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Neil Brock

Football Manager 2020 Pre-Release Beta *Official* Feedback Thread

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Forgive me if I come across as a total noob with this question but I've never played the BETA before.  Over the years I've seen comments like "play the BETA and decide if you want to play the game" so always assumed you could download the BETA if you haven't pre ordered the game or not.  But from what I can find it seems you can only download the BETA if you have purchased or pre ordered the game?  Can someone clarify?  Thanks.

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4 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I almost feel like i need to stick in screenshots to prove my point but over the years i realise its futile., I am actually sitting in front on my machine now and my WB has twice shut out a winger and once he's even decided our halfback needs an extra hand, now that pissed me off . Last year i created a 415 which needed my wingbacks to press high and early, even before the opposition wingers latched onto the ball, otherwise that tactical system would have failed miserably. I have an entire season of youtube videos which show this happening. This year I am able to do it again. So I am just gonna leave this discussion here and walk away, cos i don't want to beat a horse to death. If that is your experience, then you havent' done everything possible.

It may very well be possible that in a 532 the wingbacks may retreat a bit too much for people's liking, but i wasn't playing a 532. My point was merely addressed to whether wingbacks stepped up to press early. They do in my system which is not a 532.

Can you link me to a relevant video? If there's an idea in your 415 that solves the problem of 3 at the back systems that would be fantastic. I very much doubt there is though! I'd love to be wrong.

If you set up an extreme tactic and it caused wingbacks to have tonnes of space to cover in a back 4 then great I suppose. But having beaten my head against a wall trying to get back 3's and 5's to work properly on FM19 I know there's an issue with it.

Edited by ceefax the cat

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9 minutes ago, Sussex Hammer said:

Forgive me if I come across as a total noob with this question but I've never played the BETA before.  Over the years I've seen comments like "play the BETA and decide if you want to play the game" so always assumed you could download the BETA if you haven't pre ordered the game or not.  But from what I can find it seems you can only download the BETA if you have purchased or pre ordered the game?  Can someone clarify?  Thanks.

You can download the DEMO version for free and not the BETA. DEMO is usually out when the full version is there.

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1 minute ago, Bakiano said:

You can download the DEMO version for free and not the BETA. DEMO is usually out when the full version is there.

ah, thank you kindly.

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4 minutes ago, Sussex Hammer said:

ah, thank you kindly.

You're welcome 🙂

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28 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Started a European journeyman save, lost my first job 3/4 of the way into the season, and despite having every league in Europe loaded, I simply cannot get another job. I've had one interview in 4 months with Bath City in the lowest playable English league, and didn't get the job. I know it's all based on reputation, and I don't have one star yet, but it should be a bit easier to land a lower league job when you're first starting out, otherwise what's the point? 

Could you raise this here please - https://community.sigames.com/forum/696-football-manager-2020-pre-release-beta-bug-forum/

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37 minutes ago, ceefax the cat said:

Can you link me to a relevant video? If there's an idea in your 415 that solves the problem of 3 at the back systems that would be fantastic. I very much doubt there is though! I'd love to be wrong.

If you set up an extreme tactic and it caused wingbacks to have tonnes of space to cover in a back 4 then great I suppose. But having beaten my head against a wall trying to get back 3's and 5's to work properly on FM19 I know there's an issue with it.

Spot on.

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53 minutes ago, RocheBag said:

Spot on.

That's the 415 in question (in actual fact, a very attacking 4-1-3-2) which, as I thought it might, has a high mentality and goes all-out to exploit counterpressing etc so yes, the wingbacks are going to end up high up the pitch participating in the counterpress and trying to chase down counterattacks. Also, what you didn't mention was that they're inverted wingbacks! So when the ball is turned over they're in the middle of the pitch and of course will end up having to press / counterpress in the middle. There are also wingers in front of them, albeit attacking IF's, so once the opposition do have possession, your defensive shape is a wide 4-1-3-2 with plenty of midfielders to help out with defending.

