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the_hdk

Newgen second nationalities (less than 10%)

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"More newgens will now have second nationalities to reflect the more global world that we (currently) live in. "

 

Sadly that is not true. Less than 10% of newgens in Netherlands or France have a second nationality. That is much less than FM19 and contraditory with statement of Miles above.

 

Will this be fixed for next version?

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1 hour ago, Andrew James said:

Hi @the_hdk

This is under review and tweaks are ongoing in the build up to release.

Cheers,

Andrew

Thank you :) 

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ok I gues sthis issue is not taken serious?  :(

kinda disappointed by this.

 

It seems UK youngsters get more diversity.

 

next version still no fix. dutch regens/newgens are more white than snow.

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Yeah, I wonder what kinds of tools they use to edit this and how much detail they can go into. It looks like they're doing something with England that's similar to how they've handled the US for a couple years now; barely any US players have second nationalities, then there are foreigners with no US nationality sprinkled on top almost evenly from a range of countries. Some places like Mexico should be more common and some places like Scandinavia and North Africa really don't produce as many US players as the game thinks. But if it's outside of that pool you won't ever see it, even though there definitely are real life American players with Vietnamese, Haitian, Liberian, ex-Yugoslavia etc second nationalities. Lee Nguyen, Jozy Altidore, Haji Wright, Djordje Mihailovic, Dilly Duka, and obviously way more than that from a way bigger variety of places.

With England, there are now newgens with European nationalities and no English second nationalities (I think unless the European country is outside the EU, for gameplay/work permit reasons). But Icelandic or Estonian players really shouldn't be as common as Polish players, and outside of the home nations it doesn't look like there are enough players from established English "second nationality" demographics (Caribbean islands, Ghana, Nigeria). Like America, there also isn't enough variety; I think some rare ones might be 100% exclusive to London clubs? But especially if you play lower league in England, you will notice there are real life players with South Asian nationalities, East African, Congolese etc. They just aren't very common individually.

And nations like Germany and the Netherlands look like they're way behind

 

Edited by Ruh Roh

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couldn't agree more. also the thing is in fm19 this was less of an issue. there you had newgens ion NL with morrocan or surinam 2nd nationality...soemthing now so rare eacht year only 2 or 3 newgens get it.

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This is something we're aware of and looking to tweak and improve.

It's quite a difficult one to get right as we aim to maintain the level that's set in the starting db - but this doesn't account for players who incorrectly don't have a second nationality set. 

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Yes i hope this is fixed. It makes international team play even more uneventful considering good players will be hard to come by from some nations that don’t have a great youth system. 

like a Jamaican training at an American academy but decided to play for Jamaica.

 

it should also be noted that players without a second nationality but moved to a foreign country to train is lacking as well.

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42 minutes ago, Andrew James said:

This is something we're aware of and looking to tweak and improve.

It's quite a difficult one to get right as we aim to maintain the level that's set in the starting db - but this doesn't account for players who incorrectly don't have a second nationality set. 

Thats great to hear and thank you for replying. I do hope you will balance it better for final version.

 

Maybe thats the fault. Starting db for for instance Netherlands will have many older players with only dutch nationality.

but if you look at youth teams of all eredivisie teams the percentage of foreign second nationality is much higher.

 

it would not explain the reason for a drastic lower amount compared to FM19 though.

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On 17/11/2019 at 02:05, ClemB said:

Is it me or they completely removed bi national regens ?

 

Pretty close. And it wasn't fixed for the launch, unless you think there are more German Gibraltarians than German Turks

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The fact that this was not fixed on release is extremely concerning for a feature that was ADVERTISED.

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18 hours ago, Gum said:

The fact that this was not fixed on release is extremely concerning for a feature that was ADVERTISED.

this is the worst thing....Miles posted there would be more newgens with second nationalities.  in reality there are less..

 

I just checked for latest release ...no changes. I'm quite disapointed I would have expected SI would tweak this at least slightly for the release. Especially this has been reported from the beginning.

Edited by the_hdk

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Hi,

Thought it best to provide a bit of clarity on this one.

We now have an extra field in our database to set second nationality percentage chances in each nation, which is set by our research team for each nation where the information is available.

