What year is the best version of football manager?

[crusadertsar]

44 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

It's a general consensus mostly among people who liked match engines that were trivially easy to exploit  FM20 is far from flawless and still pretty easy to beat, but it's more balanced [at least post-patches] and its biases more realistically targeted towards modern football [high pressing, playing out of defence] and less towards quirks [shadow strikers not marked properly, opposition unable to handle an extra man in midfield at all]. It's also much better than FM17 for long shots and convincing dribble animations. But everyone likes match engines more when they suit their style of play. FM17 was great for playing attractive passing play through the middle because the defending was so passive and wide players didn't help out when outnumbered in the middle at all.

 

Fair points! No wonder I liked FM17. My possession systems were godly. Now it just feels like such a struggle every game. If you don't pay attention to the match, watching at least on comprehensive and setting every single opposition instruction then you just end up drawing or loosing 0-1 to every team that parks the bus. So forget the instant result button haha. Takes forever to get through seasons when you actually want to win silverware and not just do youth development. It's great for micromanagers I guess but I miss the times when I could run through 10 seasons in just a few months.

Edited July 13, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Spurs08]

Just loaded up FM17 after reading this. And I was amazed by how much better it is in terms of graphics and performance. All the gubbins added to the most recent versions have slown it down, made it much less clean, and the actual in-match graphics have gone massively downhill.

[mikcheck]

I like FM17 and I still play it occsionally but I think it's too easy to play through balls and score goals through the middle. It's fun to watch because the football it's so exciting. But I think FM20 is more realistic.

[crusadertsar]

56 minutes ago, mikcheck said:

I like FM17 and I still play it occsionally but I think it's too easy to play through balls and score goals through the middle. It's fun to watch because the football it's so exciting. But I think FM20 is more realistic.

I just wish they didn't swing so much to the other extreme where you can barely advance through the middle when playing as the top side. Most sides that are lower reputation than you will pack that area so much throwing deep defences with three CBs and two DMs sometimes. There are parked buses in real football, but then there are parked buses FM20-style where they throw everything but the kitchen sink at your attackers.

Edited July 13, 2020 by crusadertsar

[akkm]

1 hour ago, enigmatic said:

It's a general consensus mostly among people who liked match engines that were trivially easy to exploit  FM20 is far from flawless and still pretty easy to beat, but it's more balanced [at least post-patches] and its biases more realistically targeted towards modern football [high pressing, playing out of defence] and less towards quirks [shadow strikers not marked properly, opposition unable to handle an extra man in midfield at all]. It's also much better than FM17 for long shots and convincing dribble animations. But everyone likes match engines more when they suit their style of play. FM17 was great for playing attractive passing play through the middle because the defending was so passive and wide players didn't help out when outnumbered in the middle at all.

 

hey some fair points there especially people will like engines that can enable a style of play better and obviously one they prefer will bias their opinion favourably and fm17 enabled better passing through the middle with passive defending and the wide players thing but thats a small picture view of pass decision simulating real world football as fm17 in the whole simulated pass decision making much better than fm20. as well fairish to suggest biases are there targeted towards high pressing but the bigger point of how that is enabled in fm20 misses the overall point of how its happening. With the dearth of quality pass decision making/movement overall and in the top third and from quality creative players pressing can't really be played around with fm engine so its relative success is not enabled or unfolding for the right reasons. Then throw in then poor stamina/fitness decline effect within matches/periods/seasons/by player standard and fitness wise then the implementation of pressing is a poor simulation compared to real world to enable improper success within FM added to poor pass decision making then you actually have more quirks enabling an easy to beat and for the more wrong reasons within FM. It shouldn't be a linear pressing = success without factoring other elements which Fm happens to not simulate to get to result of making pressing more effective which is the case.

Also playing out of defence is to retain possession at times and move opposition around the pitch to move the ball into positions to play threaded passes up in the top third so again having cosmetically good passing out from the back is ultimately futile unless the passing decision making (and obviously complementary movement) further up the pitch will engender a better outcome for why the passing out from the back is utilised in the first place.

so really whilst there's passing out from the back and much improved pressing to be fair the success and use of both is misleading because of lack of fundamental football aspects being simulated to firstly make full use of passing from the back and secondly to ensure people garnering success from pressing have a false sense of achievement from using same. So really your points about fm17 apply to fm20 for the reasons you uphold fm20 as being good lol just from different aspects of football. 

