Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread

[KUBI]

 

vor 8 Minuten schrieb janrzm:

There needs to be an element of randomness I accept that and I want it. At the same time I know exactly what you mean by that statement. When you play versions of this game for thousands of hours you become sensitive to subtle changes like this and as a result you can tell what does and doesn't "feel" right.

Yes, but that's because we all think in two ways - real football and ME, these are two different kind of things. Both have their limitation and random factor. In the current ME it seems that mentality is more important (at first) than instructions, so you need to think first, what kind of mentality will represent my tactics and playing style the best. It's obviously not ideal, but when you manage an amateur club in real football you have a lot more of limitations to consider. 

[Mitja]

I blame mentality too. Seriously.

[bleventozturk]

14 minutes ago, KUBI said:

 

In the current ME it seems that mentality is more important than instructions, so you need to think first, what kind of mentality will represent my tactics and playing style the best. It's obviously not ideal, but when you manage an amateur club in real football you have a lot more of limitations to consider. 

You may be onto something here. 

[divij13]

Not sure where to post this but I feel Goalkeeper Ratings aren't accurate.

My GK has kept 25 clean sheets and conceded 13 in 35 league games yet only has an Avg rating of 6.93

Shouldn't Clean Sheets be rewarded when rating the GK?

It seems that Goalkeepers get good ratings when they make 6 or more saves in a game but not a very good rating if they make 5 saves and keep a clean sheet.

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by divij13

[victorpetroll]

11 minutes ago, divij13 said:

Not sure where to post this but I feel Goalkeeper Ratings aren't accurate.

My GK has kept 25 clean sheets and conceded 13 in 35 league games yet only has an Avg rating of 6.93

Shouldn't Clean Sheets be rewarded when rating the GK?

It seems that Goalkeepers get good ratings when they make 6 or more saves in a game but not a very good rating if they make 5 saves and keep a clean sheet.

 

Usually goalkeepers do not have good grades at all. In FM 19 I had a season that Pau Lopez conceded just 13 goals in La Liga and their average rating was less than 7.0.

[Svenc]

20 minutes ago, divij13 said:

My GK has kept 25 clean sheets and conceded 13 in 35 league games yet only has an Avg rating of 6.93

Shouldn't Clean Sheets be rewarded when rating the GK?

 

Shouldn't that depend?  
 

 

[divij13]

Rather than each save, how about a small boost in Rating for a clean sheet if the team manages to keep one? 

I maybe wrong, but don't the ratings for defenders go up with a clean sheet? Or does the rating only depend on tackles, interceptions, passes, headers etc.? 

[bleventozturk]

1 minute ago, divij13 said:

Rather than each save, how about a small boost in Rating for a clean sheet if the team manages to keep one? 

I maybe wrong, but don't the ratings for defenders go up with a clean sheet? Or does the rating only depend on tackles, interceptions, passes, headers etc.? 

You are right I believe, that was the case in all the previous FM's, defenders' rating was going up with clean sheet, but not as a small boost at the end, but gradually during the game. It is probably still like that. I agree that it should be the same for GK's at least, but it seems not to be the case.

[LucasBR]

To be honest I don't think a keeper deserve a good rating just because he had a clean sheet. Maybe the defence did a better job and the keeper just saved 1 or 2 shot.

[harrycarrie]

1 hour ago, janrzm said:

I know what you mean about wishing you could "bank" the ME just in case it regressed. Personally I feel this ME can get back on track and it feels like theres a direct correlation between the main issues, fingers crossed.

Whilst it's been frustrating the most significant long term effect for me is it's converted me from a pre-release buyer of the game to one who will now wait until the last patch release before purchase. Once you've made the initial adjustment you're still 12 months between releases.  

You can bank the ME.

 

Just copy the game folder from the Steamapps folder to somewhere as a back up then if the patch comes out and you hate it, copy that folder back over. Ta da. Juat be aware saves from a patch higher than the version you're trying to play wont work.

 

It's how I can play the Beta version.

[divij13]

12 minutes ago, LucasBR said:

To be honest I don't think a keeper deserve a good rating just because he had a clean sheet. Maybe the defence did a better job and the keeper just saved 1 or 2 shot.

