure how is this possession issue affects for results (I hope its not a key influence because its important for me AI teams keep their media predictions places, no topclubs in midtable pernamently) but anyway this issue destroys game experience personally for me =(

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29 minutes ago, endtime said:

IST8EHk.png

This is an AI vs AI game, simulated in full detail. I watched the full game and the reason for the possession stats is that the Leicester back 4 + DM + keeper would just pass the ball to each other for minutes on end in their own half. Man Utd pressed high and the Leicester defence would just play the ball sideways or back. I counted over 40 passes before someone tried a more direct ball forward. Meanwhile Man Utd just played the ball directly forward/ran at the defence whenever they got the ball.

That being said, Leicester started playing more direct when several goals down and I think the possession stat might be a bit bugged, because what I saw certainly didn't look like a 60/40 split.

Where did the goals come from? If ManUtd played direct ball, at least I hope the goals came from open play, and not set pieces?

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4 minutes ago, bleventozturk said:

Where did the goals come from? If ManUtd played direct ball, at least I hope the goals came from open play, and not set pieces?

one corner, one IFK, four goals from open play. It was mostly Golovin cutting in a'la Robben and smashing in some ridiculous shot into the top corner, dribbling could probably be toned down a tad.

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42 minutes ago, endtime said:

Man Utd: 331 completed/373 attempted, Leicester: 564 completed/640 attempted. 460 of Leicester's passes were made by the GK + back 4 + DM. 

Maybe it would be best if you open a thread on match engine bug forum with the match you posted and the possession stats. So we can find what's SI stance on this, if they see it as an issue or not.

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38 minutes ago, Mr U Rosler said:

The point is, teams under the cosh, camping in there own half passing sideways and backwards is the antithesis of how they would normally behave. Normally they would concede territory and possession in the hope they can counter an opponent who has over committed, resulting in very low possession and completed passes stats but giving them a chance to score and get a result.

Retaining possession deep in your own half is a characteristic of certain elite teams and is beyond most normal teams, and then its not aimless or prolonged, but based on beating the press and then moving up the pitch.

Very odd behavior.   

Agreed. Another side effect of this behavior is that there is no risk in playing as attacking as you can. There is a reason why most FM players play with extremely attacking tactics. There is no risk, no penalty. That's why I keep saying that this mentality thing in the ME needs a drastic change. 

 

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what on earth has happened to defending.... they seem to be even more clueless now than ever. 

Its either pass-back after pass-back to the goalkeeper when another pass is clearly on, taking 10 mins to decide what they are going to do so lose the ball resulting in a 1 on 1 or 3 players charge to the same player to close down leaving other players free making schoolboy football look high level, Balls to the back post where a winger has 10 yards of space to read the paper then pick his spot is still a massive issue

 

Let me add goalkeepers are back to more statues also

 

Edited by Tangerine_Army

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1 hour ago, Nil14 said:

That's football. 

Clearly you haven't play FM in the past. No idea of the potential this franchise has and what this ME struggles are. Your feedback doesn't help to improve the overall experience.

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28 minutes ago, bleventozturk said:

Agreed. Another side effect of this behavior is that there is no risk in playing as attacking as you can. There is a reason why most FM players play with extremely attacking tactics. There is no risk, no penalty. That's why I keep saying that this mentality thing in the ME needs a drastic change. 

 

There was a risk, of being done on the break, balls over the top. But people didn’t like it. So SI changed it.

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29 minutes ago, bleventozturk said:

Agreed. Another side effect of this behavior is that there is no risk in playing as attacking as you can. There is a reason why most FM players play with extremely attacking tactics. There is no risk, no penalty. That's why I keep saying that this mentality thing in the ME needs a drastic change. 

 

On the contrary there very much still is risk. There was actually more risk previously, but as some have noted, it didn't go down well

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8 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

There was a risk, of being done on the break, balls over the top. But people didn’t like it. So SI changed it.

The balls over the top were too much. Even on fully defensive they were happening

.

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17 minutes ago, Sharkn20 said:

Clearly you haven't play FM in the past. No idea of the potential this franchise has and what this ME struggles are. Your feedback doesn't help to improve the overall experience.

Since FM2011. But I'm not here to measure each other. Everyone has his own opinion based on experience on what should be improved (mine is the attacking side of the game) and it's the developers job to assess it. I simply said I found nothing wrong with a nice goal I watched, at least nothing I'm concerned about. 