As for the balanced angle FM20 cannot be at all deemed to be well balanced with the absence of proper pass decision making...at times it resembles the opposite of football in passages of play. The simulation of pass decision making to not value space adequately in the top third and in tight spaces and often to overvalue space out wide and over a higher line deem this engine a failure as a simulation of simple basic entry level passing which even playground football would see.  Add in the need for improved movement then FM20 really falls down heavily in the basic fundamentals of football which have been prevalent since football began. The basics of football within FM should be to have passing and movement simulated as well as they can be. After that comes team structure/defensive shape/pressing and all the other things which would ultimately make fm more challenging and realistic but without the proper simulation of those basics of pass/move then you're really just haven't simulated real world football at all well. Without those basics you'll have incessant and circular balancing exercises where you squeeze one air bubble to just move that air further around the tube causing air bubbles elsewhere. FM19 and FM20 have unfortunately been weak that way...the basics of football aren't up to scratch.

Everyone also likes match engines where the latest shiny object appears within the simulation and satiates their need to have that 'hit' from having the latest thing lol

[enigmatic]

Not sure the pass decision making was that good in FM17 tbh. Certainly it was vastly inferior to recent versions and not remotely resembling real life football in building out the back, and the final third passing wasn't exactly sophisticated: most of the passing movements my teams put together were all about the totally unmarked DLP calmly exchanging passes with teammates ahead with their back to goal until someone ahead of the DLP managed to be totally unmarked, usually an extra player making a forward run in a straight line without being tracked. Nothing about cleverness in passing and moving and tempo changes and all about no pressure on the ball and extra numbers getting forward. The only intricate passes I saw a lot of were the [excessive amount of] backheels.

The counters were nice, but counters look nice when they're pulled off in most versions, including this one.

 

[Broken_Record]

On 25/12/2019 at 18:03, SebastianRO said:

FM 17 .... by a mile because it has the most realistic ME you can imagine. Your team will play exactly like you want them to play. Will you always win ? Of course not, but that's natural, but at least you play the way you want. I own all editions, but nothing comes even close to FM17's match engine. 

I know it's an old message but this is a really weird claim. FM 2017 engine actually probably is the furthest away from realism that the ME has ever been. Many aspects of it made absolutely no sense and the defensive shape in general was awful, which lead to situation where build ups through the middle of the park with slow tempo were unstoppable and players in the middle of the park were recording absolutely crazy amounts of pass attempts.

Wingers' defensive positioning was chosen to stop the overpowering overlaps by full backs but that also didn't work like it should have as especially AM position players don't participate actively on defending. 

This lead to a big mess that didn't look like football or anything sensible at all. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Broken_Record

[Solstad1069]

I play FM17 today because it looks great and i dont need the stuff they added later. 
Can anyone tell me why SI would ever make the perfect Football Manager, thats the problem in releasing this game every year you cant make it perfect if you want people wanting for better versions.
Lets just admit it, Football manager have no real competition and have gone lazy on their product. Do i need to remind you the game use the sound they added in 2006, not a single improvement after that date.

[Solstad1069]

13 hours ago, enigmatic said:

Not sure the pass decision making was that good in FM17 tbh. Certainly it was vastly inferior to recent versions and not remotely resembling real life football in building out the back, and the final third passing wasn't exactly sophisticated: most of the passing movements my teams put together were all about the totally unmarked DLP calmly exchanging passes with teammates ahead with their back to goal until someone ahead of the DLP managed to be totally unmarked, usually an extra player making a forward run in a straight line without being tracked. Nothing about cleverness in passing and moving and tempo changes and all about no pressure on the ball and extra numbers getting forward. The only intricate passes I saw a lot of were the [excessive amount of] backheels.

The counters were nice, but counters look nice when they're pulled off in most versions, including this one.

 

Does it really matter when all they made after FM17 looks worse, they even forgot how to make the pitch look like a pitch. 

[bigmattb28]

12 minutes ago, Solstad1069 said:

Do i need to remind you the game use the sound they added in 2006, not a single improvement after that date.

Okay I'll bite, where did you get that info from?