Hmm, interesting point that I would like to offer a counter argument for. 

The GK is an integral part of the Defensive Unit even when not making saves. His communication with the defense / building play from the back deserve to be rewarded if the team is not conceding goals. Especially if the rest of the defense gets a boost in ratings for the Clean Sheet but not the GK. 

Because my team has most of the ball in the game, he normally does not need to make more than 6 saves in a game. But when he needs to, he'll make that crucial save to keep the Clean Sheet intact. IMO, I don't think he should be penalized for not having Saves to make. He's doing everything right when called upon.

[bleventozturk]

25 minutes ago, harrycarrie said:

You can bank the ME.

 

Just copy the game folder from the Steamapps folder to somewhere as a back up then if the patch comes out and you hate it, copy that folder back over. Ta da. Juat be aware saves from a patch higher than the version you're trying to play wont work.

 

It's how I can play the Beta version.

Is that really possible? I thought that even if you do that, the next time you start the game, steam will detect that you don't have the newest version and it will automatically update again?

 

[janrzm]

1 hour ago, harrycarrie said:

You can bank the ME.

 

Just copy the game folder from the Steamapps folder to somewhere as a back up then if the patch comes out and you hate it, copy that folder back over. Ta da. Juat be aware saves from a patch higher than the version you're trying to play wont work.

 

It's how I can play the Beta version.

 

Thanks! Wish I'd done that with ME2016....

Edited January 4, 2020 by janrzm

[harrycarrie]

1 hour ago, bleventozturk said:

Is that really possible? I thought that even if you do that, the next time you start the game, steam will detect that you don't have the newest version and it will automatically update again?

 

Edit 1100600.acf in steam/steamapps in notepad and change "State Flags" to 4. This will tell Steam it's been updated to the latest version and stop it attempting the update. Works perfectly, I had a four season save on beta build a week or so ago.

Just make sure Steam isnt open when you copy the files over and edit that file.

Edited January 4, 2020 by harrycarrie

[bleventozturk]

Out of curiosity I checked out a few youtube videos showing matches from FM 20 Beta, and although everything looks smoother to my eyes, it has that thing that I am sick off, which is almost all the balls are played to wide areas in the final third. Way too many long diagonal balls. That is just so dull and unrealistic, so boring to watch. Very similar to FM 19. I have seen a few situations where the CB's have the opportunity to play the long ball to the striker which happens a lot in the current version, he just chooses to send a long diagonal ball to the wing instead, that's the only difference. Still a successful long ball, it just doesn't lead to a 1on1, instead we keep seeing ball played to wide area, dribble, cross. Or dribble, send another long ball all the way to the other wing, than cross. No central play.

See, for me THAT is unplayable. And that is why I want to bank this version because I have a feeling that SI won't be able to remove the broken long balls without killing the central play.

This also shows that during all this balancing, it is near impossible for SI to produce an ME that will make everybody happy. There are people who think the current version is broken, and they prefer BETA. For me BETA (and FM 19) is incredibly boring and repetitive.

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by bleventozturk

[CityAndColour]

I actually think poor defensive headers are a bigger issue than the long balls/through balls/defensive reactions at the moment. Defenders seem incapable of heading the ball more than a couple of metres, or they will head it back into a danger area, or head a ball they could control or let it go into touch. The result is attacks get recycled when they shouldn't be, as proper headed defensive clearances aren't made. It also makes long, hopeful bals into the box more dangerous because defenders can't seem to deal with them first time.

I found this to be a real issue in FM19 and felt it was pretty much fixed for every version on FM20 until this current one, where it is back with a bang.

[darthlemon]

I think I'm done with this year's version because of the match engine. FM will naturally keep me entertained and the game itself is very good (ME excluded), as always, but the match engine has just got too frustrating to carry on with.

I've played 14 seasons on this version and I've moved around multiple teams, trying to play different styles of football and adapting to the various squads I've built, but no matter what do I come to the same conclusion: every single match feels exactly the same and it's absolutely killing the experience. I love Football Manager and can easily sink hundreds/thousands of hours into each year but this match engine really feels fundamentally broken. 

