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Neil Brock

Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread

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5 minutes ago, Tiger666 said:

I've been patient for the two and a half months it's been since the game was released as a supposedly finished product. I've been patient while all the bug threads I've started have still not been fixed. I've been patient as I have no other choice but I still do not think this whole process is good enough. As this is the feedback thread, I feel it's the most appropriate place to put my feelings across. I'll leave it there.

Fine- I am sure that your views will be noted.

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48 minutes ago, luka_ said:

Does anyone except me thinks that player who is "natural" in AMR position should at the very least be acomplished in a MR position. To have a guy natural at AMR and not even awkward at MR..like nothing at MR, no spot at all...this to me is totally stupid and unrealistic and should be fixed for FM2021. 

I find this one particularly frustrating because, whenever  I’m playing a flat 442,  I find it very difficult to find natural MRs or MLs but there loads of players who are natural in the advanced role. I now ignore the circles and work on the principal that anybody who is a natural in one position can play perfectly well in any adjacent position.

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A complaint/suggestion on Club Vision.

 

At the moment we can choose to add or remove certain things from the vision, which is good, but we don't get the option of modifying either the importance or the degree of what's already there.

For example, my board at Spurs want me to get to the FA  Cup final (2 bars of importance) and don't care at all about the Carabao Cup. I'd like to change this so that my FA Cup goal is quarter finals (at same level of importance) and to give 1 bar of importance to doing well in the Carabao. But I can't do this in the negotiation phase since neither the importance nor the "distance" seem to be negotiable. I can add a Whole new requirement, or try to cut out one of the above, but I can't propose to change the requirements or importance Within existing goals.

This seems unnecessarily limiting.

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55 minutes ago, luka_ said:

Does anyone except me thinks that player who is "natural" in AMR position should at the very least be acomplished in a MR position. To have a guy natural at AMR and not even awkward at MR..like nothing at MR, no spot at all...this to me is totally stupid and unrealistic and should be fixed for FM2021. 

 

3 minutes ago, Hovis Dexter said:

I find this one particularly frustrating because, whenever  I’m playing a flat 442,  I find it very difficult to find natural MRs or MLs but there loads of players who are natural in the advanced role. I now ignore the circles and work on the principal that anybody who is a natural in one position can play perfectly well in any adjacent position.

Real life players will have had that set by Researchers, I'd report it in here...https://community.sigames.com/forum/708-database-and-research/

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It could purely be down to my tactics, playing gegenpress, attacking mentality, shorter passing,  play out of defence, counter press, counter and high line, but I am finding that no matter who I play, they have more possession than me but my shots far outweigh theirs.  As an example the last match I played the oppo had 56% possession but they had 0 shots on goal and I had 24.  Match before that, I had 39% possession but had 21 shots to their 8.  I won both games but it does seem odd my possession stats seem so low.

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19 minutes ago, JB22 said:

It could purely be down to my tactics, playing gegenpress, attacking mentality, shorter passing,  play out of defence, counter press, counter and high line, but I am finding that no matter who I play, they have more possession than me but my shots far outweigh theirs.  As an example the last match I played the oppo had 56% possession but they had 0 shots on goal and I had 24.  Match before that, I had 39% possession but had 21 shots to their 8.  I won both games but it does seem odd my possession stats seem so low.

The tactics section of the forum may be able to discuss this with you, but without knowing a bit more about your tactic, try dropping the mentality to positive, you should see more of the ball.

Edited by sidslayer

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I feel even the public Beta conversion rate is quite low, I got plenty of draws or 0-1 loses despite de facts that I am creating far more CCC and Set Pieces opportunities than my rivals. And not is not about tactics as am talking about 1vs1 in central plays or crosses from the wings...

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6 minutes ago, Sharkn20 said:

I feel even the public Beta conversion rate is quite low, I got plenty of draws or 0-1 loses despite de facts that I am creating far more CCC and Set Pieces opportunities than my rivals. And not is not about tactics as am talking about 1vs1 in central plays or crosses from the wings...