[Solstad1069]

10 minutes ago, bigmattb28 said:

Okay I'll bite, where did you get that info from?

Its the same sound used when they released their first 3D match engine back in 2009.  Cant find any proof from earlier versions, but sure 2009 was not the first this god awful sound was added.

 

[bigmattb28]

22 minutes ago, Solstad1069 said:

Its the same sound used when they released their first 3D match engine back in 2009.  Cant find any proof from earlier versions, but sure 2009 was not the first this god awful sound was added.

 

You said 2006 on your first post now you say 2009, you've not got any actual proof or word from SI they used the same sounds though have you? I mean, if the sounds are that big a gripe for you just play with the sounds off

[ViG1980]

FM20 for all the features and many of them actually making a difference to the gameplay. The match engine is without doubt incredibly boring to watch though. Set pieces and crosses.

[Sourav B]

On 13/07/2020 at 21:00, enigmatic said:

It's a general consensus mostly among people who liked match engines that were trivially easy to exploit  FM20 is far from flawless and still pretty easy to beat, but it's more balanced [at least post-patches] and its biases more realistically targeted towards modern football [high pressing, playing out of defence] and less towards quirks [shadow strikers not marked properly, opposition unable to handle an extra man in midfield at all]. It's also much better than FM17 for long shots and convincing dribble animations. But everyone likes match engines more when they suit their style of play. FM17 was great for playing attractive passing play through the middle because the defending was so passive and wide players didn't help out when outnumbered in the middle at all.

 

what about playing ping ball on the top of defenders which works pretty much every time and opposition playing unusually high lines and they never catch the players running in behind as if "Analog sprint" is on in FIFA?

[Federico]

Il 14/7/2020 in 10:06 , Solstad1069 ha scritto:

Lets just admit it, Football manager have no real competition and have gone lazy on their product.

Well, no. Even the greatest detractor of the series wouldn't dare to state that.

[dolph11]

8 minutes ago, Federico said:

Well, no. Even the greatest detractor of the series wouldn't dare to state that.

I wouldn't say lazy, more lack of emphasis on important parts of the game would be a fairer assessment. 

[enigmatic]

4 hours ago, Sourav B said:

what about playing ping ball on the top of defenders which works pretty much every time and opposition playing unusually high lines and they never catch the players running in behind as if "Analog sprint" is on in FIFA?

Well yes, that's why they fixed the through balls which were just as buggy as FM17's 'wide midfielders should mark empty space on the touchline'...

[Federico]

1 ora fa, dolph11 ha scritto:

I wouldn't say lazy, more lack of emphasis on important parts of the game would be a fairer assessment. 

Well... I say no again. I'm not happy with FM20, according to my tastes is the less enjoyable FM in the last few years, but have you ever tried to download Unity and make something acceptable? I did, and gave up in a couple of hours.

Surely it's not my job, not my knowledge, not my studies, not my degree. Do I personally expect more from such a long lasting franchise? Yes I do, ever year I expect for the perfect Football Manager, without realising that what they achieved in terms of developing is already outstanding. So from my point of view, the fact that there are no challangers should be a badge of honor rather than a customer's rant.

[mibsweden]

FM 20 for sure. 

[Svenc]

2 hours ago, Federico said:

 So from my point of view, the fact that there are no challangers should be a badge of honor rather than a customer's rant.

Slightly OT, but Germany has two in the oven as we write. The "On The Ball" franchise will see another entry next year after years of hiatus; plus the original designer of that series is developing an altogether different game with his new studio.  However, I doubt that their match engines in particular will compare; the makers have both already announced to cater to simpler times too. Both will also be of the "German" mold, which is running a club wholesale, including the financial, merch and stadium building parts.

Like their predecessors, I doubt these games will make much of an impact internationally -- however depending on which they may make life more difficult for SI in Germany.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Svenc

[dolph11]

5 hours ago, Federico said:

Well... I say no again. I'm not happy with FM20, according to my tastes is the less enjoyable FM in the last few years, but have you ever tried to download Unity and make something acceptable? I did, and gave up in a couple of hours.

Surely it's not my job, not my knowledge, not my studies, not my degree. Do I personally expect more from such a long lasting franchise? Yes I do, ever year I expect for the perfect Football Manager, without realising that what they achieved in terms of developing is already outstanding. So from my point of view, the fact that there are no challangers should be a badge of honor rather than a customer's rant.

