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Dan Ormsby

[Scotland] (Official) League Specific Issues

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Couple of Betfred Cup fixture issues (minor in the overall scheme of things): semi finals are not on the same weekend (Sat/Sun) instead successive Saturdays and the final is scheduled for a Saturday when it is always played on a Sunday.

I've already uploaded a save game in relation to the Unknown Referee - European game issue. Let me know if you need anything more.

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On 30/11/2019 at 07:51, djchapsticks said:

Disregard that - I'm an idiot.

I just presumed that the Qatar WC had been moved as with previous editions. Didn't realise it had been coded in this version. :lol:

Yep - We're just assuming the World Cup isn't getting moved at this point. 

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On 30/11/2019 at 11:50, gothenburg83 said:

Couple of Betfred Cup fixture issues (minor in the overall scheme of things): semi finals are not on the same weekend (Sat/Sun) instead successive Saturdays and the final is scheduled for a Saturday when it is always played on a Sunday.

I've already uploaded a save game in relation to the Unknown Referee - European game issue. Let me know if you need anything more.

Thanks for this - was logged internally by another QA Tester a few weeks ago. 

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2 hours ago, Christopher Lewis said:

Thanks for this - was logged internally by another QA Tester a few weeks ago. 

Excellent - would updates to fix scheduling issues such as this need a new game or would they work on existing saves?

Thanks

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46 minutes ago, gothenburg83 said:

Excellent - would updates to fix scheduling issues such as this need a new game or would they work on existing saves?

Thanks

Almost certainly new saves. We're (on Rulegroups) a bit limited in what we can fix during games as we don't want to be adding stuff that breaks something else. 

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Whenever I take over East Kilbride as a newly promoted club after holidaying a season, I am not entered into the BetFred Cup.  When I play as Kelty Hearts, I am entered.  My understanding of the rules of this cup is that all promoted clubs should be entered.

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48 minutes ago, DazRTaylor said:

Whenever I take over East Kilbride as a newly promoted club after holidaying a season, I am not entered into the BetFred Cup.  When I play as Kelty Hearts, I am entered.  My understanding of the rules of this cup is that all promoted clubs should be entered.

This is a known issue I believe. Thanks for raising. 

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On 02/12/2019 at 14:38, Christopher Lewis said:

Almost certainly new saves. We're (on Rulegroups) a bit limited in what we can fix during games as we don't want to be adding stuff that breaks something else

Have these updates made it into version 20.2.0 which has just been released?

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13 hours ago, gothenburg83 said:

Have these updates made it into version 20.2.0 which has just been released?

I think so. I've just done a quick test of the first few seasons and they all have the final on a Sunday and then the Semi Finals on consecutive days. 

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24 minutes ago, Christopher Lewis said:

I think so. I've just done a quick test of the first few seasons and they all have the final on a Sunday and then the Semi Finals on consecutive days. 

Excellent, thanks for the reply.

Separately (and on a different matter!), was there a data update with 20.2.0? Looks like the Spurs change of manager hasn't made it, unless I have missed something.

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20 minutes ago, gothenburg83 said:

Excellent, thanks for the reply.

Separately (and on a different matter!), was there a data update with 20.2.0? Looks like the Spurs change of manager hasn't made it, unless I have missed something.

There was no data update with 20.2.

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Apologies if raised already. When playing as Celtic, after winning the Scottish Cup, a message shows listing those awarded a medal for playing at least one game. However, players on loan at other clubs who never played in the cup for Celtic but did play for other clubs are awarded a medal, and it shows in their career history. As a result, some 16/17 year olds who played one scottish cup tie and were knocked out when on loan are getting credited with having played for Celtic, and get a medal. 

Don't know if this applies across all leagues or only in Scotland but thought to raise. 

Thanks

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This one is fixture related.

Playing as Celtic, start of third season. In all three seasons the first game v Rangers is at Ibrox. However, in reality this always switches, so that if Rangers play Celtic at Ibrox first in season 1, the first old firm game in season 2 is at Celtic Park. This pattern is repeated season after season to prevent a scenario where one old firm team always has to go to the other post split. From memory, this was accurately reflected in all previous FM iterations. Evidence can be found in SPFL fixtures for previous seasons irl. 