Agreed, especially compared to the opposition who seem to finish most chances

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12 minutes ago, Tangerine_Army said:

Agreed, especially compared to the opposition who seem to finish most chances

Just a reminder that there is absolutely no difference between AI and user in terms of how the game the sees it. Both are playing on exactly the same playing field in the same match engine with the same factors taken into account. 

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I agree with Neil , this is the worst misconception about this game, that it favors the AI.  Although it received massive improvements over the years, it still can't compete with a human player , in tactics, club management or squad building. I would love if for the future SI considers a very hard mode for hardcore FM fans, like me. :D

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3 hours ago, FrazT said:

To be frank, it has always been difficult to comprehend how this kind of situation can happen in the game and it has been reported before.

All that needs to be done is to have some positions linked. Such as, if you are training and playing a player at AMR position, he should also (maybe at a slightly slower rate) start picking up familiarity in the MR position. Not that hard of a concept really.

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3 hours ago, Kovacevic said:

At the moment we can choose to add or remove certain things from the vision, which is good, but we don't get the option of modifying either the importance or the degree of what's already there.

 

Well... I would find it weird if we could modify what the board deems important

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Before I start I would like to say that I get no enjoyment from slating the game, I have played this series for over 25 years and had many great times. I also accept that it may be my tactics but that is where the main issue stems from. 
With FM 20 I have broke records for most points, wins, clean sheets, unbeaten games etc etc but with this patch I am totally confused.

we have a help system that causes more confusion, ie we need to play shorter passing - 15 minutes later - we need to play more long balls. 
‘X’ player is getting too many chances if we do not close him down he will put one away - in the 70th minute when they have not had a shot on target? There are too many to mention but I am making the point that the help.... does not help.

my main gripe is the stats to results ratio. Our team get regularly over 20 shots

possession 55/60 - 45/40

every single stat is in our favour... except the score. It will be 1-1 or 0-1.

i am ok with the odd game but not as often as I see. IF, and maybe it is my tactic, but surely with those stats the oppositions tactics are worse. So how do they score with only 2 shots on target? 
I noticed a game against Lincoln today (we are Sunderland) they had 100% tackles won (24/24) surely that is completely unrealistic?

i know a lot of guys give good advice on how to make things work, and I have read lots of it but I always believed Football Manager was a game to play your way. This ME has become a game that must be played SI’s way. What I call.... play the SI way or hit the highway. I don’t want to see people leaving this series because they can no longer implement there own ideas.

as I said I have read lots of advice but I don’t always agree with it. I want to use my ideas and if it does not work I want the stats to show me it does not work. The stats are saying I am very unlucky while my opponents are very lucky. That is ok once in awhile but not as much as I am seeing. 

Edited by andysafc

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My last FM was FM18, I'm off the the wagon for good.

Been playing since early 90's but since I can't find any enjoyment in the latest releases there's no point  buying the game anymore. 

IMO the match engine gets worse every year since FM17.

Edited by Choccy18

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5 minutes ago, Choccy18 said:

My last FM was FM18, I'm off the the wagon for good.

Been playing since early 90's but since I can't find any enjoyment in the latest releases there's no point  buying the game anymore. 

That is sad. I was playing as Dulwich Hamlet and we got two straight promotions with no transfer budget at all. It exceeded my expectations by far, so i tired it with Cheltenham and Sunderland. Both teams had better players and a small budget to bring in a couple of players i though fitted the tactic well, but it completely failed and i have no idea why. The stats seemed to show we were doing right but the results did not.

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We shall see after the final build. Current ME is not good enough, I can tell you that much.

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I really hate the tackling options, i watched 2 of my players walk behind a opposing player who had the ball. They just kept following him. If you go 'Get Stuck In' you get far to many cards. No 'real' options. The SI way or the highway?

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No, it isn't. Just because teams dominate certain statistics doesn't mean they should win. You can hog possession as much as you like and pepper your opponent with dozens of shots, but the only statistic that ultimately matters is the final score.

