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Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread

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I am frustrated too with the game but there is something positive too 

1: Passing is very good, playing out of defence and combining. 

2: Pressing is wonderful to watch year, actually Pressing and Passing this year are Great 

3: I like throughballs this year too, Good Passing players this year are GOOD PASSING PLAYERS

And I understand the pain of OP

Problem is with strikers and super-human goalkeepers and I totally agree with point that Opposition only shot get past my goalkeeper easily and I am left chasing whole game, where opposition goalkeeper saves everything from 1vs1, Headers from 2m maybe to rebounds and even sometimes open goal. I just pray that hope i dont concede first because then there is 75% chance that i will get a draw 

When your striker keep missing everything than you start to question The game and Me. 

One more thing is frustrating that when you dominte the game and get a draw, in match commentry you read "XX Team cant believe that draw this game" 

And last thing, i have noticed that is this forum everything is YOUR FAULT, When the SI said that 1vs1 is a issue but my friend CFULLER is resufing to admit that, he is still saying that FAULT is your tactic

How can you say to your forward, Please take your chances? Or maybe pass vertically to second striker who is almost free to score a tap-in.

OP Problem is that he cant score with his lots of chances but opposition score with their, when is ME is supposed to be same for AI and The Player? 

Edited by sverige91
Forget the question mark at the end

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2 minutes ago, sverige91 said:

I am frustrated too with the game but there is something positive too 

1: Passing is very good, playing out of defence and combining. 

2: Pressing is wonderful to watch year, actually Pressing and Passing this year are Great 

3: I like throughballs this year too, Good Passing players this year are GOOD PASSING PLAYERS

And I understand the pain of OP

Problem is with strikers and super-human goalkeepers and I totally agree with point that Opposition only shot get past my goalkeeper easily and I am left chasing whole game, where opposition goalkeeper saves everything from 1vs1, Headers from 2m maybe to rebounds and even sometimes open goal. I just pray that hope i dont concede first because then there is 75% chance that i will get a draw 

When your striker keep missing everything than you start to question The game and Me. 

One more thing is frustrating that when you dominte the game and get a draw, in match commentry you read "XX Team cant believe that draw this game" 

And last thing, i have noticed that is this forum everything is YOUR FAULT, When the SI said that 1vs1 is a issue but my friend CFULLER is resufing to admit that, he is still saying that FAULT is your tactic

How can you say to your forward, Please take your chances? Or maybe pass vertically to second striker who is almost free to score a tap-in.

OP Problem is that he cant score with his lots of chances but opposition score with their, when is ME is same for AI and The Player 

Which is why @CFuller is suggesting OP shouldn't blame the game.... if the AI is scoring fine, then the user should be able to aswell.. it's that simple...

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1 hour ago, akkm said:

could u post the key passses map from that match

8VyH4dX.png

Those are my key passes for the match, 13 of them. (66=Trent, 32=Matip, 3=Fabinho, 14=Hendo, 15=Oxlade-Chamberlain, 11=Salah)

1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

@JordanMillward_1 worth starting a thread in the tactics section, certainly an interesting discussion to be had

Good point, I'm just heading to bed and I'm not back from work until about 7pm tomorrow (it's fun having to travel 2 hours to London each way :rolleyes:), but I'll set a post up there tomorrow, and with that the discussion about the tactic ends. Once I get around to making that post, I can always link it.

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As I said a few posts back I haven't touched the game now for about 2 weeks. When the beta dropped I tried it for nearly half a season before I came to the conclusion that it was as bad in it's own way as the retail ME. Before the beta dropped I hadn't played the game in over a month due to the ME. I seriously doubt I will play the game again, which I hate, but there you go.

When you say @Welshace that the AI is doing it so the user should as well I agree with you, we should. However, I would love to see anyone who has had any remote success with a counter or defensive tactic in FM20. It is obvious from @andysafc screenshots that the AI would have been using one of those 2 mentalities. But I have been totally unable to get either of them working correctly, I would get absolutely battered. I have yet to also see any uploaded tactics using either mentality. Yet to see any youtube videos/twitch streams etc using them. Even the 'tactical masterminds' have stayed clear of them. Years ago I remember Cleon doing multiple threads, excellent write ups, on using defensive mentalities and how he would still win games in a positive fashion. You just can't do that anymore - yet the AI seem to be able to.

So to me, going back to the OP point, we have to play the way the game wants us to play. This is the reason I have stopped playing - imo it just isn't a simulation anymore if you are forced to do this. It becomes almost a scripted game in so much as you have to play a certain way to win. Don't get me wrong, when I was playing the game I won plenty, but I couldn't do it the way I wanted to do it.

Edited by davehanson

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3 minutes ago, Welshace said:

Which is why @CFuller is suggesting OP shouldn't blame the game.... if the AI is scoring fine, then the user should be able to aswell.. it's that simple...