Another unrelated point I have noticed is that when listing teams who have qualified for Europe and/or listing qualification places, the message always has nothing underneath Europa League II, so even though teams qualify it doesn't show the number to have qualified/how many places are allocated. Teams have been going into the competition but the news item only details the C.league and E.league, under E.League 2 it is blank. 

Thanks

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On 07/12/2019 at 21:19, joe5p said:

Playing as Celtic, start of third season. In all three seasons the first game v Rangers is at Ibrox. However, in reality this always switches, so that if Rangers play Celtic at Ibrox first in season 1, the first old firm game in season 2 is at Celtic Park. This pattern is repeated season after season to prevent a scenario where one old firm team always has to go to the other post split. From memory, this was accurately reflected in all previous FM iterations. Evidence can be found in SPFL fixtures for previous seasons irl. 

I'll check with a coder if we ever did this because I'm actually not sure we did this. Would be a good thing for us to get working again though. 

 

On 07/12/2019 at 21:19, joe5p said:

Another unrelated point I have noticed is that when listing teams who have qualified for Europe and/or listing qualification places, the message always has nothing underneath Europa League II, so even though teams qualify it doesn't show the number to have qualified/how many places are allocated. Teams have been going into the competition but the news item only details the C.league and E.league, under E.League 2 it is blank. 

This is an issue I logged and I believe is with a coder to correct. It doesn't actually change the places thankfully. 

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hi im just wondering when we will be able to have the real fixtures in the spfl as currently i dont think there is a update for this as when i start a league the fixtures are wrong thanks 

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Sorry, raised this in league specific section when I think it is actually a coding error/bug that could extend beyond Scotland. Apologies if raised by others already. 

When playing as Celtic, after winning the Scottish Cup, a message shows listing those awarded a medal for playing at least one game. However, players on loan at other clubs who never played in the cup for Celtic but did play for other clubs are awarded a medal, and it shows in their career history. As a result, some 16/17 year olds who played one scottish cup tie and were knocked out when on loan are getting credited with having played for Celtic, and get a medal. 

Don't know if this applies across all leagues or only in Scotland but thought to raise. 

Thanks

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On 09/12/2019 at 21:41, joe5p said:

Sorry, raised this in league specific section when I think it is actually a coding error/bug that could extend beyond Scotland. Apologies if raised by others already. 

When playing as Celtic, after winning the Scottish Cup, a message shows listing those awarded a medal for playing at least one game. However, players on loan at other clubs who never played in the cup for Celtic but did play for other clubs are awarded a medal, and it shows in their career history. As a result, some 16/17 year olds who played one scottish cup tie and were knocked out when on loan are getting credited with having played for Celtic, and get a medal. 

Don't know if this applies across all leagues or only in Scotland but thought to raise. 

Thanks

That's a good spot. I'm not sure if it's just Scotland or for all but it is logged. Thanks.

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Been mentioned by another couple of posters but why is there no real life fixtures for SPFL, they usually are but not this game, still no one has answered this question.

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13 hours ago, jc1 said:

Been mentioned by another couple of posters but why is there no real life fixtures for SPFL, they usually are but not this game, still no one has answered this question.

I've answered that question in the data thread.

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1 hour ago, Stuart Milne said:

I've answered that question in the data thread.

Cheers

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On 18/12/2019 at 22:43, jc1 said:

Been mentioned by another couple of posters but why is there no real life fixtures for SPFL, they usually are but not this game, still no one has answered this question.

In my save. We had a tour of Australia but the following season my board can't afford a tour of Germany. 

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18 hours ago, StevehFC said:

In my save. We had a tour of Australia but the following season my board can't afford a tour of Germany. 

These tours are a joke and they've been hard coded in game for 3 years now, only time we go abroad is the winter break. You've got to keep starting a new game until you get one without a tour, such a hassle.

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On 20/12/2019 at 18:51, jc1 said:

These tours are a joke and they've been hard coded in game for 3 years now, only time we go abroad is the winter break. You've got to keep starting a new game until you get one without a tour, such a hassle.

The Tours and the friendly scheduling is something we're looking to improve. Although I'd be inclined to agree that we should maybe have the board ask you if you want a training camp or not, instead of just arranging it. 

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12 hours ago, Christopher Lewis said:

The Tours and the friendly scheduling is something we're looking to improve. Although I'd be inclined to agree that we should maybe have the board ask you if you want a training camp or not, instead of just arranging it. 