Take the last two Manchester derbies at the Etihad. In December, City had 72% possession and 23 shots to United's 11. And just last night in the EFL Cup, City had 13 shots (4 on target) compared to just 6 (2) for United. Which team won both those games? United.

In fact, results that belie the statistics happen several times every week - at all levels of football. That's why I always say there's no such thing as being "FMed" (or "FIFAed", if you play that).

One or two of these results going against you could be down to luck... but if you're consistently 'dominating' matches and failing to win, you're maybe doing something wrong tactically. I'd suggest going to the tactics forum and posting up your system. Maybe you're being too aggressive and leaving your defence horribly exposed to counter-attacks? We can't know for sure unless you help us out here.

Don't blame the game for your own failures.

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5 minutes ago, CFuller said:

No, it isn't. Just because teams dominate certain statistics doesn't mean they should win. You can hog possession as much as you like and pepper your opponent with dozens of shots, but the only statistic that ultimately matters is the final score.

Take the last two Manchester derbies at the Etihad. In December, City had 72% possession and 23 shots to United's 11. And just last night in the EFL Cup, City had 13 shots (4 on target) compared to just 6 (2) for United. Which team won both those games? United.

In fact, results that belie the statistics happen several times every week - at all levels of football. That's why I always say there's no such thing as being "FMed" (or "FIFAed", if you play that).

One or two of these results going against you could be down to luck... but if you're consistently 'dominating' matches and failing to win, you're maybe doing something wrong tactically. I'd suggest going to the tactics forum and posting up your system. Maybe you're being too aggressive and leaving your defence horribly exposed to counter-attacks? We can't know for sure unless you help us out here.

Don't blame the game for your own failures.

So what is the in game help for? I understood it is there to help being who are struggling or doing something wrong. But it offers NOTHING that actually helps or advises where your going wrong.

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6 minutes ago, andysafc said:

So what is the in game help for? I understood it is there to help being who are struggling or doing something wrong. But it offers NOTHING that actually helps or advises where your going wrong.

It doesn't? Man, FM20 must have changed from FM18, because FM18 sure gives a LOT of help. 

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13 minutes ago, CFuller said:

but if you're consistently 'dominating' matches and failing to win, you're maybe doing something wrong tactically.

I disagree... if you are constantly dominating AND creating plenty of shots at goal there is more wrong with the game than your tactic. If you are creating very few chances something is wrong with your tactic. 

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The game help is legendarily known for being ignored (if you’re talking specifically about Ass Mangers bleating during a match)

Don’t see how this “feature” makes this the worst ME ever.

Tactics could be an issue for the games you’re seeing. As could morale and blooding new players. This last point I am very impressed with this year. Previous versions you could throw all and any new players into your team and carry on as though nothing had changed. Not this year. Which is realistic.

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10 minutes ago, andysafc said:

So what is the in game help for? I understood it is there to help being who are struggling or doing something wrong. But it offers NOTHING that actually helps or advises where your going wrong.

To be honest, FM has never been great at giving in-game tactical advice. In particular, assistant managers' advice should be taken with a pinch of salt. I'm sure a lot of newcomers (and even some more experienced players like myself) would appreciate more tactical advice in future FMs, so long as it doesn't get to the point where it feels like hand-holding.

1 minute ago, andysafc said:

I disagree... if you are constantly dominating AND creating plenty of shots at goal there is more wrong with the game than your tactic. If you are creating very few chances something is wrong with your tactic. 

Try saying that to Marco Silva and Chris Wilder.

Edited by CFuller

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2 minutes ago, PJHoutman88 said:

It doesn't? Man, FM20 must have changed from FM18, because FM18 sure gives a LOT of help. 

FM 20 adivses a lot, you could even set your Assistant Manager to automatically make the changes, except the changes make no real difference.

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6 minutes ago, CFuller said:

To be honest, FM has never been great at giving in-game tactical advice. In particular, assistant managers' advice should be taken with a pinch of salt. I'm sure a lot of newcomers (and even some more experienced players like myself) would appreciate more tactical advice in future FMs, so long as it doesn't get to the point where it feels like hand-holding.

