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Football Manager 2020 Pre-Release Beta *Official* Feedback Thread

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Apparently 103 pens in the EPL last season.

If my maths is correct, that works out as 1 every 7.38 games. 81.55% conversion rate.

Edited by martplfc1

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54 minutes ago, Release Day Blues said:

I keep being told that "Club X Reserves" have made a bid for my players, for Britains clubs who don't have B teams.

Wrong.

Snowy pitch is so terrible - looks like its cloudy sky. 

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12 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Referees not giving penalties against the Old Firm. And Willie Collum being his usual dickish self.  Loving the realism of FM this year.  :lol:

I have no idea whether 20 penalties in five game weeks is excessive or not (4 a week across 6 fixtures), but it's not the '10 penalties in one game' line others are using, that's for sure. 

There may not be 10 penalties in a game but there have been 6-8 penalties in a game. Multiple PKMs are attached in the bug forum proving this.

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13 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Referees not giving penalties against the Old Firm. And Willie Collum being his usual dickish self.  Loving the realism of FM this year.  :lol:

I have no idea whether 20 penalties in five game weeks is excessive or not (4 a week across 6 fixtures), but it's not the '10 penalties in one game' line others are using, that's for sure. 

You can stick another onto Collum, just gave a penalty against me in the Cup.

My last five games have seen four penalties now, last ten have about seven. I'm planning a signing based entirely on the fact hes great at penalties as I'm getting one around every three games.

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46 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

2026801388_LadbrokesPremiership_TeamDetailed.thumb.png.cd28557a4d3c10c02ee5f399101f4ccc.png 2068352999_LadbrokesPremiership_Referees.thumb.png.234598bdbd062014070b94a12ef348e7.png

20 penalties after 5 game weeks. Seems a spread across all referees too.

May be worth simulating this until the end of the Season and see if there's a bigger difference. However, there is a thread in the bug section already in which multiple playeres Managing in the Ladbrokes Permiership report a huge Influx of penalties -- so Maybe their Attributes may be all to "blame" to a Degree. Question is, which is it.

Back when I discovered how unrealistic the "discipline" Attribute used to scale with the average amount of bookings (unrealistic amounts vs barely any at all), I had contacted a Researcher. Not only wasn't he Aware of that he told me that Researchers wouldn't be given proper Guidelines by SI when Rating a ref. So every country's Research was "encouraged" to not merely do his own Thing. With some Attributes they also had to go by gut Feelings, very lose definitions of what the Impact actually was, and upon enquiring to not "worry too much About it". This may have changed some since. Still worth taking a look.

As a consequencve: Still remember the multiple reports of how Players Managing in Serie A would reicive a ton of bookings / sending Offs. Just Looking into the db it became apparent that the Italien Research used to create the most refs with high discipline Ratings by far. Whilst that may have been "realistic" insofar as refs in Italy can be more strict; it's obviously never been tested back then what the actual Impact was. No ref in Football would have ever averaged 6-7 bookings per match, yet that was what the Italian Research encouraged to happen in-game.

Edited by Svenc

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I'm doing a Hibs save on FMT this year, I've not touched it since it was updated as I've been too invested in my main save, might have a look and see if penalties have increased there too. 

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Im sitting on 37 minutes in a game vs St Mirren and I've just had my 5th penalty all from tackles on the Right WB running into the box.

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In the German community meanwhile somebody took a look into international Performances of some refs. It's Pretty apparent from that sample size that there is a significant Variation at Play. Italian refs such as Orsato and Rocchi for instance over the still too small sample size averaged ~0.6 penalties per match, which is multiple times the average of typically 0.2-0.3 pens per match  of actual Football.

Those numbers in the Ladbrokes must be pretty interesting… may actually be worth to get the Scottish Research involved too. However I'd also check if it's exclusively your own sides first likewise. Any Competition you enter is simulated by the match engine by Default, including AI vs AI Matches.

Edited by Svenc

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37 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

You can stick another onto Collum, just gave a penalty against me in the Cup.

My last five games have seen four penalties now, last ten have about seven. I'm planning a signing based entirely on the fact hes great at penalties as I'm getting one around every three games.

And another penalty in the very next game...

I wouldnt mind, but I'm literally only conceding goals through penalties, and most show the defender winning the ball.

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5 minutes ago, Svenc said:

In the German community meanwhile somebody took a look into international Performances of some refs. It's Pretty apparent from that sample size that there is a significant Variation at Play. Italian refs such as Orsato and Rocchi for instance over the still too small sample size averaged ~0.6 penalties per match, which is multiple times the average of typically 0.2-0.3 pens per match  of actual Football.