It doesn't really have anything to do with the the issue of wingbacks not helping the team to defend in a back 5 at all. As it stands, the only way to get a half-pleasing effect is use ML/R and just accept that wingers are going to get in behind them quite a lot.
 

Edited by ceefax the cat

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I played a 3 at the back tactic with WBs in the beta and the WBs stayed in line with the CBs while the CMs ran to press the AI's wide players, much like in FM19. Having said that, I played with a very low line of engagement, so it might have played into that.

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It's probably not the attribute per se, it's more that the WBs cover unrealistic amounts of ground in the match engine. 

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I've been playing Football Manager since it used to be called Championship Manager in the season of 96/97.

Even then it was more balanced than it is now.

I have to say this is the most unbalanced and unrealistic FM I have ever played.

3 Seasons in and every single season the same happens. I play with FC Porto, and it's impossible to win the league. SL Benfica always wins it even though I completely destroy them in every match we face each other.

My results against them are always 3-0, 4-0 and even 5-0. But what happens is that SL Benfica doesn't lose any points other than the points they lose against me, meaning they always win every single match and finish top of the league with an unrealistic 90+ points in 34 games!

At the end of the third season, finished second place in the league one point from first place. I won the Portuguese Cup (second cup won that season) I got told off by the board for failing to win the Cup I had just won (I know right?!?). Got sacked!

 

Very real! :D

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42 minutes ago, endtime said:

It's probably not the attribute per se, it's more that the WBs cover unrealistic amounts of ground in the match engine. 

This is THE BIGGEST fundamental issue with all the FM installments up to date for me, that the roles and tactics define how the players behave in the ME more than their attributes. I always said, at some point SI needs to get rid of the player roles. Player specific instructions can stay, that part is realistic, but those should only have marginal effect on how the players behave. A player with low work rate and stamina should NOT be able to run all over the field just because you put him in box-to-box midfielder role for example.

If a player has the fitting attributes, then he should play like a box-to-box midfielder if you put him in there as a central midfielder. 

Same goes for those green circles about the positional versatility. If they only define only familiarity with a certain position, and have some marginal effect on the performance, that's fine, but if the player has the right attributes to play on both wings, you shouldn't be retraining him for months for him to play on the other wing. Let the attributes decide.

Edited by bleventozturk

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3 hours ago, ceefax the cat said:

goes all-out to exploit counterpressing etc

An attacking 415 that sits with a standard line of engagement and a standard defensive line. I just thought I'd need to correct you because you are assuming things that weren't the plan. However, like i said i also have a used a 532 which used wingbacks to close down the flanks.  As i have said before if you guys feel so strongly that wingbacks are not pressing or closing down or doing whatever you feel they aren't doing, then raise a bug. If its an issue it will be reviewed, otherwise there may be ways of doing it. My point was simple, wingbacks do press and it can be done. And it was possible in FM19, even with a 532.

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Anybody seeing links/partnerships forming between players?

 

Start of season 2 and yet to see a single one dispite playing the same 11 almost every match

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7 minutes ago, waldywaldy said:

Anybody seeing links/partnerships forming between players?

 

Start of season 2 and yet to see a single one dispite playing the same 11 almost every match

Nah, it's a bug 

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I've played about 40 matches in my career. My CBs and MCs are playing together from the start of the season. But the chemistry lines didn't appear yet. Is there any problem about that?

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Loving the new features but the match engine feels really bad this year. Hope most of it is resolved for full release or soon after as really not sure whether I can enjoy it otherwise.

 

Main issue is with direct passes. It seems like every pass is either a switch from full back to full back or a ball lumped over the top. 

I seem to be just kicked over by every half decent midfielder I come accross, for the striker to run into uncontested, only to miss the one on one 8/10 times. Of course when you face top strikers they probably score 1/3 of them.

Without almost playing the match engine rather than "football" I don't really see a way to prevent it. I don't really fancy playing deep 442 with counter TBF.

I realise the missed one on ones is probably an acknowledgement that the situation occurs too often so hopefully it's an issue they are sorting.

