Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread

[Tyburn]

6 minutes ago, eye-switcher said:

The Death by set pieces . as soon as you meet a higher reputation club and they cant score from open play the set piece goals are trickling in. its easy 50 percent of  the goals i concede.

If Higher reputation Club hasnt scored by 10 minute then goal from set pieces % will raise by X

Etc.

Should lable the title "FM20 Set Pieces" instead 

I’m not seeing this ...

[eye-switcher]

24 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

I’m not seeing this ...

Congrats, what team and what reputation do your team have?

[JEinchy]

Set-pieces are strong on this year's game, but this has been the case for all versions of the ME. 

My team was so unintentionally good at scoring from set-pieces, my board made "Be strong at set-pieces" a club vision requirement! Which isn't how I like to play at all, but needs must. 

I wonder, though: how many people bother to use the set-piece training sessions? I usually throw in four or five a month, and I get messages during games from my ass. man about how the team is benefiting from the work being done on set-pieces. Coincidentally, the odd month where I get lazy with this is when I start leaking set-piece goals.

So if you're struggling with set-pieces, try doing some training on them and see if that helps at all. I've a feeling this is more important than the actual set-piece routine itself.

[Tyburn]

1 minute ago, eye-switcher said:

Congrats, what team and what reputation do your team have?

Started at Nancy, then moved to Villa and I’m now at Napoli, in the only save I’ve had with FM20. New ME dropped whilst at Napoli. It’s 2026. We’re a 4 star rep club atm.

I’m not scoring many set pieces and I’m not conceding many. Just played Real Madrid away in the Champs league group stages and lost 3-1. They scored a 1v1 and a back post header towards the end of the 1st half and a rocket start of 2nd. I scored a consolation through ball late on.

I’m having a very strong season so far (end of December) and I’m again battling Inter for the title. I’ve lost away to them (1-0 ... a cross and header from open play) and I’ve drawn away to Juve 1-1 (they scored a good move from edge of box). They’ve both got a higher rep than me. I’ve also drawn a few more, but to lower rep opposition.

Napoli are a good team, I’ve worked my way up to managing them, but they’re not the ultimate.

I don’t feel “cheesed” at all at the moment with the ME. Either by the AI or against it.

I do understand others do but, I thought I should share that personally, I’m not seeing it.

Im playing a very simple 4123 tactic.

[Tyburn]

10 hours ago, bahrami said:

Is anyone firmly fixed on getting FM21 as soon as it's released? Serious question, besides an updated database, I really don't see the fuss with the game anymore. Maybe I've just lost interest as the years have gone on but I really can't get into it like in previous years.

Yep.

I only play a network game nowadays and we’re having a blast.

I understand this may not be possible for everyone but now, for me, it’s the ONLY way to play the game.

 

[Weller1980]

1 hour ago, sidslayer said:

I’m not seeing this ...

Simply watch a few Ai vs Ai goals and you will very quickly notice trends.

[Tyburn]

6 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

Simply watch a few Ai vs Ai goals and you will very quickly notice trends.

Yeah, I’m aware of this. But seeing as I don’t play as the AI I don’t see the point.

[Weller1980]

Just now, sidslayer said:

Yeah, I’m aware of this. But seeing as I don’t play as the AI I don’t see the point.

Fair enough, but surly this proves big sections of code within the ME are rotten and therefore isn't right, it sort of ruins the integrity of the game world? I'm not expecting a perfect ME there will always be issues but, the lack of central play and goal variety is a big one for me personally.

Since FM19 we've had big issues with the lack of central play. id love an update from SI on why/how weve got such a problem that hasn't been fixed for two years, and SI haven't really acknowledged it.

I've been a fan and loyal customer since the Amiga days buying PC versions, Ipad version, mobile etc.  I kinda feel as though SI should answer my legimate question as to why we have issues with central play and perhaps whats being done to try and fix it?

I have brought every version on release. Next years version, lets just say I will perhaps try the demo first as ive lost a bit of faith in SI at this point. Don't get me wrong I love the franchise but Ive reached a point where im a bit fed up. 

Im now playing FM18 and having some fun again, so im still getting my FM fix!!! 

[Tyburn]

6 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

Fair enough, but surly this proves big sections of code within the ME are rotten and therefore isn't right, it sort of ruins the integrity of the game world? I'm not expecting a perfect ME there will always be issues but, the lack of central play and goal variety is a big one for me personally.

Since FM19 we've had big issues with the lack of central play. id love an update from SI on why/how weve got such a problem that hasn't been fixed for two years, and SI haven't really acknowledged it.