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24 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

On the contrary there very much still is risk. There was actually more risk previously, but as some have noted, it didn't go down well

Previously yes, I liked it, and majority didn't of course, but I'm not seeing much risk with the current ME. What did you experience to say that there is risk? Defending teams just try to keep the ball at their half with slow and short passing, not much of a threat.

This guy's matches are typically great examples of that. He plays against a team from Championship in this one, and he is 4 leagues down, and he starts attacking, then towards the end switches to very attacking, and almost gets a draw. He should get massacred really:

 

Edited by bleventozturk

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13 minutes ago, Tiger666 said:

The balls over the top were too much. Even on fully defensive they were happening

.

Have you tested this tactics with the new patch? What are your thoughts? I'm playing with much higher line of engagement, counter press and extremely urgent pressing intensity which causes some ball over the top here.

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5 minutes ago, bleventozturk said:

Previously yes, I liked it, and majority didn't of course, but I'm not seeing much risk with the current ME. What did you experience to say that there is risk? Defending teams just try to keep the ball at their half with slow and short passing, not much of a threat.

This guy's matches are typically great examples of that. He plays against a team from Championship in this one, and he is 4 leagues down, and he starts attacking, then towards the end switches to very attacking, and almost gets a draw:

 

I see plenty of defensive teams trying to launch balls past my high forward press in a bid to get out (only for me to win it in midfield because I have a very good split press system). Equally I can and have forced defensive teams to quit passing from the back and boot the ball long to get something going, recently restricted Bournemouth (i think) to 28% possession, which mostly consisted of them booting it long and not getting the ball back. 

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25 минут назад, themadsheep2001 сказал:

On the contrary there very much still is risk. There was actually more risk previously, but as some have noted, it didn't go down well

I can't say that attacking mentality is a kind of cheat, but this is could named overpowered isn't?

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1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I see plenty of defensive teams trying to launch balls past my high forward press in a bid to get out (only for me to win it in midfield because I have a very good split press system). Equally I can and have forced defensive teams to quit passing from the back and boot the ball long to get something going, recently restricted Bournemouth (i think) to 28% possession, which mostly consisted of them booting it long and not getting the ball back

Ok, my experience is similar. I press, and they have to kick long and loose the ball. I don't see them succeeding with those aimless balls though. I have never felt threatened so far, and from what you are saying you haven't conceded either?

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Just now, Novem9 said:

I can't say that attacking mentality is a kind of cheat, but this is could named overpowered isn't?

Not really, still leaves plenty of space behind it, if you move quickly into it. Leicester went aggressive at home to me and I was 2-1 down at half time, second half opened up the tempo, hit passes to space and crossed early; bypassing their press and not allowing them to get back in order meant hammered them 5-2 in the end since their high line was completely destabilised

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1 minute ago, bleventozturk said:

Ok, my experience is similar. I press, and they have to kick long and loose the ball. I don't see them succeeding with those aimless balls though. I have never felt threatened so far, and from what you are saying you haven't conceded either?

No I occasionally concede. But then the whole point of a split press system is to give you the best of both worlds. It's not the same as a full high press.

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3 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Not really, still leaves plenty of space behind it, if you move quickly into it. Leicester went aggressive at home to me and I was 2-1 down at half time, second half opened up the tempo, hit passes to space and crossed early; bypassing their press and not allowing them to get back in order meant hammered them 5-2 in the end since their high line was completely destabilised

Great, but I want  to see AI doing this to human controlled teams. 

I really think that the current ME is in good shape. AI's use of it though, not so good as far as I can see so far.

Edited by bleventozturk

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The balls over the top were certainly too much, but yes, a nice side effect was that I had to think about how deep to defend against a particular opponent rather than pushing up to the halfway line for an automatic win [which is how to win with the current ME, and most recent MEs]

The slow passes at the back is actually how rubbish teams would play against superior opponents if they were allowed to and the through ball and counter wasn't on, just like they waste time when the ball's out of play. I've seen teams as hopelessly mismatched as Andorra try that before. The real issue is that they're allowed to carry on doing this because players don't spontaneously press if rubbish opponents are playing keep ball for a while: it's all down to the pressing instructions they've been set with.

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3 minutes ago, bleventozturk said:

Great, but I want  to see AI doing this to human controlled teams. 

I really think that the current ME is in good shape. AI's use of it though, not so good as far as I can see so far.

