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mersk

Youth intake in FM20

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I'm still a bit on the fence about FM20, but judging from experience I'll probably end up buying it eventually.

 

Anyway, in the meantime I've been reading about new features and the like, and noticed people saying you get a message several months before your youth intake telling you what positions to expect and a general hint about the ability of the players. I was wondering how this works, and I'm specifically interested in if the youth intake is actually decided several months beforehand.

If so, does this mean SI have found a way to prevent savescumming the intake?

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3 hours ago, mersk said:

I'm still a bit on the fence about FM20, but judging from experience I'll probably end up buying it eventually.

 

Anyway, in the meantime I've been reading about new features and the like, and noticed people saying you get a message several months before your youth intake telling you what positions to expect and a general hint about the ability of the players. I was wondering how this works, and I'm specifically interested in if the youth intake is actually decided several months beforehand.

If so, does this mean SI have found a way to prevent savescumming the intake?

Not only that, but intake dates are dynamic (or at least different teams have different dates), so it's not like it was when you could hoover up all the best talent on the same day. It's much, much better now, and it mainly adds some narrative to the youth intakes as opposed to it being a one-day-a-year event. Now you can see what positions are likely to crop up, etc. It's a fantastic new addition. The development centre as a whole is the best new feature in the game for years. 

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That sounds great. I'm not gonna lie, I often fell for the temptation to savescum that intake when I got an especially poor one, and I would prefer if that wasn't even an option. So that's definitely a big improvement imo.

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If you try to savescum an intake, it looks like the player names, positions and big picture characteristics (the best player is a right back from Diyarbakir) are locked, but the attributes are shuffled around a bit.

PhdNWRW.png

VTiBIM7.png

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1 minute ago, Ruh Roh said:

If you try to savescum an intake, it looks like the player names, positions and big picture characteristics (the best player is a right back from Diyarbakir) are locked, but the attributes are shuffled around a bit.

 

Wait, are you saying you can still savescum? Have you played around with this?

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4 minutes ago, mersk said:

Wait, are you saying you can still savescum? Have you played around with this?

I only did like one or two save+reloads to see what it would do. It gave me the same list of names and the same positions (and probably player roles), and from what I saw CA+PA are probably kept the same or kept within a narrow band.

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4 minutes ago, Ruh Roh said:

CA+PA are probably kept the same or kept within a narrow band.

Would love to know more about this. I hope that's the case though.

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I changed my HOYD and now it feels like my u18s manager is bringing the youth into the club.

Where about’s in the responsibility’s can I change that?

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9 minutes ago, metallimuse said:

I changed my HOYD and now it feels like my u18s manager is bringing the youth into the club.

Where about’s in the responsibility’s can I change that?

Staff --->  Responsibilites.

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10 minutes ago, DazRTaylor said:

Staff --->  Responsibilites.

I know that bit pal, but there doesn’t seem to be a “is responsible for bringing youth to the club” like in previous years just buttons for signings and transfers which I don’t want anyone else signing players but clearly one of them relates to newgens.

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I noticed, i dont know if it was just was a one off that my intake was after the other clubs intake. So that prevented me from going cradle hunting, guess thats a postive but alittle less fun :)

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19 hours ago, DazRTaylor said:

Staff --->  Responsibilites.

Is this now simply the “provides youth development information” option?

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It's interesting, but much like the news item you used to get, its seems pretty inaccurate, mine talked about a 'golden generation' and I then ended up with like one 4 1/2 star potential players and few 3 1/2 star potential players and lot of rubbish. 

But it certainly adds more, together with the development centre, to those who are focused on youth development. 

 

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6 hours ago, tajj7 said:

But it certainly adds more, together with the development centre, to those who are focused on youth development.

I thought virtually every FM player was focused on that, so I'm surprised this hasn't been talked about more already. I guess I'll just have to wait and play around with it myself.

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On 10/11/2019 at 01:46, Ruh Roh said:

If you try to savescum an intake, it looks like the player names, positions and big picture characteristics (the best player is a right back from Diyarbakir) are locked, but the attributes are shuffled around a bit.

PhdNWRW.png

VTiBIM7.png

For savescummers who are delighted to get a potential world beating defender but wish they could change his personality, PPM or lack of height, this might actually be better :D 

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20 hours ago, enigmatic said:

For savescummers who are delighted to get a potential world beating defender but wish they could change his personality, PPM or lack of height, this might actually be better :D 

Damn, I didn't even think of that.


FtTBzBI.jpg

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You can also savescum the initial notification which talks about roughly what sort of players you are going to get, and it does seem to vary quite significantly.

