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FMT/Classic Editor - The Discussion

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So... here we are again. From the quote from @Neil Brock there will be no editor for FMT 20. Yet again we are left without an editor. 7 years waiting and counting... I think it is about time, that we have a proper discussion about FMT editor. Here is the quote from @Neil Brock in another thread:

Quote

 

Whilst we appreciate the passion and opinion of users in regards to Football Manager Touch, this thread is to discuss the current features announced for Football Manager Touch 2020. 

The editor has been discussed in the past - with the current vision for how Touch works there are no plans to add an editor for it. It's designed to be quicker, simpler version of Football Manager and at this time there are no plans to add this functionality in. 

Considering this game is not just on PC/Mac, but also across Tablet and Switch there are considerations that need to be made for all three versions to keep them aligned. We appreciate that there is frustration with this, which was made clear via this thread and will be fed back to the creative director and those that work on Touch.

If people could please keep this thread on topic moving forward. If you wish to discuss an editor for Touch the place to raise it is within the Feature Request forums (which will be swept before the end of the year), but do bear in mind it is something we've discussed numerous times internally and this is the approach we currently want to take.

Thanks. 

 

Sorry Neil, but I feel i need to say something here, which is bothering me.

Can you tell me if there are considerations that are made for all three versions of FMT (PC/Mac and tablet/Ipad and Switch), to keep them aligned, then why is SI and the Creative Director and those that work on Touch, have add the option to turn off the 3 nation limit for the PC/Mac and not other platforms? If the that limit was there due to hardware restrictions, why add something to Mac/PC, when it still cannot be done on the other two platforms? This option to remove the 3 nation limit was no issue to add in one of those three platforms and was no issue to not keep them aligned. I do wonder why is the editor so different?

Edited by grade

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Honestly, I prefer FM Touch more than full version of FM because of simplicity - FM Touch reminds me on older versions of the game which are without  tons of  unnecessary features IMO...

But...

I don't play FM Touch. Why? Because I can't use custom databases and I'm stuck with full version which takes too much of my time... Many years ago there wasn't FM Touch only FM, on various platforms too, but Data Editor was available at least to PC version of the game... And in that aspect, game "wasn't aligned"...

I don't why we have "feature requests" threads, when some requests (like this one) are ignored for years...

Edited by Luke Cro

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The touch users are treated like the red headed step children of Football Manager. The no editor is an embarassment to be honest, its nearly 2020 and yet we are unable to keep a game up to date 😂 

They strive for realism but not everyone can sink the hours into the full version.

Why cant even a stand alone pre game editor be made? Id pay extra for it.

 

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How else are they going to sell DLC though? That's the reason we don't have an editor, whether it's denied or not. Clearly they are making enough from the micro-transactions to not want to add an editor.

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4 hours ago, craiigman said:

How else are they going to sell DLC though? That's the reason we don't have an editor, whether it's denied or not. Clearly they are making enough from the micro-transactions to not want to add an editor.

Sell the pre game editor ad a stand alone purchase, make it the price of all the DLC, people will still pay it.

We are all here because we love the game, kost of us play touch because we have less time and want to play quicker, but we dont want to play an inferior product

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Another point for the editor is important.

Without the editor we have to wait for SI to make the update of Jose Mourinho being the new Tottenham manager. Which we don't know how long we would get this update. 

When with the editor I could easily, make that update myself, until Si makes this release.

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I have put all of these comments on other threads and had them deleted by the mods, also been accused of generating negative false news, so I would suggest your beating a drum they will continue to ignore.  FMT is a revenue stream to help fund the main game, they could make the full game customisable so that it plays like FMT and we could have an editor, at least for the PC version, then just keep FMT for consoles / android / iOS...  but as I said they have ignored us for what 6 year!!!

I would suggest the best way to get some of the editor functions into FMT is to poll people for what they want and exclude anything which is currently making them money, i.e. giving yourself loads of cash.