Try saying that to Marco Silva and Chris Wilder.

You have the opinion that the failings are down to me, and nothing i say will change that. Maybe it is, but what i am saying is that the ME has a terrible way of showing it.

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1 minute ago, kandersson said:

FM 19 is the worst imo. 

No, i liked FM 19 once i got to grips with it. I like some parts of FM 20, just not the current ME.

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1 minute ago, andysafc said:

FM 20 adivses a lot, you could even set your Assistant Manager to automatically make the changes, except the changes make no real difference.

I don't want to sound condescending here or anything, especially because you said you've played the game for the past 25 years - but surely you must understand that 'assistant advice' isn't an 'instant win' button? The AI assistant, who might very well be flawed and I certainly always disregard because I actually disagree with the changes they want me to make, makes suggestions based on things that are going wrong statistically. If you're shooting a lot from distance and you're not ahead, it will suggest you 'work ball in the box' to make sure your shots are quality over quantity. However - and this is the important bit of advice: there may be nothing wrong with your shot quality and going 'work ball in the box' might actually reduce your shooting chances further than would be advisable. The whole point of the game is to analyse the tactic yourself and see where things go wrong. I treat 'assistant advice' more as a hint that something might be off, but I tend to have faith in the tactics I build and don't often tweak them in-game unless I personally see something that I might pick up on. 

As for the match stats: 

You might very well be 'dominating', but 'domination' has a lot of different meanings in football. You had 18 shots, those might have been from too far out - or it might have been headers that were poorly executed. It might have been free kicks that were relatively easy to deal with. I would suggest don't look at the shot count itself, look at the analysis screen and check where the shots came from. 

The stats you posted here don't show there's anything wrong with the match engine by themselves. In fact - only creating two clear cut chances suggests you didn't get many good shooting opportunities at all. It looks like Rochdale played with a DM, they probably dug in a little bit considering Sunderland are a big team. I'm not sure when in the match they scored, but looking at the amount of passes they attempted, they were more interested in ball circulation than actually getting forward and scoring. It looks more like you failed to break them down, which is very much a way real life matches can pan out. Especially at the lower leagues, your strikers might not be able to get the most out of the few chances they had.  

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It has never been a 'play your way', at all. All press, all attack, always. And this isn't any different.

The randomic part has been denounced, 'they' (Sigames? A few users?) replied A. Life is randomic, B. There are no cheats in the engine, everything is fair, C. Randomness is fun.

So you have to 'swallow and shut up', I presume. :D

Edited by Tetsuro P12

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25 minutes ago, andysafc said:

you're maybe doing something wrong tactically. I'd suggest going to the tactics forum and posting up your system.

Why? I do know lots of people will offer advice, but isn't that what i am saying? Play the SI way or not at all. Why can't we see that something is not working and getting other people to fix it is when we stop playing FM. it is no longer your game. 

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The OP may or may not actually have a Point.

He's obvioiusly never heard of counter attacking or generally defensive football too though, else the Argument couldn't be About shot Counts. The AI has an Edge over his already, as it isn't fussed About domianting the far too simple MOTD style stats the game has on offer an Inch (and shouldn't be)..


https://www.theringer.com/soccer/2018/6/27/17511596/2018-world-cup-germany-south-korea-mexico-sweden-elimination

Edited by Svenc

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2 minutes ago, andysafc said:

Why? I do know lots of people will offer advice, but isn't that what i am saying? Play the SI way or not at all. Why can't we see that something is not working and getting other people to fix it is when we stop playing FM. it is no longer your game. 

This has always been the case; SI build the match engine. There has to be, even at the most basic level, something that generates 'positive' results and something that generates 'negative' results. The match engine has been refined (and no, not always purely positively, in my opinion) and made more complex but there are a LOT of tactics and playing styles that are viable, as evidenced by the hundreds of different tactics that have been posted on the forums, all with pretty reasonable results.  
 

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I just had this beauty 

never saw this in the older match engine. using the new beta and noticing my affects new goals and smoothness.  & No I wasn't paid by SI to post this ! 