Every 'big' match goes exactly the same way: tight, edgy affair that is decided by a scrappy set piece that bounces round in the box and is blasted in the top corner. In fact, the majority of goals in the game seem to stem from set pieces (whether it be directly from the set piece or from the resulting aftermath, which doesn't appear in the stats). Multiple one on ones will be missed along the way (just random hoofs over the top, but I won't beat that drum), and multiple headers will be blazed over the bar from 3 yards out. 

Whether you're winning or losing, the match engine feels so detached from reality and more importantly, so unenjoyable to watch or try to create a tactic for. If you win, is it because your tactics are 'good'? or because you've figured out what isn't totally broken in the ME? 

There's no interesting interplay or incision from players. You can have passing on very short or direct, and you'll still just see the same pass sideways and hoofs upfield. Goals won't be satisfying fruits of labour, they'll be a scrappy set piece lumped into the mixer, a woeful backpass that falls short of a keeper or a long shot from 30 yards.

There's lots of little bugs and glitches in the game, but it's easy to overlook them because the game is so vast and they don't totally kill the immersion. This match engine is a cornerstone of the game and it is just so relentlessly unenjoyable to work with. People will say that it's evolved since the older days of FM and CM, and I'm sure they're right, but honestly, it's hard to remember anything in those versions remotely like this where the ME is so one dimensional, boring & repetitive, and just killing the game.

Apologies SI, I'm sure you worked hard on this year but I wanted to make a post with honest feedback.

Edited January 4, 2020 by darthlemon

[Svenc]

6 hours ago, divij13 said:

Because my team has most of the ball in the game, he normally does not need to make more than 6 saves in a game. But when he needs to, he'll make that crucial save to keep the Clean Sheet intact. IMO, I don't think he should be penalized for not having Saves to make. He's doing everything right when called upon.

Ideally it should depend on the difficulties of the save, rather than the volumes. Else, you'd have all the Bottom third of the table keepers on a bias; plus all Teams playing defensive football. Because, quite a few times your own Team too doesn't concede many shots by performance, but rather by a pick in your opposition tactics, who may be Content with a draw, or not getting trashed. (That's what's happened at Bayern every other week during Guardiola's reign there). 

In particular on FM; I don't agree with the vice versa propositon: That a keeper making a dozen shots had necessarily much difficulties making those, as rather easy to save shots are too easy to come by. This will continue for as long as this is the case. 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Svenc

[divij13]

1 hour ago, Svenc said:

Ideally it should depend on the difficulties of the save, rather than the volumes. Else, you'd have all the Bottom third of the table keepers on a bias; plus all Teams playing defensive football. Because, quite a few times your own Team too doesn't concede many shots by performance, but rather by a pick in your opposition tactics, who may be Content with a draw, or not getting trashed. (That's what's happened at Bayern every other week during Guardiola's reign there). 

In particular on FM; I don't agree with the vice versa propositon: That a keeper making a dozen shots had necessarily much difficulties making those, as rather easy to save shots are too easy to come by. This will continue for as long as this is the case. 

Agreed that quality of saves should decide the rating. But since that seems difficult, how about goalkeepers being rewarded the same as defenders for a clean sheet, if that is actually the case? 

I must admit, a lot of this stems from my OCD of trying to have all the players in the squad get an average rating of over 7 over the course of the season

No matter how good of a season my GK has, I can barely ever get his Avg Rating to go above 7 which seems odd.

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by divij13

[tcoleman1]

Enjoying the game as a whole but going to take a break for a while in the nope of new match engine patch.

I'm having way too many results where I'm not being outplayed but my players are missing ridiculously easy chances, one-on-ones etc.

I understand they can't score them all but ultimately it's not realistic to miss THAT many chances of such ease. 

[styluz05]

I actually really like the ME but guess I'm alone in this. 

[HUNT3R]

Just now, styluz05 said:

I actually really like the ME but guess I'm alone in this. 

You're not. While I agree there are definite improvements to be made, I haven't suffered as others have when it comes to the common problems. I hardly concede any 1 v 1 chances (so almost no goals) and while a create a couple per match, my tactic creates a lot of different chances, so I find plenty of ways to score. I'm quite enjoying it, mostly because I've realised that getting your pressing, LoE and D-line set up properly can have great results. Almost no laser guided long ball issues against my tactic - and I'm playing aggressively - but my defenders mop up the long balls comfortably.

