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Football Manager 2020 Pre-Release Beta *Official* Feedback Thread

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13 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

you are comparing the report card from a scout meeting with the scout report on a player profile. These are not the same screens, which could explain the difference you are seeing.

they are both from the same versoin

previously on scout report card when i clicked position and role it showed the PA now i need to go into the player profile to view the PA on his position and role

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9 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

To add to previous feedback since the last update. 

I have now played over 30 matches on this update, and I really do feel this is the best match engine SI have produced. People can argue long into the night about what is right for them, but for me, if I had to boil it down to one thing, it's the remarkable difference since the first beta build in your team's style being represented properly on-screen. It felt like in the original beta, no matter your playstyle, you would always see endless long balls, cross field passes, volleys from 30 yards pinging into the top corner. When I play the game now, not only is the style I want the team to play getting more cohesive as the matches go by, but also my (and the AI's) tactical changes are having a real visual effect. I have never made so many in-game changes in any other version of FM than this one. It feels (for me) like actually going up against another manager. 

This feedback is all based on a save from the VNN in England, so I don't know how the engine changes have been implemented at a more elite level. But right now, I'm enjoying FM more than I have for about 2 years now. Which is nice. 

Totally agree. It's the best match engine that I can remember. 

Just one thing though. Shots from impossible angles seems to be a thing for me. But other than that i feel like I'm actually seeing a true representation of my tactical instructions being played out. That is undoubtedly the best thing about this. 

That with club vision has really brought the love back for this game after having struggled to really wanna get stuck in to the last two versions.

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Just now, d879moore said:

That with club vision has really brought the love back for this game after having struggled to really wanna get stuck in to the last two versions.

I'm the same, except of the non-match engine stuff, it's the development centre which has been a game changer for me this year, although I like the Club Vision stuff as well. It just feels like a complete game now. I have no idea what they can realistically add to this in terms of big features from now on. Almost everything I want in a game of this nature is now there. 

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17 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

When I play the game now, not only is the style I want the team to play getting more cohesive as the matches go by, but also my (and the AI's) tactical changes are having a real visual effect. I have never made so many in-game changes in any other version of FM than this one. It feels (for me) like actually going up against another manager. 

Nail on head.

Playing last night in the 3rd round of the FA Cup in a tricky away game at Rochdale. Under pressure, but still goalless the AI was really trying everything to get a goal. Went down to 10 men after about 70 minutes but hung on in mainly due to putting bodies behind the ball and time-wasting. At full-time I was ecstatic and for the first time in ages (or at least since FM17) I really felt that I had to work for the result against an AI that knew how to set up a team.

Not perfect (no games ever are), but very impressed so far. Well done SI.

 

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2 hours ago, luka_ said:

Anyone remember CM01/02..or was it 00/01? The one where Roma was practically unbeatable with Batistuta and Totti and Capello as manager? Well, enter Liverpool on FM20. Lost 0 games in my 1st season in the league and 8 games into 2nd season they are again with 8 wins. That is now 46 games unbeaten. I know they are supposed to be good but this is getting quite scary now. At least it is a challenge to beat them to the title I guess.

I have only played one full season (2020/21 as I holidayed a full season) and in that season Liverpool won everything except the CL where they got knocked out in the semis.  

Tottenham have done nothing since the start so at least that is accurate.

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57 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

To add to previous feedback since the last update. 

I have now played over 30 matches on this update, and I really do feel this is the best match engine SI have produced. People can argue long into the night about what is right for them, but for me, if I had to boil it down to one thing, it's the remarkable difference since the first beta build in your team's style being represented properly on-screen. It felt like in the original beta, no matter your playstyle, you would always see endless long balls, cross field passes, volleys from 30 yards pinging into the top corner. When I play the game now, not only is the style I want the team to play getting more cohesive as the matches go by, but also my (and the AI's) tactical changes are having a real visual effect. I have never made so many in-game changes in any other version of FM than this one. It feels (for me) like actually going up against another manager. 