So for me I use it to update player positions the most, its quicker than re-training and FMT is meant to be a quicker version of the game, but also its down to the minimal database of players in FMT, so amending their main position and then still using the training function to help improve the skills for that position is quicker.  I also to use it to correct player attributes like footedness but not the attributes like shooting as that, in my opionion, is cheated...  I don't want to cheap.

So maybe start a poll, include anything outside of the lockables and see what happens next year...  but I wouldnt bother with the "we want an editor as per FM" it just isnt going to happen.

 

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Jesus christ lads, I'm a full up card carrying member of the FMT Editor brigade. But don't start going down conspiracy theory routes.

The aim should be to make a compelling argument. It's not currently part of the design philosophy of FMT, the point of contention has to be thinking of a persuasive argument that also fits with what FMT is supposed to be. 

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49 minutes ago, santy001 said:

Jesus christ lads, I'm a full up card carrying member of the FMT Editor brigade. But don't start going down conspiracy theory routes.

The aim should be to make a compelling argument. It's not currently part of the design philosophy of FMT, the point of contention has to be thinking of a persuasive argument that also fits with what FMT is supposed to be. 

What FMT is meant to be, you mean "a quicker version of the game for people who don't have time to play the full version" surely an editor fits with that philosophy more than the full game!!!

As discussed it is technically possible as there are external editors which work with FMT, it has been requested since the first FMT version, fits with the philosophy as you put it, etc etc.  If I was to search for how many times someone has raised "can we have an FMT editor" in comparison to how many people asked for an unlockable to bring through an exciting crop of youngers, I am sure I can guess which would win, that type of aspect is a full game feature, not for a stripped down version, pretty much like all of the enhancements this year.

Like my post says, they will not give us an editor while there is revenue to be made, so asking for one is pointless, ask for something similar that does not impact on their revenue stream and you will have a chance...  and if the mods had not deleted my previous posts due to "fake news" you would have read that I accept that is part of the game, look at Konami imagine how much they have had to pay to get an exclusive licence for Juventus, hence we now have to play as Zebre, everyone knows that FM have similar costs and putting up the RRP of the game is not feesible, so addons like in FMT and the in-game editor in FM, as well as the expansion into Google stadia helps and makes more business sense.

Its not conspiracy its basic common sense, they have to make X money, pricing people out of the main game reducing sales, reduces chat about the game etc, so addons make business sense.  Look at Google Stadia £119 for a controller and chromecast, cheap in comparison to other console type platforms, but you have to subscribe £8.99 per month, the initial bit looks attractive, but the back end cost is where the extra revenue is generated, there will be a free version at some point next year, but by then people will want to full perks of Stadia Premium.

So as per my point...  don't ask a business to lose revenue, ask the business to provide more functions that are agreeable.

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1 hour ago, santy001 said:

Jesus christ lads, I'm a full up card carrying member of the FMT Editor brigade. But don't start going down conspiracy theory routes.

The aim should be to make a compelling argument. It's not currently part of the design philosophy of FMT, the point of contention has to be thinking of a persuasive argument that also fits with what FMT is supposed to be. 

How to exactly do a compelling argument, if in the past there be several threads about it? From we want an editor, to we demand an editor... I even created, what... 4 or 5 years ago a thread about how people use the editor for it. There was some people posting in it, but a side from Lucas (which at the time was part of SI Team), there was no post from anyone from SI. Not that I felt it was mandatory from anyone at SI responded to in that thread or any thread (which is now more common then before). Expecting a positive thread about it, would be sufficient enough to compel to SI change their decision. What exactly happen? We aren't any close to an editor, then we were before that thread or any thread talking and insisting about it.

But I feel this is probably the last year, I try to make an effort to push for an editor. After 6 or 7 years, my patience trying to convince the heads and people at SI the importance of an editor for FMT is running low. Specially if I take literally Neil's reply above (which from Neil I take always literally), we can forget the editor for the next two to three versions, since as we all know, SI plans future versions always plans ahead. If Neil says there is not plans for editor, then there is no editor plans for the next two to three versions. :( Which is shame. But from me I will no bug anyone at SI or here in these forums, about it in the coming years.

I'm literally fed up of insisting this.