Thanks for the reply, I think only Rangers and Celtic go on tours due to their cash, the rest of Scottish teams tend to play local friendlies before any Europa or Betfred games., the winter break is when most go abroad for the weather.

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On 23/12/2019 at 21:51, jc1 said:

Thanks for the reply, I think only Rangers and Celtic go on tours due to their cash, the rest of Scottish teams tend to play local friendlies before any Europa or Betfred games., the winter break is when most go abroad for the weather.

Thanks for the info :)

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On 23/12/2019 at 21:51, jc1 said:

Thanks for the reply, I think only Rangers and Celtic go on tours due to their cash, the rest of Scottish teams tend to play local friendlies before any Europa or Betfred games., the winter break is when most go abroad for the weather.

Ross County, Kilmarnock, Aberdeen and Motherwell to name but 4 teams off the top of my head, went abroad in pre-season this season or last.

Please don't just use Hibs as an example for all of Scottish football. 

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Hi, have a fixture scheduling issue. Playing as Celtic, and a combination of scottish cup replays and euro qualification has meant a game has been scheduled during an international break. I was left with nine first team players for a derby v Rangers! 

There was only one cup replay which knocked this out. I know that congestion is part of football, but irl, the game would go post split rather than in the middle of an international break. Happy to post a save file if you think it would help. 

EDIT - It occurred during international break in March, one game before league split. 

Thanks

Edited by joe5p

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23 hours ago, Stuart Milne said:

Ross County, Kilmarnock, Aberdeen and Motherwell to name but 4 teams off the top of my head, went abroad in pre-season this season or last.

Please don't just use Hibs as an example for all of Scottish football. 

The point I'm making is not that they don't go abroad but it's the fact they're hard coded into the game, you fire up a new game and you have a pre season in Australia or maybe in Spain with 4 games against teams like Barcs, Espanyol etc, so before you get back to playing Betfred games your squad morale is low due to having 4 really hard friendlies. These camps should be an option, I'm getting fed up having to keep restarting the game until I get one that hasn't got a ore arranged training camp.

 

Ross Co, 5 days in Holland with 1 game arranged, Killie 5-6 days in Spain with 2 friendlies due to early Europa games. Aberdeen had 1 friendly in Cork around 6 days with all others being played in Scotland. Motherwell had a 4 day camp in Belfast.

Not really abroad is it, Holland maybe but in game it's pre arranged camps in Spain, Portugal, Australia, Germany all for around 10 days at a time, these should always be an option when you start a new game.

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On 28/12/2019 at 18:20, joe5p said:

Hi, have a fixture scheduling issue. Playing as Celtic, and a combination of scottish cup replays and euro qualification has meant a game has been scheduled during an international break. I was left with nine first team players for a derby v Rangers! 

There was only one cup replay which knocked this out. I know that congestion is part of football, but irl, the game would go post split rather than in the middle of an international break. Happy to post a save file if you think it would help. 

EDIT - It occurred during international break in March, one game before league split. 

Thanks

Hey - Can I get this save game? Would like to get this reviewed. Cheers. 

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13 minutes ago, Christopher Lewis said:

Hey - Can I get this save game? Would like to get this reviewed. Cheers. 

Hi Christopher, 

I uploaded the file there, but I have moved on a fair bit in game. It was the fixture dated Saturday 27th March 2021 v Rangers. The 16 players on International duty didn't return until Sunday 17th, so even moving by one day would have avoided the issue. As mentioned, it could also go post SPL split, but I think the game prevents that from happening. Thanks and sorry for not having a file closer to the time. 

File is called Joseph Kane - Celtic.fm

Joe

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Hello,

I was advised by the team on steam to post here.

Why does it always rain on me? 

I'm two season into my Hibs save and it's rained for almost all of the games(home & away) bar 3 or 4.  I know it rains a lot here but that's a tad extreme.  I was about to say we would develop webbed toes and fingers but then I remembered about Fife...

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7 minutes ago, The Miura said:

Hello,

I was advised by the team on steam to post here.

Why does it always rain on me? 

I'm two season into my Hibs save and it's rained for almost all of the games(home & away) bar 3 or 4.  I know it rains a lot here but that's a tad extreme.  I was about to say we would develop webbed toes and fingers but then I remembered about Fife...

