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Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread

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10 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Most rl teams have 0 to 1 player who will dribble more often. How many in FM, avarage AI team for example? 

That's interesting too, and I think you are right, there is just way too much dribbling happening. If players were more inclined to pass than dribble, things may open up at the center of defenses a bit more? With so many players just dribbling towards the corner flag, defenders probably don't have any reason to chase them, instead they just pack it in and wait for the inevitable cross.

Edited by bleventozturk

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2 hours ago, Tiger666 said:

Raised it. No response.

 

I also made a similar thread, I ASSUME they will look into it?

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1 hour ago, danstam said:

Went back to FM17 yesterday, and there's no doubt that the match engine is vastly, vastly superior, BUT... I've heard people say that not enough changes year by year, or the features added are trivial or what have you, but personally, I find it hard to continue with 17 because the immersion is so much more advanced in FM20: training, staff roles, youth development, etc. So I have to give credit to SI in that regard, although I entirely agree with all the ME critiques (albeit my feeling is one of bemusement rather than "anger"). If Football Manager was a Director of Football simulator, it would be one hell of a game in my opinion.

The rest of the game is absolutely fantastic. SI made strides in the last few years. I just can't help but think, WHAT IF they would just accept that they went in the wrong direction the last 3 years, just consider it sunk cost, and go back and restart from where they left off in FM 17 ME? And I know of course the answer to that will be

1) you have no idea how much the ME has improved under the hood

2) FM 17 had major flaws

And my answers are:

to 1) maybe, but visibly it has nothing to show for it

to 2) and FM 20 doesn't??

Played a few hours of FM 17 today. ME is just (relatively) brilliant. But I'm about 10 years into my save there, and and there are only 3! newgen inside forwards in the world who can play in my good but no so great Benfica team. Almost all the AML and AMR's are wingers, and that by itself just kills the long term gameplay. Newgens and AI's player development is so far ahead in FM 20, it is not even comparable, so kudos to SI for that.

 

Edited by bleventozturk

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26 minutes ago, bleventozturk said:

The rest of the game is absolutely fantastic. SI made strides in the last few years. I just can't help but think, WHAT IF they would just accept that they went in the wrong direction the last 3 years, just consider it sunk cost, and go back and restart from where they left off in FM 17 ME? And I know of course the answer to that will be

1) you have no idea how much the ME has improved under the hood

2) FM 17 had major flaws

And my answers are:

to 1) maybe, but visibly it has nothing to show for it

to 2) and FM 20 doesn't??

Played a few hours of FM 17 today. ME is just (relatively) brilliant. But I'm about 10 years into my save there, and and there are only 3! newgen inside forwards in the world who can play in my good but no so great Benfica team. Almost all the AML and AMR's are wingers, and that by itself just kills the long term gameplay. Newgens and AI's player development is so far ahead in FM 20, it is not even comparable, so kudos to SI for that.

 

The perfect solution here would be the FM17 ME with all FM20 features because apart of that the game is amazing but that is impossible i guess.

We are not the only one who thinks FM17 ME is still the best i hope they reconsider the situation and go back to the right direction. Sometimes you have accept critics and go a couple of stepbacks for advance one.

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I quit FM 20 after playing it just one season in the EPL, gone back to FM 19, and found out false 9, dlf, in fm 19 doesnt work as intended, even for striker having the comes deep to get ball traits, striker always stand between two centre back.

has this been fixed in FM 20?

I never played false 9 before

Edited by robinthebest

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Why can't SI give us some feedback on how the patch is going so ppl can calm their nerves...

Isn't that the logical solution to all this dispute?

Can't believe FM and Fifa is similar in price with this sort of after service

 

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4 hours ago, Toonrock said:

Pre-bought the game on 7th of November.

- 67 days in (and counting), it´s a ME with great graphics, I agree (well, there´s the lagging game play of course), and with obvious errors (Balls over Def, 1-on-1´s etc.)

This version included, why is it okay to have customers wait each year for a game to be optimized to a playable state (?)