But the question is why dont they do it when ME is suppose to be same? Why dont his strike score? When the striker is 1vs1 goalkeeper, i dont think that any tactic matter because strikers job is to score goals, we dont specify how strike should shoot, OP tactic should not matter when is one vs ONE. I THINK the skill of The striker or goalkeeper should deteminate the outcome, dont you think that? 

Getting dominated and losing doesnt hurt FM Player but dominating and drawing or losing is very frustrating because player keeps missing 

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4 minutes ago, davehanson said:

As I said a few posts back I haven't touched the game now for about 2 weeks. When the beta dropped I tried it for nearly half a season before I came to the conclusion that it was as bad in it's own way as the retail ME. Before the beta dropped I hadn't played the game in over a month due to the ME. I seriously doubt I will play the game again, which I hate, but there you go.

When you say @Welshace that the AI is doing it so the user should as well I agree with you, we should. However, I would love to see anyone who has had any remote success with a counter or defensive tactic in FM20. It is obvious from @andysafc screenshots that the AI would have been using one of those 2 mentalities. But I have been totally unable to get either of them working correctly, I would get absolutely battered. I have yet to also see any uploaded tactics using either mentality. Yet to see any youtube videos/twitch streams etc using them. Even the 'tactical masterminds' have stayed clear of them. Years ago I remember Cleon doing multiple threads, excellent write ups, on using defensive mentalities and how he would still win games in a positive fashion. You just can't do that anymore - yet the AI seem to be able to.

So to me, going back to the OP point, we have to play the way the game wants us to play. This is the reason I have stopped playing - imo it just isn't a simulation anymore if you are forced to do this. It becomes almost a scripted game in so much as you have to play a certain way to win. Don't get me wrong, when I was playing the game I won plenty, but I couldn't do it the way I wanted to do it.

Aggressive attacking pressing tactics are far too powerful now. Sitting back and hitting teams on the counter just doesn't work like it used to.

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2 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

8VyH4dX.png

Those are my key passes for the match, 13 of them. (66=Trent, 32=Matip, 3=Fabinho, 14=Hendo, 15=Oxlade-Chamberlain, 11=Salah)

Good point, I'm just heading to bed and I'm not back from work until about 7pm tomorrow (it's fun having to travel 2 hours to London each way :rolleyes:), but I'll set a post up there tomorrow.

thanks for that...thats really what you see trend wise within FM match engine...play is unfortunately directed towards the wings from the centre or from the outside along the wings and rarely good play otherwise. Of course it's difficult to go through the middle in the real world but that key passes tab essentially highlights the deficiencies of the engine as the simulation of good pass decision making and complementary movement isn't done to allow consistent attempts to play a certain way and that way is with proper creativity guile and vision and good pass selection to enable quality and even sometimes basic pass choice. there's currently too much rudimentary pass choices being executed to rely too much on passes directed out wide for something to happen from that

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Playing in Slovenia now and it seems like the mid-season break is also treated as a "passive" season change.
It's only when players come back from mid-season holiday, in January, i can set Code of Conduct.
I also receive a Mid-season break fitness report AND a Pre-season fitness report.

Anyone else playing in the Slovenian top division and experiencing the same?

Edited by roykela

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8 minutes ago, roykela said:

Playing in Slovenia now and it seems like the mid-season break is also treated as a passive season change.
It's only when players come back from mid-season holiday, in January, i can set Code of Conduct.
I also receive a Mid-season break fitness report AND a Pre-season fitness report.

Anyone else playing in the Slovenian top division and experiencing the same?

Same in Serbian Superleague, also, can't choose when does the pre-season start in summer ever, and the problem is that default start is around 3rd/4th of july, and the first competitive game is 2 weeks later.

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13 minutes ago, vukigepard said:

Same in Serbian Superleague, also, can't choose when does the pre-season start in summer ever, and the problem is that default start is around 3rd/4th of july, and the first competitive game is 2 weeks later.

When you mention it, that is the same in Slovenia. Couldn't set the pre-season start.
Can't remember when my pre-season started though but looking at my fixtures i would guess it was a bit late.
Was in the 2nd tier and got promoted. Last round was May 28th. First friendly the following season was July 6th.
Final round of the current season in the top division will be May 19th.
No idea if there were any Euro Cup or World Cup affecting it.

Maybe it's just too short in between so it's hard coded. I would've liked the option to choose between 3 or 4 weeks though. Or even 5 weeks if possible.

I get the impression it is wrong in the game but i wouldn't know. No idea how it works in real life in Slovenia/Serbia.

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5 hours ago, andysafc said:

Tactic.thumb.png.3d454e9607a457ed39dfa31725000cc3.png

 

My own tactic is normally based off this, or i may push the wide players up to the AML/AMR and central the striker. I think Sunderland has a good squad to suit these positions.

That's a pretty weird formation, no wonder you're not scoring.

whose marking ? 