[the_gers_fan]

9 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

You're not. While I agree there are definite improvements to be made, I haven't suffered as others have when it comes to the common problems. I hardly concede any 1 v 1 chances (so almost no goals) and while a create a couple per match, my tactic creates a lot of different chances, so I find plenty of ways to score. I'm quite enjoying it, mostly because I've realised that getting your pressing, LoE and D-line set up properly can have great results. Almost no laser guided long ball issues against my tactic - and I'm playing aggressively - but my defenders mop up the long balls comfortably.

HUNT3R could you upload your tactic? I’m intrigued to see how your tactic works and how you manage not to suffer from the current ME issues.

[heyhowie]

Any word on when we'll have the next patch? 

 

ME at the moment just kills any desire to play the game. 

[Mitja]

It would be interesting to compare tactical approach of people who experience ME issues with those who don't. Not only tactical instructions but also the way you play, like do you switch bewteen tactics, adapt to opposition, duties combination etc.  Game has evolved a lot tactically in last few years also AI became much more proactive, changing tactics/mentality a lot during games. I like that.

But that being said I wonder why doesn't SI consider how mentality works and is it even needed anymore? One instruction that rules them all!

Again we witness pattern of extreme tactics being problematic. Attacking being too direct, rushed. I can confidently say from experience (of course depending slightly on ME version) that game between two even mentalities will produce far less abnormal stats, like shot numbers, quality of shots, more realistic possession stats where Burlney won't outpass City, less crosses (FM19) and most importantly realistic football style. I think this simplistic approach could lead to far superior ME because currently mentality is holding it down. It must be a nightmare to code with instruction that modifies almost all other. It's simply not needed anymore. There are more than enough other instructions, roles&duties, PPMs that affect how risky players will play. Dear SI do yourself a favour and think about it. If mentality can't be scraped altogether then limit it to three basic ones.    

Edited January 4, 2020 by Mitja

[tcoleman1]

15 minutes ago, Mitja said:

It would be interesting to compare tactical approach with peeople who experience ME issues with those that don't. Not only tactical instructions but also the way you play, like do you switch bewteen tactics, duty selection etc.  Game has evolved a lot tactically in last few years also AI became much more proactive, changing tactics/menatlity a lot during games. I like that.

But that being said I wonder why doesn't SI consider how mentality works and is it even needed anymore? One instruction that rules them all! Again we witness pattern of attacking tactics being problematic, too direct, rushed. I can confidently say from experience (of course depending slightly on ME version) that game between two even mentalities will produce far less abnormal stats, like shots count, quality of shots, more realistic possession stats where Burlney won't outpass City, less crosses (FM19), and most importantly realistic football style. I think this simplistic approach could lead to far superior ME because currently mentality is holding it down. It must be nightmare to code with instruction that modifies them all. It's not needed anymore. There are more than enough other instructions, roles&duties, PPMs that affect how risky players will play. Dear SI do yourself a favour and think about it. If mentality can't be scraped then limit it to three basic ones.    

It would be interesting to be fair but my issue isn't with tactics in general just the finishing.

I have many many games where I miss countless chances that are either one-on-ones or easy shots they just miss. Players drag it wide for no reason  hit it straight at the keeper or just miss. 

I would rather not create the chances, than to miss them as the amount they miss is quite silly. It does happen to the opposition as well but I genuinely feel as soon as I see an easy chance, I will 100% miss it.

I get the tactical debate but like real life, finishing chances as easy as these shouldn't be anything to do with tactics. The most common text on my commentary is he can't believe he missed it, that's an absolute sitter, he's got his head in his hands etc.

The only thing I can possibly think tactically is that I play a high tempo but does that mean the players even rush their shooting and finishing? It shouldn't.

Edited January 4, 2020 by tcoleman1

[Mitja]

3 minutes ago, tcoleman1 said:

It would be interesting to be fair but my issue isn't with tactics in general just the finishing.

I have many many games where I miss countless chances that are either one-on-ones or easy shots they just miss. Players drag it wide for no reason  hit it straight at the keeper or just miss. 