Had I bought a 12 days holiday each year on a 5-star Hotel (and payed full price), but "unfortunatelly" each year was told that I had to spend 3 of those days at a 1-star Hotel - ...As the years gone by, I would end up pretty furious to put it mildly :rolleyes:

I like this analogy, having worked a few years in a couple of 5-star hotels, and also 4-star and 3-star hotels. 
My experience, funnily enough, is that it's the guests in 5-star hotels that complains the most about silly stuff (the loud minority). They would've been knocking down everything and everyone having to spend those days at different room, let alone a 1-star hotel; or even a 4-star hotel (not everyone, of course).

Question here could be; should the hotel owners redesign the entire, or the majority of the hotel and everything that goes with it, because a loud minority won't accept that there are a few cracks in the tiles on the way to the pool?
They have come this far with a successful recipe after having started out with just a rubbish caravan. 
What about the others who also come year after year and love it because it is what it is? They see the cracked tiles, they know they're there but they walk around them instead. A few cracked tiles won't ruin their holiday.
Or should the hotel just fix the cracks, at least for starters; which they already know are cracked?
Only issue is that there are some pipes underneath that can break and contaminate the pool. If they were to break they would possibly have to close the hotel down for a while and no-one would be staying at the hotel.
They have to find the schematics to check, double-check and triple-check to see how it's built. See what is connected where and to what. Where the hazards are. What's safe to do and how is it safe to do it?
Have to make sure the pipes are safe and secure before the tiles can be changed. It seemed like it was an out-with-the-old-in-with-the-new regarding the tiles. But it wasn't built that way.
So, it'll take time fixing those tiles. And they can't take them away and have an open floor. That's dangerous. Someone could get hurt. Hotel management then let the guests know about the issue.
Fixing it will take longer than they expected and they mark it.
They'd rather do that than close this otherwise wonderful 5-star hotel down for a possibly long period of time, and move people to the old 1-star hotel down the road they used to run before. Very bad for business.
It would be a disaster which would affect the hotel owners/management in a much worse way long-term than spending time fixing those tiles. Inadvertently, also the guests.
And while they fix those tiles they'll be fixing other stuff at the hotel as well. Because rest assured there are definitely many more small "cracks" in other places. They can't just ignore those either.
One says the waterfalls in the pool hardly has any water running. Another one says there's too much water. Which complaint do they go after? Well, they have to compare it with what their own ideas and plans are first.
What do i do if i see those cracks? I'll report it just to make sure and find my way around them. If i can find a temporary solution to the problem at hand i will do just that.

This wasn't meant towards you or anyone, really. And i agree with those who think this is a ridiculous analogy.
I just liked the analogy and took me back to all those ridiculous complaints i used to read and hear about, from the questionnaires and the guests themselves.
Some things never change, no matter what business you're in :D
I really don't blame you, mods, if you delete this post.

Underlying point is; the issues are cracks. That's it. Bigger in some places than others. They're looking to fix them. But there's a massive beast of code underneath the surface.
One thing can lead to another. They just have to figure it all out, fix it, test it, fix some more, test some more etc.
Then they also have to fix other reported issues.

Edited by roykela

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@roykelaThe Mods are happy to leave posts in this thread as long as they are genuine feedback, on topic and not repeating a position that has been raised multiple times before.  To those users who fall into the last group, we would ask that you stop and think before posting again because, as I have said in here before, genuine feedback from new users is getting lost behind the continued repeated discussions between the hard core users and this is counter-productive.  If you have raised a point of concern, then bringing it up again and again is doing no good at all.

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5 hours ago, Iwabik said:

Well, it's difficult not to make the best product when you are the only one making it? Surely, you are not comparing FM to FIFA/PES? 

 

Nobody said it's easy to code, but there were iterations of ME that were much better than the current one. Also, is it fair to charge the customers full price for a product you yourself admit might be too difficult to make properly? 

I'm comparing it to FIFA Manager, LMA, TCM, Eidos CM 2005, Premier Manager. They've been an abundance of management games that haven't even come close. 

What do you mean by 'make properly'? Again there's no other competitor so what's your benchmark? If it's real football then FM will always fall short, it will never be a 1:1 representation. 