I've been a fan and loyal customer since the Amiga days buying PC versions, Ipad version, mobile etc.  I kinda feel as though SI should answer my legimate question as to why we have issues with central play and perhaps whats being done to try and fix it?

I have brought every version on release. Next years version, lets just say I will perhaps try the demo first as ive lost a bit of faith in SI at this point. Don't get me wrong I love the franchise but Ive reached a point where im a bit fed up. 

Im now playing FM18 and having some fun again, so im still getting my FM fix!!! 

I don’t dispute you see these issues. Perhaps I don’t because I’m not looking for them? The integrity of the game world isn’t ruined for me because the only thing I’m interested in with AI against AI is the result. I’m not concerned about how the ME gets to it.

Now if I was seeing what you see in MY matches I’d be concerned. But I’m not. 

I’m very confused by this central play issue. What is it that people expect to see? Through balls from my CM to my ST? I see this. Nice build up between my CM’s that goes out wide then back in for a shot or through ball? I see this. One twos between my CM’s? I see this. Of course the ball will end up wide at some point. Utilising and stretching the pitch is intrinsic to any game of football. What is it that is missing? What variety of goals are you not seeing? In your matches, not Ai vs Ai.

[Grateful Dead]

I'm wondering if it's working as intended that the AI coaches load players with PPMs that sometimes are contradicting but also make them unsuitable for roles they're good (just because the stats are good for certain PPMs). Just took over a team in my 8th season, pretty much every MC has "gets forward whenever possible", also many DR/Ls got it. Also one player has "runs with ball down right" AND "cuts inside from both wings". Not to mention the amount of players who seem to be particularly good at "trying killer balls often"...

[SD]

17 minutes ago, Grateful Dead said:

I'm wondering if it's working as intended that the AI coaches load players with PPMs that sometimes are contradicting but also make them unsuitable for roles they're good (just because the stats are good for certain PPMs). Just took over a team in my 8th season, pretty much every MC has "gets forward whenever possible", also many DR/Ls got it. Also one player has "runs with ball down right" AND "cuts inside from both wings". Not to mention the amount of players who seem to be particularly good at "trying killer balls often"...

That is very likely due to mentoring.

Until a few editions ago the AI was not bothering with PPMs and re-training positions, but since last year's edition it goes way overboard.

[Freakiie]

If you look at a lot of older RL players in the FM database, they do tend to have a bunch of PPMs. Kinda makes sense that players pick up a couple of habits over the years. It might need some fine tuning regarding what PPMs are taught to players (I remember every single defender in FM19 being taught to stay back, so even in the extremely rare case you found a FM19 fullback that had capabilities going forward they were often messed up by that PPM), but all in all I'd find it a bit weird to have some 27 yr old in his prime with no PPMs at all. Perhaps they could also make picking up PPMs a bit more natural, where they develop certain habits by playing that way for a while, so a player told to tackle harder might naturally develop the "Dives into tackles" trait.

[likesiamesefish]

2 hours ago, Freakiie said:

Perhaps they could also make picking up PPMs a bit more natural, where they develop certain habits by playing that way for a while, so a player told to tackle harder might naturally develop the "Dives into tackles" trait.

I like the idea of this a lot.

[Weller1980]

3 hours ago, sidslayer said:

I don’t dispute you see these issues. Perhaps I don’t because I’m not looking for them? The integrity of the game world isn’t ruined for me because the only thing I’m interested in with AI against AI is the result. I’m not concerned about how the ME gets to it.

Now if I was seeing what you see in MY matches I’d be concerned. But I’m not. 

I’m very confused by this central play issue. What is it that people expect to see? Through balls from my CM to my ST? I see this. Nice build up between my CM’s that goes out wide then back in for a shot or through ball? I see this. One twos between my CM’s? I see this. Of course the ball will end up wide at some point. Utilising and stretching the pitch is intrinsic to any game of football. What is it that is missing? What variety of goals are you not seeing? In your matches, not Ai vs Ai.

I haven't actually played any games since the ME beta. I assumed watching AI games would give a true indication of how the ME performed, am I wrong? Do you see through balls from AI teams in your games?

Edited February 11, 2020 by Weller1980

[Freakiie]

21 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

I haven't actually played any games since the ME beta. I assumed watching AI games would give a true indication of how the ME performed, am I wrong? Do you see through balls from AI teams in your games?

Why would you consider that the true indication though?

If you ask me, all it tells you is how the AI interacts with this ME. Now, you can definitely argue that that's not working as intended using data from AI vs AI matches. However, arguing that because of this the ME as a whole is broken when players here have shown that you can do a lot in this ME and that with a proper set up a lot of the issues people here complain about can at least be mitigated, if not fully avoided, I'd say it's a bit shortsighted to claim the ME is broken simply by looking at what the AI is doing with it.