I'm not really a gamer, as it were, I only play FM. Obviously, it is a very successful franchise that can't be matched. However, I'm sure it can be improved upon. Some of the additions over the years have been implemented terribly and one wonders how much time and effort they took. Given that the ME has many flaws, one might say that said time and effort could have been put into improving those. 

 

[Sourav B]

23 hours ago, enigmatic said:

Well yes, that's why they fixed the through balls which were just as buggy as FM17's 'wide midfielders should mark empty space on the touchline'...

I get it but was that really game breaking? I have an advice use Wingers as Inside forwards, yes they will cut inside with his weaker foot but thats how the majority of traditional wingers play irl due to being shown their weaker feet and my main complain is GRAPHICS. I posted some pics earlier in this post and just compare them to shots of FM20. FM17 was a big upgrade in terms of animations and graphics over FM16 and then it went downhill instead. I mean dark pitches in broad sunlight? Dark floodlights, poor running animation and that Analog sprint I mentioned is just too painful to watch

[enigmatic]

28 minutes ago, Sourav B said:

I get it but was that really game breaking?

Yes, because you had wide midfielders not defending at all even in a formation like a flat 442, which made it trivially easy to keep possession in the middle of the pitch, even with much worse players than the opponent.

 

33 minutes ago, Sourav B said:

FM17 was a big upgrade in terms of animations and graphics over FM16 and then it went downhill instead

FM17 graphics were hardly a high point. The dribbling animations looked nothing like real dribbles compared with the motion captured dribbles in the current version, the only skill move was a backheel and the stadiums were just as silly as the current version.

 

[Sourav B]

2 hours ago, enigmatic said:

trivially easy to keep possession in the middle of the pitch, even with much worse players than the opponent.

so is the ping pass goals in FM20, but I'm not talking about realistic ME but better me. Ofc FM17 was far from perfect but so is FIFA 16, 17, 20 and so on! If you want realism go for PES which is a lot tougher and better but that ain't a management game so for a team like SI they did well in FM17 which was better than previous versions, animations were better than previous versions mind these bold words plz

 

2 hours ago, enigmatic said:

FM17 graphics were hardly a high point

still it was bright and lighting were a lot better in some occasions a lot better than previous FMs especially the sunlight so were those animations. But my point is how the heck are those better than FM20 which is just DARK!

I emphasized on being better because that's my whole point.

[Tiger666]

4 hours ago, enigmatic said:

FM17 graphics were hardly a high point. The dribbling animations looked nothing like real dribbles compared with the motion captured dribbles in the current version, the only skill move was a backheel and the stadiums were just as silly as the current version.

 

The animation of players running with the ball in FM20 is terrible. They look like they're putting in far more effort than the speed they're going at requires.

 

[DaveyJ]

01/02 if we count CM

[enigmatic]

On 17/07/2020 at 16:11, Tiger666 said:

The animation of players running with the ball in FM20 is terrible. They look like they're putting in far more effort than the speed they're going at requires.

 

Have you seen FM17?!  At least you've got change of foot/direction animations in FM20

[Urotsukidoji]

cm 99/00

[Peter Morgan]

On 20/07/2020 at 12:53, Urotsukidoji said:

cm 99/00

Still playing it to this day! Wonderful game!

[dunk105]

On 24/12/2019 at 13:07, Sourav B said:

FM17 if you haven't played. Imo it has the best 3d ME and the graphics and overall lighting looks much better than latter FMs and also the overall gameplay, yes it doesn't have some eluding features like training sessions and club dynamics but for me its better ME covers that up

Agree- now imagine coming back to FM this year after last playing 17 thinking the ME must be amazing after a couple of years of development.....I did that. Genuinely shocked that the ME has not only not being improved upon but is worse.

Edited August 1, 2020 by dunk105

[dunk105]

On 17/07/2020 at 12:04, enigmatic said:

Yes, because you had wide midfielders not defending at all even in a formation like a flat 442, which made it trivially easy to keep possession in the middle of the pitch, even with much worse players than the opponent.

 

FM17 graphics were hardly a high point. The dribbling animations looked nothing like real dribbles compared with the motion captured dribbles in the current version, the only skill move was a backheel and the stadiums were just as silly as the current version.