I don't like or enjoy the current ME, but I can't stand the entitlement of wanting SI to beg forgiveness or stop production because they failed in your expectation.

 

 

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1 hour ago, dannyfc said:

I'm comparing it to FIFA Manager, LMA, TCM, Eidos CM 2005, Premier Manager. They've been an abundance of management games that haven't even come close. 

What do you mean by 'make properly'? Again there's no other competitor so what's your benchmark? If it's real football then FM will always fall short, it will never be a 1:1 representation. 

I don't like or enjoy the current ME, but I can't stand the entitlement of wanting SI to beg forgiveness or stop production because they failed in your expectation.

 

 

There aren't any other football management games, but there are lots of other simulation/management games.  It is more than reasonable to expect FM to be comparable in terms of the accuracy of simulation and presentation levels to other games in that segment.

 

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3 hours ago, OHoh said:

Why can't SI give us some feedback on how the patch is going so ppl can calm their nerves...

Isn't that the logical solution to all this dispute?

Can't believe FM and Fifa is similar in price with this sort of after service

 

Nothing should be said about after service. Sigames tinker a lot their product after releas,e so I don't see your point. While there are obvious deficiencies in the game they do still actively develop it after release, that committment is undeniable. Eventually the Beta phase should be longer and give multiple years of play to be able test everything. Many customers are usually collaborative on that, while others scream, but that's normality. :brock:

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I've asked about a million times whether the UEFA coefficients issue will be save game compatible. 

I'm not asking for a definitive yes, I know SI can't tell for sure, I'm just asking is there even a 1% chance it might be or is it like a data update where there's a 0% chance? I don't know why this is so difficult to communicate. I am not going to be upset by the answer, just let me know one way or another. 

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On December 20, Neil opened a post saying

Match Engine Info and Holiday Plans

Almost a month ago, and we still don't have an update of the ME. They will say until they have no bugs they will not do the update, yes, like all the previous updates, without bugs! Painful. Last time I bought the game ahead of time.

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22 minutes ago, Travis Bickle said:

I've asked about a million times whether the UEFA coefficients issue will be save game compatible. 

I'm not asking for a definitive yes, I know SI can't tell for sure, I'm just asking is there even a 1% chance it might be or is it like a data update where there's a 0% chance? I don't know why this is so difficult to communicate. I am not going to be upset by the answer, just let me know one way or another. 

If this has been reported as a bug and been acknowledged, then ask in the relevant thread in the Bugs forum

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7 minutes ago, FrazT said:

If this has been reported as a bug and been acknowledged, then ask in the relevant thread in the Bugs forum

I have. 3 times. I am not asking for a definitive answer, I know you guys can't give that, but some idea would be nice. It really changes how the European football system works and I'd just like to know. 

 

Edited by Travis Bickle

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4 minutes ago, Travis Bickle said:

I have. 3 times. I am not asking for a definitive answer, I know you guys can't give that, but some idea would be nice. It really changes how the European football system works and I'd just like to know. 

 

Tag the SI staff from that thread and ask again

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I don't play the offside trap, and have two CB's, one as a BPD on Def, and the other as a CB on Cover.  Center back on cover needs a bit of pace, nothing spectacular.  I am not getting caught with balls over the top at all.  I have IF's cutting in at AMR and AML, and AF upfront, im not missing through balls and scoring many of the balls over the top one on one against the computer.  What does happen a lot though is 1 miss numerous sitters throughout the game, CCC chances 6 to 8, only to concede a 40 yard free kick equalizer in injury time from a team who hasn't had a shot on goal.  Had too many of those.

Edited by Major Raver

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hi are we getting a january transfer window update in feb?? if so are there gonna be any changes made to player ratings as i dont understand the way its done this season there are players with decent attribute ratings after scouting but they come back with 2 and half star ability rating ofcourse the obvious players hold 5 stars but there seems to be a very fine margin between being 2 and half and 4 star ability rated on a players attributes. My only other issue is despite having a strong fitness based pre season a few of my players dont seem to be able to play more than 2 games without me being advised to give them a rest and its always my key players too. Other than that i think its a top top game with some great developments love the development center suprised at a few of the young talents ratings and potential ratings being lower than they showing so far this season but im sure if they dont get better ratings this season they will be class on next game. Also on the training side of things i think there should be an option to train tackling in a players individual training options as you can do passing and shooting etc?