Those numbers in the Ladbrokes must be pretty interesting… may actually be worth to get the Scottish Research involved too. However I'd also check if it's exclusively your own sides first likewise.

I can't see an easy way to see missed penalties since the patch in my game, but in 7 rounds of League fixtures there have been 17 penalties scored and I have scored 11 of them (I've missed 4 more)

There has been 2 Europa fixtures for me in that time as well with no penalties awarded.

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5 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

And another penalty in the very next game...

I wouldnt mind, but I'm literally only conceding goals through penalties, and most show the defender winning the ball.

Maybe all Scottish refs all have a "1" in "allowing flow" and "refereeing" and a "20" in Discipline or something. :D  

Plus a 20 in the hidden Attribute "match Fixing".

Edited by Svenc

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2 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Probably all Scottish refs all have a "1" in "allowing flow" and "refereeing" and a "20" in Discipline or something. :D 

Its definitely something with the Scottish refs, but it only seems to be domestically. Collum, for instance, doesn't seem to give penalties in the Champions League or Internationals, but fires them out in the league.

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1 minute ago, Spedding said:

usually released when game is released.

 

Just now, RandomGuy. said:

I'm sure its release the same day as the full release, so Tuesday.

Thank you both.

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2 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

My forward has 27 goals in 40 games in the season I'm in. Many of which have came via through balls. I play with two wingers (who I sometimes change to IWs or IFs depending on the opposition), so the majority of assists being from crosses is something I would expect. 

throughballs2.thumb.PNG.a7d79e6734cceb139a1ca5bef06e788f.PNGkyle.thumb.PNG.9195fbdc27d6d89f497b8bdc12552019.PNG

 

Jordan Hulme wasn't doing the business then, Dagenham Dave? 

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6 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

 

Its definitely something with the Scottish refs, but it only seems to be domestically. Collum, for instance, doesn't seem to give penalties in the Champions League or Internationals, but fires them out in the league.

Do you have the CL and internationals set to "full Detail"? Else it wouldn't go through the same Kind of Simulation, which is the Match Engine.

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1 minute ago, Svenc said:

Do you have the CL and internationals set to "full Detail"? Else it wouldn't go through the same Kind of Simulation, which is the Match Engine.

How do I check that?

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Just something interesting I thought to look at. I just had a match where I had 36 crosses. Thought that was a bit overboard, so decided to take a look. 

In the premier league, of all teams, Man City have attempted the most crosses. 323 to be precise, it seems. This is the team known for high tempo, quick passing and movement. And most teams would look to play a low block against them,given their dominance. 

City have played 12 games so far. That's about 27 crosses a match on average. 

Also. This could mean absolutely nothing. 

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Just gave up, full back gets in my box, defender wins the ball, penalty. "That seemed harsh" flashes up. Six games in a row. Will return to the save on Tuesday and hope its been sorted.

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6 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

How do I check that?

Game Options menu, there is an Option that says "Detail Level". All the Competitions you personally enter are Always set to full Detail by Default, so that all Matches, including your competitions', are actually being "played" under the same match engine conditions.

Screenshot_2.jpg

Edited by Svenc

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2 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Game Options menu, there is an Option that says "Detail Level". All the Competitions you personally enter are Always set to full Detail by Default, so that all Matches, including your competitions', are actually being "played" under the same match engine conditions.

Screenshot_2.jpg

 

1 minute ago, Sunstrikuuu said:

Open the FM menu and select Level of Detail.

1681410007_Game__UnrealisticCeltic__DetailLevel.thumb.png.4c2ff8c99083e04d4d98b0c6e82f4e71.png

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11 minutes ago, MatthewS17 said:

Just something interesting I thought to look at. I just had a match where I had 36 crosses. Thought that was a bit overboard, so decided to take a look. 

In the premier league, of all teams, Man City have attempted the most crosses. 323 to be precise, it seems. This is the team known for high tempo, quick passing and movement. And most teams would look to play a low block against them,given their dominance. 

City have played 12 games so far. That's about 27 crosses a match on average. 

Also. This could mean absolutely nothing. 

@Jack JoyceI had a strange match as well. I was playing Defensive Mentality with Narrow Defending Width. I was up against a much better side. The AI went 4/74 crosses. I won the game 1-0. image.thumb.png.9b8bd5ed67799167b1f1d46629d77324.pngimage.thumb.png.60318c8a510c99931d5b4e54ecbbb96d.png

Edited by rain94

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21 minutes ago, TWG85 said:

Jordan Hulme wasn't doing the business then, Dagenham Dave? 