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3 minutes ago, srvngrc said:

I've played about 40 matches in my career. My CBs and MCs are playing together from the start of the season. But the chemistry lines didn't appear yet. Is there any problem about that?

See above :D

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1 hour ago, bleventozturk said:

This is THE BIGGEST fundamental issue with all the FM installments up to date for me, that the roles and tactics define how the players behave in the ME more than their attributes. I always said, at some point SI needs to get rid of the player roles. Player specific instructions can stay, that part is realistic, but those should only have marginal effect on how the players behave. A player with low work rate and stamina should NOT be able to run all over the field just because you put him in box-to-box midfielder role for example.

At the same time, I personally have Always disliked positioning related PPMs, in particular Forward movement related ones, to influence overly much. To me a Player with the PPM "gets Forward at every opportunity" was the Definition of tactical ill-discipline, considering that for every run he makes, he needed to be covered for (and his Position / Zone of the pitch was laid bare). It's the Lucio PPM. And yet, the Research really seems to love handing it out like it's free candy from heaven (in particular for wide defenders). These kinda PPMs in particular make Things also massively more complicated for the AI.... Which is another angle to consider in this. If the game were to turn into one where individual Player traits take over, the AI (Managers) would Need to become MUCH MORE SOPHISTICATED than it is now. As that's even more of a puzzle box, with a dozen different flavors of vanilla to consider when Picking a Player, starting Right with Squad development and Transfer markets. 

IIRC low work rate, Stamina et all mainly affect defensive Engagement, or at least far more pronouncedly. A player meanwhile encouraged to make a lot of runs in possession does so mainly acccording to his instructions/role. I did Editor Experiments in the past at least and edited sides to have low single Digit values accross the Squad. This meant they were oft struggling to win the ball back, and this also showed in the running statistics. On one release I got various good sides embroiled into a relegation battle that way. I still have one Video from a much older release of this, FM 2012. Note how despite Holding their line, None of the edited Bayern players actually puts the ball carrier under pressure at all during that entire sequenc (which had Nothing to do with tactical instructions).. Usually the Opposition would have it very easy to Play balls behind their line with that much time, but the Urawa side was likely just on time wasting / contain mode. Doing the same Thing on the current Releases would be actually interesting, in particular when coupled with the Gegenpress Presets...

Edited by Svenc

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Talking about gegenpress and presets. I don't mind presets for newcomers, but I do when particular presets are just too viable to the point that no other tactic is viable. See FM19. It takes away every tactical aspect out of the game. Also presets remove the encourage to learn and read into FM tactics how it was in the past. It's just for lazy people who don't want to learn the game basically. 

In addition to gegenpress. I am seeing this trend again, and tried myself without the actual presets trying to exploit this ME version. Actually came to the conclusion that it's working pretty good again. Actually the best tactic I've tried since the release of the BETA. Why is this tactic so good? I'm really curious how this pends out in the full release, because FM19 was the most boring version I've ever played if we're talking about tactics. It's also a ugly looking playstyle in the ME. You see 3-4 players applying pressure and all of a sudden you're creating a clear cut chance because of a counter or a long ball. 

Edited by Sanel

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General usability question: Does anybody know how to control which monitor FM displays on when running in full screen mode. FM 19 displays on the left of three monitors, whilst FM 20 displays on the centre one (which is my primary display).

 

I'm not concerned, as I'd prefer it to display on the centre monitor anyway. I'm just curious how I managed to display FM 19 on a different screen, in case I want to move it in the future.)

 

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28 minutes ago, Sanel said:

It takes away every tactical aspect out of the game.

There were and are plenty of ways to be successful without using a gegenpress though. It does seem too powerful right now, which to me is more due to the behaviour of defensive players under pressure (and the AI simply not reacting to the match). I suspect we will see this toned down somewhat in the next patch. 

 

3 minutes ago, DementedHammer said:

FM 19 displays on the left of three monitors, whilst FM 20 displays on the centre one (which is my primary display).