This feedback is all based on a save from the VNN in England, so I don't know how the engine changes have been implemented at a more elite level. But right now, I'm enjoying FM more than I have for about 2 years now. Which is nice. 

Really encouraging to hear this from you, which makes me believe that the videos I've been watching since the update are/were still using the previous ME. I can't wait to try the demo myself.

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Fired up the updated beta to test the new ME myself and after playing few matches, I have to say job well done SI. The ME is now beautiful. :applause::thup:.

Here's my feedback on the new ME:

Pros-

1) No excessive long shots issues.

2) No excessive yellow/red cards issues.

3) No lack of crossing issues. My players cross when it's on.

4) No lack of dribbling issues. My players dribble when it's on.

5) No unrealistically high amount of shots.

6) No shots from impossible angles.

7) No stupid long balls from the back.

8) No sleeping defenders when long balls are played in behind. Although reaction time can still be improved for the defenders but it's not a big deal for now.

9) Good intelligent passing and decisions not just from my team but from AI as well.

No major issues so far. If I find one, I'll post it but as it stands, love the game now and I'm going to start my first long term save. See ya'll next year. It has been a pleasure. :hammer: 

Edited by pats

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1 hour ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

To add to previous feedback since the last update. 

I have now played over 30 matches on this update, and I really do feel this is the best match engine SI have produced. People can argue long into the night about what is right for them, but for me, if I had to boil it down to one thing, it's the remarkable difference since the first beta build in your team's style being represented properly on-screen. It felt like in the original beta, no matter your playstyle, you would always see endless long balls, cross field passes, volleys from 30 yards pinging into the top corner. When I play the game now, not only is the style I want the team to play getting more cohesive as the matches go by, but also my (and the AI's) tactical changes are having a real visual effect. I have never made so many in-game changes in any other version of FM than this one. It feels (for me) like actually going up against another manager. 

This feedback is all based on a save from the VNN in England, so I don't know how the engine changes have been implemented at a more elite level. But right now, I'm enjoying FM more than I have for about 2 years now. Which is nice. 

Couldn't agree more. The ME is in a right place right now and doesn't need further tweaks imo. Of course, it will never be perfect and improvements can always be made but as things stand, it's better than previous FM versions for sure. 

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3 minutes ago, TheVerySpecialOne said:

Would it be ok to start a long term save or should I still wait for the full game?

It's perfectly ok imo. Go for it. :thup:

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3 minutes ago, TheVerySpecialOne said:

Would it be ok to start a long term save or should I still wait for the full game?

There will be some database changes (Potentially rules change or added to it in regard of Euro II) so I would recommend to wait till then if you feel it would affect you in long term. 

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1 minute ago, SazoJohnno said:

There will be some database changes (Potentially rules change or added to it in regard of Euro II) so I would recommend to wait till then if you feel it would affect you in long term. 

Thanks, well, I'm gonna wait for it, it's just a couple of days. 

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2 hours ago, Juego de Posicion said:

I’ve read the sticky and even Rashidi/BustTheNet’s book but neither goes into the level of detail I’m looking for unfortunately.

Thanks for the suggestion though! 👍

What level of detail are you looking for? Start a post in that area and I (and I'm sure others) will take a look :)

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hace 40 minutos, pats dijo:

Couldn't agree more. The ME is in a right place right now and doesn't need further tweaks imo. Of course, it will never be perfect and improvements can always be made but as things stand, it's better than previous FM versions for sure. 

While it's a big improvement and the best so far, there is one important thing missing, through balls through the middle and specially around/inside the area instead of midfielders shooting from outside like if they had no pass option and ignoring the strikers that are too static and not making moves.

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3 hours ago, bleventozturk said:

Sure, AI contributes to it with it's approach, but that's only one part of the issue. IRL, when teams decide just to sit back and not attack at all, we still don't see anywhere near this many opportunities to shoot. This feels much more like arcade than simulation.