[baris28]

I've yet to see short through balls from AMC to centre forward in possession football. There are sure through balls -a bit wide- to inside forwards from deep MC playmaker. If I remember correct FM 2020 blogs talked about improved central play before game was sold . It is improved according to FM'19 for sure. Another problem seems to be deep setpiece  goals. They are common in my game. Argument against no simulation problems for me it is like, In a Napoleonic war game where soldier uniform and regiment names should not be  important.

Edited February 11, 2020 by baris28

[GOODNAME]

So many goals from cornets and free kicks (headers) stop itttt 

[diddydaddydoddy]

8 minutes ago, GOODNAME said:

So many goals from cornets and free kicks (headers) stop itttt 

You're right I had a trumpet score from a indirect free kick and my Inside Trombone couldn't hit a cow's backside with a banjo

Edited February 11, 2020 by diddydaddydoddy

[Tyburn]

59 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

I haven't actually played any games since the ME beta. I assumed watching AI games would give a true indication of how the ME performed, am I wrong? Do you see through balls from AI teams in your games?

Absolutely I do see them. The 1v1 Real scored against me recently came from a midfield through ball.

I don’t doubt there are issues, I’m just not seeing them to such an extent as they’re obvious or ruining the game for me.

Again, watching AI vs AI has no implication on my enjoyment or view of the ME. The only ME I care about is the one being shown to me whilst my team is playing. How my team and tactic looks and works with the ME. I’m not managing the AI teams. And the AI teams I’m up against are not showing me anything that makes me frustrated with the ME or indeed my team and tactic. 

I concede from set pieces occasionally, and crosses and through balls and penalties and worldies. If I didn’t then something would be wrong. But I don’t see any pattern to it. I’m also scoring a good variety of different types of goal, my tactic is producing this. If I set up to primarily score from crosses or 1v1’s, one dimensional stuff, then I’m sure I’d notice this too.

If I was conceding lots of one type of goal I’d look to change something in my tactic. That’s all I could do, right? I’m not going to just pray it stops. There’s a reason it’s happening. But seeing as it’s not, for me, I’ve obviously fluked a strong tactic.

[likesiamesefish]

If I can get my FM to log in to YouTube I have a good example of some midfield play leading to a through ball that my striker ran onto in the box and finished off. No awful defending either, just beat the press with some good passing. Just a blank screen whenever I try to login though, regardless of may resolution or skin.

[BoGdy]

One more confirmation that this year Football Manager is more like set piece manager.

My fullback which is the corner taker from the right side (for inswing) and my taker for freekicks also right side have 21 assists.

He's only 13 at corner taking and free kick taking.

Imagine if i had David Beckham in FM20 ...

I'm curios how many assists Trend Alexander and Robertson had the last season.It's unreal for a left back to have such insane stats in only 25 games.

LE : I play him as a WB(De) in a 4-2-3-1.So not to much assists from crosses.

Edited February 11, 2020 by BoGdy

[Sharkn20]

2 minutes ago, BoGdy said:

One more confirmation that this year Football Manager is more like set piece manager.

My fullback which is the corner taker from the right side (for inswing) and my taker for freekicks also right side have 21 assists.

He's only 13 at corner taking and free kick taking.

Imagine if i had David Beckham in FM20 ...

LE : I play him as a WB(De) in a 4-2-3-1.So not to much assists from crosses.

Lol 21 assists, he is like Michael Laudrup or Andres Iniesta.

[baris28]

What I've read  previously about how match result calculated before hand -don't remember who but previously written by Dev team- is the simulation AI vs AI that much separated from human play I wonder? Surely player has a chance to change outcome of a match more than an AI. Simulation is same for all player and the AI isn't it. Maybe Neil should answer.

[JordanMilly]

11 minutes ago, Sharkn20 said:

Lol 21 assists, he is like Michael Laudrup or Andres Iniesta.

Or Trent Alexander-Arnold and Andy Robertson 

[Tyburn]

20 minutes ago, BoGdy said:

One more confirmation that this year Football Manager is more like set piece manager.

My fullback which is the corner taker from the right side (for inswing) and my taker for freekicks also right side have 21 assists.

He's only 13 at corner taking and free kick taking.

Imagine if i had David Beckham in FM20 ...

I'm curios how many assists Trend Alexander and Robertson had the last season.It's unreal for a left back to have such insane stats in only 25 games.

LE : I play him as a WB(De) in a 4-2-3-1.So not to much assists from crosses.