Most formations have at least two central midfielders  and one att or def mids your central mids need to pick these up, defenders pick up the  one or two attackers and your full back/wing backs either pick up wide attackers or do not mark.

your front 3 or front 4 do not mark .

In previous iterations FM18 and 19. 4-3-3- narrow was probably the best to use but I think wth this one I tend to use 4-2-3-1 wide 4-1-2-3 dm wide 4-1-4-1 dm (with 4 aross mid 1 att 1 dm)

This formation is a lot stronger defensively and good attacking.

these were not the same game but same formation.

 

Football Manager 2020 31_01_2020 01_05_05.png

Football Manager 2020 22_01_2020 09_57_19_LI.jpg

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1 hour ago, davehanson said:

As I said a few posts back I haven't touched the game now for about 2 weeks. When the beta dropped I tried it for nearly half a season before I came to the conclusion that it was as bad in it's own way as the retail ME. Before the beta dropped I hadn't played the game in over a month due to the ME. I seriously doubt I will play the game again, which I hate, but there you go.

When you say @Welshace that the AI is doing it so the user should as well I agree with you, we should. However, I would love to see anyone who has had any remote success with a counter or defensive tactic in FM20. It is obvious from @andysafc screenshots that the AI would have been using one of those 2 mentalities. But I have been totally unable to get either of them working correctly, I would get absolutely battered. I have yet to also see any uploaded tactics using either mentality. Yet to see any youtube videos/twitch streams etc using them. Even the 'tactical masterminds' have stayed clear of them. Years ago I remember Cleon doing multiple threads, excellent write ups, on using defensive mentalities and how he would still win games in a positive fashion. You just can't do that anymore - yet the AI seem to be able to.

So to me, going back to the OP point, we have to play the way the game wants us to play. This is the reason I have stopped playing - imo it just isn't a simulation anymore if you are forced to do this. It becomes almost a scripted game in so much as you have to play a certain way to win. Don't get me wrong, when I was playing the game I won plenty, but I couldn't do it the way I wanted to do it.

 

9 minutes ago, Hazpro said:

That's a pretty weird formation, no wonder you're not scoring.

whose marking ? 

Most formations have at least two central midfielders  and one att or def mids your central mids need to pick these up, defenders pick up the  one or two attackers and your full back/wing backs either pick up wide attackers or do not mark.

your front 3 or front 4 do not mark .

In previous iterations FM18 and 19. 4-3-3- narrow was probably the best to use but I think wth this one I tend to use 4-2-3-1 wide 4-1-2-3 dm wide 4-1-4-1 dm (with 4 aross mid 1 att 1 dm)

This formation is a lot stronger defensively and good attacking.

these were not the same game but same formation.

 

Football Manager 2020 31_01_2020 01_05_05.png

Football Manager 2020 22_01_2020 09_57_19_LI.jpg

If you care to check the in possession tactics I think you will find yourself wrong. I know I only scored 4 but hey!

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7 hours ago, andysafc said:

Tactic.thumb.png.3d454e9607a457ed39dfa31725000cc3.png

 

My own tactic is normally based off this, or i may push the wide players up to the AML/AMR and central the striker. I think Sunderland has a good squad to suit these positions.

@andysafc there is known issue with the ME that players cutting in from the wings don't cross/pass the ball as you would expect them when there are other players who could tap in. Instead, they shoot from bad tight angles (hence, large number of shots/shots on target). 

I play 4-3-1-2 tactic and I noticed that if I put a right footed striker on the left side his goal conversion is way lower (mostly shoots into GK's hands) than if he is playing on the right side.  It might be a player's trait but it happened with so many strikers that I decied to place a right footed attacker on the right and a left footed attacker on the left.

I believe McNulty is a right footed player (?). Try to place him on the right side and change your other players' positions/roles accordingly. See if that improves your conversion rates.
I attached a copy of a game I played just now. I am Alessandria btw.

This is my 9th season in the game. I played 4-3-3 in the first four seasons than converted to 4-3-1-2.

Capture.PNG

Edited by fm_08/09

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8 hours ago, likesiamesefish said:

Traditionally FM is always a bit dodgy on release (or at least the ME). There is always a final patch after the January transfer window which tends to sort any issues out completely. There have definitely been times in the past where the ME has been terrible on release and they've had to patch it heavily and for a while I'd only buy the game after it went on sale around Christmas. I've been playing FM20 since beta release day on the same save and not had so many problems (at least since they patched wingers shooting from impossible angles) but seems there has been a lot of discontent within the community.

Thanks. Clear!

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6 hours ago, Hazpro said:

 

If you care to check the in possession tactics I think you will find yourself wrong. I know I only scored 4 but hey!

Not sure where I mentioned anything at all about possession?? I think it isnt me who is wrong.

My whole post was on using defensive or counter menatalities. You post using an Attacking mentality, not sure what you are trying to prove?