Edited by grade

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20 minutes ago, grade said:

How to exactly do a compelling argument, if in the past there be several threads about it? From we want an editor, to we demand an editor... I even created, what... 4 or 5 years ago a thread about how people use the editor for it. There was some people posting in it, but a side from Lucas (which at the time was part of SI Team), there was no post from anyone from SI. Not that I felt it was mandatory from anyone at SI responded to in that thread or any thread (which is now more common then before). Expecting a positive thread about it, would be sufficient enough to compel to SI change their decision. What exactly happen? We aren't any close to an editor, then we were before that thread or any thread talking and insisting about it.

But I feel this is probably the last year, I try to make an effort to push for an editor. After 6 or 7 years, my patience trying to convince the heads and people at SI the importance of an editor for FMT is running low. Specially if I take literally Neil's reply above (which from Neil I take always literally), we can forget the editor for the next two to three versions, since as we all know, SI plans future versions always plans ahead. If Neil says there is not plans for editor, then there is no editor plans for the next two to three versions. :( Which is shame. But from me I will no bug anyone at SI or here in these forums, about it in the coming years.

I'm literally fed up of insisting this.

I might be wrong but didnt you do a post about what people actually use the editor for, you just need something like that again, so like I said for me it is player positions mainly due to the time it takes to train each position and down to the database size...  and position changes don't affect the unlockables, so try that.

What do you use it for?  If it is giving yourself loads of money then that is out, if it is attribute changes then maybe you might have a chance, clearing injuries is another I tend to use at the start of the season, not during as I think that is cheating, but that goes against the magic sponge so I would not expect that to happen.

So maybe try a poll of "what would you use an FMT editor to do" and see what you get back.

Edited by edhdurham

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1 hour ago, edhdurham said:

I might be wrong but didnt you do a post about what people actually use the editor for, you just need something like that again, so like I said for me it is player positions mainly due to the time it takes to train each position and down to the database size...  and position changes don't affect the unlockables, so try that.

What do you use it for?  If it is giving yourself loads of money then that is out, if it is attribute changes then maybe you might have a chance, clearing injuries is another I tend to use at the start of the season, not during as I think that is cheating, but that goes against the magic sponge so I would not expect that to happen.

So maybe try a poll of "what would you use an FMT editor to do" and see what you get back.

I like fantasy leagues.

Like, making fictional teams for the USA Pro/Rel type system and Portuguese Leagues that are more like the english ones. Like playing a World Champions League, much like Dallan's or making a yearly World Cup, instead of 4 years straight. Things like that.

For the thread I created here it is. It was created in 2014 and since its 5 year anniversary of the creation of that thread, nothing changed. Guess it takes much more then a 3 page thread to convince them.

 

Edited by grade

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Another year, another letdown....must be getting used to it by now....I have played FM/CM since 1992, but more and more I find myself hesitant to pick up newer versions these days. I appreciate Neil clearly stating they want to take the game in another direction. Which is fine. It is their product, and they are entitled to follow their design visions...but then just dont fill us with PR BS of listening to the userbase :) Because this is clearly not the case in this regard. 

 

For an editor I believe there are two very distinct use  cases:

- People who wants pre-game editors allowing for creating custom databases/leagues

- People who wants to edit save games, i.e. removing injuries, changing positions, giving money etc. 

The latter already have plenty of options from third party save game editors. The former is what I believe most of the people wanting a FMT editor want....at least those pushing for it year after year :). The pregame editor also does not as heavily influence unlockables as the save-game editor.

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13 minutes ago, caz said:

I appreciate Neil clearly stating they want to take the game in another direction. Which is fine. It is their product, and they are entitled to follow their design visions...but then just dont fill us with PR BS of listening to the userbase :) Because this is clearly not the case in this regard. 

Let's just clear one thing up - listening isn't the same as doing what you're told. They ARE listening. They are not implementing it for the reasons given. That may change, of course, but Neil has given SI's stance on it at this time.