On average, probably not, not sure. Teams conceding a load of shots if they sit back is pretty comm,on though. Still It's hard to find Teams defending as rigidly as the AI often does. An approximization may be in parts Sean Dyche's Burnley, who had conceded an average of 20 shots half-way through their 2017 Campaign (for a total of 12 Goals conceded…) For Dyche in particular, it isn't the amount of shots, it is the Quality he concedes. He couldN't give less About the amount. The AI could be argued to be all Dyche a bit too readily, in a sense. Speaking of which, as argued, set piece attempts which are most often saved as well as blocked attempts have been the main culprits in-game for me. They make the numbers go up, which even in the age of xG et all becoming Mainstream is then confused for "playing well", when it is oft something else completely. Moreover, set piece attempts are also taken inside the box.... however typically in very Little space, and oft being headers to begin with… so they're less obvious than the oft critized ranged attempts to begin with. 

2 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

When I play the game now, not only is the style I want the team to play getting more cohesive as the matches go by, but also my (and the AI's) tactical changes are having a real visual effect. I have never made so many in-game changes in any other version of FM than this one. It feels (for me) like actually going up against another manager. 

That sounds all promising. :)Let me add one thought:To me FM has never felt like going against an actual (top) Manager, no less as the AI visibly can't read a match and wouldn't specifically try to disrupt your style. However, that's fine…… it's a sim game after all. Plus I have the Impression that's how Players of this prefer this anyway. Match Management isn't a one horse race, yet still the expectation is that everything should be going to own instructions. "Too many Long shots despite my side set up to Combine into the box, including proper roles, duties, movement and all". Well there may be another Manager on the pitch except for youself. One who tries to force your Team to do just that… it may be me in multiplayer. :D I equally don't think the game should be ever balanced so that it becomes a Micro tweaking fest. But then if the impact of tactical decisions were "realistic", they would "just" shift the odds a few anyhow. 

Edited by Svenc

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5 minutes ago, Icy said:

That is part of what I was talking above, barely any through ball through the middle of the field for the strikers and i'm not talking about long balls over the defense that we have already.

Pepe acceleration 18, Aubameyang acceleration 20, a third of a pitch of space, I honestly do not get it  

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2 minutes ago, Svenc said:

To me FM has never felt like going against an actual (top) Manager, no less as the AI visibly can't read a match and wouldn't specifically try to disrupt your style

You say that, but I always now have the opposition formation tab open during a game. You'd be amazed at the amount of changes the AI manager makes during a game. Not saying manager AI is perfect, far from it, and I doubt it ever will be, but it's definitely improving from what I've seen so far. Again, my sample is from lower league football. 

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11 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

See, this is what does my nut with the ME, I don't know what's calculating the decisions, it'll be above me. Half hour into my first game on an Arsenal save, hitting PSG on the break here, where do you think Ceballos plays this?

Untitled.thumb.png.1550e89eabfe50d7e8681a2fd53c99c8.png

I'll give you the answer, he plays it down to the number 15 on the left wing 

 

 

 

That is a great example of what's needed in the bugs forum. Can you re-post with a PKM there, please?

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Just now, HUNT3R said:

That is a great example of what's needed in the bugs forum. Can you re-post with a PKM there, please?

Yes of course Hunt, but I did this for FM19 & have logged similar for FM20 already 

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Just now, Johnny Ace said:

Yes of course Hunt, but I did this for FM19 & have logged similar for FM20 already 

Thanks for that. It's a continuous balancing act. I know that this is something that has been an issue and as you show, still has issues. More examples can only help improve it.

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Just now, HUNT3R said:

It's a continuous balancing act. 

Yup, the last thing you want to happen is for those passes to be overpowered and end up with 6-6 shootouts every week. Must be a nightmare to code changes to that engine. 

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3 hours ago, upthetoon said:

Gegenpress is still overpowered. There should be serious repercussions for players who use Gegenpress with unsuited teams. LLM especially should not be able to use Gegenpress. 