In fairness 13 for both, at the level you’re playing at, is massive. Regardless, you’ve obviously managed to hit on something with your routines for those sorts of stats. Any chance you could share them?

[BoGdy]

3 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

In fairness 13 for both, at the level you’re playing at, is massive. Regardless, you’ve obviously managed to hit on something with your routines for those sorts of stats. Any chance you could share them?

This is my routine for corners.It's the same from left side.

For free kicks I have the default setup.

I agree that 13 for both are good for the level I am playing at the moment, but I still think this is to much.

Ok, maybe he can cross that ball perfect most of the time, but the finishing from other players is insane.

Edited February 11, 2020 by BoGdy

[Weller1980]

I'm surprised ai vs ai is vastly different to human play and I'm surprised ai playing against humans has an effect on the types of goals scored. From my own oberservations ai v ai I see very little goal variation to the point where I think its not playable. I'm amazed how different people interpret the ME for me it's quite clear, central play is a big missing component to the ME. 

[Tyburn]

1 minute ago, BoGdy said:

This is my routine for corners.It's the same from left side.

For free kicks I have the default setup.

Do you score many flick on’s to the back post? Mixed in with a healthy amount of goals from one of your wall of 3 positioned near the front post?

[BoGdy]

 

6 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

Do you score many flick on’s to the back post? Mixed in with a healthy amount of goals from one of your wall of 3 positioned near the front post?

I think I scored like 3 or 4 goals at the back post.Most of the goals came from my DCR (see screenshot).

He's the guy.

Edited February 11, 2020 by BoGdy

[Tyburn]

Just now, BoGdy said:

I think I scored like 3 or 4 goals at the back post.Most of the goals came from my DCR (see screenshot).

I see. I’ve also seen this set up before somewhere. The poster highlighted that it was important to have someone on the back post to pick up any flick ons, in this case your DCR made, if he wasn’t banging them straight in with his head.

There are many quirks to this game. Last year it was long throw ins ...

Wish I saw the sorts of stats you’re getting from your LB. He’s possessed... 

[Tyburn]

10 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

I'm surprised ai vs ai is vastly different to human play and I'm surprised ai playing against humans has an effect on the types of goals scored. From my own oberservations ai v ai I see very little goal variation to the point where I think its not playable. I'm amazed how different people interpret the ME for me it's quite clear, central play is a big missing component to the ME. 

The types of tactics we humans can create are always going to be different to what the AI creates. Stands to reason what the ME shows us would be different.

[BoGdy]

2 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

I see. I’ve also seen this set up before somewhere. The poster highlighted that it was important to have someone on the back post to pick up any flick ons, in this case your DCR made, if he wasn’t banging them straight in with his head.

There are many quirks to this game. Last year it was long throw ins ...

Wish I saw the sorts of stats you’re getting from your LB. He’s possessed... 

I use this setup from FM17.Always had good results, but after this season I will change it, cuz it seems more like an exploit.

[Weller1980]

Thinking about it, watching ai vs ai should give an accurate interpretation of the ME how else wouls SI test the ME? 

[Tyburn]

7 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

Thinking about it, watching ai vs ai should give an accurate interpretation of the ME how else wouls SI test the ME? 

But the game isn’t played AI vs AI. It’s played by US. I’m sure SI look at it in great detail but I doubt very much they just analyse AI vs AI, as like you’ve pointed out, it doesn’t look particularly pretty.

It’s a base. A blank sheet. SI expect us to add to it, manipulate it, adjust to it. Because most people play the game by managing a team and playing against the AI.

[akkm]

7 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

But the game isn’t played AI vs AI. It’s played by US. I’m sure SI look at it in great detail but I doubt very much they just analyse AI vs AI, as like you’ve pointed out, it doesn’t look particularly pretty.

It’s a base. A blank sheet. SI expect us to add to it, manipulate it, adjust to it. Because most people play the game by managing a team and playing against the AI.

you realise just because you're not seeing certain issues which your use of tactics might just mask underlying issues isn't an implication that the issues aren't there. So just because you're not seeing them is academic to them being a fundamental issue for the integrity of simulation in terms of what the match engine can produce. Whether you don't want to acknowledge them is fine  but they're still there.

What way do you try to get your teams playing just out of interest. The match engine can produce certain styles but not others so you might be just using a style that the match engine has a bias towards...it could be that simple

[JEinchy]

Watching AI vs AI will only give you a limited view of the what the ME is capable of because the AI has a fixed number of combinations it uses depending on the scenario, whereas the human player can be a lot more creative. 