There was an issue where nations without this field filled in would produce too few newgens with a second nationality, which should now be fixed.

As for nations where the field is filled, the numbers are taken from percentages provided by researchers, with accurate data used for a wide range of nationality combinations. 

The newgen numbers are based off these tables, but there is a potential sticking point in that there are probably a lot of players in real life who actually have a second nationality - but we don't know about it.

It's an area that we will continue to tweak and improve, but we are aiming for accuracy and currently the numbers are accurate to the best of our knowledge.

If you have youth intakes that you feel are not diverse enough, then please upload a save from before they come through and we can always look into it, the more examples the better!

Cheers,

Andrew

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Let's use the example of Netherlands....

Eredivies clubs still produce very few 2nd generation newgens.  Just take a look at under15 under14 and under13 teams and you will see that 2nd nationality should be 60% for major city clubs and around 20% or less for other clubs.

If you want I can actually do this analysis tomorrow and post it if your researchers are too lazy to do it.

 

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Wait so this is working as intended? If the extra field in the DB and the SI nationality tables are producing results like this, but the tools work, I'd really like to see them get opened up to the pregame editor/community, because these results aren't good enough.

I'm pretty sure obviously foreign names of players without second nationalities are already taken out of the nameset? If they weren't you'd see regens in Sweden named like Abdullah Malmqvist and Henrik Mijatovic. So what would be wrong with classifying the names as (just for Sweden, off the top of my head) Albanian/Kosovar, Turkish/Kurdish, Latin American, Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian, Arab, Eastern European, East African, and applying percentages of individual nationalities later? I can understand how for the UK it would be hard to pick out a Caribbean or an Irish name, but this is easy.

This is without getting into the Gibraltar, Iceland, Belarus etc. nationals everywhere and how that will effect international football for the smaller nations.

 

ed: couple followups. 1) Can you enter in a percentage for a nationality that's less than 1%? If you can't, I think this would explain both why we've never seen ultra-rare nationalities and why some nationalities are too common in FM20, and 2) Does the system try to match the original DB nationality percentages within an age range (16-21, 16-25, 16-35), or does it try to replicate the entire DB, including 60 year old coaches and retired players?

Edited by Ruh Roh

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I holidayed overnight last night to check on regen numbers. I looked at a couple of teams and all of them have way less second nationality u18. The English teams do better (probably because they're researched better and have more accurate percentages)

 

Also all the players with a second nationality were always born in the country they didn't generate in. The French-Belgian guy at Genk was born in France,  all the Australians at Dortmund were born in Australia and none the Ghanian, , Greek, ... guys at Arsenal were born in England. The Irish guys at Arsenal were born in England on the otherhand, but they seem to be the only ones at first glance. Which even if the percentages are accurate still feels off.

 

I can upload the 2038 save if the guys at SI feel it can help.

20191119201450_1.jpg

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20191119201944_1.jpg

20191119201716_1.jpg

20191119202009_1.jpg

20191119201653_1.jpg

20191119202730_1.jpg

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4 hours ago, Andrew James said:

Hi,

Thought it best to provide a bit of clarity on this one.

We now have an extra field in our database to set second nationality percentage chances in each nation, which is set by our research team for each nation where the information is available.

There was an issue where nations without this field filled in would produce too few newgens with a second nationality, which should now be fixed.

As for nations where the field is filled, the numbers are taken from percentages provided by researchers, with accurate data used for a wide range of nationality combinations. 

The newgen numbers are based off these tables, but there is a potential sticking point in that there are probably a lot of players in real life who actually have a second nationality - but we don't know about it.

It's an area that we will continue to tweak and improve, but we are aiming for accuracy and currently the numbers are accurate to the best of our knowledge.

If you have youth intakes that you feel are not diverse enough, then please upload a save from before they come through and we can always look into it, the more examples the better!

Cheers,

Andrew

Was there any changes to this system AFTER 20.1.0? Because just like @Nolopola said, all the players with a second nationality are always born in the country they did not generate in, with exceptions being a few English players and I also checked this last night with a brand new save.

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I'm a student in International Studies and really into migration, I would be glad to give SI a hand with collecting the data. I've done for myself the past years, browsing gouvernement official databases.