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On 11/11/2019 at 17:29, mersk said:

I thought virtually every FM player was focused on that, so I'm surprised this hasn't been talked about more already. I guess I'll just have to wait and play around with it myself.

I am sure there a lot of people who play FM just to buy big stars or wonderkids, not develop their own, others revolve their whole game around it. 

-----------------------------------

Just on the savescumming thing, it's a single player game, so let people do what they want to do, if people really wanted they could just use the in-game editor to create wonderkids out of their academies. Not sure SI needs to come up with a way of preventing people doing it. 

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On 11/11/2019 at 11:05, tajj7 said:

It's interesting, but much like the news item you used to get, its seems pretty inaccurate, mine talked about a 'golden generation' and I then ended up with like one 4 1/2 star potential players and few 3 1/2 star potential players and lot of rubbish. 

But it certainly adds more, together with the development centre, to those who are focused on youth development. 

 

So one player who could be an absolute star for you, probably better than anybody in your current team and capable of playing at a much higher level. And a few who would be above-average players for you and comfortable be good enough for your starting 11. In just one intake? That's absolutely incredible and more than deserving of being called a Golden Generation.

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10 minutes ago, Spurs08 said:

So one player who could be an absolute star for you, probably better than anybody in your current team and capable of playing at a much higher level. And a few who would be above-average players for you and comfortable be good enough for your starting 11. In just one intake? That's absolutely incredible and more than deserving of being called a Golden Generation.

How is that a golden generation?  Golden generation to me is several potential first team or better players in one intake, not one potentially good player and a couple of average ones. 

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49 minutes ago, tajj7 said:

How is that a golden generation?  Golden generation to me is several potential first team or better players in one intake, not one potentially good player and a couple of average ones. 

The Class of 92 gets so much hype because it's so rare to get so many stars coming through at once.

I'd prefer if FM made it more realistic with only one genuine star coming along every year or two. This getting 4 5* youth every season isnt realistic (level dependent).

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It depends on what you feel should be called a golden generation. Look at Ajax, I think their philosophy is two or three academy players into the first team every two seasons. So in FM terms, that's what? Two or three players with PA of 3.5 (minimum 3*) stars every two intakes?

You ain't gonna get a Class of 92 very often, but United DO have an academy graduate in the match squad every week, that's one of the most consistent and successful 'intakes'  in world football, producing such stars as Jesse Lingard! When was the last time West Ham had a crop that was anywhere near the Lampard/Cole/Carrick group of academy graduates, and how many FM Intakes would those three have been under (not sure of their ages off the top of my head but am pretty sure it would have been more than ONE intake)

So if you have an intake that, potentially, can provide your first team with three or four first team capable players in a  few years, then hell yeah that's a win for your academy! I am happy with three or four over two intakes.

Edited by Snorks

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4 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

We hear you. We should remove saving from the game. Got it.

:D

I'd be up for an Iron Man mode.  :lol:

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Just a heads up that the PA stars, which are relative to your own team and not universal, are quite variable in young players compared to their actual potential. This is based on a number of factors, of which the most prominent is how good the player is now for their age. Of course the staff member's attributes also play a part here.

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6 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

We hear you. We should remove saving from the game. Got it.

:D

Much as this is a joke, some people in some other games take the concept of Ironman mode very, very seriously. Because if they've used Ironman mode, we know that the worst cheating deployed involves downloading custom data and using Knap tactics 

:D 

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12 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

Just a heads up that the PA stars, which are relative to your own team and not universal, are quite variable in young players compared to their actual potential. This is based on a number of factors, of which the most prominent is how good the player is now for their age. Of course the staff member's attributes also play a part here.

Hi @Seb Wassell sorry to bug you, but I know from previous experience that you are quite knowledgeable on this subject so I'm hoping to pick your brains if you don't mind. 

Is there anything that you feel able/willing to clarifying from the following please? (Pretty please).