Windows Key + shift + left/right arrow should move to the monitor to the left/right monitor. I only have 2, but I assume it works for 3 monitors too.

On the game,I just saw my striker chip an advancing goalkeeper! I swear I never saw this once in FM19! Nice. 

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2 hours ago, Rashidi said:

An attacking 415 that sits with a standard line of engagement and a standard defensive line. I just thought I'd need to correct you because you are assuming things that weren't the plan. However, like i said i also have a used a 532 which used wingbacks to close down the flanks.  As i have said before if you guys feel so strongly that wingbacks are not pressing or closing down or doing whatever you feel they aren't doing, then raise a bug. If its an issue it will be reviewed, otherwise there may be ways of doing it. My point was simple, wingbacks do press and it can be done. And it was possible in FM19, even with a 532.

Can you show me such a 5-3-2 then?  You could shut this down for good with 1 example

Edited by ceefax the cat

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9 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

There were and are plenty of ways to be successful without using a gegenpress though. It does seem too powerful right now, which to me is more due to the behaviour of defensive players under pressure (and the AI simply not reacting to the match). I suspect we will see this toned down somewhat in the next patch.

There are now as well, but why bother if gegenpress is 10x more effectively? Just look around on the forums and watch people posting tactics they consider they are good. They all use counter + counterpress + higher defensive line + more urgent pressing/extremley urgent pressing. See two pages back the guy who posted his Bayern tactics using similair settings. Or ''I'm using last year tactics and they are working really good''. Ofcourse they do. Seeing this kind of stuff gives me a headache reading they revamped the ME because this shows they clearly didn't.

Sorry for being harsh here but this is just mind-bobbling to me coming from a dev standpoint. As a dev I would put this in my top-5 list for fixing it for the next release because people were abusing it. From a player standpoint I just want to have a balanced ME where ccc's are important, just like they were in the past. The FM 12/FM18 ME's were really good.

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2 minutes ago, Sanel said:

There are now as well, but why bother if gegenpress is 10x more effectively?

Because you want to play differently? I had a lot of fun in FM19 playing pure counter attacking football, it was great. Admittedly if all you care about is winning, you are right. Why bother. Do not get me wrong, I am not saying there is no issue, just playing devil's advocate!

4 minutes ago, Sanel said:

The FM 12/FM18 ME's were really good.

I would argue that FM19 was the best ME we have had. They all have their flaws though, and ways to cheese them. FM18 was 3 strikers, for example. The AI could not handle it. 

Right now I would say to keep in mind we are not at full release. SI will almost certainly release a patch on release. I shall reserve final judgement until then. 

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9 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

FM18 was 3 strikers, for example. The AI could not handle it. 

I have to admit I almost forgot that. :D truth is that I don't like these so-called 'overpowered tactics' so I never used that. 433 (with wingers) and an 4312 were really viable too as I can remember. I consider the ME good if you are not forced a certain playstyle. 

Edited by Sanel

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38 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

There were and are plenty of ways to be successful without using a gegenpress though. It does seem too powerful right now, which to me is more due to the behaviour of defensive players under pressure (and the AI simply not reacting to the match). I suspect we will see this toned down somewhat in the next patch. 

On the contrary, I never won with gegenpress. So much so, it makes me wonder how people are getting those results tbh. 

 

So, yeah, I disagree that the presets are overpowered. They're necessary IMO, for helping newer and casual players from getting straight into the game. If anything, they could be tweaked to be more optimal, so that there are less tactical issues (i.e. have both midfielders sit in a 4-2-3-1 high/wide) and so on.

Wouldn't mind seeing more presets as well, for more formations. That would allow a lot of people to focus on the man management and recruitment parts instead - I know that might sound daft, but this is a wide game and not everyone is into the tactical stuff.

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10 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

I go to a player's Development --> Training screen and click on discuss new trait.

1742757907_trainingbug.thumb.jpg.0b1930e1bc8d274ab1b665aae872f558.jpg

Where is it?