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2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Let's just clear one thing up - listening isn't the same as doing what you're told. They ARE listening. They are not implementing it for the reasons given. That may change, of course, but Neil has given SI's stance on it at this time.

Again, no doubt that SI does listen. They only implement the request features, if it aligns with their vision for FM and FMT and FMM, if those not, you can completely forget about it (ex.: Chairman Mode). Unfortunately, the editor is not part of SI vision for FMT. For reasons that was states here before or for reasons users here like to believe.

I believe, we are not going to see the editor, for at least the next 3 years. My pessimistic side believe that probably I no doubt if we are going to see the editor on FMT. I mean with all the features that the current editor has. The FMT editor will be a light version for the tablet and Ipad. For PC and MAC I believe more likely for these platforms for FMT to end, then to see an FMT editor  for Mac and PC.

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There's some degrees of editor included with FMT in the create a club option. You can move players (albeit to one club and on a budget system) and you can alter some aspects typically only associated with the editor (minimum attendance etc) so for me the point is to look at which of this seems transferable and how to put the idea at the right pitch.

Ultimately though, if you come into it with a cynical "Well you guys are never going to listen, but I want this" then it doesn't really hurt your position but it makes it a lot less likely to be engaged with in conversation.

- - -

There's a big argument against an editor for FMT, a couple in fact. The different platforms FMT features on are a big issue, the time/cost to develop a solution to this vs the actual use it will see is another. Accepting the reasons provided and thinking of what other reasons you can as to why it shouldn't happen allows you to better argue why it should.

One way in which I could see there being the option for edited files to be included is a suggestion I've made in the past. FM should become somewhat more modular, or perhaps like the rules set in Crusader Kings 2 where you can choose the configuration of certain aspects. Do you want your scouting to be Full FM scouting or FMT scouting? I believe the future of the game is letting players mix-and-match which parts of the game they wish to fully engage with and those they do not with more locked options as the hardware gets less and less powerful. 

I'd argue in the interim the ability to move players between teams and have edited league files would be a good starting point. Even the leagues itself gets tricky, but it kind of borrows from some of what is already included in the game with Create a Club and Fantasy Draft. 

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4 hours ago, santy001 said:

There's some degrees of editor included with FMT in the create a club option. You can move players (albeit to one club and on a budget system) and you can alter some aspects typically only associated with the editor (minimum attendance etc) so for me the point is to look at which of this seems transferable and how to put the idea at the right pitch.

Ultimately though, if you come into it with a cynical "Well you guys are never going to listen, but I want this" then it doesn't really hurt your position but it makes it a lot less likely to be engaged with in conversation.

- - -

There's a big argument against an editor for FMT, a couple in fact. The different platforms FMT features on are a big issue, the time/cost to develop a solution to this vs the actual use it will see is another. Accepting the reasons provided and thinking of what other reasons you can as to why it shouldn't happen allows you to better argue why it should.

One way in which I could see there being the option for edited files to be included is a suggestion I've made in the past. FM should become somewhat more modular, or perhaps like the rules set in Crusader Kings 2 where you can choose the configuration of certain aspects. Do you want your scouting to be Full FM scouting or FMT scouting? I believe the future of the game is letting players mix-and-match which parts of the game they wish to fully engage with and those they do not with more locked options as the hardware gets less and less powerful. 

I'd argue in the interim the ability to move players between teams and have edited league files would be a good starting point. Even the leagues itself gets tricky, but it kind of borrows from some of what is already included in the game with Create a Club and Fantasy Draft. 

I'm not going to debate if what the iPads and Tablets can manage an editor or not. SI is far better position then any of us to figure if can handle it or not. Any sort of debate in this regard is pure speculation.

Also you have to understand, this is a conversation that we trying to have for almost 7 years. Some years was with Lucas when he was part of SI, but the last few years the only engagement we had was few days ago with Neil's reply. Which is not really a conversation, but an official statement from SI. So after all this, there is bound to have some levels of impatience, anger and cynicism involved. We try to say at SI, it will be great inclusion for FMT, even if it is for few years in one platform of the three. I given the examples how this worked with the optional button of the 3 nation limit that is only available for the PC and Mac Platform.