 

just an honest opinion.

Great goal he switched it to the right side and read the cross and kung fu kicked it 

 

Matt Ritchie ladies and gents ! take a bow son  

 

 

Edited by Gross_Ballon

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6 minutes ago, PJHoutman88 said:

I don't want to sound condescending here or anything, especially because you said you've played the game for the past 25 years - but surely you must understand that 'assistant advice' isn't an 'instant win' button? The AI assistant, who might very well be flawed and I certainly always disregard because I actually disagree with the changes they want me to make, makes suggestions based on things that are going wrong statistically. If you're shooting a lot from distance and you're not ahead, it will suggest you 'work ball in the box' to make sure your shots are quality over quantity. However - and this is the important bit of advice: there may be nothing wrong with your shot quality and going 'work ball in the box' might actually reduce your shooting chances further than would be advisable. The whole point of the game is to analyse the tactic yourself and see where things go wrong. I treat 'assistant advice' more as a hint that something might be off, but I tend to have faith in the tactics I build and don't often tweak them in-game unless I personally see something that I might pick up on. 

As for the match stats: 

You might very well be 'dominating', but 'domination' has a lot of different meanings in football. You had 18 shots, those might have been from too far out - or it might have been headers that were poorly executed. It might have been free kicks that were relatively easy to deal with. I would suggest don't look at the shot count itself, look at the analysis screen and check where the shots came from. 

The stats you posted here don't show there's anything wrong with the match engine by themselves. In fact - only creating two clear cut chances suggests you didn't get many good shooting opportunities at all. It looks like Rochdale played with a DM, they probably dug in a little bit considering Sunderland are a big team. I'm not sure when in the match they scored, but looking at the amount of passes they attempted, they were more interested in ball circulation than actually getting forward and scoring. It looks more like you failed to break them down, which is very much a way real life matches can pan out. Especially at the lower leagues, your strikers might not be able to get the most out of the few chances they had.  

I hit the crossbar once and the post twice and missed a penalty. Shots that hit the woodwork and a penalty miss do not count as shots on target therefore do not show you the frustration which i felt. 

I would never see the Assistant's advice as an instant win button, the game would become boring and i usually don't take much notice of what he says as i tried it previously and found it ineffective. 

I don't mind my tactic being wrong but when i am watching the game it does not tell me that. Believe me i have tried plenty of tactics that did not work and i was fine with that. But on this patch it is difficult to get anything to work especially when it LOOKS like you are constantly better than the opponents.

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The ME pre hotfix was an absolute mess and the worst for a long time. I'm enjoying it since the hotfix though. Players are playing how I have asked them to. I am seeing a variety of goals and the match stats seem fairly balanced. Hopefully the actual patch adds to what is already a good current ME. 

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6 minutes ago, Svenc said:

The OP may or may not actually have a Point.

He's obvioiusly never heard of counter attacking or generally defensive football too though, else the Argument couldn't be About shot Counts. The AI has an Edge over his already, as it isn't fussed About domianting the far too simple MOTD style stats the game has on offer an Inch (and shouldn't be)..


https://www.theringer.com/soccer/2018/6/27/17511596/2018-world-cup-germany-south-korea-mexico-sweden-elimination

With Sunderland in Division One i shouldn't be trying defensive football too much. I can understand that teams may play defensive against us but i just don't get the stats how they can do so little yet be so effective. these are teams like Lincoln and Rochdale. How can they create only 2 shots (my defence can not be so bad) and yet score one?

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17 minutes ago, PJHoutman88 said:

This has always been the case; SI build the match engine. There has to be, even at the most basic level, something that generates 'positive' results and something that generates 'negative' results. The match engine has been refined (and no, not always purely positively, in my opinion) and made more complex but there are a LOT of tactics and playing styles that are viable, as evidenced by the hundreds of different tactics that have been posted on the forums, all with pretty reasonable results.  
 

I know but that is not how i want to play. I download other people tactics and ideas and implement them into my own. Take Sympathyforthedevil tactic by Knap. This works well with Sunderland, but should it?