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10 hours ago, mp_87 said:

That's been happening since I can remember really paying attention to the game though. Since about FM13 or 14 I've had discussions about the behaviour of wide players and how one dimensional and predictable and unrealistic it is. It's nothing new. Wingers just zooming in a straight line towards the flag before dumping a cross into the box. Inside Forwards cutting inside similarly and banging a shot at goal. Even generic Wide Midfielder roles had/have to be modified with loads of PI's to prevent the run + cross/shoot spam occurring. And other roles have issues too. Raumdeuter has been in for years now and is still such a confused role in how it plays. Also a good point on the fullbacks.

Let's take a look at real life dribbling stats.

 

PREMIER LEAGUE: 

5 PL players have more that 3 dribbles per game. 24 players have more than 2 dribbles per game. 45 have more than 1.5 dribbles per game.

Wolves lead dribbling stats with 13.4. Lowest are Burnley with 6.5.

 

LA LIGA:

Two players have more than 3 dribbles per game. 11 players have more than 2 dribbles per game. 31 players have more than 1.5 dribbles per game.

Highest 11.8. Lowest 6.9 dribbles per game.

 

SERIA A:

Two players with more than 3 dribbles per game. 18 with more than 2 dribbles per game. 38 players with more than 1.5 dribbles per game.

Highest 12.8. Lowest 7.7 dribbles per game.

 

FOOTBALL MANAGER:

Team Stats: Highest 23 dribbles per game. Lowest 13 dribbles per game. (taken from @Tiger666 post)

 

The difference between FM and real life team dribbles per game is pretty close to 100%. 

It would be also interesting to make the spread depending on position anylisys. I'm sure in FM wingers and fullbacks lead dribbling stats while in real life th spread includes many more strikers and MCs.

 

 

Edited by Mitja

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17 minutes ago, Mrowe_86 said:

hi are we getting a january transfer window update in feb?? if so are there gonna be any changes made to player ratings as i dont understand the way its done this season there are players with decent attribute ratings after scouting but they come back with 2 and half star ability rating ofcourse the obvious players hold 5 stars but there seems to be a very fine margin between being 2 and half and 4 star ability rated on a players attributes.

The star rating is an opinion based on a comparison to your squad. Its not a global CA rating based on all the players in the db.

18 minutes ago, Mrowe_86 said:

My only other issue is despite having a strong fitness based pre season a few of my players dont seem to be able to play more than 2 games without me being advised to give them a rest and its always my key players too. Other than that i think its a top top game with some great developments love the development center suprised at a few of the young talents ratings and potential ratings being lower than they showing so far this season but im sure if they dont get better ratings this season they will be class on next game. Also on the training side of things i think there should be an option to train tackling in a players individual training options as you can do passing and shooting etc?

For training advice I'd recommend the Tactics and Training forum :thup:

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15 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Let's take a look at real life dribbling stats.

 

PREMIER LEAGUE: 

5 PL players have more that 3 dribbles per game. 24 players have more than 2 dribbles per game. 45 have more than 1.5 dribbles per game.

Wolves lead dribbling stats with 13.4. Lowest are Burnley with 6.5.

 

LA LIGA:

Two players have more than 3 dribbles per game. 11 players have more than 2 dribbles per game. 31 players have more than 1.5 dribbles per game.

Highest 11.8. Lowest 6.9 dribbles per game.

 

SERIA A:

Two players with more than 3 dribbles per game. 18 with more than 2 dribbles per game. 38 players with more than 1.5 dribbles per game.

Highest 12.8. Lowest 7.7 dribbles per game.

 

FOOTBALL MANAGER:

Team Stats: Highest 23 dribbles per game. Lowest 13 dribbles per game. (taken from @Tiger666 post)

 

The difference between FM and real life team dribbles per game is pretty close to 100%. 

It would be also interesting to make the spread depending on position anylisys. I'm sure in FM wingers and fullbacks lead dribbling stats while in real life th spread includes many more strikers and MCs.