I would rather not create the chances, than to miss them as the amount they miss is quite silly. It does happen to the opposition as well but I genuinely feel as soon as I see an easy chance, I will 100% miss it.

I get the tactical debate but like real life, finishing chances as easy as these shouldn't be anything to do with tactics. The most common text on my commentary is he can't believe he missed it, that's an absolute sitter, he's got his head in his hands etc.

I agree with you it shouldn't be tactical but there are people who experience it more. So far we know or think we know higher d-line and attacking mentalities produce too many 1on1's.   

[Svenc]

30 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Dear SI do yourself a favour and think about it. If mentality can't be scraped altogether then limit it to three basic ones.    

Getting rid of it entirelly imo would be a bad idea as it's also connected to "attacking intent", which is engine inherent. E.g. on more cautious mentalities there are more back passes and vice versa. Get rid of that, and there is no difference and all Matches Play the same as on FIFA Manager whatever, which each side Looking to score and moving the ball upfield the Moment they get the ball. It's easily the most detached Thing from Football though and is the most easily misunderstood. 

The thing that needs to be done in the future is SI embracing Football concepts proper as well as balancing the engine according to them. Both to make the game more accessibly without sacrificing depth, but also as the mentalities also by AI may be misused. There is the misconception that more cautious mentalities would be possession based as such (which they aren't), and that on more aggressive mentliaties you couldn't Play possession based Football, but that's what it is, a misconception. It depends on all the other instructions, and the role/duty structures, and basically…. too much stuff, also for the AI's sake. At the Moment everybody still gets to invent their own flavor of vanilla.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Svenc

[Mitja]

2 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Getting rid of it entirelly imo would be a bad idea as it's also connected to "attacking intent", which is engine inherent. E.g. on more cautious mentalities there are more back passes and vice versa. Get rid of that, and there is no difference and all Matches Play the same as on FIFA Manager whatever, which each side Looking to score and moving the ball upfield the Moment they get the ball. It's easily the most detached Thing from Football though and is the most easily misunderstood. 

Passing style, tempo, time wasting, pass into space, creative freedom, different roles and duties, ppms all infuence it too or they should. Mentality shouldn't in my books.

[ferrarinseb]

I feel we can get rid of Mentality but in a way that the game entirely set on Balanced. With Tempo Dictating how much faster the ball will move forward. The only thing Mentality Judges is risk taking, Which can be done via Player Roles and Duties.

[Mitja]

7 minutes ago, Svenc said:

The thing that needs to be done in the future is SI embracing Football concepts proper as well as balancing the engine according to them. Both to make the game more accessibly without sacrificing depth, but also as the mentalities also by AI may be misused. There is the misconception that more cautious mentalities would be possession based as such (which they aren't), and that on more aggressive mentliaties you couldn't Play possession based Football, but that's what it is, a misconception. It depends on all the other instructions, and the role/duty structures, and basically…. too much stuff, also for the AI's sake. At the Moment everybody still gets to invent their own flavor of vanilla.

I'm sure they are trying. 

As for the bold part, it's exactly the reason why there's no need for mentality anymore.

[Sharkn20]

2 hours ago, styluz05 said:

I actually really like the ME but guess I'm alone in this. 

You clearly haven't played enough FMs

Edited January 4, 2020 by Sharkn20

[Novem9]

Another (or side of the same) mentality's problem - AI doesn't realize how to play vs underdogs. If I use positive mentality (for counter, no possession), AI tries to play careful lol, but in fact AI could smash me in positive vs positive.

[TTarps]

8 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

Another (or side of the same) mentality's problem - AI doesn't realize how to play vs underdogs. If I use positive mentality (for counter, no possession), AI tries to play careful lol, but in fact AI could smash me in positive vs positive.

Its almost like the AI is hinting at something.

[Iwabik]

While getting completely rid of mentality is a bit drastic, I feel like they could do something similar to what they've done with team fluidity. It changes by itself as you change you instructions. I think that this way creating a more balanced tactic would be more intuistic.

[ferrarinseb]

53 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

Another (or side of the same) mentality's problem - AI doesn't realize how to play vs underdogs. If I use positive mentality (for counter, no possession), AI tries to play careful lol, but in fact AI could smash me in positive vs positive.