Edited by davehanson

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5 hours ago, Hazpro said:

Football Manager 2020 31_01_2020 01_05_05.png

That formation and instructions is not far from what i have used. I prefer to start with a 4-4-2 or something close to it. But then i would change to one striker and use a DM because i think to play 2 strikers both home and away is rare nowadays. Us supporters can be critical of how Managers manager for example.... Sunderland for several seasons play with a lone striker and the fans are critical of this especially at home to teams like Gillingham. However i have not tried a Regista in my own system and i have never used a CF. But thinking about it... a CF makes sense when using a lone striker, problem is Sunderland do not have a CF. 

 

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Possession

Is it me or does possession seem random in the Public Beta ME despite quality of player and a playing style that puts emphasis on possession? My team plays more passes than the opposition yet has less possession. Very disappointing and takes away the realism if this is working as intended.

 

FM 20 Public Beta Match Engine

I feel that in the current Public Beta ME the game is slowly moving to where it should be. However, this current beta version is where the game should have been when released almost 3 months ago. There are some postives but also some negatives. Even in the beta version attributes of a player doesn't seem to matter. A player with a pace/acceleration of 11 can dribble and sprint past a player with a pace/acceleration of 18. Central passing play is at best extremely limited compared to FM17 ME. GK would ignore passing to defenders and just hit long and wide - it was the same in FM19. Variety of crossing is also limited - my team/player instruction to play low crosses is ignored in the ME. Players run off the pitch and leave the ball for the opposing players to say "Thank you. Bye" as they take the ball. Like I said there are some positives in that I can see my formation taking shape on the pitch, slightly better 1-1 and penalty conversion rates. Most importantly the long ball over the top has been significantly reduced which is massive positive.

 

Overall, the current Beta version is step forward compared to the previous FM20 MEs. However, the FM20 ME experience has taken all the enjoyment away and definitely one of the worst in the series (Maybe FM13/14 takes that crown but boy is FM20 close). With the exception of rules (VAR etc.), why does the Match Engine need to be "updated" yearly to meet a release date it cannot meet? Why can't the Match Engine be updated every 2 years for improvements? Easily could create a video diary for how the development of Match Engine is going - Tactics and Player Roles would also need to be updated every 2 years. New features can be added and the other features: Database, Club Vision, Training, Development Centre, bugs, etc is still updated yearly and is what is bought by us (customers) in the next version of FM. Just a thought.

Edited by lloyd1990

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I think my headline... Is this the worst ever ME? is wrong. I think the ME plays in a certain way and when you try to play using your own theories then the ME may look bad. As @Hasbro pointed out... we have to play the game the way IT wants us to play. 

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14 minutes ago, andysafc said:

I think my headline... Is this the worst ever ME? is wrong. I think the ME plays in a certain way and when you try to play using your own theories then the ME may look bad. As @Hasbro pointed out... we have to play the game the way IT wants us to play. 

I think at the end of the day most people know what they want and how they want their football to look, its just a case of understanding what the team instructions, roles and duties and mentality do as a group. It can be challenging.  That big team instruction mentality is a really big issue. Cos one can play a possession centric game on any mentality, and one can even play direct transition football on lower mentalities. The game just has so many moving parts that it can be right royal pain for people. It takes time but it's very possible. I've said this many times before, we just need to understand how SI has translated the game of football. Its their language we need to come to terms with. Imposing our assumptions won't help. Understanding theirs will certainly make the game a lot easier.

Roles and duties have been completely reworked for FM20. What started in 19 has almost come full circle in 20. To make a good tactic one needs to understand how roles/duties, mentality, team instructions and even player traits affect the system. And that combination is the one people need to understand. And that's how the devs have designed the game. And for those who find it a challenge, there are always going to be people who will try and help those who find that a tough nut to crack in Training and Tactics.

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7 часов назад, roykela сказал:

Playing in Slovenia now and it seems like the mid-season break is also treated as a "passive" season change.
It's only when players come back from mid-season holiday, in January, i can set Code of Conduct.
I also receive a Mid-season break fitness report AND a Pre-season fitness report.

Anyone else playing in the Slovenian top division and experiencing the same?

The same in Russia and in 3Bundesliga. Looks like this is happens for all leagues where are exist a winter pause. I have no problems there are. Do you?
Its better than my team stopped to play and NOT moved on holiday and next 3 months we trained only (injures injures injures). Or my italian team finished season in may, but moved for holiday just in 20 of June (and this happened in fm19 too)

Edited by Novem9

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6 часов назад, roykela сказал:

Maybe it's just too short in between so it's hard coded. I would've liked the option to choose between 3 or 4 weeks though. Or even 5 weeks if possible.

You need to know that it works different for countries with a winter pause :) For example we have about 10 weeks of winter holiday in Russia (mid-December until March) and just 3-4 weeks in summer. So in winter pause our clubs have a real pre-season training and in summer its just like a pause in fact. Almost sure that Serbia and Slovenia have the same schedules. We just have no chance for long summer pre-season 

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test.thumb.png.3f5f9c82a5566422dbb4c04092e91220.pngtest2.thumb.png.0453b9cdd63eeadaad396de73205c207.png

 

Using @Hasbro advice, here is an example of my concerns with the ME. In this example the score does not matter (you can't judge a tactic on one performance).