I really hope we can match IRL demographics. I live in Montreal, the diversity here is outstanding and it really frustrates me to see the lack of bi-nationals amongst the regens generated by Canadian clubs.

 

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On 19/11/2019 at 12:00, Andrew James said:

Hi,

Thought it best to provide a bit of clarity on this one.

We now have an extra field in our database to set second nationality percentage chances in each nation, which is set by our research team for each nation where the information is available.

There was an issue where nations without this field filled in would produce too few newgens with a second nationality, which should now be fixed.

As for nations where the field is filled, the numbers are taken from percentages provided by researchers, with accurate data used for a wide range of nationality combinations. 

The newgen numbers are based off these tables, but there is a potential sticking point in that there are probably a lot of players in real life who actually have a second nationality - but we don't know about it.

It's an area that we will continue to tweak and improve, but we are aiming for accuracy and currently the numbers are accurate to the best of our knowledge.

If you have youth intakes that you feel are not diverse enough, then please upload a save from before they come through and we can always look into it, the more examples the better!

Cheers,

Andrew

This is disappointing considering that the most diverse country in the world (USA) does not have any players generating with dual nationality.

its probably best if this could be available in the pre game editor if the data is going to be lack luster.

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Hi @Mars_Blackmon

We've looked into this issue regarding USA, and it seems that whilst the desired proportion of American regenerations do have second nationality (approx. 20%), none of these are going to MLS clubs. Newgen code in MLS is different to other leagues as they use the draft system rather than intakes, but this is now under review with our dev team :thup:

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33 minutes ago, Andrew James said:

Hi @Mars_Blackmon

We've looked into this issue regarding USA, and it seems that whilst the desired proportion of American regenerations do have second nationality (approx. 20%), none of these are going to MLS clubs. Newgen code in MLS is different to other leagues as they use the draft system rather than intakes, but this is now under review with our dev team :thup:

I would also say that USA players that do not play in MLS will have totally different second nationalities than guys in the MLS. The make up of MLS are Caribbean, West African, Mexico, North/South american and of course Canadian and Americans.

compared to Americans born abroad who would be German for example.

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There's another issue we're aware of regarding second nationalities, where too many newgens with a 2nd nat have their place of birth set to the nation they aren't generated in (hope that made sense). We think this may also be a contributing factor to some of the issues with nationality combinations and percentages. 

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2 hours ago, Andrew James said:

There's another issue we're aware of regarding second nationalities, where too many newgens with a 2nd nat have their place of birth set to the nation they aren't generated in (hope that made sense). We think this may also be a contributing factor to some of the issues with nationality combinations and percentages. 

In MLS, there should be guys who were born in The US and have a second nationality (Especially Mexican) and guys who generate from a different country and is on the verge of gaining citizenship (Caribbean, African, South American) as these players usually come to america to play in the academies or at college.

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Great analysis @Ikthop. I wonder if this bug is not on the Touch version of the game because if so, I might play that until a patch is released for the main game. And hopefully, that patch triples those newgen dual nationality percentages (and increases them as the game goes on!) because if those percentages end up being on par with or slightly worse than FM19, that advertised 'feature' just ends up becoming a lie which would certainly would not be a great look for SI.  Hopefully, that won't be the case and this issue gets fixed properly ASAP so I can start my long term save.

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@Ikthop did you filter the real players by age? Because if not, many of them got the 2nd nationality by playing X years in that country. That said it's really a problem specially for those who have strict rules for non-EU players (as serie A for example). Kind of sad since there should be a many players around the world with italian as 2nd nationality.. 

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What about players coming through academies that don't have a 2nd nationality? E.G. Someone from like Thailand coming through an Italian or English clubs academy, but only being Thai at the time of the youth intake

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On 19/11/2019 at 09:00, Andrew James said:

We now have an extra field in our database to set second nationality percentage chances in each nation, which is set by our research team for each nation where the information is available.

Is this in the pre-game editor? So we can fix it ourselves?

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1 hour ago, Andrew James said:

This is still under review and we are still making tweaks to try and improve these numbers :thup:

Thanks for the update, hopefully this issue gets patched soon.