I agree, Which is why i think take the Mentalities out of the game. Though ,I know it will be gigantic change given how Mentality is tied up with almost every aspect of ME. 

Edited January 4, 2020 by ferrarinseb

[pheelf]

3 hours ago, styluz05 said:

I actually really like the ME but guess I'm alone in this. 

You most definitely aren't, it's just that this thread tends to be populated with some of the games most vociferous critics who seemingly find it necessary to hammer the game on a daily basis. The overwhelming majority of players aren't of the opinion that the ME is 'broken' or 'unplayable' as if they did feel that way they wouldn't be playing it and moreover SI sales would be plummeting year after year.

1 hour ago, Sharkn20 said:

You clearly haven't played enough FMs

I don't know whether it was your intention but comments like this don't come across well. This is why players that have positive feedback to give on the game don't tend to post in this thread as much and why it reads like a wall of negativity. If players are enjoying the ME that's their opinion and they are entitled to have it and share it in this thread whether you agree with it or not. Your counter argument isn't very good either considering that previous FMs have also been plagued with issues in the ME.

As for this whole 'get rid of mentalities' idea. What do you propose to replace it with? Bear in mind that it acts as a simplification within the game and that any new system would require the AI to be capable of using it.

Edited January 4, 2020 by pheelf

[fidelitywars]

18 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Done by PIs. I'm away so this is going to be very rough but you can doing it by two ways: setting a team pressing level higher and asking your defensive section to close down less, or setting it at a medium/lower team level and asking your attacking block to close down more. I often combine this with hard tackling on attacking players for man city-like tactical fouling. I usually play 4-3-3 so my split is usually back 4 plus DM Vs CMs, AML/R and CF. Check the tactical section of the forum or when I'm back to my machine on Monday I can send you what my split looks like properly. 

Thank you; will take a look!

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, Sharkn20 said:

You clearly haven't played enough FMs

Don't post stuff like this, it's neither helpful or constructive. 

[Mitja]

24 minutes ago, pheelf said:

As for this whole 'get rid of mentalities' idea. What do you propose to replace it with? Bear in mind that it acts as a simplification within the game and that any new system would require the AI to be capable of using it.

Why new system? It wouldn't be the first thing that was modified or removed. Obviously it couldn't be totally removed but alternative would be having only one (or maybe three) since different roles and duties still need positioning modifier. Then all other TIs and PIs would determine your playing mentality just like they do in real football. And it's exactly AI and new fm players who would benefit most from simplification as well as ME of course.

[Mitja]

1 hour ago, Iwabik said:

While getting completely rid of mentality is a bit drastic, I feel like they could do something similar to what they've done with team fluidity. It changes by itself as you change you instructions. I think that this way creating a more balanced tactic would be more intuistic.

That wouldn't change anything and would only lead to presets being the only tactical tool available.

[Bobek]

4 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

You're not. While I agree there are definite improvements to be made, I haven't suffered as others have when it comes to the common problems. I hardly concede any 1 v 1 chances (so almost no goals) and while a create a couple per match, my tactic creates a lot of different chances, so I find plenty of ways to score. I'm quite enjoying it, mostly because I've realised that getting your pressing, LoE and D-line set up properly can have great results. Almost no laser guided long ball issues against my tactic - and I'm playing aggressively - but my defenders mop up the long balls comfortably.

So i have to play only one tactic that actuallly works becouse its not bugged?? Then just delete the other things like low crosses that are not working...  

Just becouse you know what aint broken in ME aint reason to play it. And also its just boring and not rewarding 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Bobek

[HUNT3R]

21 minutes ago, Bobek said:

So i have to play only one tactic that actuallly works becouse its not bugged?? Then just delete the other things like low crosses that are not working...  

Just becouse you know what aint broken in ME aint reason to play it. And also its just boring and not rewarding 

That's a poor argument because you've made assumptions. As I said, the relationship between pressing, LoE and D-Line is very important. That means you can have many different tactics - you still need to get those 3 things properly set up to be defensively stable. I've also said there are issues. SI said there are issues. I'm just saying there are ways to lessen the issues so that it doesn't become a massive problem.