My two best performers in that game were LEADBITTER and GRIGG. Leadbitter was deployed as a RIGISTA and Grigg as a CF. Neither player is really suitable for those roles so if i was making that tactic i would look at that and say no that is not suitable for my players. Then the ME shows different and they preform fairly  good in those roles, better than players playing in their natural roles. See the confusion?

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6 minutes ago, andysafc said:

test.thumb.png.3f5f9c82a5566422dbb4c04092e91220.pngtest2.thumb.png.0453b9cdd63eeadaad396de73205c207.png

 

Using @Hasbro advice, here is an example of my concerns with the ME. In this example the score does not matter (you can't judge a tactic on one performance).

My two best performers in that game were LEADBITTER and GRIGG. Leadbitter was deployed as a RIGISTA and Grigg as a CF. Neither player is really suitable for those roles so if i was making that tactic i would look at that and say no that is not suitable for my players. Then the ME shows different and they preform fairly  good in those roles, better than players playing in their natural roles. See the confusion?

Managers squeeze players into a preferred formation/tactic/roles all the time in reality though. And players change throughout their careers. Bale was a LB when a kid!

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1 minute ago, sidslayer said:

Managers squeeze players into a preferred formation/tactic/roles all the time in reality though. And players change throughout their careers. Bale was a LB when a kid!

yes i agree, but isn't the game telling us with the light system that it SHOULD not be effective? IMO to make that tactic work you should use players more suited to those roles. But there performance in that particular match says i am wrong.

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role.thumb.png.8fb01e14429cc339f0510c887aca1a32.png

 

In this example the game is telling me it should NOT work, in the match it is telling me it works.

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I saw a Rabona pass yesterday for the first time ever from my IF in the corner of the area, that was beatiful to experiment... Any other lucky ones?? I wonder what does it take to make that pass... Flair + Technique??

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13 hours ago, GOODNAME said:

And one more thing

Even that i dont think this is the worst ME ever , im sick wating to January to get decent ME
 

in FM 21 i will not pre order the game like usual for 10000 % 

Defo agree with this... I've been playing this since CM 1.... The last few years have all been utter frustration until Jan/Feb when they finally sort out the ME.... What I don't understand is that each year is just a database update and something stuck on, like different training or a development option blah blah... So why does the match engine go back to zero...? If you have FINALLY sorted out a decent ME.... why bugger it all up EVERY YEAR and take 4 months after release to sort it out? I haven't completed a 'proper save'... 4 seasons or more, because every time I get going there's another patch to the ME and it breaks your tactic.... I can't load/save as it destroys the whole point... For gods sake sort out a final ME and keep it.... with MINOR tweaks for new stuff like VAR etc.... rant over

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3 minutes ago, SaxonHuscarl said:

Defo agree with this... I've been playing this since CM 1.... The last few years have all been utter frustration until Jan/Feb when they finally sort out the ME.... What I don't understand is that each year is just a database update and something stuck on, like different training or a development option blah blah... So why does the match engine go back to zero...? If you have FINALLY sorted out a decent ME.... why bugger it all up EVERY YEAR and take 4 months after release to sort it out? I haven't completed a 'proper save'... 4 seasons or more, because every time I get going there's another patch to the ME and it breaks your tactic.... I can't load/save as it destroys the whole point... For gods sake sort out a final ME and keep it.... with MINOR tweaks for new stuff like VAR etc.... rant over

The great unanswered question. There are so many bugs and problems with the game outside the match engine, hardly any of them have been fixed. It seems so much dev time goes towards fixing the match engine with every release that the rest of the game gets neglected. Why is the match engine in such a poor state at release? Why isn't it the same match engine as the final patch of the previous version that's already had months of fixes? It's bizarre.

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this has been my feeling for a long time. They have been making this game for over 25 years... should they need to keep changing the ME? Can they not settle on one ME and then mainly update the database?

They have done this several times where they have taken several patches to get the ME right and then next release is bugged to hell and needs several patches, each release rinse and repeat. I started in FM 20 really good then as @SaonHuscarl says you have to completely scrap it and start again. Complete waste of time, but to do it year in year out. 

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9 minutes ago, andysafc said:

this has been my feeling for a long time. They have been making this game for over 25 years... should they need to keep changing the ME? Can they not settle on one ME and then mainly update the database?

They have done this several times where they have taken several patches to get the ME right and then next release is bugged to hell and needs several patches, each release rinse and repeat. I started in FM 20 really good then as @SaonHuscarl says you have to completely scrap it and start again. Complete waste of time, but to do it year in year out. 