Sunderland do NOT have any Complete Wingbacks and as for a Seguendo Volante i doubt they have ever heard of that role let alone try to use it in the team. Which makes my point.... Play the SI way or not at all. Yes SI build the game BUT if it is based off real life tactics like that tactic SHOULD NOT work at this level.

Edited by andysafc

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13 minutes ago, andysafc said:

With Sunderland in Division One i shouldn't be trying defensive football too much. I can understand that teams may play defensive against us but i just don't get the stats how they can do so little yet be so effective. these are teams like Lincoln and Rochdale. How can they create only 2 shots (my defence can not be so bad) and yet score one?

I can only reply to the screenshot you posted in here, and honestly, those stats don't seem as unbalanced as you suggest. The only stat that's massively in your favour is shots on target, and those might (and considering the lack of CCC's probably were) from tight angles or distance, meaning the goalie has a relatively easy time dealing with them. Essentially, all I gather from this screenshot is; 'the opposition played defensively and it paid off.'

You can, btw, customise the stats to include woodwork, which is always something I do so I get a more accurate overview of the stats. 

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It's not the worst ever when you consider the early FM MEs, but in terms of marrying expectations, FM20 has been the worst in my view. Which is a shame, as the rest of the game I cannot find fault with.

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Untitled.thumb.png.b7339ba959b0504ec233690528e941ef.png

My current in game match...

every single stat is in my favour even if narrowly and yet they have a 93% tackle success. Now come on this is Oxford, Lincoln, Rochdale. Is there defence really that well organised? They score with every CCC... OMG you really think that is realistic?

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Anyone else seeing pretty much every penalty saved or missed? 

Had 7 pens in just over half a season and scored one. 

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Just now, craigcwwe said:

Anyone else seeing pretty much every penalty saved or missed? 

Had 7 pens in just over half a season and scored one. 

Nope. Pellegri has scored 8 in 10 so far this season. (The fact I’ve had 10 pens this season is more of an issue, but in fairness I had 2 the season before - goes that way sometimes).

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14 minutes ago, andysafc said:

Untitled.thumb.png.b7339ba959b0504ec233690528e941ef.png

My current in game match...

every single stat is in my favour even if narrowly and yet they have a 93% tackle success. Now come on this is Oxford, Lincoln, Rochdale. Is there defence really that well organised? They score with every CCC... OMG you really think that is realistic?

The stats are a guide. They’re not definitive of winning. A CCC is varied. Some are Uber CCC’s (open goal) others are 1v1’s (and we know about this ME’s wonky 1v1 issues)

The stats aren’t the be all and end all. If this is happening to you time and time again, try changing something. Like drop your CM to have two CDM’s and see what happens (for instance).

Also, your RB is having a shocker.

You do seem to have been very hard done by in this particular game mind. 

Edited by sidslayer

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13 minutes ago, craigcwwe said:

Anyone else seeing pretty much every penalty saved or missed? 

Had 7 pens in just over half a season and scored one. 

Nope. Penalty conversion and regularity seems spot on for me

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12 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

Nope. Pellegri has scored 8 in 10 so far this season. (The fact I’ve had 10 pens this season is more of an issue, but in fairness I had 2 the season before - goes that way sometimes).

 

Just now, diddydaddydoddy said:

Nope. Penalty conversion and regularity seems spot on for me

Interesting. Must just have a bad penalty taker then!

13 for penalty taking and 14 for composure fwiw

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Honestly i have tried everything, sometimes i see things that just don't work and i am ok with that. But generally i think when you are creating more than your opponent you are on the right track. I have been through the tactics forum and tried to implement as many tips. On  previous patches i generally felt when it was not working i had an idea why. But not on this patch.

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5 minutes ago, craigcwwe said:

 

Interesting. Must just have a bad penalty taker then!

13 for penalty taking and 14 for composure fwiw

Pellegri is like 16 and 16 for me atm I think.

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The game isn't perfect, but I'm happy with the match engine at the moment.

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