I've also posted before that I've used different tactics - one a counter tactic with a team 1000-1 to win the league and now 2 different variations of a tactic who are dominant (and predicted to finish 2nd) and we are dominating most matches. Very different teams. Very different tactics. Still not suffering as I used to since I realised that those 3 things are important.

To help - I simply looked at the presets' starting settings as a guide. I adjust from there.

 

Instead of just jumping on anyone with a different view - maybe think and ask "why are they seeing something different?". That's helped me earlier in the Beta when I really wasn't impressed with the play I was seeing.

[bcereus]

29 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

That's a poor argument because you've made assumptions. As I said, the relationship between pressing, LoE and D-Line is very important. That means you can have many different tactics - you still need to get those 3 things properly set up to be defensively stable. I've also said there are issues. SI said there are issues. I'm just saying there are ways to lessen the issues so that it doesn't become a massive problem.

I've also posted before that I've used different tactics - one a counter tactic with a team 1000-1 to win the league and now 2 different variations of a tactic who are dominant (and predicted to finish 2nd) and we are dominating most matches. Very different teams. Very different tactics. Still not suffering as I used to since I realised that those 3 things are important.

To help - I simply looked at the presets' starting settings as a guide. I adjust from there.

 

Instead of just jumping on anyone with a different view - maybe think and ask "why are they seeing something different?". That's helped me earlier in the Beta when I really wasn't impressed with the play I was seeing.

You still haven't shared your tactics to see how you are eliminating the long passes over the top and how you are playing with your own team not making the same passes to your striker who misses. I'm sure SI would also be interested in seeing this tactic since they are working on a fix for something you are adamant can be fixed in the game.

Also no one should have to create a workaround tactic for an extreme bias of the ME, football is about variety and many teams play different styles and guess what, they work for them, high line, closing down, sitting off etc. You have people here who have played thousands of hours of this game, I'm sure they understand what they are doing.

A good game presents you with a problem and a multiple of ways to solve it, if the ME is forcing the user down a specific route, it is most definitely broken and against the whole idea of a player creating his own story in this game.

I'm not saying it's not enjoyable for you but the evidence is there, SI know something is wrong and they are working on a fix because many of their players have complained. This was a video game that was beloved by many for years , they know what feels right and what doesn't. This ME is not fun at all, I personally feel like I am fighting the ME to do what I want. It sucks.

[bleventozturk]

51 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

That's a poor argument because you've made assumptions. As I said, the relationship between pressing, LoE and D-Line is very important. That means you can have many different tactics - you still need to get those 3 things properly set up to be defensively stable. I've also said there are issues. SI said there are issues. I'm just saying there are ways to lessen the issues so that it doesn't become a massive problem.

I've also posted before that I've used different tactics - one a counter tactic with a team 1000-1 to win the league and now 2 different variations of a tactic who are dominant (and predicted to finish 2nd) and we are dominating most matches. Very different teams. Very different tactics. Still not suffering as I used to since I realised that those 3 things are important.

To help - I simply looked at the presets' starting settings as a guide. I adjust from there.

 

Instead of just jumping on anyone with a different view - maybe think and ask "why are they seeing something different?". That's helped me earlier in the Beta when I really wasn't impressed with the play I was seeing.

This is a great post.

I just want to add that in my experience it also matters how your opponent is lined up, what kind of forwards they are playing, and how your defenders are matching up with those forwards. My default setup doesn't suffer long balls usually, but sometimes I face an opponent that is more aggressive, and plays with fast forwards in attacking roles. I see immediately in the first 10 minutes of the match that I need to pull my defensive line back from high to normal, and it works! But if you don't adjust, you just suffer too many of those long balls, and that's what needs to be fixed/balanced. However, as things stand, you don't HAVE TO suffer the long balls, they are not impossible to deal with, and the way to deal with them is a logical way, and not some unrealistic modification of your tactics.

Edited January 4, 2020 by bleventozturk

[HUNT3R]

3 minutes ago, bcereus said:

you are adamant can be fixed in the game.

That's where you've missed an important part - I'm not. I'm well aware of the issues. I have set up so that it's much less of an issue. I never said it disappears completely.

I also know the AI is struggling with this. Before I took over the current team, most of their goal assists were from deep. Clearly something wrong as they're supposed to be one of the better teams. Since I've taken over - goals from all around and a drastic reduction of those assists from deep.