I do feel there is a certain arrogance about the fact that there is no rival game, they know there's enough people that love football... They know we are going to buy the game... I admit over the last 3 years i've refused to buy it...Then buy it anyway so i'm exactly the sort of mug i'm describing.... lol!... I didn't buy 19 until September.... a couple of months before 20..... doh.... Anyway.... I don't care if it's just a data update, introduce all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff.... Just sort the bloody ME out and don't make transfers unrealistic... that's the heart and brain of the game. Tactics... that are reflected in the ME and building/training a team to play in them.... Everything else is decoration.

Edited by SaxonHuscarl

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16 hours ago, WilltheWolf92 said:

FM15 is my favourite FM engine

Funny that as I've given up on FM20 for the time being and gone back to one of my most enjoyable long term saves on 15. If you accept it's a more limited game all round and there are some foibles in terms of the ME then I've found that version is a much more pleasant experience than the current edition(s). As I say it might be on a more basic level, but at least the game feels sympathetic to what you want to do and you can play different styles of football. Actual possession football and patient recycling of the ball is also far far superior.

 

It's just nice not seeing the ball constantly switched to the flank because your central midfield player sees your wide man in 7 millimetres of space, and for said wide man to then just run and smash it or even worse pick out some random backwards diagonal to the opposite fullback, or just generally every other pass being an attempted killer ball, as you get on 20.

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Damn, is it still that bad?

The lack of a competitor really has made them release lacklustre products for a few years now.

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Agree with the sentiments in the last few posts.  Compounding the problem - they released the beta with a new ME - and we had the 1 on 1's issue which was very, very obvious after even a handful of matches.  Ignoring the fact that this shouldn't have got through alpha testing, we then had a very short turnaround time for the ME team to get out a patch for the official release.  That rather rushed patch then gave us further problems.  They've had a go at fixing with this beta - but via Miles on Twitter, we know it's not going to be released as an official patch - but we don't know what's happening outside of they are presumably not happy with the ME and are working on it.  My last job was with with a customer service focussed company - and they demanded us as employees to be very up front and honest with customers about problems - but always with a positive message about what we were doing to fix the problem.  I think that kind of focus would be very well received from most of the community.

I do think they needed to change the FM19 ME though - I mean it was OK, but blocked crosses and most of your goals coming from wide/crosses didn't make it great.

But certainly given the very short life cycle of the product - release in November and SI will stop working on it outside of major crash issues in March - here we are on 31 January still waiting...

Not sure on the answer - but for me the focus of FM21 should be the ME - get it right on release, and then don't make any major changes (which will have domino effects) for FM22/23.  Outside of the ME, FM20 is really good, so I would be willing to buy a product that isn't that different outside of the ME - but after pre-ordering FM20 on faith, I have to admit I won't do that again and I might wait until the final March patch before buying it.

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17 minutes ago, duesouth said:

Agree with the sentiments in the last few posts.  Compounding the problem - they released the beta with a new ME - and we had the 1 on 1's issue which was very, very obvious after even a handful of matches.  Ignoring the fact that this shouldn't have got through alpha testing, we then had a very short turnaround time for the ME team to get out a patch for the official release.  That rather rushed patch then gave us further problems.  They've had a go at fixing with this beta - but via Miles on Twitter, we know it's not going to be released as an official patch - but we don't know what's happening outside of they are presumably not happy with the ME and are working on it.  My last job was with with a customer service focussed company - and they demanded us as employees to be very up front and honest with customers about problems - but always with a positive message about what we were doing to fix the problem.  I think that kind of focus would be very well received from most of the community.

I do think they needed to change the FM19 ME though - I mean it was OK, but blocked crosses and most of your goals coming from wide/crosses didn't make it great.

But certainly given the very short life cycle of the product - release in November and SI will stop working on it outside of major crash issues in March - here we are on 31 January still waiting...

Not sure on the answer - but for me the focus of FM21 should be the ME - get it right on release, and then don't make any major changes (which will have domino effects) for FM22/23.  Outside of the ME, FM20 is really good, so I would be willing to buy a product that isn't that different outside of the ME - but after pre-ordering FM20 on faith, I have to admit I won't do that again and I might wait until the final March patch before buying it.

Yes, totally agree with what you say, but the added frustration is that for any football fan you really want to start playing FM when the season starts.... it's already 2-3 months post season start.... and that's frustrating enough...to buy it and start playing in March is even worse.....Although that's what actually happens because the game is flawed until then anyway ....Ha... Here's an idea.... maybe if they rewound their calendar to keep it in line with most major league season starts Spain/Germany/France/England/Italy etc .... And before anyone says 'yeah, but what about transfers etc, they take ages to update'.... I insert a file into the EDT folder from this website every time I start a game.... They are the terminators of up to date transfers... less than a day to be up to date.... Live Football Manager Transfer Update by Football Manager fans

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1 hour ago, andysafc said:

test.thumb.png.3f5f9c82a5566422dbb4c04092e91220.pngtest2.thumb.png.0453b9cdd63eeadaad396de73205c207.png

 

Using @Hasbro advice, here is an example of my concerns with the ME. In this example the score does not matter (you can't judge a tactic on one performance).