 

 

I play Out of the park baseball and they generate stats that are surprisingly accurate compared to real life.... they have crappy ui and graphics but I don't see ppl complaining when the core of the game is so well established.

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40 minutes ago, OHoh said:

I play Out of the park baseball and they generate stats that are surprisingly accurate compared to real life.... they have crappy ui and graphics but I don't see ppl complaining when the core of the game is so well established.

Dribbling has been out of balance for as long as I play CM/FM. SI could at least evaluate dribbling instructions in roles, half of fullback roles have it on often which is absolutely not how 99,9% of fullbacks play in real football. Same thing applies for most roles imho. Average AI tactic will use 3 or 4 roles that dribble more while in real life it's usually 1 player who has that freedom. Just a liitle more care in roles that have dribbling set to often would improve the gameplay a lot. Of course there's resesearchers input who set players' PPMs, depending on league but PL is really poorly set with it. 

I don't agree with need of generic roles since they are no use to AI. I would remove ''run with ball'' PI and let attributes like dribbling (confidence), composure, teamwork, decision and PPM decide frequency of dribbling. 

Edited by Mitja

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1 hour ago, Mitja said:

Let's take a look at real life dribbling stats.

 

PREMIER LEAGUE: 

5 PL players have more that 3 dribbles per game. 24 players have more than 2 dribbles per game. 45 have more than 1.5 dribbles per game.

Wolves lead dribbling stats with 13.4. Lowest are Burnley with 6.5.

 

LA LIGA:

Two players have more than 3 dribbles per game. 11 players have more than 2 dribbles per game. 31 players have more than 1.5 dribbles per game.

Highest 11.8. Lowest 6.9 dribbles per game.

 

SERIA A:

Two players with more than 3 dribbles per game. 18 with more than 2 dribbles per game. 38 players with more than 1.5 dribbles per game.

Highest 12.8. Lowest 7.7 dribbles per game.

 

FOOTBALL MANAGER:

Team Stats: Highest 23 dribbles per game. Lowest 13 dribbles per game. (taken from @Tiger666 post)

 

The difference between FM and real life team dribbles per game is pretty close to 100%. 

It would be also interesting to make the spread depending on position anylisys. I'm sure in FM wingers and fullbacks lead dribbling stats while in real life th spread includes many more strikers and MCs.

 

 

yes and it led to insane amount of chances and insane amounts of tackles, in game defenders can average 10 tackles per game, but irl they barely hits 5 per game

 

also these stats aren't that unrealistic in FM 19, yet SI refuses to acknowledge their mistakes on the ME and keep saying there are people who are enjoying the game, which means that's fine.

 

If the game doesnt use "Upgraded Match Engine" and "Real football simulation" as selling point, I am okay with it, but it wont costs 30 Euro.

 

For a game costs 30 EUR, I dont expect the game is only playable after waiting few months after the game published, then after few months, a new version is out again, with a revamped match engine again

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5 minutes ago, robinthebest said:

also these stats aren't that unrealistic in FM 19, yet SI refuses to acknowledge their mistakes on the ME and keep saying there are people who are enjoying the game, which means that's fine.

Don't spread something that's blatantly false. SI have acknowledged issues so far and there are several posts about it. One is still highlighted at the top of the page and there's the bugs forum as well.

The ME team will be very aware of the stats that the game produce. They have a long list of stats they keep track of and compare to leagues around the world, top and bottom.

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3 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Don't spread something that's blatantly false. SI have acknowledged issues so far and there are several posts about it. One is still highlighted at the top of the page and there's the bugs forum as well.

The ME team will be very aware of the stats that the game produce. They have a long list of stats they keep track of and compare to leagues around the world, top and bottom.

then how do you explain the dribble stats, tackles stats?

it was unrealistic since beta, why dont they tried to fix it before releasing it, did they purposefully ignored it? or they could not fix it?

but there are some stats are realistic tho, the match score, those 1v1 misses to keep the match score realistic 

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7 минут назад, HUNT3R сказал:

Don't spread something that's blatantly false. SI have acknowledged issues so far and there are several posts about it. One is still highlighted at the top of the page and there's the bugs forum as well.