I disagree with you here. It is a viable tactical option and you will see it even at grassroots. They won't maintain it as much as Liverpool would, and some teams won't do it very well, but there's no doubt some teams pull it off and it works for them.

3 hours ago, bleventozturk said:

Sure, AI contributes to it with it's approach, but that's only one part of the issue. IRL, when teams decide just to sit back and not attack at all, we still don't see anywhere near this many opportunities to shoot. This feels much more like arcade than simulation.

Having said that, I am not sure if the latest videos/streams that I've been watching are using the latest update of the ME. I am just waiting for Nov 19 to test it myself.

I sort of agree, I also think that players are perhaps too eager to fire off a long shot when they're out of options, which adds to the number of shots being a bit inflated. 

2 hours ago, bobbyb12345 said:

(Random observation - sample size of ten games or so with a pretty ropey Vanarama South team)

Anyone else seeing quite low match ratings for defensive players? Might just be a bad run but seeing lots of defenders scoring 6.2 and below quite a bit. Don't recall that last year at all.

(Could just be my specific save)

I did see poor ratings for my centrebacks in a game I '****house'd'. I beat Liverpool at Anfield, with a mere 4 shots, 2 on target, while they peppered away. The low ratings were due to the CB's misplaced passes apparently.

14 minutes ago, Icy said:

While it's a big improvement and the best so far, there is one important thing missing, through balls through the middle and specially around/inside the area instead of midfielders shooting from outside like if they had no pass option and ignoring the strikers that are too static and not making moves.

I did see a phenomenal through ball down the middle yesterday, but it only happened when the opposition played more aggressively, we had the time to pull it off and there was space available. Actually, was such a beautiful ball I was quite disgusted at it. :P

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33 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

That is a great example of what's needed in the bugs forum. Can you re-post with a PKM there, please?

Well let’s hope it’s worth his time because last year around this time, I (and others) have submitted lots of PKMs of similar patterns and they were only acknowledged and nothing happened.

Edited by Armistice

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39 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

You say that, but I always now have the opposition formation tab open during a game. You'd be amazed at the amount of changes the AI manager makes during a game. Not saying manager AI is perfect, far from it, and I doubt it ever will be, but it's definitely improving from what I've seen so far. Again, my sample is from lower league football. 

That said, the pure amount of changes in a  match can also become a tad "unrealistic" / over the top. :) I too think they are going to make the AI behave more realistically. However I don't think it would specifically be able to react to what's actually specifically going on in a match. E.g. its high lines being exposed by balls over the top all over, so try to disrupt that some. If the AI would become too reactive, this place were Rage Quit Central after all, and the mods had a lot more to clean up than the perennial "AI scores with few shots, must be cheating!!!" conspiracies. :D :rolleyes:

Edited by Svenc

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First round of Prem games, Bournemouth beat Liverpool 2-1, Bournemouth's second goal was from a beaut of a through ball :applause:

Man U beat Villa 7-0 too :D

Edited by Johnny Ace

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57 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

See, this is what does my nut with the ME, I don't know what's calculating the decisions, it'll be above me. Half hour into my first game on an Arsenal save, hitting PSG on the break here, where do you think Ceballos plays this?

Untitled.thumb.png.1550e89eabfe50d7e8681a2fd53c99c8.png

I'll give you the answer, he plays it down to the number 15 on the left wing 

 

 

 

Perfect example mate. This is THE tweak the ME needs to make sure that ceballos plays that obvious through ball into the space in front of 19.

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7 minutes ago, Tiger666 said:

Can anyone say if this has been fixed?

 

Let us know - does it operate as you expect? :)

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Is anyone else experiencing this bug? After each match my opposition instructions get reset from "Apply to all players in this position" to "Apply only to this player"

 

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My first feelings are quite skeptical.. Well the animation seems better, more natural in many cases. But: I take my save with Borussia Mönchengladbach:

- it took me until half September before I began win

- now my tactics with new engine doesn't work at all.. actually I am now cheating in order to study this new engine's intepration of the tactics

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 After the minor update from Wednesday (20.1.0) FM20 looks brilliant! Ist it perfect? No, of course not. But the current status of the ME is a huge step forward.