Hi there, can you confirm for us either way whether you lied when you were 17?  Thanks.

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22 minutes ago, Dan Ormsby said:

Hi there, can you confirm for us either way whether you lied when you were 17?  Thanks.

All the time or I would never have got a girlfriend...or a job.  

I don't suppose you have a spare DeLorean lying around?

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6 minutes ago, The Miura said:

All the time or I would never have got a girlfriend...or a job.  

I don't suppose you have a spare DeLorean lying around?

:D 

I think this is likely just to be bad luck that it has rained quite so much, but if there is an issue there it is likely that something is set slightly wrong in data.  Please post about it here: 

Hope the sun comes out for you soon!

 

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14 minutes ago, Dan Ormsby said:

:D 

I think this is likely just to be bad luck that it has rained quite so much, but if there is an issue there it is likely that something is set slightly wrong in data.  Please post about it here: 

Hope the sun comes out for you soon!

 

Typical if it is just down to bad luck,  if I didn't have any bad luck I'd have none at all haha

Thank you.

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Posted (edited)

Fixture observations - Celtic Rangers home same day same time?

IRL Celtic and Rangers last played a league game at home on the same day at the same time in the 1970s. For policing reasons/resources, they never both play domestic league games at home on the same date at the same time. I know pre-split, the game generally reflects this. However, post split it throws up scenarios where both are at home. I know post split can be tricky depending upon which teams end up in either half of the table, but even if they were both to play on the same matchday at home, one would play Saturday, one Sunday, which I think has happened once or twice IRL. 

Fixture Observation 

This may be addressed when the fixtures start to switch the location of the first derby games annually (including Hibs v Hearts, Hamilton v Motherwell as well as Celtic v Rangers). It seems that IRL the SPL program has Celtic/Rangers (and all other teams who were in the league the previous season) playing 16 at home pre split one season, and 17 the next (as split is after 33). This is then reversed the following season, with the balance of derby games being what swings it. However, in game, this is not happening. In four out of five seasons in game, Celtic have had more away games pre-split, which contradicts what happens IRL. IRL this would rotate annually. I think it was fine in previous versions. Switching the balance year to year also protects against a more frequent potential scenario of a home/away imbalance across the league for all teams not just Celtic and Rangers. 

It seems the game regularly throws up a three way split across 12 teams of either 18, 19 or 20 home games a season, whereby 66% of the league are not playing the correct number of home games annually. In my last season, four teams played 20 home games, four played 19, four played 18. This could impact on revenue generated for smaller clubs. I know it happens now and again IRL, where one or two teams have an imbalance but four seems extreme. The game currently seems to take less account of balance than the real fixture list does.  If it helps, the SPL use the previous season's league standings to generate the fixtures based on top six and bottom six, with the promoted sides presumed to finish where the relegated sides were, they then generate the fixtures based on this by presuming the top six and bottom six will remain the same, and build in year to year reversal. This minimizes the likelihood of the issues described above. 

Medals observation (leagues and cups)

Players who have played enough games to qualify for a medal but left during the season are omitted from the list of recipients. IRL, they would still get a medal and should appear on the medal list if possible / it should show on their records in game. A player might play 20 league games in Scotland then leave in January. If they did, and their team won the league, they would get a medal. The game does not show this on the recipient list or in the players record. 

Also not sure of the rules in terms of players who play in games after the league is won. Would it not be across the 38 games rather than just to the point that it is won? At the moment a player who only plays for ten minutes in the first game of the season gets a winners medal, but a player playing all games after the date the league is won doesn't. They still played in the league during the season in which it was won. Could this be addressed by issuing league winner medals at the end of the league rather than at the point the title is secured?

Attendances - Away fans

Rangers reduced Celtic's allocation to around 800, but in game Celtic still take nearly 3,000. Vice versa when Rangers play at Celtic. I also noticed a few variations in that Celtic and Rangers often take a few thousand in game but then will only have 800 or so at e.g. Dundee. IRL this would be nearer the 3,000 mark. I know that this one is probably harder to code and very minor as it generally looks accurate and I know the game has to account for teams where home attendance has increased year on year in game. 