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Just now, Deisler26 said:

1742757907_trainingbug.thumb.jpg.0b1930e1bc8d274ab1b665aae872f558.jpg

Where is it?

"Discuss New Trait" under Player Traits? It's underneath the physical attributes.

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2 minutes ago, Deisler26 said:

1742757907_trainingbug.thumb.jpg.0b1930e1bc8d274ab1b665aae872f558.jpg

Where is it?

Literally says "Discuss new trait" on the screen, middle of the screen about two thirds to the right 

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Just now, Johnny Ace said:

Literally says "Discuss new trait" on the screen, middle of the screen about two thirds to the right 

Can't see the wood for the trees sometimes

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3 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

"Discuss New Trait" under Player Traits? It's underneath the physical attributes.

Cheers!

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I think rather than getting wound up over the maddening frustration of this ME build, I'll close the door on the BETA and take a break until release. No point labouring the same points on here when both users and developers are on the same page. Fair play to SI, that was a good post from Nic. Looking forward to the 19th. 

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49 minutes ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

So, yeah, I disagree that the presets are overpowered. They're necessary IMO, for helping newer and casual players from getting straight into the game. If anything, they could be tweaked to be more optimal, so that there are less tactical issues (i.e. have both midfielders sit in a 4-2-3-1 high/wide) and so on.

I never use the presets, so I cannot really comment on them. And I agree that they are definitely necessary for new players, or even players who do not want to spend lots of time become an expert in tactics. Some people just enjoy playing without spending too much time. I have noticed that it is very easy in the current ME to generate lots of pressure on an AI defence and force mistakes using a high press. Which is what a high press is supposed to do, mind. I do not think it is a problem of the press, but of the defensive decision making, and the AI failing to adapt well to what a user is doing. 

You make another excellent point though. It is all well and good for someone who is good at making tactics and spotting how to read what is happening to say the game is too easy. This is not true of the majority of players. FM has to cater for such a wide variety of people that someone will always be unhappy. Personally, I like the current ME. There are some issues I expect to get sorted on release, but in general it is in good shape. There are not huge flaws this year that we have seen before (for example striker movement being very poor in FM19 at release). 

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Won the league first season with Arsenal (Leave it) and rather than just be a happy abentee owner, big Stan Kroenke has suddenly decided its real important that we start to 'Make the most of set pieces'...just feels like it's there for the sake of it no? Alongside play attractive football (whatever that really even means) and don't sign players over 30. Feels like a completely abritary addition of 3 new targets randomly selected considering their disparate nature. Plus you'd be more likely to be given more freedom after overperforming.

Also if anyone wants to respond to my thread in the staff responsibilty bug forum about u23 managers not actually picking unfit players even when they are set to do so, that'd be swell. Just to know it's being looked into.

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Anybody else noticed the high number of a.i generated staff with crazy attributes? Especially with technical, loan and HOYD.

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40 minutes ago, kidd_05_u2 said:

Hey, for those like me who have been discontent with the ME 2000, I think you should read this from SI staff:

 

It may seem naive to some, but now I feel much better about the release date update. Miles already said this will be the best FM ever. Let's hope they can deliver :thup:

Over 10 internal Match Engines.. Its actually worrying to hear that. Last year the Beta ME was close to being the best ever, come release it was dreadful. If they're making so many changes without proper testing then its no wonder the match engines have been holding this game back for so many releases

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Anyone else finding 4231 genepress attacking way overpowered I’ve gone the first 15 games in the league unbeaten and only conceded 6 goals with Plymouth Argyle 

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55 minutes ago, kidd_05_u2 said:

Hey, for those like me who have been discontent with the ME 2000, I think you should read this from SI staff:

 

It may seem naive to some, but now I feel much better about the release date update. Miles already said this will be the best FM ever. Let's hope they can deliver :thup:

Honestly, without being rude, this just doesnt say much to me. It reads almost PR like. Im being sceptical simply based on what Ive seen from the previous years and now as well. 