I only joined Altrincham during the close season in 2020. Hulme wouldn't sign a new contract because he thought he was too good for us. Joke's on him though, as no-one signed him for about 9 months, so he gave up and became a (terrible) scout. 

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1 hour ago, Svenc said:

They may not be irrelevant, however the Chance/space matters more than the Player who has it. Plus, this isn't even true. Just Looking around there are already plenty Players who consistently outperform the AI in that regard, by a landslide. 

You see, the reason why the AI is the only Entity (in particular Long-term) ever scoring Goals from few/er attempts is because:

- The AI doesn't give a damn About any stat other than the Goals.
- The AI oft Plays defensive Football, which means conceding the "shot/Chance battle" by choice
- The AI manages Matches dynamically, rather than going "this is my super tacticz for this save", so may only start attacking late on, when it gauges it still has a Chance to salvage something. It may even make wholesale changes at HT when the result isn't going to plan etc. In other words, whilst it can't read a match a better Player is able to, it's still given simple means of "logically "reacting to the run of play

What Players of this have been doing is the following, usually. Off-topic, so big fat spoiler inside.

  Hide contents

They think they're like the Pep Guardiola of this game due to their General success (which typically, they are not, as they don't even understand their opposition). So typically, also because of the AI, they face few shots all over the Season. As the AI is sometimes far too defensively, those shots oft only ever come About by flukes, set pieces, Errors. The AI in particular on older Releases just would not push up enough numbers to work decent moves (likely reworked some for FM 20). 

In other words, they concede shots over the Season. Just as Guardiola. However few he does (5-6 average, typically.). Now he goes exclusively through all the Matches in which he conceded / dropped the Points. What is he gonna find, Sherlock? Honestly, go to Whoscored, and try it for all the recent three Seasons. For as Long as you don't concede shots over the Season, you will concede a Goal here or there. If you're one of the better Players, less so, if one of the average to worse, more so. 

There seems a good deal of pompousity in your post, old chap. I have played every version of the game that ever existed, and no the quality of the chances was really no different from those I had.

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30 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

 

Its definitely something with the Scottish refs, 

Yeah, loaded up my Hibs save, and although there was only two penalties given in the first round of games after I loaded it, as luck would have it, Aberdeen, the team I was playing, got one of them and it was NEVER a penalty. Good clean tackle. Perhaps SI know how terrible Scottish refs are and have ramped it up to the max :lol:

I checked the other game where a penalty was given  (Motherwell, vs Ross County), and it was a stonewaller. 

Intriguing. 

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29 minutes ago, hazzabish said:

There seems a good deal of pompousity in your post, old chap. I have played every version of the game that ever existed, and no the quality of the chances was really no different from those I had.

Having played every Edition does not equal fully understanding what is going on. Indeed, some of the longest playing veterans have become accustomed to some of the biggest misconceptions. They've heard it all for so Long somewhere, so it must be true. I'm just trying to Combat this personally, not to have a dig. Sorry if it came off that way. It's just rather unlikely that the AI was ever improved too much if the suspiciious of "cheating AI" were to persist (and that is basically what was implied).  If the AI were improved, its decision making were improved, and it would be even more "efficient". Because sometimes, the AI can still make quite odd choices hurting its Performance and making it less competitive than it could be.
 

@RandomGuy
This doesn't Show how the CL and the internationals (which ones) are set specifically. The CL should be filed under Continental Club Competitions -> Europe. The internationals should be where you are Right now, but you needed to scroll down for the European ones on the Right side of the page. Euro Qualifiers, I presume? I suspect the CL may be set to "latter stages" (in full) so IIRC it would only fully simulate the knock-outs in full, but not the Group stages or earlier. So that would make sense...

 

Edited by Svenc

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9 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

I only joined Altrincham during the close season in 2020. Hulme wouldn't sign a new contract because he thought he was too good for us. Joke's on him though, as no-one signed him for about 9 months, so he gave up and became a (terrible) scout. 

Ah, I see. Quite the plot twist. 

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Do you not get a message to say players loan is about to expire? Just had someone leave in jan without the chance to extend, very annoying

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Hi. Do you know if the full game will be (substantially) different from the beta? I mean, match engine, bugs, etc..

I started a savegame in beta, and i would be happy to continue with it...if there aren't substantial changes.

 

Thanks in advance.