We're ALL agreeing there are issues. No one said there isn't. Again - please don't make assumptions over what I'm saying. 

[KiLLu12258]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb darthlemon:

I think I'm done with this year's version because of the match engine. FM will naturally keep me entertained and the game itself is very good (ME excluded), as always, but the match engine has just got too frustrating to carry on with.

I've played 14 seasons on this version and I've moved around multiple teams, trying to play different styles of football and adapting to the various squads I've built, but no matter what do I come to the same conclusion: every single match feels exactly the same and it's absolutely killing the experience. I love Football Manager and can easily sink hundreds/thousands of hours into each year but this match engine really feels fundamentally broken. 

Every 'big' match goes exactly the same way: tight, edgy affair that is decided by a scrappy set piece that bounces round in the box and is blasted in the top corner. In fact, the majority of goals in the game seem to stem from set pieces (whether it be directly from the set piece or from the resulting aftermath, which doesn't appear in the stats). Multiple one on ones will be missed along the way (just random hoofs over the top, but I won't beat that drum), and multiple headers will be blazed over the bar from 3 yards out. 

Whether you're winning or losing, the match engine feels so detached from reality and more importantly, so unenjoyable to watch or try to create a tactic for. If you win, is it because your tactics are 'good'? or because you've figured out what isn't totally broken in the ME? 

There's no interesting interplay or incision from players. You can have passing on very short or direct, and you'll still just see the same pass sideways and hoofs upfield. Goals won't be satisfying fruits of labour, they'll be a scrappy set piece lumped into the mixer, a woeful backpass that falls short of a keeper or a long shot from 30 yards.

There's lots of little bugs and glitches in the game, but it's easy to overlook them because the game is so vast and they don't totally kill the immersion. This match engine is a cornerstone of the game and it is just so relentlessly unenjoyable to work with. People will say that it's evolved since the older days of FM and CM, and I'm sure they're right, but honestly, it's hard to remember anything in those versions remotely like this where the ME is so one dimensional, boring & repetitive, and just killing the game.

Apologies SI, I'm sure you worked hard on this year but I wanted to make a post with honest feedback.

you nailed it with your post. The main issue is that this ME doesnt look like real football, not even a bit and it just looks not fun to watch. 

My biggest issue with this that i think it was better directly after the release and it seems like they are not able to fix the biggest issue it has. 

I tryed like 10 different formations and every setting i could change but my team (gladbach) played the exactly same random style every game, with like 10 1on1 situations were my striker missing the goal and the opponent playing with 10 long balls over my defenders just watching how nicely the ball is flying over them.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by KiLLu12258

[themadsheep2001]

9 minutes ago, bleventozturk said:

This is a great post.

I just want to add that in my experience it also matters how your opponent is lined up, what kind of forwards they are playing, and how your defenders are matching up with those forwards. My default setup doesn't suffer long balls usually, but sometimes I face an opponent that is more aggressive, and plays with fast forwards in attacking roles. I see immediately in the first 10 minutes of the match that I need to pull my defensive line back from high to normal, and it works! But if you don't adjust, you just suffer too many of those long balls, and that's what needs to be fixed/balanced. However, as things stand, you don't HAVE TO suffer the long balls, they are not impossible to deal with, and the way to deal with them is a logical way, and not some unrealistic modification of your tactics.

This. If/when SI get the balance right there's still going to be that threat. It's a threat that hasn't existed anywhere near enough before tbh. And while the balance needs looking at, I'm glad it's there. 

[BigV]

Why not just have the mentalities give TI's that are fixed but also changeable for example Attacking with passing that can be changed but have some areas fixed to fit the attacking mentality? same with the other mentalities. I think that's where FM17 could've been improved on cause you could play attacking and retain possession and come out better. I know it'll be hard to produce as they've only just changed it to a new state and use than previous fm's but it's maybe worth noting. 

[Svenc]

29 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

This. If/when SI get the balance right there's still going to be that threat. It's a threat that hasn't existed anywhere near enough before tbh. And while the balance needs looking at, I'm glad it's there. 

What do you mean with that threat wasn't there. I thought it was widely acknowledged that FM12 = best ME ever.