Thanks

Edited by joe5p

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On ‎04‎/‎01‎/‎2020 at 14:10, joe5p said:

IRL Celtic and Rangers last played a league game at home on the same day at the same time in the 1970s. For policing reasons/resources, they never both play domestic league games at home on the same date at the same time. I know pre-split, the game generally reflects this. However, post split it throws up scenarios where both are at home. I know post split can be tricky depending upon which teams end up in either half of the table, but even if they were both to play on the same matchday at home, one would play Saturday, one Sunday, which I think has happened once or twice IRL. 

We've got this logged at the moment - we should be able to avoid them playing at home on the same date. 

 

On ‎04‎/‎01‎/‎2020 at 14:10, joe5p said:

Medals observation (leagues and cups)

Players who have played enough games to qualify for a medal but left during the season are omitted from the list of recipients. IRL, they would still get a medal and should appear on the medal list if possible / it should show on their records in game. A player might play 20 league games in Scotland then leave in January. If they did, and their team won the league, they would get a medal. The game does not show this on the recipient list or in the players record. 

Also not sure of the rules in terms of players who play in games after the league is won. Would it not be across the 38 games rather than just to the point that it is won? At the moment a player who only plays for ten minutes in the first game of the season gets a winners medal, but a player playing all games after the date the league is won doesn't. They still played in the league during the season in which it was won. Could this be addressed by issuing league winner medals at the end of the league rather than at the point the title is secured?

We've got a bug logged for the first issue. The second one is a good point and raised with a coder. 

 

On ‎04‎/‎01‎/‎2020 at 14:10, joe5p said:

This may be addressed when the fixtures start to switch the location of the first derby games annually (including Hibs v Hearts, Hamilton v Motherwell as well as Celtic v Rangers). It seems that IRL the SPL program has Celtic/Rangers (and all other teams who were in the league the previous season) playing 16 at home pre split one season, and 17 the next (as split is after 33). This is then reversed the following season, with the balance of derby games being what swings it. However, in game, this is not happening. In four out of five seasons in game, Celtic have had more away games pre-split, which contradicts what happens IRL. IRL this would rotate annually. I think it was fine in previous versions. Switching the balance year to year also protects against a more frequent potential scenario of a home/away imbalance across the league for all teams not just Celtic and Rangers. 

I'm not too sure if we can do this but I'll check. 

 

On ‎04‎/‎01‎/‎2020 at 14:10, joe5p said:

Attendances - Away fans

Rangers reduced Celtic's allocation to around 800, but in game Celtic still take nearly 3,000. Vice versa when Rangers play at Celtic. I also noticed a few variations in that Celtic and Rangers often take a few thousand in game but then will only have 800 or so at e.g. Dundee. IRL this would be nearer the 3,000 mark. I know that this one is probably harder to code and very minor as it generally looks accurate and I know the game has to account for teams where home attendance has increased year on year in game. 

Again I'm not sure if we can realistically do this but I'll check as it is a very good neat detail. Thanks for the post. 

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 Summary:
 Season 2020/21 Motherwell finished 5th in the Scottish Premiership and News Item confirmed qualification for Euro II cup. Into Season 2021/22 and we're not in the competition.

Description of Issue: as above

Steps to Reproduce: n/a

Files Uploaded to the OwnCloud:  the well.fm

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On 11/01/2020 at 12:47, shavvied said:

 Summary:
 Season 2020/21 Motherwell finished 5th in the Scottish Premiership and News Item confirmed qualification for Euro II cup. Into Season 2021/22 and we're not in the competition.

Description of Issue: as above

Steps to Reproduce: n/a

Files Uploaded to the OwnCloud:  the well.fm

Hi there, thanks for providing the save game. The news item shouldn't be confirming qualification as Aberdeen winning the FA Cup correctly shifts the final league European spot up to 4th position.

Does the item appear immediately after the final league match of the season or sometime after? If you do have a save from before this match (the 16th May match vs Dundee United) could you upload it to our cloud service for us to investigate please? Thanks

 

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Hi Freddie

thanks for looking into that. I don’t have save file from that time to upload. Sorry. 
I appreciate your help. 
Stuart

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I have found that when playing the BetFred Cup Semi final the game seems to treat it as a home fixture for the home team. When using third party video ads, neutral venues don't result in the home teams ads showing in other competitions, but for some reason they do in the Betfred cup semi only. Only thing I can think of is that somewhere in the coding it hasn't been logged as neutral venue.