The ME team will be very aware of the stats that the game produce. They have a long list of stats they keep track of and compare to leagues around the world, top and bottom.

What exactly false? 

19 of December:

We don't feel the match engine is broken, unplayable or needs 'fixing'. We'd like to improve it and that's what we're working on.

 

Concerning stats - a big difference between  tailored for IRL statistics and has the same as IRL statistic because it happens naturally. The worst thing I almost sure you realize it too, but play game minds.
Sorry if I'm wrong about last phrase but it's clear point about difference for me

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8 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

What exactly false? 

I pointed out what is false. Nowhere have SI refused to acknowledge issues. SI aren't saying the ME is perfect or that there aren't issues - they're saying it isn't 'broken' or 'unplayable'.

As I said - the post highlighted at the top is an example of SI saying that there are things on their radar that they're going to improve. That's an acknowledgement of issues (as they're also listing some of the issues) right there.

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21 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

The ME team will be very aware of the stats that the game produce. They have a long list of stats they keep track of and compare to leagues around the world, top and bottom.

It doesn't look they were able to balance wide play and dribbling as long as I remeber. Same thing is happening, constant dribbling down the line even with weaker foot. Very little improvement. We are talking about basic football stuff not some profound details here. What I said earlier just re-evallating of roles would do wonders, it shows how much they pay attention to basic stuff. 

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3 минуты назад, HUNT3R сказал:

Exactly what I quoted as being false. Nowhere have SI refused to acknowledge issues. SI aren't saying the ME is perfect or that there aren't issues - they're saying it isn't 'broken' or 'unplayable'.

As I said - the post highlighted at the top is an example of SI saying that there are things on their radar that they're going to improve. That's an acknowledgement of issues (as they're also listing some of the issues) right there.

Imroves its something from wishlist, fixes its something from bugs. All other is lyrics :) We are adults and understand how it works and developers have no freedom in public but its an unpleasant feeling when somebody try to make a fool of you :D 

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5 minutes ago, Mr U Rosler said:

And therein likely lies the problem.

I suspect many of the ME issues we face come from trying to get ‘the stats to match’, most significantly the average goals per game which seems to be the primary focus with everything working back from there.

Sure, it would be great for the stats to match up to real life, but not at the expense of a neutered match engine. As an entertainment product I’d rather they produced an entertaining Match Engine first and foremost with the focus of matching real life statistics as a secondary issue.

As the moment it seems to work the other way round, trying to be realistic at all costs resulting in a sterile Match Experience. Putting the cart before the horse.

 

I don't understand. What is so realistic in current ME? The problem is they haven't touched things they should years ago.

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I think SI should change its approach on the release of new versions/patches. 

Currently software development is broadly using Continuous Integration and I don't see why this shouldn't happen for FM as well.

Bi-weekly or at least monthly builds could be released with more transparency, while they are in the mean time available in a beta branch were users can potentially provide feedback.

I see no reason this would be a bad idea, it would make all players happier since the process would be much more transparent.

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5 minutes ago, Mr U Rosler said:

And therein likely lies the problem.

I suspect many of the ME issues we face come from trying to get ‘the stats to match’, most significantly the average goals per game which seems to be the primary focus with everything working back from there.

Sure, it would be great for the stats to match up to real life, but not at the expense of a neutered match engine. As an entertainment product I’d rather they produced an entertaining Match Engine first and foremost with the focus of matching real life statistics as a secondary issue.

As the moment it seems to work the other way round, trying to be realistic at all costs resulting in a sterile Match Experience. Putting the cart before the horse.

 

Pretty much summed up a point I was going to make. 17 with it having a great ME generally speaking, had dribbles, tackling and interceptions at high rates and was "far from reality" but it gave us an entertaining show, the variety in goals, crosses, skills and dribbles was pretty class compared to the version now imo. 

Having too much emphasis on making it close to reality (which should be an aim but not at the expense of having the fun and enjoyment being less utilised than previously which seems to be the forums majority stat) is probably hindering some stuff were we'd expect real life players to do. E.g. Messi and ronaldo not scoring alot in game but in reality their attributes are on another level, fm17 gave a similar feeling, so did 18 in most cases and then the generality of it hurt it in 19 and followed onto 20.