For example, most AI teams will play defensively when it considers itself the underdog. To do that, it selects a low mentality and a high number of defensive roles. The human player, on the other hand, can play aggressively because they want to catch teams out. Hence, a human player can win the league with a team predicted to finish last, whereas the chances of the AI doing that are incredibly small. 

What this tells us is that if the AI cannot do something the player can do, then it's not using the tools available to it properly. So if you watch an AI vs AI match and see a lack of central player and through passes, it's more likely to do with how the teams have been set-up than it is with defects in the ME. 

[Tyburn]

Just now, akkm said:

you realise just because you're not seeing certain issues which your use of tactics might just mask underlying issues isn't an implication that the issues aren't there. So just because you're not seeing them is academic to them being a fundamental issue for the integrity of simulation in terms of what the match engine can produce. Whether you don't want to acknowledge them is fine  but they're still there.

What way do you try to get your teams playing just out of interest. The match engine can produce certain styles but not others so you might be just using a style that the match engine has a bias towards...it could be that simple

This is a good point. I’ve stated that I do not deny there are issues. I’ve seen them myself in FM20. I know they are there, but as you rightly point out, tactics can and do mitigate them.

I’ve answered it further back in the thread but I’m playing a very simple (in fact deliberately simple) 4123. I start nearly all games on a cautious mentality with a lower line of engagement and a standard defensive line. I often switch it up to positive. I use CM(auto) on both my CM’s, DM(s) for my CDM deliberately so that there are no PI’s at all. I let my players play their game using only their traits. I also use WB(auto) for both my FB’s so that when I adjust my mentality I have 4 players that act as my heartbeat. My front 3 are a W(a), IW(a) and I change the role of my ST game by game. But all 3 of my forwards I leave as they are. No PI’s. This is deliberate. My 2 CB’s are BPD’s again left alone and my FB’s are the only players I have PI’s for. Can’t remember what off the top of my head but nothing unusual. My idea is to draw my opponent in and then hit them on the break with pace and power. I also find that we hold on to the ball outside the area very well looking for an opening against teams that park the bus. Sometimes a through ball, sometimes a cross. We wait for an opening.

I’m no tactical genius but the issues being discussed I am just not seeing by playing like this. I’m seeing hardly any cheese at all. Either for me or against.

[Quadrophenia88]

Personally I find this years match engine the most infuriating yet. Don't get me wrong, I've had many successful saves on this years edition so far, whether it be promotions, league titles or domestic cups. However watching the match engine this year has been so painful that have found myself almost wanting to go to commentary only like the good old days.

The amount of shockingly poor goals I have seen go against me and go for me is laughable. We're not talking individual errors, we're talking shockingly unrealistic moments (again for and against) which make it very hard to watch. On top of this, I have found that the majority of the goals since the patch (for and against) seem to come from set pieces and long shots despite numerous attempts to change the formation or style.

It also seems that they have not really fixed the one on one issue, still missing way more than personally I think any striker should but I have noticed the CCC are down, it seems that they just reduced what counts as a CCC rather than fixing the conversation rate. Plus my wingers are still running down and taking shots from angles with a 0% scoring chance rather than making the clear and simple open pass for a tap in, so that doesn't really seem to be fixed either.

I'm not hating on the game or saying it's too difficult because as I say, these have went for me as well as against me and I've still managed to have success but to watch, this ME makes it incredibly difficult not to turn it off after 5 or 6 games and come back another night.

Like others have stated, I will for the first time in many of years, not pre-order the game and see the state of the ME before diving in and spending any money.

[dannysheard]

2 hours ago, akkm said:

you realise just because you're not seeing certain issues which your use of tactics might just mask underlying issues isn't an implication that the issues aren't there. So just because you're not seeing them is academic to them being a fundamental issue for the integrity of simulation in terms of what the match engine can produce. Whether you don't want to acknowledge them is fine  but they're still there.

What way do you try to get your teams playing just out of interest. The match engine can produce certain styles but not others so you might be just using a style that the match engine has a bias towards...it could be that simple

This. The game seems fundamentally unbalanced this year, so some people stumble upon tactics that don’t seem to have overly ‘game-breaking’ issues and argue that the game is ‘fine’.

Others, by choosing perfectly reasonable tactics that unbeknownst to them unbalance the game, encounter what they feel are unplayable issues.

As an example, intensive pressing overpowers the AI, without the game adequately modelling fatigue to reduce its effectiveness. Corners to the near post get too many goals.

It feels like we’re trying to pretend Monopoly is an accurate representation of managing a property portfolio, and we get excited when it gets a new box every year. The ME doesn’t appear fit for purpose this year.