Quote

we strongly believe that the release version of the ME is going to be the best we’ve ever released. 

Well they say this every year and I would be surprised if it wasnt the case. 

Quote

We have had over 10 different internal MEs since the beta has gone out that all have required intensive testing and analysis. 

Just like the other guy said, Im more worried if this is the case. Also whats the point of a beta if people arent testing the same ME? 

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Yes it's more concerning that the beta was in such bad shape and they've gone through 10 version since, this close to release, than reassuring.

It might just click in the next 2 weeks I suppose, but I get the feeling that would be a major stroke of luck

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13 minutes ago, Double0Seven said:

Also whats the point of a beta if people arent testing the same ME? 

Good point... not much point us continuing to test this unless they release another patch surely? All the most glaring problems have long been reported

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11 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

You have no idea about the testing so don't insult the QA staff by saying its not been tested properly. 

He worded it a bit harsh, but the beta has been out for 10 days. How much can you properly test in one day (10 ME/10 days) ? SI themselves said that a single change has many effects and the ME is incredibly complex. Unless the SI employees run on caffeine and are testing 24/7 (I hope not) you cannot fault the man for thinking that. 

Let's be realistic here. A match engine a day seems rather hard to properly test. Of course I have no idea how the team works, but it seems rather impossible to do this in a day given what SI has said about the ME. 

I find it rather harsh to straight assume that this guy meant it as an insult. He overreacted for sure, but a mod taking words out of his mouth is also overreaction in my opinion. You want us to be nicer here (and we should) but cmon a mod has to set the right example. 

 

Edited by Double0Seven

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20 minutos atrás, Double0Seven disse:

He worded it a bit harsh, but the beta has been out for 10 days. How much can you properly test in one day (10 ME/10 days) ? SI themselves said that a single change has many effects and the ME is incredibly complex. Unless the SI employees run on caffeine and are testing 24/7 (I hope not) you cannot fault the man for thinking that. 

Let's be realistic here. A match engine a day seems rather hard to properly test. Of course I have no idea how the team works, but it seems rather impossible to do this in a day given what SI has said about the ME. 

I find it rather harsh to straight assume that this guy meant it as an insult. He overreacted for sure, but a mod taking words out of his mouth is also overreaction in my opinion. You want us to be nicer here (and we should) but cmon a mod has to set the right example. 

 

Exactly, he doesn't know, so for him to say it's not been tested properly (his own words) is neither backed up by any knowledge nor wanted (such digs are specifically mentioned in the house rules and frankly we've had to ask people to stop this so many times there's very little tolerance for some we already take a dim view of)  

Any change, automatically makes it a new engine, as for how much they are testing, the entire team will have more than earned time off when it cools down) the beta might have been out 10 days but they have been working on it much longer and will have targeted various fixes for various points. 

Lots of people have been asking for more information and what plenty won't know is that moderators have been taking that call up with SI, so for some of the very same people to the criticise SI for giving an update seems counterproductive and is only likely to see less information in future, and have some of us be less likely to take up that push

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11 minutes ago, Double0Seven said:

He worded it a bit harsh, but the beta has been out for 10 days. How much can you properly test in one day (10 ME/10 days) ? SI themselves said that a single change has many effects and the ME is incredibly complex. Unless the SI employees run on caffeine and are testing 24/7 (I hope not) you cannot fault the man for thinking that. 

Let's be realistic here. A match engine a day seems rather hard to properly test. Of course I have no idea how the team works, but it seems rather impossible to do this in a day given what SI has said about the ME. 

I find it rather harsh to straight assume that this guy meant it as an insult. He overreacted for sure, but a mod taking words out of his mouth is also overreaction in my opinion. You want us to be nicer here (and we should) but cmon a mod has to set the right example. 

 

Exactly. The statement is baffling. Updates for the match engine stop after the march update every year. We're told this has to happen so that the next release can be "the best FM ever" and now they're saying there's been 10 internal updates within weeks. 

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