 

And we have an improvement this year? Hardly.

The lack of variety of attacking moves is staggering- FM17 was far better, just in terms of finishing let alone the rest. 3 years on an it the ME is incredibly staid and tedious to watch.

[dunk105]

On 16/07/2020 at 10:47, Federico said:

Well, no. Even the greatest detractor of the series wouldn't dare to state that.

Depends- you have to question a developer that thinks forcing a random form of Brexit into the game even before we know the outcome of it is a good idea. It makes me question if SI really care how enjoyable the game is to play when they do things like that. To me thats lazy- in so much as not even giving the player the choice. Same goes with leaving the ME as it was after the final patch- something they've done a number of times over the years.

[Dagenham_Dave]

4 hours ago, dunk105 said:

To me thats lazy- in so much as not even giving the player the choice. 

You do have a choice, you can disable it in the pre-game editor. Wouldn't make any sense to have a choice in-game. 

[Sourav B]

23 hours ago, dunk105 said:

Agree- now imagine coming back to FM this year after last playing 17 thinking the ME must be amazing after a couple of years of development.....I did that. Genuinely shocked that the ME has not only not being improved upon but is worse.

and the graphics too. In this world of advancing technology I just can't stand the dark coloured pitch and under-the-water graphics and very poor lighting in latter FMs. I don't know how they thought this as improvement over FM17 and they didn't even change it after FM18.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Sourav B

[bigmattb28]

On 02/08/2020 at 05:13, Sourav B said:

and the graphics too. In this world of advancing technology I just can't stand the dark coloured pitch and under-the-water graphics and very poor lighting in latter FMs. I don't know how they thought this as improvement over FM17 and they didn't even change it after FM18.

I've tried 18, 19 and 20, for me, and this is objective of course, but 17 is the best version hands down.

Don't get me wrong, I like the dynamics thing, the training, club vision, but really, it's all cosmetic to me.

[Tiger666]

5 minutes ago, bigmattb28 said:

I've tried 18, 19 and 20, for me, and this is objective of course, but 17 is the best version hands down.

Don't get me wrong, I like the dynamics thing, the training, club vision, but really, it's all cosmetic to me.

I've just gone back to 17. It's the version where I can lay out my tactics and actually see the players performing pretty much how I want them to. I just can't get the same results in later versions, especially FM20. FM20 with the match engine of FM17 would be perfect.

[bigmattb28]

3 hours ago, Tiger666 said:

I've just gone back to 17. It's the version where I can lay out my tactics and actually see the players performing pretty much how I want them to. I just can't get the same results in later versions, especially FM20. FM20 with the match engine of FM17 would be perfect.

Yeah agreed mate, you can see your tactics come to life in 17. It's the version I've got running right now, the 1 where I've had the most fun on and t's the most stable version there is.

20's good, but it seems to take longer processing days and matches than 17 does.

[astandet]

Depends what you look for in the game. If it's total domination - go for FM2005. In that edition you could realistically expect to win all the games in the season with minimal mental input required. I remember beating Barcelona 5-0 away and 8-0 at home, Valencia 9-0 in Spanish Cup and some other equally ridiculous results. You could win champions league 20 times in a row. However you need an older version of Windows for that game - won't run in 10.

[Heywood JaBlowme]

GiveMeSport "Football Manager: Ranking every edition of the game from worst to best"

FM 20 isn't even in the top 10.

https://www.givemesport.com/1587763-football-manager-ranking-every-edition-of-the-game-from-worst-to-best

[Tiger666]

3 minutes ago, Heywood JaBlowme said:

GiveMeSport "Football Manager: Ranking every edition of the game from worst to best"

FM 20 isn't even in the top 10.

https://www.givemesport.com/1587763-football-manager-ranking-every-edition-of-the-game-from-worst-to-best

Absolute nonsense list.

[crusadertsar]

On 03/08/2020 at 08:11, bigmattb28 said:

Yeah agreed mate, you can see your tactics come to life in 17. It's the version I've got running right now, the 1 where I've had the most fun on and t's the most stable version there is.

20's good, but it seems to take longer processing days and matches than 17 does.