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37 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Having played every Edition does not equal fully understanding what is going on. Indeed, some of the longest playing veterans have become accustomed to some of the biggest misconceptions. They've heard it all for so Long somewhere, so it must be true. I'm just trying to Combat this personally, not to have a dig. Sorry if it came off that way. It's just rather unlikely that the AI was ever improved too much if the suspiciious of "cheating AI" were to persist (and that is basically what was implied).  If the AI were improved, its decision making were improved, and it would be even more "efficient". Because sometimes, the AI can still make quite odd choices hurting its Performance and making it less competitive than it could be.
 

@RandomGuy
This doesn't Show how the CL and the internationals (which ones) are set specifically. The CL should be filed under Continental Club Competitions -> Europe. The internationals should be where you are Right now, but you needed to scroll down for the European ones on the Right side of the page. Euro Qualifiers, I presume? I suspect the CL may be set to "latter stages" (in full) so IIRC it would only fully simulate the knock-outs in full, but not the Group stages or earlier. So that would make sense...

The thing is, the AI is only as good or as bad as the person who made it, and since football is not an exact science with exact answers then there's quite a good deal of 'computer says no'. It's a matter of breaking the code more than having any football knowledge.

 

 

Edited by hazzabish

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1 hour ago, Svenc said:

In the German community meanwhile somebody took a look into international Performances of some refs. It's Pretty apparent from that sample size that there is a significant Variation at Play. Italian refs such as Orsato and Rocchi for instance over the still too small sample size averaged ~0.6 penalties per match, which is multiple times the average of typically 0.2-0.3 pens per match  of actual Football.

Those numbers in the Ladbrokes must be pretty interesting… may actually be worth to get the Scottish Research involved too. However I'd also check if it's exclusively your own sides first likewise. Any Competition you enter is simulated by the match engine by Default, including AI vs AI Matches.

What the site of the german fm community? thx

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35 minutes ago, hazzabish said:

The thing is, the AI is only as good or as bad as the person who made it

This exactly. Hence SI may be quite understandably cautious as to when and where to improve it -- and they must have received tons of Feedback from their tacticsl community throughout the years. However, the game isn't primarily aimed at FM's tactical community. As argued, the reason why the AI on the Occasion scores from few to fewer shots it that it doesn't care About the shots piling up+1 on a spreadsheet come the final whistle blown. It cares About the scorelines -- and makes dynamic match Adjustments accordingly. Shutting up shop to make it harder to score from the kick-off if Content with a draw; Throwing bodies forward ten minutes from time when chasing an Opposition lead at the hopefully (:rolleyes:)calculated Risk of being countered; Making multiple Subs at HT and switching tactics to a plan B if Things don't seem to go to plan, and so on.  Football isn't science, but surely such simple stuff is Pretty well understood and acknowledged for.

 

28 minutes ago, IvayLo said:

What the site of the german fm community? thx

Meistertrainerforum.de

Edited by Svenc

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On 16/11/2019 at 09:57, wazza said:

With Neil stating that the data is now locked except from possibly the odd manager change if its deemed necessary are the competition and rulegroup issues now upto date and won't be changed again for release

Not necessarily. If you want to be sure, wait for release :thup:

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3 minutes ago, steviemay17 said:

Does anyone know if there's a changelist released when the full game is announced ?

Not normally no, they always state that it's a new game so doesn't need a change list. 

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Into which folder do F12 screenshots go?

I can see that it's been captured in the bottom right and I have a screenshots folder, but nothing in it?

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8 minutes ago, martplfc1 said:

Into which folder do F12 screenshots go?

I can see that it's been captured in the bottom right and I have a screenshots folder, but nothing in it?

You're looking in the wrong place I think. Go to the Steam app, click View and then Screenshots, and then use Show on disk for the right path.

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1 hour ago, kandaurov said:

Hi. Do you know if the full game will be (substantially) different from the beta? I mean, match engine, bugs, etc..

I started a savegame in beta, and i would be happy to continue with it...if there aren't substantial changes.

 

Thanks in advance.

Even if it is, all fixes except for data changes (which is locked atm I believe, so there won't be any more of those) should get applied to running saves as well so any changes will impact your current save as well. 

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17 minutes ago, GOODNAME said:

Any chance  that  the full game  will be tomarrow at 12:00 am?

I think that's usually the case

I've booked Tuesday & Wednesday off work, so I'll go 48 hours straight 

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8 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I think that's usually the case

I've booked Tuesday & Wednesday off work, so I'll go 48 hours straight 

Last year the full game released in 12:00 am ? 

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Just now, GOODNAME said:

Last year the full game released in 12:00 am ? 

I think so, sure a mod can confirm

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