  • When you say "relative to your own team", can you confirm that this is PA relative to CA of highest rated player in squad, and not PA relative to CA of highest player in that position in the squad? 
  • In the past the key parts of facilities in terms of Youth Generation were very much Junior Coaching/CA and Youth Recruitment/PA. I understand that other factors now also have a significant impact on the generation of Newgens, (such as Training Facilities, Youth Facilities, and of course reputation, as well as whatever the National structure Youth rating is called). Could you possibly expand on this a little. What is the most important aspect of generating PA in Newgens. What is the most important aspect of generating CA in Newgens. 
  • In view of the above, how does being Semi-Pro or Amateur impact on Youth Intakes. 
  • I have a HoYD at my club, but when I go to the Dev.Centre, the report is provided by the DoF rather than the HoYD. In the past we were able to delegate to individual staff members, but this appears to have vanished. If it hasn't vanished, would you mind pointing me in the right direction please. If it has vanished, can you confirm that this is working as intended and that feedback......... oh, maybe that's where it is actually. (Yes, I have checked and Responsibilities - Advice & Reports - Player Reports - Provides Youth Development Info is what needs to be changed. That still doesn't clarify who is responsible for bringing Youth Intake players into the club
  • Would you agree that the CA/PA stars on day 1 for a Youth Intake, can often be a little misleading, even when you have good facilities and a good HoYD/Ass Man in terms of JPA JPP, and that this replicates real life accurately, and is working exactly as intended. (ie. it's not an exact science). 
  • I think the Development Centre and the Youth intake is a good progression, but it also feels a little "cosmetic" at this stage. (That's really not a dig by the way. I know that new features have to be introduced gradually and that there could be much more in the pipeline). What I mean by "cosmetic" is that there doesn't really seem to be a benefit in the way things are now. What we get is some pretty broad information about the future intake, but we are not able to impact it in any way. I know you can't go into detail, but is introducing the Dev.Centre as it is now more about laying the groundwork for future improvements? (Sorry, I know you don't like answering stuff like this but it just seems a little pointless at the moment). 

Anyway, thanks for reading even if you are unable to respond. :thup:

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20 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

The Class of 92 gets so much hype because it's so rare to get so many stars coming through at once.

I'd prefer if FM made it more realistic with only one genuine star coming along every year or two. This getting 4 5* youth every season isnt realistic (level dependent).

That is probably the classic 'golden generation', but also England and Portugal for example have also had them, and in all those cases you are talking about several top level players all coming through at once or at a similar time. 

So personally I'd expect a youth intake called a 'golden generation' to probably furnish me with 2 potential leading first team players if not 3, and then maybe another 2-3 that could be considered decent squad players. 

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1 more question @Seb Wassell, (sorry for being a pain), but what significance, (if any), does a club's professional status have on Youth Intakes? (or is it all covered by club reputation)? 

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il y a 37 minutes, Seb Wassell a dit :

Head of Youth Development (HoYD)
The club’s HoYD is responsible for bringing Newgens into the club. He will influence what “type” of players are selected and can partially or fully pass on his personality to some of these Newgens. The “type” of players selected refers to a player’s position and style, for instance a HoYD with a preferred 4-5-1 formation and a Technical Coaching Style may produce more technically styled midfielders than another HoYD.
The HoYD will also influence the rare “freak” or exceptional Newgens that come through, modifying their ability and style.
This role is filled by the HoYD by default, however if none is employed whichever staff member is set to be responsible for youth development will fill this role.

Interesting. Do the stats of the HOYD have an impact on the quality of newgens? (a better HOYD leading to better newgens)

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43 minutes ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

Thanks for the brilliant responses @Seb Wassell

Can you just clarify exactly what part of this is a bug please? I'm happy to report any bugs, but not sure exactly what to report here. 

13fc7b1b305a11bbc5a62099b1dde44f.png

Responsibility for bringing through youth intake and reports being unclear :thup:

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35 minutes ago, SpS_Zen said:

Interesting. Do the stats of the HOYD have an impact on the quality of newgens? (a better HOYD leading to better newgens)

Not outside of the exceptions. Quality of your youth intake is dictated by the factors listed above.

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Il y a 2 heures, Seb Wassell a dit :

Not outside of the exceptions. Quality of your youth intake is dictated by the factors listed above.

So you can take a HOYD with very poor stats, as long as he has the personnality and the formation/coaching style you want. And you wont notice the difference with a 5 star rating HOYD outside the exceptions. Is there an exception, a freak player, once every 5years? 10years?

 

 

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Savescuming is - or was - saving the game just before the youth intake - and loading it back to have another try if you didn't get any useful players.

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@Seb WassellWassell  

Great and very useful explanation!

Now, the next step will be get rid of unrealistic PA and use starting CA, personality, structure, coaches, level games to determinate a player's growing, so making harder and more challange obtain a good player from a raw diamond :D

(And making harder build up a invicible young team and a very hazard buy young from the all the world 'cause Will be harder knowing personality)

Edited by FlorianAlbert9

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17 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

It is not exact (Inside Forward > Inside Forward), but it is position based.

CA and PA are both affected by all of the factors equally:

Youth Recruitment
The Club’s recruiting of Juniors, those of home and foreign origin.