My suggestion would be to have a similar use from 17 and take small steps in implementing SOME reality aspects. For me 19 was LVG esque where scoring was meh, crossing was hard and now 20 all be it better, still having issues which seem fine at the beta/alpha stage. That stream yous made was promising, cut backs, intriquate passing just less striker invovlement and it seems like it's going 1 step forward and then 2 steps back atm. 

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In the end all problems that some members notice degradation. We mentioned FM17, FM15, FM14, FM13, FM12 and maybe something else. These versions have less features but they have ME which you believe.
In these ME versions you take decisions and get a consequences. You choose tactic and see how your team reproduce this. More or less. 

So if FM20 was a separate game of first game of SI it would be less critics. But when we have issues which dont happened in prev editions that's confusing. We have the comparisons and our requests about things which SI realized before.
If you have a more stable version in past it looks logic (for outside observer at least) to back for this version and improved this, no push version which create new issues when you repair current. This is not an attempt to teach developers, its reasoning about negative reactions around FM

Edited by Novem9

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6 minutes ago, Mitja said:

I don't understand. What is so realistic in current ME? The problem is they haven't touched things they should years ago.

It's the stats that's close to realism, not the ME. Such as dribbling past opponenets, passing, accruacy of it, shooting etc. The weird thing is statistically it's right to use them but for the wonder of the game and fun of it, it's probably diminishing- im not sure it's possible to get close to realism and have a ME that's "balanced" when stats hinder that. E.g. Messi has an average of 5.5 dribbles per game, the game will say that (not perfectly) but it won't show it "well" either, making him look like a normal player in comparison to the players below him. 

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Just now, BigV said:

It's the stats that's close to realism, not the ME. Such as dribbling past opponenets, passing, accruacy of it, shooting etc. The weird thing is statistically it's right to use them but for the wonder of the game and fun of it, it's probably diminishing- im not sure it's possible to get close to realism and have a ME that's "balanced" when stats hinder that. E.g. Messi has an average of 5.5 dribbles per game, the game will say that (not perfectly) but it won't show it "well" either, making him look like a normal player in comparison to the players below him. 

For me fm17 was closest to reality. It was fun too and challenging. Even if stats were far from reallity don't forget FM19/20 stats are also far from reallity. Basic stats like shots numbers, possession, corners etc..

What I would do is re-evalute all stuff in TC, roles&duties and remove what isn't needed anymore. There are true problems that hinder development of ME and gameplay experience. We need to help them find true reasons why something is happening, like what some of us did with so many concrete examples. Saying ME should be more fun than realsitic is of no help, eventhough I agree with that.

 

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18 minutes ago, Jimmious7 said:

I think SI should change its approach on the release of new versions/patches. 

Currently software development is broadly using Continuous Integration and I don't see why this shouldn't happen for FM as well.

Bi-weekly or at least monthly builds could be released with more transparency, while they are in the mean time available in a beta branch were users can potentially provide feedback.

I see no reason this would be a bad idea, it would make all players happier since the process would be much more transparent.

I said this many times too. There is no point in having the customers wait for months to see if certain bugs they have reported will be fixed or not. Keep releasing new builds frequently, keep customers busy and happier. Win/win situation. Requires a bit more effort on SI's side of course, but isn't it worth it?

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11 минут назад, BigV сказал:

"far from reality" but it gave us an entertaining show, the variety in goals, crosses, skills and dribbles was pretty class compared to the version now imo. 

Having too much emphasis on making it close to reality

It was a sad for me to see a lot of big teams can't win in FM17, a lot of top managers fired in first months and I enjoy to see a big teams take a high places which they deserve in FM20.
But I prefer a clear and fair ME simulation with atributes importance than a 'fixed model' which imitates RL

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11 minutes ago, bleventozturk said:

I said this many times too. There is no point in having the customers wait for months to see if certain bugs they have reported will be fixed or not. Keep releasing new builds frequently, keep customers busy and happier. Win/win situation. Requires a bit more effort on SI's side of course, but isn't it worth it?