The better teams do. I had a torrid game away to Man City (no idea how I fluked the win) who stopped me from playing out the back, but swept up everything I did. It was great

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Ran a test save for two seasons playing as Man Utd using a 4141 on balanced mentality, left the assistant manager in charge and went on holiday. Didn't touch the training etc, just picked my preferred starting 11 and bench and ran it for a season, collected the data and ran for another season before getting that data and collecting them both together. 


Assist locations:


Inside the box = 12
Central position outside the box = 14
Left wing = 13
Right wing =  9

Goal locations:


Inside the box = 21
Central position outside the box = 26 
Left wing =  5
Right wing = 4

 

The above data is from 38 Premier League games only so no European games or cup games included.  
 

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2 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

The balls over the top were certainly too much, but yes, a nice side effect was that I had to think about how deep to defend against a particular opponent rather than pushing up to the halfway line for an automatic win [which is how to win with the current ME, and most recent MEs]

The slow passes at the back is actually how rubbish teams would play against superior opponents if they were allowed to and the through ball and counter wasn't on, just like they waste time when the ball's out of play. I've seen teams as hopelessly mismatched as Andorra try that before. The real issue is that they're allowed to carry on doing this because players don't spontaneously press if rubbish opponents are playing keep ball for a while: it's all down to the pressing instructions they've been set with.

This. Increase the overall aggressiveness of defensive systems and you're onto a winner. Rubbish teams wont be able to ping about the back as much, but teams who don't defend well enough will actually end exposed more. Will create more space on the pitch if they can get it right, but will see them penned in by the good and really good teams

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3 minutes ago, craigcwwe said:

Goal locations:

Inside the box = 21
Central position outside the box = 26 

 

More goals from outside the box than inside, is a concern.

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4 minutes ago, bleventozturk said:

More goals from outside the box than inside, is a concern.

From a soak of a full league of the first premier league season I did today (380 matches):

Goals from outside the box - 12%.

Real life total is around 13%.

If you think there's an issue with there being too many long shot goals. Please provide as much info as you can in the relevant bugs forum, make sure to play a lot of matches and see if the trend continues for a long period of time. If so provide your save game, relevant PKMs and tactics so we can investigate. Thanks!

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54 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

There was a risk, of being done on the break, balls over the top. But people didn’t like it. So SI changed it.

Balls over the top were constant. All the time. Even when on ultra defensive tactics. There was issues with defenders not tracking the players correctly. This was for AI and human.  This is why it was changed. It was a bug. There is still balls over the top when you over commit players. Balls over the top when you choose a target man and pump long balls up. They’re just less effective... like they are in real life. 

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1 minute ago, Jack Joyce said:

From a soak of a full league of the first premier league season I did today (380 matches):

Goals from outside the box - 12%.

Real life total is around 13%.

If you think there's an issue with there being too many long shot goals. Please provide as much info as you can in the relevant bugs forum, make sure to play a lot of matches and see if the trend continues for a long period of time. If so provide your save game, relevant PKMs and tactics so we can investigate. Thanks!

If I see that in my game, I will. I was just commenting on the other guy's soak test result :thup:

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2 horas atrás, endtime disse:

Man Utd: 331 completed/373 attempted, Leicester: 564 completed/640 attempted. 460 of Leicester's passes were made by the GK + back 4 + DM. 

I think they have to adjust the manager A.I. Game style, cause it is quite rare a team start passing like Barcelona nowadays, so "small" clubs wont have this kind of behavior, and in the case they have, SI could adjust the counter style so A.I. Manager start pressing more high when they realize "small" clubs trying to playing from their defense using short passes and possession 

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In my 7th friendly game finally faced a team that did not go too defensive against me, and it was a great match. Created 2 1on1's, and scored both of them :cool:

This ME is a huge upgrade, a step in the right direction finally since FM 19. Well done SI, and thank you for working hard for the improvements. You have a very happy customer now :)

 

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41 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

From a soak of a full league of the first premier league season I did today (380 matches):

Goals from outside the box - 12%.

Real life total is around 13%.

If you think there's an issue with there being too many long shot goals. Please provide as much info as you can in the relevant bugs forum, make sure to play a lot of matches and see if the trend continues for a long period of time. If so provide your save game, relevant PKMs and tactics so we can investigate. Thanks!

Are you looking into the issue with teams employing defensive systems having too much possession?