[szp]

Is it a known issue, that my wide players ALWAYS cross the ball to long post? It is really annoying. My fullbacks and my wingers all have PI's "cross to near post", I have TI "low crosses". But it looks like it doesn't matter - they constantly making long, float crosses. If the game doesn't care about the instructions I make in tactics screen, can I call it a bug? Or is it just "my tactics"? 

[dannysheard]

6 minutes ago, szp said:

Is it a known issue, that my wide players ALWAYS cross the ball to long post? It is really annoying. My fullbacks and my wingers all have PI's "cross to near post", I have TI "low crosses". But it looks like it doesn't matter - they constantly making long, float crosses. If the game doesn't care about the instructions I make in tactics screen, can I call it a bug? Or is it just "my tactics"? 

It's been a known issue for about five years now.

[FM1000]

Let me start by saying i just bought the game. I expected a vast improvement from FM19. It is not. The ME i mean all other parts of the game are less important. The Messi clone i made with the editor for my Serie B side is a top scorer as an IF, but half of his goals are headers. Headers. Imagine Messi scoring 20 headers a season?!?!?

The problem is that instead of attributes affecting everything in the ME it is calculated with hard coded constants. I am coder myself so i think i have a vague idea how the ME works, or maybe i dont it does not matter. The explanation from SI staff about the ME bugs are always "IRL Football has a clear cut chance finishing rate of about {insert a number here} and we have something similar in the ME", or any other combination of that statement. 

1. The statistics in FM are wrong

  Many occurrences count as a CC 's for example but they are not or the other way around. Deflections counted as through balls in the middle as other users have pointed out, and many other things like for exp the actual game time of football in the ME is a lot shorter then an actual football match.

2. Football Manager 2020 or any other version is NOT a simulation

 Maybe it will be in 20 years with the rise of AI but not right now. If it was a simulation nobody would be able to win the title with any club even Liverpool or keep their team from relegation because, erm we are not football managers. Except maybe like 10 people. AI Guardiola or Pep would destroy any regular "gamer". If it was a simulation I could ask my team to play in any way i want, for example i may want my striker to push the line when we dont have the ball and drop way back to left midfield when we have the ball, but i cant. Because it is not a simulation.

So why cant we just have fun with the game? I am fine with scores being higher if it means my players behave like normal football players, doing things as i tell them and as their attributes suggest instead of a 160 midget with 8 for heading scoring 20 goals with his head. Or the same midget with 20 finishing missing 5 100% chances in a row, or my Iniesta in the middle with 20 vision, passing etc, cant play a through ball to my striker in the middle to save his life. Stop trying to compare IRL football statistics to FM it will never be the same, just make the ME seem realistic even if the stats are not the same as IRL football. 

 

 

[akkm]

4 hours ago, sidslayer said:

This is a good point. I’ve stated that I do not deny there are issues. I’ve seen them myself in FM20. I know they are there, but as you rightly point out, tactics can and do mitigate them.

I’ve answered it further back in the thread but I’m playing a very simple (in fact deliberately simple) 4123. I start nearly all games on a cautious mentality with a lower line of engagement and a standard defensive line. I often switch it up to positive. I use CM(auto) on both my CM’s, DM(s) for my CDM deliberately so that there are no PI’s at all. I let my players play their game using only their traits. I also use WB(auto) for both my FB’s so that when I adjust my mentality I have 4 players that act as my heartbeat. My front 3 are a W(a), IW(a) and I change the role of my ST game by game. But all 3 of my forwards I leave as they are. No PI’s. This is deliberate. My 2 CB’s are BPD’s again left alone and my FB’s are the only players I have PI’s for. Can’t remember what off the top of my head but nothing unusual. My idea is to draw my opponent in and then hit them on the break with pace and power. I also find that we hold on to the ball outside the area very well looking for an opening against teams that park the bus. Sometimes a through ball, sometimes a cross. We wait for an opening.

I’m no tactical genius but the issues being discussed I am just not seeing by playing like this. I’m seeing hardly any cheese at all. Either for me or against.

yeah I think reasonable stuff there tactically and especially as you say playing cautious lower line of engagement means you'd see as you say you drawing opponent and hitting them on the break with pace and power..that will leave space behind which is essentially what the engine needs to be able to produce more open play goals in a manner which is kind of what you'd expect and like to see with those tactics so it would look normal. That would definitely explain why you're not seeing the issues others are.