The more time passes and no editor, i think the effort is to make full FM more modular. That I agree with you. The full FM several parts of the management can be assigned to your staff. Do not want to handle press conferences send the assistant. But the problem for me with full FM, it still too slow to process a season and still too micromanagement involved. The day FM is as you described, it's not there yet and it would take some time to be ready to bring FMT gamers into it. The difference between us is that your are saying it is okay to patiently waiting for that day to come, if it means waiting to come next year, two years, five years or ten years. We waited for nearly 7 years, what another ten means for us, right? What i'm saying it is far from okay to wait that long.

Edited by grade

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To be honest...if possible the best solution have always been to have full fat FM being completely modular. However that IS a pain to complete, since you would have to make sure every possible configuration of "selectable features" works correctly, have no unforeseen dependencies, and/or does not have imbalances where it is always good/bad to use it. 

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14 hours ago, caz said:

To be honest...if possible the best solution have always been to have full fat FM being completely modular. However that IS a pain to complete, since you would have to make sure every possible configuration of "selectable features" works correctly, have no unforeseen dependencies, and/or does not have imbalances where it is always good/bad to use it. 

I think this is how it will go, no more FMT on the PC and leave it as a console type game, they might even strip FMT down further and merge that with the mobile game, if they can strip it down enough to play on the lower end phones / devices...  that way they have 2 versions which will be easier to maintain.

But yes it will make the setup at the start of every game much longer.

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2 hours ago, edhdurham said:

I think this is how it will go, no more FMT on the PC and leave it as a console type game, they might even strip FMT down further and merge that with the mobile game, if they can strip it down enough to play on the lower end phones / devices...  that way they have 2 versions which will be easier to maintain.

But yes it will make the setup at the start of every game much longer.

Unless that type of setup is set when you create your manager looks, before the game starts. Save these into different type of characters.

Not sure, how will SI will make full FM, faster as it currently is.

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That part is relatively easy solvable for the majority of the users by having pre-defines feature templates.

The easiest example would be to have "Full fat" and "FM touch" feature templates, with a button next to it, taking you to a screen where you can enable/disable all modules. For the majority the templates are sufficient, and if not, you take a little time to change it (and save it as your custom playstyle for later games).

 

However making the game modular might be a quite daunting project depending on the features inter-dependencies.

 

 

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On 22/11/2019 at 22:57, caz said:

That part is relatively easy solvable for the majority of the users by having pre-defines feature templates.

The easiest example would be to have "Full fat" and "FM touch" feature templates, with a button next to it, taking you to a screen where you can enable/disable all modules. For the majority the templates are sufficient, and if not, you take a little time to change it (and save it as your custom playstyle for later games).

 

However making the game modular might be a quite daunting project depending on the features inter-dependencies.

 

 

But the issue, is that we aren't there yet, I doubt we will ever be there, since the full game is still too micromanagement involved with, even if you delegate almost everything to your staff. The season is painfully and excruciating slow.

Not sure what else to say or do to convince SI other wise. The last 7 years is a nice way to see how gamers of FMT spectacularly failed to convince SI of this feature.

Edited by grade

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I have been playing full FM and have to say the customisation is much better, or at least easier to understand this year, so to be honest except the talking to players and media every 2 mins its not a million miles away from FMT, but of course with an editor.

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On 27/11/2019 at 15:48, edhdurham said:

I have been playing full FM and have to say the customisation is much better, or at least easier to understand this year, so to be honest except the talking to players and media every 2 mins its not a million miles away from FMT, but of course with an editor.

But the game for me still is very frustrating. Endless mails on inbox, to crawl the game to slow. You have to do this and that, and the interaction is like talking to brick wall, Media messages every 2 minutes, Scouts reports, medical reports and whatever reports you can think of. The game feels like a second job and quite honestly don't like it. Even, the matches are incredibly slow. For me FMT is fun and lighthearted.

But what really annoys in FMT for me is that Juventus has Zebra name and I can't do anything about it, to add to the list why the editor is needed. 