My two best performers in that game were LEADBITTER and GRIGG. Leadbitter was deployed as a RIGISTA and Grigg as a CF. Neither player is really suitable for those roles so if i was making that tactic i would look at that and say no that is not suitable for my players. Then the ME shows different and they preform fairly  good in those roles, better than players playing in their natural roles. See the confusion?

It comes as no surprise to me that you are struggling playing a tactic like that. You state that the only way to play the game is to play the ME and that you can't control what happens in a game unless you instruct the team to play in a prescribed way but what are your ideas for how you would like the team to play?

It's very difficult to decipher that based on your tactic that's filled with so many different instructions and contradictions. Trying to fix issues with it when it's going wrong would be a nightmare given that there are so many variables that would need to be taken into account.

As for why your two best performers were Leadbitter and Grigg. Well, they done the job you expected them to do and thus individually they performed well even if the team collectively was poor. Leadbitter provided the most key passes in the game which is his job as a Regista and Grigg scored which is his job as your only striker which is reflected in both of their ratings.

I think you are putting too much stock into the in-game advice which is rather surprising coming from a player who has played this series of games extensively over a number of years given that you should know that the in-game advice is poor at best.

You state that you have read a lot of guides and taken a lot of advice, well if that's the case, how did you come up with a tactic as unbalanced as this one? I think maybe you've become overloaded with information and are struggling to assimilate it into a coherent whole. I don't know why you have ignored @Welshace comment about keeping things simple and watching your games as I feel that is the key to making improvements. 

There are issues with the ME which have been repeated ad nauseam on this forum but what players aren't taking into account is that the AI will also suffer from the same issues given that the ME can't distinguish between the human player and the AI.

I think the reason why the cycle of ME development isn't in line with the release dates of the game is because they continue to make considerable changes to the ME all the way up to March. Therefore I think they can only really start to focus solely on the next version after the final patch which means that unlike other components of the game the ME doesn't get as much development time before release.  

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2 hours ago, Novem9 said:

The same in Russia and in 3Bundesliga. Looks like this is happens for all leagues where are exist a winter pause. I have no problems there are. Do you?
Its better than my team stopped to play and NOT moved on holiday and next 3 months we trained only (injures injures injures). Or my italian team finished season in may, but moved for holiday just in 20 of June (and this happened in fm19 too)

 

2 hours ago, Novem9 said:

You need to know that it works different for countries with a winter pause :) For example we have about 10 weeks of winter holiday in Russia (mid-December until March) and just 3-4 weeks in summer. So in winter pause our clubs have a real pre-season training and in summer its just like a pause in fact. Almost sure that Serbia and Slovenia have the same schedules. We just have no chance for long summer pre-season 


Holiday is fine. That's normal. But Code of Conduct half way through the season plus mid-season AND pre-season news, half way through the season, at the same time?
That doesn't sound normal to me. It's either mid-season or pre-season as a news item. Not both at the same time. And they're pretty much both the same so i don't need to news items
to tell me exactly the same thing.

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4 minutes ago, pheelf said:

It comes as no surprise to me that you are struggling playing a tactic like that. You state that the only way to play the game is to play the ME and that you can't control what happens in a game unless you instruct the team to play in a prescribed way but what are your ideas for how you would like the team to play?

It's very difficult to decipher that based on your tactic that's filled with so many different instructions and contradictions. Trying to fix issues with it when it's going wrong would be a nightmare given that there are so many variables that would need to be taken into account.

As for why your two best performers were Leadbitter and Grigg. Well, they done the job you expected them to do and thus individually they performed well even if the team collectively was poor. Leadbitter provided the most key passes in the game which is his job as a Regista and Grigg scored which is his job as your only striker which is reflected in both of their ratings.

I think you are putting too much stock into the in-game advice which is rather surprising coming from a player who has played this series of games extensively over a number of years given that you should know that the in-game advice is poor at best.

You state that you have read a lot of guides and taken a lot of advice, well if that's the case, how did you come up with a tactic as unbalanced as this one? I think maybe you've become overloaded with information and are struggling to assimilate it into a coherent whole. I don't know why you have ignored @Welshace comment about keeping things simple and watching your games as I feel that is the key to making improvements. 

There are issues with the ME which have been repeated ad nauseam on this forum but what players aren't taking into account is that the AI will also suffer from the same issues given that the ME can't distinguish between the human player and the AI.

I think the reason why the cycle of ME development isn't in line with the release dates of the game is because they continue to make considerable changes to the ME all the way up to March. Therefore I think they can only really start to focus solely on the next version after the final patch which means that unlike other components of the game the ME doesn't get as much development time before release.  