Youth Facilities
The training facilities available for Juniors (only).
Does NOT apply to visible players already at the club. All visible players currently at the club use Training Facilities regardless of age.

Junior Coaching
The quality and quantity of Junior Coaches at the Club.

Nation Youth Rating
The potential maximum quality and quantity of Juniors produced in that Nation.

Game Importance
How important football is considered to be in that Nation.

Producing Newgens
The Clubs with the best Youth Recruitment will generally pick up the best Junior talent from that Nation first, the scale of that talent being determined by the Nation Youth Rating and Game Importance. The lower the Youth Recruitment the further down the pecking order a club will find itself. Two clubs with identical Youth Recruitment will be sorted by Club Reputation. Being lower down this pecking order does not mean quality Newgens cannot be produced, it simply lowers the chances.
Youth Facilities and Junior Coaching then simulate and determine how that Junior progresses in the Club’s Junior system until a Newgen is produced and appears in game. It is at this point that the Current Ability (CA) and Potential Ability (PA) of the newgens are decided. The above factors all contribute to both CA and PA equally.

Head of Youth Development (HoYD)
The club’s HoYD is responsible for bringing Newgens into the club. He will influence what “type” of players are selected and can partially or fully pass on his personality to some of these Newgens. The “type” of players selected refers to a player’s position and style, for instance a HoYD with a preferred 4-5-1 formation and a Technical Coaching Style may produce more technically styled midfielders than another HoYD.
The HoYD will also influence the rare “freak” or exceptional Newgens that come through, modifying their ability and style.
This role is filled by the HoYD by default, however if none is employed whichever staff member is set to be responsible for youth development will fill this role.

So based on all this what do we (not asking seb specifically here) think are the best nations/clubs that tick all these boxes? 

Also what are the maximum levels for these things?, because I thought most of these things used to have a star rating so you could see if you had the max, but I can't seem to see that for most stuff now aside training and youth facilities. 

 

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Can we see in the game the nation youth ranking and game importance in a nation. Never found this, but this information makes me curious.

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4 hours ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

@Seb WassellWassell  

Great and very useful explanation!

Now, the next step will be get rid of unrealistic PA and use starting CA, personality, structure, coaches, level games to determinate a player's growing, so making harder and more challange obtain a good player from a raw diamond :D

(And making harder build up a invicible young team and a very hazard buy young from the all the world 'cause Will be harder knowing personality)

You're passionate about this, I understand, you bring up dynamic PA often. However, we don'd need to turn this thread into that, the discussion is well documented elsewhere.

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3 hours ago, Bartrcm said:

Can we see in the game the nation youth ranking and game importance in a nation. Never found this, but this information makes me curious.

These are deliberately hidden. But they do follow football logic and you can sharpen your understanding of them in game by observing (on average) what type and quality of newgens come from where. For example, on average Brazil are likely to produce better, and more technically competent, newgens than Sweden. These can change over time.

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1 minute ago, Seb Wassell said:

These are deliberately hidden. But they do follow football logic and you can sharpen your understanding of them in game by observing (on average) what type and quality of newgens come from where. For example, on average Brazil are likely to produce better, and more technically competent, newgens than Sweden.

Hello Seb, thanks for the information. So it's logic that I didn't found this in game. ;)

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45 minuti fa, Seb Wassell ha scritto:

You're passionate about this, I understand, you bring up dynamic PA often. However, we don'd need to turn this thread into that, the discussion is well documented elsewhere.

You're right, Sorry :)

(Only one clarification: i'm not for Dynamic PA, that has even less sense. But i'm for no PA at all, but i Will make a post in future request)

 

 

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Il 10/11/2019 in 02:47 , mersk ha scritto:

Wait, are you saying you can still savescum? Have you played around with this?

You can, but it's hardly worth the fuss anymore...

With the old system, you could reload over and over again, with the average AND the individual quality of the intake being (almost completely) random and thus different. One time you'd get 15 absolutely useless kids and on the next attempt a 16yo ready to get some first-team football could have popped up.

With the new system, the "general tone" of the intake is set. You'll get the same names in the same positions, only with marginal attributes reshuffling and potential variation. Still NOT gonna get a new Messi anyway, no matter how many times you reload.

Maybe there still is a way to savescum, but it can't be done the day before the Intake anymore.

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On 14/11/2019 at 16:32, Seb Wassell said:

It is not exact (Inside Forward > Inside Forward), but it is position based.

CA and PA are both affected by all of the factors equally:

Youth Recruitment
The Club’s recruiting of Juniors, those of home and foreign origin.