This is entirely based on the assumption it's easy for SI to chuck out balanced builds more often though. If it was, it would be happening already. Personally think there's way too much chat around what SI should be doing with not enough understanding of what they do, and it's not like it's not been explained before why it's difficult. 

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2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

This is entirely based on the assumption it's easy for SI to chuck out balanced builds more often though. If it was, it would be happening already. Personally think there's way too much chat around with SI should be doing with not enough understanding of what they do, and it's not like it's not been explained before why it's difficult. 

Obviously I can't know how SI specifically works internally, but I am a pretty experienced software developer and what I'm proposing is common practice all around the industry. It will probably require some restructuring but I do believe that SI should "catch up" with the recent trends in software development because that's what customers expect nowadays. The times have changed and the flow of information is much more important that in the old days.

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6 minutes ago, jc577 said:

I’d have to disagree here;

‘We don't feel the match engine is broken, unplayable or needs 'fixing'. We'd like to improve it and that's what we're working on.’ Statement from Neil Brock/SI. 
 

My issue with this is that clearly, certain aspects of the ME do need fixing. I don’t see how changing the behaviour of CB’s so that there isn’t a 20-yard gap between them can be seen as an ‘improvement.’ Likewise, the abundance of long balls, and poor 1v1 conversions as a result, cannot be seen as improvements to the ME. These are issues which should have been eradicated before the Beta was even released - it’s now mid-jan.

Basic long balls cause so much confusion amongst the backline it’s ridiculous. Defending in general is abysmal, I’ve seen my FB leave his man from a throw in and charge across the other side of the box - for no apparent reason - several times on this edition, and in FM19 too.

In all honesty, that statement from SI is rife with a lack of accountability, passing off serious issues as potential ‘improvements’. It seems as if SI are happy with the balance of the game when the reality is, they shouldn’t be. 
 

The issues I mentioned above are the extremely obvious ones which should have been dealt with, but there are a plethora of which @themadsheep2001explained in great detail. I do understand that SI have a very difficult job on their hands, and I do not mean to attack them in any way, but their assessment of the game vs. User perception is vastly different, and the most important thing for any business is to understand their customers. 
 

Do I believe the current ME to be unplayable? Probably not. However, that doesn’t mean it isn’t unplayable to some. Some posters in here should take that under consideration, instead of attacking people who have differing opinions to themselves. 

My main gripe is the lack of clear, coherent and congruent communication from SI. I’m sure most users would feel somewhat appeased if SI were talking us through the fixes, reassuring us that it’s a priority, even given as a potential timescale, which of course, we would understand if it had to be delayed. However, sitting in the dark, unaware of whether changes will be made before the winter patch, doesn’t exactly do much to stifle the discontent amongst some members of the community. 
 

SI do deserve credit for the non-ME changes that have been made over the past three years, truly amazing work. The development centre, training and club vision are my personal faves - especially club vision, as you really feel like you’re building a project just as in real life. It also acts as a point of reference if the board decide your time is over - was I meeting my targets? Was the project headed in the right direction? Great stuff :applause:
 

FM20 has the potential to be the best of the lot, no doubt, but if you can’t replicate your style of football on the pitch, then all the off-field improvements become rather futile, unfortunately.

 

Woah back up there sparky. Don't be tagging me into posts of an entirely different agenda. I'm just posting what I think could be worth looking at from my personal point of view. I don't speak for anyone else and it's not a review of SI. 

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2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Woah back up there sparky. Don't be tagging me into posts of an entirely different agenda. I'm just posting what I think could be worth looking at from my personal point of view. I don't speak for anyone else and it's not a review of SI

That was not my intention sir, apologies. I was merely citing your post which explained in depth a lot of ME issues with the game in its current state. 

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20 minutes ago, jc577 said:

That was not my intention sir, apologies. I was merely citing your post which explained in depth a lot of ME issues with the game in its current state. 

Accepted, there's been a few people doing that and I'm not a fan of it. I'm just interested providing something useful for SI to look at for FM 20 rather than the wider debate on what they should do or shouldn't do

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