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Still to few players with second nationality, please try to fix this correctly.

Edited by WilltheWolf92

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3 hours ago, WilltheWolf92 said:

Still to few players with second nationality, please try to fix this correctly.

Yup. Still nonexistent for USA. There are rarely any foreign imports showing up in academies let alone newgens with dual nationalities.

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I started a new game and got plenty of second nationalities in my youth intake (including players born in the club's country with a second nationality). So maybe the fix isn't save game compatible? Would suck if that's the case, but that would explain it.

 

20191204215724_1.thumb.jpg.8ad6fd34b938bf68f7ec33b9b0891fd6.jpg

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4 hours ago, WilltheWolf92 said:

Still to few players with second nationality, please try to fix this correctly.

Total numbers are better and variety is way, way better. You can click around teams in a new save with "add players to playable teams" to see how much better it is, they did a good job. But I think it's a "data issue," so it's not save-compatible - would like to hear an SI opinion

image.thumb.png.3c169a8cbca89ba06c38deea8cd7ed34.png

 

I remember seeing a post that I think was from SI/mods saying the problem with America was a coding issue with MLS. Looking at the MLS thread it might be way down on the list of problems. You don't have the same issue with a user DB.

image.thumb.png.202c84be1b8f08777c0f6b25baf24000.png 

Edited by Ruh Roh

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14 minutes ago, Ruh Roh said:

Total numbers are better and variety is way, way better. You can click around teams in a new save with "add players to playable teams" to see how much better it is, they did a good job. But I think it's a "data issue," so it's not save-compatible - would like to hear an SI opinion

image.thumb.png.3c169a8cbca89ba06c38deea8cd7ed34.png

 

I remember seeing a post that I think was from SI/mods saying the problem with America was a coding issue with MLS. Looking at the MLS thread it might be way down on the list of problems. In a user DB it looks better, at least with the second nationality players

image.thumb.png.202c84be1b8f08777c0f6b25baf24000.png 

I saw at some sites that it was compatible with the current save, but it could be the other updates, i'll start a new save.

Edited by WilltheWolf92

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vor 26 Minuten schrieb Nolopola:

I started a new game and got plenty of second nationalities in my youth intake (including players born in the club's country with a second nationality). So maybe the fix isn't save game compatible? Would suck if that's the case, but that would explain it.

 

Save game compatible means that the next youth intake will have more second nationalities, but not the players that are already in your save. After two seasons it should have a good balance.

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35 minutes ago, Nolopola said:

I started a new game and got plenty of second nationalities in my youth intake (including players born in the club's country with a second nationality). So maybe the fix isn't save game compatible? Would suck if that's the case, but that would explain it.

 

20191204215724_1.thumb.jpg.8ad6fd34b938bf68f7ec33b9b0891fd6.jpg

I started a new saves. Maybe you’re playing in England...

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vor 8 Minuten schrieb Mars_Blackmon:

I started a new saves. Maybe you’re playing in England...

It's maybe better to start a new bug report as I know they are still tweaking that part. 

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7 minutes ago, KUBI said:

It's maybe better to start a new bug report as I know they are still tweaking that part. 

Hi KUBI,

Do you know if the update with this compatible?

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vor 47 Minuten schrieb WilltheWolf92:

Hi KUBI,

Do you know if the update with this compatible?

Yes, but the changes will only affect future newgens not the ones already in your save.

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9 hours ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Yup. Still nonexistent for USA. There are rarely any foreign imports showing up in academies let alone newgens with dual nationalities.

I started a new save and the issue seems to be fixed, but the percentages seem to be the same as FM19 which is a shame because it should be much higher.

Similar to what I've mentioned before, the chances of American newgens with Latin American and Caribbean second nationalities should be doubled for a much more realistic balance.

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 I just got youth intakes from the academies and I checked all teams. I agree its "fixed" but the % is way too low. 1 out of 10 newgens have a dual nationality for America and its usually an unrealistc second nationality. It should be majorily Caribbean, West African, and Mexican. I only see random second nationalities from European and South American countries for Americans.

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Teams like Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal should have 50% of dual national regens, if not more.

Those cities are incredibly diverse and it reflected in their football teams. 

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