I think what @Weller1980 and others are trying style wise is different with attempts to play more controlled slower tempo possession based game where space is more condensed and creating chances and goals is then more reliant on their teams players skills such as vision, technique, passing, movement, off the ball, decisions, agility and all that but that's the real issue. These are underutilised with the engine and the value of them is way too low to determine outcomes in terms of style of play...essentially the match engine isn't currently simulating creativity and the tools to unlock defences is fairly severely lacking and that's why you see so many complaints...all of which are justified...pass decision making isn't executing choices to mirror how things work in real world football...there's too much of a bias towards passes out into large spaces usually out wide or from deep and often when there are better options inside and shorter. Yeah it's harder of course but not as hard as FM depicts it and as said when pass decision making isn't right then it just exacerbates the issue. Complementary movement is then required as pass decision making gets the crucial bump that's needed but pass decision making is the starting point and the fundamental issue which needs a lot of work to enable multiple styles of play to be attempted and subsequently rewarded in the right way...the frustrating thing with attempting to play centrally is the patterns become too repetitive and the chance creation and goals become too disconnected to the inputs tactically and that's because the engine just cannot play that way properly in a consistent or sustainted way. Of course there'll be intermittent moves/goals/chances which are great but they're more anomalous to the overall attempted style which basically deems it pointless to attempt that way of playing. So really a fundamentally significant way of playing is missing from the engine for the last two years so people's frustrations despite SIs best efforts are warranted. It really needs to be addressed asap.

It's great that your way works and you're getting the most out of it and enjoying it but obviously it needs to cater for most and ideally all ways of playing at least to be attempted and then let the relative success be determined by quality of players and use of tactics to get the most out of said players. That way the engines simulation of real world football would be on point

[witticism]

Here's how fm20 is going for me:

my lb is my assist leader, because reasons

Also for all my direct passing they sure love to dwell on the ball and try to walk into the box

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by witticism
formatting

[thejay]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb akkm:

yeah I think reasonable stuff there tactically and especially as you say playing cautious lower line of engagement means you'd see as you say you drawing opponent and hitting them on the break with pace and power..that will leave space behind which is essentially what the engine needs to be able to produce more open play goals in a manner which is kind of what you'd expect and like to see with those tactics so it would look normal. That would definitely explain why you're not seeing the issues others are.

I think what @Weller1980 and others are trying style wise is different with attempts to play more controlled slower tempo possession based game where space is more condensed and creating chances and goals is then more reliant on their teams players skills such as vision, technique, passing, movement, off the ball, decisions, agility and all that but that's the real issue. These are underutilised with the engine and the value of them is way too low to determine outcomes in terms of style of play...essentially the match engine isn't currently simulating creativity and the tools to unlock defences is fairly severely lacking and that's why you see so many complaints...all of which are justified...pass decision making isn't executing choices to mirror how things work in real world football...there's too much of a bias towards passes out into large spaces usually out wide or from deep and often when there are better options inside and shorter. Yeah it's harder of course but not as hard as FM depicts it and as said when pass decision making isn't right then it just exacerbates the issue. Complementary movement is then required as pass decision making gets the crucial bump that's needed but pass decision making is the starting point and the fundamental issue which needs a lot of work to enable multiple styles of play to be attempted and subsequently rewarded in the right way...the frustrating thing with attempting to play centrally is the patterns become too repetitive and the chance creation and goals become too disconnected to the inputs tactically and that's because the engine just cannot play that way properly in a consistent or sustainted way. Of course there'll be intermittent moves/goals/chances which are great but they're more anomalous to the overall attempted style which basically deems it pointless to attempt that way of playing. So really a fundamentally significant way of playing is missing from the engine for the last two years so people's frustrations despite SIs best efforts are warranted. It really needs to be addressed asap.

It's great that your way works and you're getting the most out of it and enjoying it but obviously it needs to cater for most and ideally all ways of playing at least to be attempted and then let the relative success be determined by quality of players and use of tactics to get the most out of said players. That way the engines simulation of real world football would be on point

I agree completely but it isn't some obscure style that only some people play. 

 

Half the standard tactics in the tactic creator don't work. 

 

Control possession, tiki taka, vertical tiki taka, you can all throw them in the bin. 

 

Vertical tiki taka is the worst, absolutely impossible to play with a focus through the midfield. 

 

I don't really understand that people claim the game works as advertised when I'd evidently does not, as seem in the ineffectiveness of default tactics. 

 

But maybe they do work but work as in you get set piece goals and second chances to a very high degree for some reason, but they don't work  as in the tactics actually creating chances as intended. 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by thejay

[baris28]

Absolutely, I don't mind tactical creator should be limited for some team instructions if they don't work in a simulated game just before match. Or maybe a warning to players of tiki taka and AMC position is abounded todays football in game. Need athlete in wing positions to do the same job. Which is correct.

Edited February 12, 2020 by baris28

[Tyburn]

@akkm great post. Well explained.