Yes, but the whole point we're making is why does the ME go back to zero every year?... a little tweak for any additions to the game like VAR etc then that's understandable, but football is football so why mess with something so drastically that gets fixed.... Every year

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6 minutes ago, pheelf said:

I think you are putting too much stock into the in-game advice which is rather surprising coming from a player who has played this series of games extensively over a number of years given that you should know that the in-game advice is poor at best.

I believe i have stated in the OP that i do not use the in game advice as i see it is flawed BUT i think it is WRONG and misleading to be giving the wrong advice. A game as complex as this would benefit from some good advice, as it is intended. It should not be a follow advice to win option but a follow advice to show what you are doing wrong would help... IMO

 

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1 hour ago, SaxonHuscarl said:

I've been playing this since CM 1.... The last few years have all been utter frustration until Jan/Feb when they finally sort out the ME.... What I don't understand is that each year is just a database update and something stuck on, like different training or a development option blah blah... So why does the match engine go back to zero...? If you have FINALLY sorted out a decent ME.... why bugger it all up EVERY YEAR and take 4 months after release to sort it out? I haven't completed a 'proper save'... 4 seasons or more, because every time I get going there's another patch to the ME and it breaks your tactic.... I can't load/save as it destroys the whole point... For gods sake sort out a final ME and keep it.... with MINOR tweaks for new stuff like VAR etc.... rant over

100% :thup:

Edited by Toonrock

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Nowhere near the worst, even at this stage before its final form.  

Anyone who thinks it is definitely hasn't gone through all of the previous iterations, some of which were literally unplayable, and some of which were completely broken and anti-fun.

I'm fine as long as I'm winning, and I am. I only have a few minor gripes with the current ME, although it's definitely not the best in recent years.

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6 minutes ago, SaxonHuscarl said:

Yes, but the whole point we're making is why does the ME go back to zero every year?... a little tweak for any additions to the game like VAR etc then that's understandable, but football is football so why mess with something so drastically that gets fixed.... Every year

Because they don't transplant the old ME from fm19 into fm20?  A new game bring about a lot of fundamental changes and improvements under the hood so essentially you ARE back at square one to balancing the new ME,  each has it's own quirks and issues to balance it and it will take time..

 

It's like asking why with each version of windows why is there still a load of updates to download instead of it just being the same as last year with a few tweaks..

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6 minutes ago, SaxonHuscarl said:

Yes, but the whole point we're making is why does the ME go back to zero every year?... a little tweak for any additions to the game like VAR etc then that's understandable, but football is football so why mess with something so drastically that gets fixed.... Every year

Why do they spend all that time fixing it then next full game release make it look as though they completely scrap it?

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1 minute ago, CaptainPlanet said:

I'm fine as long as I'm winning,

A lot of people aren't, myself included.

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Just now, Welshace said:

Because they don't transplant the old ME from fm19 into fm20?  A new game bring about a lot of fundamental changes and improvements under the hood so essentially you ARE back at square one to balancing the new ME,  each has it's own quirks and issues to balance it and it will take time..

 

It's like asking why with each version of windows why is there still a load of updates to download instead of it just being the same as last year with a few tweaks..

I think the game of football is a lot less complicated than Windows.... but I get your point

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1 minute ago, Tiger666 said:

A lot of people aren't, myself included.

The problem is I was.... and spent lots of bloody time to get thinks right, staff,training and most importantly the tactics.... 3/4 through the season almost unbeaten.... patch....broken.... arrrgghh... ha....

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Just now, SaxonHuscarl said:

I think the game of football is a lot less complicated than Windows.... but I get your point

Actually, it's a great comparison when you consider the complexity of the ME ... 

 

The problem here, is that yours and Andy's lack of knowledge on development cycles of software like this is showing... i appreciate your issue with it, but it's nowhere near as simple as you are claiming.

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Just now, andysafc said:

I believe i have stated in the OP that i do not use the in game advice as i see it is flawed BUT i think it is WRONG and misleading to be giving the wrong advice. A game as complex as this would benefit from some good advice, as it is intended. It should not be a follow advice to win option but a follow advice to show what you are doing wrong would help... IMO

I actually agree 100%, the advice should be better as it can be very misleading, I've been saying that for a long time but we have to work with what what's there plus there is a community in the tactic section who can help. The game isn't as complex as some would lead you to believe though. Understanding basic football concepts and being a decent man manager is usually enough to overachieve. When players get into difficulty I find it's usually a result of them over complicating things for no reason. In the tactic you posted, why do you need all those TIs?

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Just now, Tiger666 said:

A lot of people aren't, myself included.

There are methods and tactics that easily make the most of how this ME works, that I've used in teams from Bath City to Liverpool with high success.

If in doubt you can download one of several tactics from the tactics forum that do this.

They don't all make sense, it's not necessarily easy to come up with your own, you might end up with random players doing badly even if they're contributing to success. But it's definitely attainable to simply 'win' often from a tactical perspective (assuming your players are up to standard)

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