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vor 11 Minuten schrieb grade:

Media messages every 2 minutes, Scouts reports, medical reports and whatever reports you can think of. The game feels like a second job and quite honestly don't like it.

You can delegate next to everything and also set that you don't want response from the staff. The game let you decide how much involved you want to be as a manager. But of course, it's a management simulation game and not an arcade game. 

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6 hours ago, KUBI said:

You can delegate next to everything and also set that you don't want response from the staff. The game let you decide how much involved you want to be as a manager. But of course, it's a management simulation game and not an arcade game. 

It is basically try to make the game runs bit faster, in terms how long the season lasts.

I want a quick season (like FMT) and usefulness of the editor. Since I can't have a FMT with an editor, I'm trying to create the best solution that I can replicate FMT in FM (in terms of fastness process of a season).

If I want to play in an arcade, there is always PES and FIFA, so that is not the issue.

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On 02/12/2019 at 16:43, grade said:

It is basically try to make the game runs bit faster, in terms how long the season lasts.

I want a quick season (like FMT) and usefulness of the editor. Since I can't have a FMT with an editor, I'm trying to create the best solution that I can replicate FMT in FM (in terms of fastness process of a season).

If I want to play in an arcade, there is always PES and FIFA, so that is not the issue.

I have being playing full FM and I have to say despite the customisation it is still full of bloat, so I have come back to FMT and I have a query which is editor'ish related. 

If they say being able to amend the database affects the cross-save, on-line, strategy of the game etc. how come you can now transfers players to any club but at a price!!!  Surely that is just an editor that costs 99p everytime you want to use it, surely this could be extended to tranferring staff and made free or at least a one off cost for multiple changes. 

I can understand that direct editing of the database coud be an issue (which is what I would use it for) but the basic function of people maybe wanting to move Mourinho to Spurs rather than probably having to wait until January for an update, or maybe a player, is actually there it just costs again...  a point I have raised numerous times, when it comes to FMT it is just bult around additional income, this shows that they can create editor like functions but dont want to give them away FOC.

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I found this thread searching around to find out if FMT20 had an editor... question answered.

I played FM and it's incarnations for a very long time -- I've been married for 20 years and certainly played before I was hitched. I got FMM16, and that was very good, but a tad simple, so I got FMT17 and although that gave the feel that too much happened on a dice roll, I put a few 100 hours in. But the one thing it was missing? Yes, an editor. It doesn't even need to be a fully fledged job or, TBH, even included in the base price (charge me more!) , but the ability to move the odd player/manager, add the odd fantasy player, run a few 'what ifs...' or even just edit the kit...

So, thank you -- my question has been answered and I'll be saving my 20 quid for another year.

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21 hours ago, jimmyfitz said:

I found this thread searching around to find out if FMT20 had an editor... question answered.

I played FM and it's incarnations for a very long time -- I've been married for 20 years and certainly played before I was hitched. I got FMM16, and that was very good, but a tad simple, so I got FMT17 and although that gave the feel that too much happened on a dice roll, I put a few 100 hours in. But the one thing it was missing? Yes, an editor. It doesn't even need to be a fully fledged job or, TBH, even included in the base price (charge me more!) , but the ability to move the odd player/manager, add the odd fantasy player, run a few 'what ifs...' or even just edit the kit...

So, thank you -- my question has been answered and I'll be saving my 20 quid for another year.

Fmrte use it and edit away.

Not perfect but at least you can keep the game up to date

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In the early days of Touch it was possible to use custom databases, but that was removed after a couple of version IIRC. I'm pretty sure the custom databases were created with the full FM editor (I can't recall a specific FM Touch editor).

I tend to play Touch until the end of the season, but then it essentially becomes obsolete and two transfer windows behind real-life, so I then start to play full FM with custom database over summer until a new version is released.

I tried using FMRTE to transfer players to other clubs at the start of the game in order to reflect real-life transfers, but it only seems to have the option to swap players between clubs and not transfer. However, you can change arranged transfers to move players to other clubs. This is good as it also takes into account the transfer fee.

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