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39 minutes ago, thiagoanjo said:

I think they have to adjust the manager A.I. Game style, cause it is quite rare a team start passing like Barcelona nowadays, so "small" clubs wont have this kind of behavior, and in the case they have, SI could adjust the counter style so A.I. Manager start pressing more high when they realize "small" clubs trying to playing from their defense using short passes and possession 

The AI presses high, the problem is that it's an FM-style press, i.e. only the player with the ball is closed down, while passing lanes remain open and there's always someone available for a pass. 

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I don't know if I'm alone but the update seems to have made the game far too easy.

I've been playing with Arsenal and am five seasons in. Each year I've been finishing somewhere between 3rd-6th although I got two Champions League wins in that time but they were very much outliers for my good but not great side. Maybe it would be better to say my side were pretty great on their day but there were usually teams consistently better than mine.

Since the update the game seems to have become much easier. I used have a goal difference that would be much lower than the teams around me but now it's soaring. In the first game after the update I was 5-1 at half time against a decent Everton side. I've now played about 30 games and am undefeated in all of them with about 25 of those being wins. If I'm not against another of the very top teams it is an easy win and I've found I can play a bunch of youth players in most games and still win.

Perhaps my tactics just concidentally work really well with the new patch but it's taken all the fun out of things.

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Off topic slightly but is the ME patch updated for the demo too? i'd love to have a look at it myself, thanks. 

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3 minutes ago, Elfking said:

I don't know if I'm alone but the update seems to have made the game far too easy.

I've been playing with Arsenal and am five seasons in. Each year I've been finishing somewhere between 3rd-6th although I got two Champions League wins in that time but they were very much outliers for my good but not great side. Maybe it would be better to say my side were pretty great on their day but there were usually teams consistently better than mine.

Since the update the game seems to have become much easier. I used have a goal difference that would be much lower than the teams around me but now it's soaring. In the first game after the update I was 5-1 at half time against a decent Everton side. I've now played about 30 games and am undefeated in all of them with about 25 of those being wins. If I'm not against another of the very top teams it is an easy win and I've found I can play a bunch of youth players in most games and still win.

Perhaps my tactics just concidentally work really well with the new patch but it's taken all the fun out of things.

I agree with you, and that's why I suggested SI to focus on the AI's use of the tactics for the final patch, if there will be one. On the other hand, I am sure majority of FM players will like the game this way better. People like to win, and most see the deficiencies of the ME only when they loose. 

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1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

This. Increase the overall aggressiveness of defensive systems and you're onto a winner. Rubbish teams wont be able to ping about the back as much, but teams who don't defend well enough will actually end exposed more. Will create more space on the pitch if they can get it right, but will see them penned in by the good and really good teams

Connected to this: There's the misconception that the more cautious mentalities would be per se Possession based, and that the mentalities would be the sole root cause of things as such. They are not. Basically, the cautious mentality coupled with the more direct passing instructions for defenders on cautious mentalities translates to: "Play it cautious, but by all means clear under pressure". If that pressure isn't on...

Edited by Svenc

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24 minutes ago, BigV said:

Off topic slightly but is the ME patch updated for the demo too? i'd love to have a look at it myself, thanks. 

Don't believe it's been updated yet with the new ME no. It usually takes a few days after the PC version gets the latest update for the demo to get it.

Edited by craigcwwe

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29 minutes ago, Elfking said:

I don't know if I'm alone but the update seems to have made the game far too easy.

I've been playing with Arsenal and am five seasons in. Each year I've been finishing somewhere between 3rd-6th although I got two Champions League wins in that time but they were very much outliers for my good but not great side. Maybe it would be better to say my side were pretty great on their day but there were usually teams consistently better than mine.

Since the update the game seems to have become much easier. I used have a goal difference that would be much lower than the teams around me but now it's soaring. In the first game after the update I was 5-1 at half time against a decent Everton side. I've now played about 30 games and am undefeated in all of them with about 25 of those being wins. If I'm not against another of the very top teams it is an easy win and I've found I can play a bunch of youth players in most games and still win.

Perhaps my tactics just concidentally work really well with the new patch but it's taken all the fun out of things.

I’m noticing this too. Which is a real shame. I’ve said a few times that we needed to be careful for what we wished for.

The last ME was a challenge. Guess I’m going to have to change my tactics up again.

 

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When I reported the issue with defensive teams achieving high possession last month, I got this response:

We feel that once we improve our pressing systems, this should make defensive AI teams passing stats decrease.

So they're aware of it, and it seems it'll take some more time for them to improve pressing to an extent where it'll force teams to go long more frequently.

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