There are still some issues but in my oppinion the Beta in this phase is already better than the final FM19.

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47 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Yup, the last thing you want to happen is for those passes to be overpowered and end up with 6-6 shootouts every week. Must be a nightmare to code changes to that engine. 

True, but imo the right approach should be to tweak the ME first to make sure that the obvious through balls are played. That will probably inflate the scores, but then the next step would be to improve the defending so that there will be less through ball opportunities like that one. BUT, again, this needs to be be fixed first. Not addressing this for the purpose of keeping the scorelines realistic is not a good long term plan for the development of ME (I know you are not suggesting that). Like others have said, countless PKM's were uploaded during the development of FM19 and it never got fixed. It is FM20 now and it is still there. I expect better from SI.

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1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

See, this is what does my nut with the ME, I don't know what's calculating the decisions, it'll be above me. Half hour into my first game on an Arsenal save, hitting PSG on the break here, where do you think Ceballos plays this?

Untitled.thumb.png.1550e89eabfe50d7e8681a2fd53c99c8.png

I'll give you the answer, he plays it down to the number 15 on the left wing 

 

 

 

I notice this far too often. The game is absolutely brilliant up until the final third. Incredibly frustrating seeing your winger hoof the ball across field or smash it into the side netting with the striker in miles of space. 

A nice build up goal involving the striker seems to be non existent 

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I am still browsing the recently uploaded youtube videos, and I still see 30+ shots from stronger teams almost every game. I hope that they are still from the previous beta build. Can somebody post how many shots on average are they seeing?

 

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16 minutes ago, TheInvisibleMan said:

I had Ozil play this brilliant through ball in one of my games. Real shame that Saka was offside! I guess that's what 19 vision provides you with 😍

In the previous match engine I didn't think there was enough of this but much more positive about it having seen this one. Hope it continues!

2019-11-14 16.40.06.gif

Very nice goal. But the question is, have you seen similar situations where Ozil instead passed it back to Pepe, like a one-two? That would be more of a through ball that FM19 lacked and I expected to see in FM20.

Edited by Armistice

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1 minute ago, Armistice said:

Very nice goal. But the question is, have you seen similar situations where Ozil instead passed it back to Pepe, like a one-two? That would be more of a through ball that FM19 lacked and I expected to see in FM20. Don’t get me wrong I like your scenario aswell.

Exactly. The first option there should be Pepe. This is still a ball that is played diagonal across the field, just shorter distance. ME is heavily leaning on these diagonal balls, at a cost of missing obvious short through balls into the space in front of the forwards.

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13 minutes ago, bleventozturk said:

I am still browsing the recently uploaded youtube videos, and I still see 30+ shots from stronger teams almost every game. I hope that they are still from the previous beta build. Can somebody post how many shots on average are they seeing?

 

Just a tiny sample from my 5 first competitive games with Cork City:

Wateford v Cork City : Shots 13 v 8. Long shots 3 v 1
Dundalk v Cork City: Shots 19 v 5. Long shots 4 v 2
Corck City v Finn Harps: Shots 10 v 6. Long shots 2 v 4
Drogheda v Cork City: Shots 10 v 17. Long shots 8 v 3
Cork City v Sligo Rovers: Shots 9 v 9. Long shots 1 v 2
 

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32 minutes ago, Seb Wassell said:

Let us know - does it operate as you expect? :)

Well I don't know, I haven't purchased FM20 and I won't until I know that bug has been fixed. FM19 was ruined for me because of it and I won't be burned again. Guess I'll wait for the demo.

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2 minutes ago, roykela said:

Just a tiny sample from my 5 first competitive games with Cork City:

Wateford v Cork City : Shots 13 v 8. Long shots 3 v 1
Dundalk v Cork City: Shots 19 v 5. Long shots 4 v 2
Corck City v Finn Harps: Shots 10 v 6. Long shots 2 v 4
Drogheda v Cork City: Shots 10 v 17. Long shots 8 v 3
Cork City v Sligo Rovers: Shots 9 v 9. Long shots 1 v 2
 

These look like perfectly normal numbers. If you have a minute, can you just check the stats from some dominant teams' matches (but should be in full detail ME), such as Liverpool?