Gotta agree with this. To me it's just seems that I get the right feedback from my team when I put in the tactic in FM17. I see it in the match results right away. Like, "oh right my team is playing short passes and through the middle". And I get that sense of consistency from the instructions all the time with FM17. With FM20 it's never so sure and more like the players will do what you wavt 50% of the time which is not very satisfying.

[Tony Wright 747]

39 minutes ago, Heywood JaBlowme said:

GiveMeSport "Football Manager: Ranking every edition of the game from worst to best"

FM 20 isn't even in the top 10.

https://www.givemesport.com/1587763-football-manager-ranking-every-edition-of-the-game-from-worst-to-best

With some exceptions, not too dissimilar to my own

[Sourav B]

Look at the graphics here with strong contrast of FM17, a game I am playing right now Espanyol vs Real.

Normal filter

Strong Contrast

FM 18, 19, 20 is just outright non compatible in front of this.

[Tiger666]

4 minutes ago, Sourav B said:

Look at the graphics here with strong contrast of FM17, a game I am playing right now Espanyol vs Real.

Normal filter

Strong Contrast

FM 18, 19, 20 is just outright non compatible in front of this.

Yeah the UI too in 17 is great, no idea why they changed it.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Tiger666

[Sourav B]

Same thing happened with Konami when they changed the overall engine from PES 13 at the expense of license they had specially from La Liga. Don't know why they don't learn. Why try to fix something which isn't broken?

[Jarmel]

I am no expert at valuating the ME, far from it in fact,   As for pure gameplay experience any version with the sliders are my favourites in regards to actually coaching the team and setting up tactics and playing on match day. Probably more daunting to learn but once you got the hang of it so much more control. 

Now this is a really bad example of how i feel the newer ME's work but hopefully you get the gist.  Its like rock paper scissors , the only choices you get are what colour to use. To me it feels like they have dumbed down the ME to be less intuitive and more rigid as it knows its playing rock papper scissors and only need to know how to do these things.   I just cannot get the level of control over the tactics than what I have when using sliders. (Yes i still play versions using sliders)

The introduction of sideline shouts and having to use them as part of your base tactic was flawed (example , i had a winger that was world class dribbler and the only way I could get him to dribble down the right wing was to use the touchline shout)  along with getting rid of the sliders killed the game for mine. I used to buy every version up until 2015 after that it lost me and -played 2012 mostly.

Dipping my toe into the water with 2020 version all though still early days (only 2 months into my first season ) I wont be buying 2021. Having said that i really do like some of the features the game has now, like being able to save tactics per individual player in a particular position, the communication with players seems better fleshed out , The graphics engine is a bit of a let down after not playing for 5 versions

This is just my opinions and not any factual statement

edit: To Answer the question , 2010 from a matchday experience.  Actually 2010 version with all the new non tactic features would be brilliant.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Jarmel

[bigmattb28]

18 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Gotta agree with this. To me it's just seems that I get the right feedback from my team when I put in the tactic in FM17. I see it in the match results right away. Like, "oh right my team is playing short passes and through the middle". And I get that sense of consistency from the instructions all the time with FM17. With FM20 it's never so sure and more like the players will do what you wavt 50% of the time which is not very satisfying.

That's it mate, 17 is for me at least, the most complete version there is. I'm not one for awesome graphics, I mainly play 2d unless a cup game or an important match, and everything just fits, the UI is great, even the screen overview is good. I do like things in 20 like mechanics, and that little bit on your profile that tells you what you're known for, but I'm happy to not have these and have better all round gameplay in 17. I have played a bit of 20 but I just don't get the 'feel' for it, and continue to enjoy my time on 17.

 

[Kingstontom88]

It's not perfect, but I'm still heavily invested in FM18. Approaching season 16 and still loving it. ME has its issues - long shots ending up near corner flags, cross to far post goals are quite common, but I enjoy watching matches and seeing a lot of variety in play and goals. I do miss the more in depth training aspect and some of the other tactical features found in 19/20, but 18's still won me over more than 2 of its successors. 

[grade]

If by best, it means the most fun version ever, then for me FM07 is the best one.

[silentwars]

I haven't been through the thread but I always liked FM 12, and Championship Manager 01/02 was the one that got me hooked. Saying that I tried playing both recently, and they weren't what I remembered so might both just be rose tinted spectacles