So ... some of us think the ME is ok. Some (most it would seem) of us hate it. Some of us accept it’s a game. Some of us expect it to be real. Some of us play the game in a way that we know the game can handle. Some of us continue to bang our heads into a wall.

In an ideal world the game would cater for all philosophy’s equally. I never doubted that the game doesn’t. I know it doesn’t. I also know that I want to enjoy the game for what the game is. So I’ve got a tactic(s) that give me that. I’ve never played this type of tactic on FM before, as the one I’m playing now. But it’s working, it looks good and it’s balanced.

It’s a game. It has limitations. To keep playing the same way and getting frustrated by it makes no sense to me.

Give SI constructive feedback, absolutely. But telling and showing them the faults over and over again, as if that’s all the ME has to offer is false. To say the ME is broken is false.

I strongly disagree that multiple tactics don’t work or make the game look crazy. Each tactical style can be made to work, to a certain extent, but some are more realistically shown by the ME than others. Some require huge amounts of effort to get right and to look realistic. Others less so. It’s a game. It has limitations.

There are plenty of tactics that work, look fairly realistic and don’t cheese the game. And there are of course tactics that do the opposite. It’s our choice how we want to play the game.

[likesiamesefish]

I don't mind the ME personally but it's pretty irrefutable that it's in a bad way which is why it's had to be patched so much, have it's own beta release and then get a Feb patch before the proper transfers update. I don't remember this happening before.

24 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

There are plenty of tactics that work, look fairly realistic and don’t cheese the game. And there are of course tactics that do the opposite. It’s our choice how we want to play the game.

Most people's idea of the ME working is the tactics being successfully implemented and there being a clear visual representation of that in the ME. To say 'it's our choice how we want to play the game' is actually not true according to the rest of your post, particularly when you say that you are using a tactic which you have never wanted to use before but have developed due to the limitations of the ME. Do you think that is the product that SI advertise and strive to release? It isn't. People aren't forcing higher standards on SI, you obviously just have a lower bar of expectations for the game than everyone else.

I get what you're saying about not playing the game if you find it frustrating but the same could be said for reading the FM20 feedback thread on the official forum and getting frustrated at people having a rant about their experience on the game. This is exactly the place for it to be fair and SI will quickly delete anything they consider abusive anyway.

[Steve8066]

On 10/02/2020 at 22:58, bahrami said:

Is anyone firmly fixed on getting FM21 as soon as it's released? Serious question, besides an updated database, I really don't see the fuss with the game anymore. Maybe I've just lost interest as the years have gone on but I really can't get into it like in previous years.

nope, 20 is the last i will ever pay full price for as the game is simply never ready when its actually released. Id rather wait until its on special on Steam even if its 12 months later as at least by then, most issues will have been sorted (if SI actual decide to fix them).

[Tyburn]

31 minutes ago, likesiamesefish said:

I don't mind the ME personally but it's pretty irrefutable that it's in a bad way which is why it's had to be patched so much, have it's own beta release and then get a Feb patch before the proper transfers update. I don't remember this happening before.

Most people's idea of the ME working is the tactics being successfully implemented and there being a clear visual representation of that in the ME. To say 'it's our choice how we want to play the game' is actually not true according to the rest of your post, particularly when you say that you are using a tactic which you have never wanted to use before but have developed due to the limitations of the ME. Do you think that is the product that SI advertise and strive to release? It isn't. People aren't forcing higher standards on SI, you obviously just have a lower bar of expectations for the game than everyone else.

I get what you're saying about not playing the game if you find it frustrating but the same could be said for reading the FM20 feedback thread on the official forum and getting frustrated at people having a rant about their experience on the game. This is exactly the place for it to be fair and SI will quickly delete anything they consider abusive anyway.

It is my choice to adapt the way i play, which is exactly what i said. My expectations are based on years of playing the game. I know what to expect. It's no different to what it always is. As close a representation of football as can be currently achieved, with flaws. The flaws this year seem to be hugely highlighted granted. But it's the same as every year. Some tactics work, others don't.

It's not about being abusive. It's about putting an argument together that makes some sort of rational sense. The ME is not broken. It has flaws. Certain tactics work. Others not so much. Some tactics create crazy ME quirks. Others don't. It's not about not playing the game. It's about adapting to what we've been given so that some enjoyment can be had from it. Rather than repeatedly getting frustrated by the limitations of the ME, there are ways to work with it.

Again, we should absolutely give our feedback. But when the feedback is simply "this ME is broken" I feel obliged to point out the fact that it isn't, tactics are complicated but can be made to work and we have multiple choices as to how we work with what we've got. For a more pleasurable experience.