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Agree with what others are saying about through balls. Hopefully we'll see some improvement for the final game

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44 minutes ago, bleventozturk said:

These look like perfectly normal numbers. If you have a minute, can you just check the stats from some dominant teams' matches (but should be in full detail ME), such as Liverpool?

Don't have many on full detail but i'll do a few that i can find:

Liverpool v Man City: Shots 10 v 16. Long shots 3 v 4
Liverpool v Barcelona: Shots 11 v 5. Long shots 4 v 3
Barcelona v Liverpool: Shots 15 v 8. Long shots 6 v 1
Liverpool v Atletico: Shots 19 v 2. Long shots 3 v 0
Atletico v Liverpool: Shots 6 v 10. Long shots 1 v 4
Liverppol v Juventus: Shots 22 v 7. Long shots 8 v 3
Juventus v Liverpool: Shots 17 v 5. Long shots 4 v 2
Barcelona v Fiorentina: Shots 22 v 1. Long shots 5 v 0
Fiorentina v Barcelona: Shots 7 v 10. Long shots 4 v 4
Barcelona v Dortmund: Shots 25 v 5. Long shots 9 v 0
Dortmund v Barcelona: Shots 11 v 23. Long shots 3 v 6
Real Madrid v Man C: Shots 14 v 9. Long shots 9 v 2
Man C v Real Madrid: Shots 15 v 14. Long shots 5 v 7
Real Madrid v PSG: Shots 30 v 18. Long shots 12 v 3 (Mad game, apparently. 5-5)
PSG v Real Madrid: Shots 19 v 19. Long shots 7 v 1

As i mentioned; i don't have many competitions on full detail.
These are some that i could find, but they're taken from Champions League 22/23-season, latter stages.
I do realise that they are "equally" dominant teams facing eachother. Might not be exactly what you were thinking of, but it's something.

-EDIT-
Just to clarify: Shots are Total Shots. Long shots are included.

Edited by roykela
Clarification

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10 minutes ago, roykela said:


I do realise that they are "equally" dominant teams facing eachother. Might not be exactly what you were thinking of, but it's something.

Hey man, I really appreciate your post. Like you say though, I want to see more of Liverpool vs. for example a Newcastle calibre team. But even in your examples there are some numbers that are concerning. Look at Barcelona-Fiorentina. 22 shots vs. 1 shot. You almost never see something like this irl. And you just can't say 'it is just one game', because it is more the norm in ME in such matchups than the exception.

Real vs. PSG had 48 shots! in total. That's 1 shot every 2 minutes. 

I guess I will continue my FM 17 save now :(

 

Edited by bleventozturk

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6 minutes ago, bleventozturk said:

Hey man, I really appreciate your post. Like you say though, I want to see more of Liverpool vs. for example a Newcastle calibre team. But even in your examples there are some numbers that are concerning. Look at Barcelona-Fiorentina. 22 shots vs. 1 shot. You almost never see something like this irl. And you just can't say 'it is just one game', because it is more the norm in ME in such matchups than the exception.

Real vs. PSG had 48 shots! in total. That's 1 shot every 2 minutes. 

I guess I will continue my FM 17 save now :(

 

Those longshots are already included in the total shot count I believe.

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Tbh, I'm liking so much this new ME, than I'm even affraid it gets "worse" in the full game :lol:

This v2016 is great, just great. Not perfect, but it's great, probably ther best one ever and I don't say this lightly.

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What happened to the promised set piece creator thing for goal kicks? The fm twitter account seems to have deleted the tweet about it 

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And they're total shots and not shot on target. I see nothing wrong (at least to be alarmed by) with those numbers...unless I am misunderstanding.

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