Youth Facilities
The training facilities available for Juniors (only).
Does NOT apply to visible players already at the club. All visible players currently at the club use Training Facilities regardless of age.

Junior Coaching
The quality and quantity of Junior Coaches at the Club.

Nation Youth Rating
The potential maximum quality and quantity of Juniors produced in that Nation.

Game Importance
How important football is considered to be in that Nation.

Producing Newgens
The Clubs with the best Youth Recruitment will generally pick up the best Junior talent from that Nation first, the scale of that talent being determined by the Nation Youth Rating and Game Importance. The lower the Youth Recruitment the further down the pecking order a club will find itself. Two clubs with identical Youth Recruitment will be sorted by Club Reputation. Being lower down this pecking order does not mean quality Newgens cannot be produced, it simply lowers the chances.
Youth Facilities and Junior Coaching then simulate and determine how that Junior progresses in the Club’s Junior system until a Newgen is produced and appears in game. It is at this point that the Current Ability (CA) and Potential Ability (PA) of the newgens are decided. The above factors all contribute to both CA and PA equally.

Head of Youth Development (HoYD)
The club’s HoYD is responsible for bringing Newgens into the club. He will influence what “type” of players are selected and can partially or fully pass on his personality to some of these Newgens. The “type” of players selected refers to a player’s position and style, for instance a HoYD with a preferred 4-5-1 formation and a Technical Coaching Style may produce more technically styled midfielders than another HoYD.
The HoYD will also influence the rare “freak” or exceptional Newgens that come through, modifying their ability and style.
This role is filled by the HoYD by default, however if none is employed whichever staff member is set to be responsible for youth development will fill this role.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the following also at least as significant?

Club reputation

Working alongside facilities and coaching to influence average player CA/PA after the initial sort of best talent by Youth Recruitment. IIRC your youth intakes generally get better after a series of promotions even if you don't touch the recruitment or facilities and I don't think the development system improvements have changed this?

Nation reputation

Working alongside its Youth Rating and Game Importance to influence the talent level of players with that nationality [or at least those players that might replenish the national team]. So Croatia generates enough world class players for its team to stay competitive despite having a much lower Youth Rating than say, Egypt, and a fairly average club system.

 

It would be good if some of these things were formally documented by SI, since it would save the third party sites guessing how things work to help players from repeating so many misconceptions, and save you having to post them quite so often :D 

On 14/11/2019 at 16:32, Seb Wassell said:

The HoYD will also influence the rare “freak” or exceptional Newgens that come through, modifying their ability and style.

I've seen this a few times and have wondered what exactly is meant by the 'freaks' - the couple of players every season the HOYD reports as having a particular influence on, the couple of players with genuine first team potential every season who aren't always the same ones, the rare future national team player or 'best player of his generation'?

Because if the 'freaks' are most players that will actually make it to your first team in a normal game, it's arguably the most important factor, whereas if it only affects  the rare future superstar who will probably be good enough for you whether the HOYD affects his ability positively or negatively it's less of an issue (especially if you're a tiny club with no chance of hanging on to rare superstars)

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On 16/11/2019 at 15:07, enigmatic said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the following also at least as significant?

Club reputation

Working alongside facilities and coaching to influence average player CA/PA after the initial sort of best talent by Youth Recruitment. IIRC your youth intakes generally get better after a series of promotions even if you don't touch the recruitment or facilities and I don't think the development system improvements have changed this?

Nation reputation

Working alongside its Youth Rating and Game Importance to influence the talent level of players with that nationality [or at least those players that might replenish the national team]. So Croatia generates enough world class players for its team to stay competitive despite having a much lower Youth Rating than say, Egypt, and a fairly average club system.

This is covered in the section you have quoted.

Quote

I've seen this a few times and have wondered what exactly is meant by the 'freaks' - the couple of players every season the HOYD reports as having a particular influence on, the couple of players with genuine first team potential every season who aren't always the same ones, the rare future national team player or 'best player of his generation'?

Because if the 'freaks' are most players that will actually make it to your first team in a normal game, it's arguably the most important factor, whereas if it only affects  the rare future superstar who will probably be good enough for you whether the HOYD affects his ability positively or negatively it's less of an issue (especially if you're a tiny club with no chance of hanging on to rare superstars)

They are exceptions as opposed to the rule. Those mentioned by the HoYD are usually those that he has influenced personality or otherwise.

We don't want to give too much away here though, otherwise it just becomes an exercise in paint by numbers. Better infrastructure, better recruitment and a better HoYD is going to give you the best chance of the best intake.

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