One other regular observation is in relation to semi final cup draws, not only those in Scotland. It is not uncommon to find that with two teams left in the hat that one team is drawn first (and would therefore appear as home team). Then when the second team is drawn, the first team out get bumped across to show as 'away'/ It only impacts the very last game drawn. Anyone else spotted this?

Thanks

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17 hours ago, joe5p said:

I have found that when playing the BetFred Cup Semi final the game seems to treat it as a home fixture for the home team. When using third party video ads, neutral venues don't result in the home teams ads showing in other competitions, but for some reason they do in the Betfred cup semi only. Only thing I can think of is that somewhere in the coding it hasn't been logged as neutral venue.

One other regular observation is in relation to semi final cup draws, not only those in Scotland. It is not uncommon to find that with two teams left in the hat that one team is drawn first (and would therefore appear as home team). Then when the second team is drawn, the first team out get bumped across to show as 'away'/ It only impacts the very last game drawn. Anyone else spotted this?

Thanks

If I understand correctly, the first issue appears to be related directly to using third party content?  Unfortunately that isn't something we support.  The second issue is not something I have come across.  Do you have a save demonstrating this issue?   

 

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Fancied a wee change so added a few players and changed the squad a bit with Hibs for a different challenge but once again it's nigh on impossible to get a start to the game where there isn't a pre set preseason training camp abroad with pre set games. So far today I've tried 7 times to start a game that doesn't have this pre set camp, Spain, Germany, Portugal, Denmark, Sweden and even bloody Australia with games against their top teams which I cannot change. Can someone please tell me why on earth these pre season camps are being hard coded into the game, why can we not organise a pre season camp ourselves instead of restarting the game multiple times just to get a game without one, get it sorted please.

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6 hours ago, jc1 said:

Fancied a wee change so added a few players and changed the squad a bit with Hibs for a different challenge but once again it's nigh on impossible to get a start to the game where there isn't a pre set preseason training camp abroad with pre set games. So far today I've tried 7 times to start a game that doesn't have this pre set camp, Spain, Germany, Portugal, Denmark, Sweden and even bloody Australia with games against their top teams which I cannot change. Can someone please tell me why on earth these pre season camps are being hard coded into the game, why can we not organise a pre season camp ourselves instead of restarting the game multiple times just to get a game without one, get it sorted please.

We've had these issues before mate and SI ignore it . 

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I gave up after 8 attempts and stuck with one in Austria as it was against teams that were ok for pre season, this has been going on for the past 3 years now.

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21 hours ago, jc1 said:

Fancied a wee change so added a few players and changed the squad a bit with Hibs for a different challenge but once again it's nigh on impossible to get a start to the game where there isn't a pre set preseason training camp abroad with pre set games. So far today I've tried 7 times to start a game that doesn't have this pre set camp, Spain, Germany, Portugal, Denmark, Sweden and even bloody Australia with games against their top teams which I cannot change. Can someone please tell me why on earth these pre season camps are being hard coded into the game, why can we not organise a pre season camp ourselves instead of restarting the game multiple times just to get a game without one, get it sorted please.

Have raised this as an issue.  Personally agreed that this isn't ideal and we're looking at a solution.

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7 hours ago, Dan Ormsby said:

Have raised this as an issue.  Personally agreed that this isn't ideal and we're looking at a solution.

:thup:

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Ignore

Edited by joe5p
Quoted wrong topic, revised below

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On 27/01/2020 at 12:00, Dan Ormsby said:

If I understand correctly, the first issue appears to be related directly to using third party content?  Unfortunately that isn't something we support.  The second issue is not something I have come across.  Do you have a save demonstrating this issue?   

 

Hi Dan, 

I appreciate the third party content point, but the issue is to do with the game not treating Hampden as a neutral venue specifically for the Betfred cup semi finals. The third party content has simply allowed this issue to come to light, rather than having any possible correlation with why the issue exists. 

For the draw, I can upload a file but it happens in real time in every draw rather than in one specific save or game. I will try to remember to save before next cup draw and then upload the file then. Thanks.

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I think the Challenge or Caramel Wafer cup needs amended on one small part.

In game a Reserve/Colt team is allowed a maximum of players over 21. When the format allows a maximum of a maximum of 2 over age players

Link to rules (See point 7.5):-
https://spfl.co.uk/admin/filemanager/images/shares/pdfs/Challenge Cup Regulations 2019-20.pdf 

 

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