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[England Premier Division] Data Issues

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On Liverpool's 'long throws' attribute:

Just heard a podcast with their Danish throw in coach, Thomas Grønnemark.

He said that Andrew Robertson is very bad at long throws (although he obviously improved after being coached by Grønnemark), and that Joe Gomez is the best long thrower in Liverpool.

Current ratings of 13 for Robertson vs 14 for Joe Gomez seem out of place in this context. Based on the length of Gomez' throw (37.2m) compared to other players he mentioned, I'd suggest having Gomez of around 18.

No idea about Robertson but maybe make him the worst at Liverpool.

Here's a link to the podcast. It's an hour long and in Danish so not sure it'll help much, though :)

https://podcasts.apple.com/gh/podcast/troels-bech-i-en-samtale-med-indkasttræner-thomas-grønnemark/id1118913012?i=1000475048211

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The 'Most overall goals by a player in a season' record is missing for Man CIty.

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14 hours ago, Nørbæk said:

The 'Most overall goals by a player in a season' record is missing for Man CIty.

A large overhaul of records in the DB was carried out in April, but thanks.

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11 hours ago, Sean Blinkhorn said:

A large overhaul of records in the DB was carried out in April, but thanks.

Awesome. Look forward to seeing the labour of the hard work :thup:

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I believe Philippe Sandler should also have US citizenship per this article. His US-eligibility is widely discussed.

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8 hours ago, Weston said:

I believe Philippe Sandler should also have US citizenship per this article. His US-eligibility is widely discussed.

And South African too, from the look of it! Cheers!

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Lewis Freestone (Brighton) is missing some details from his history.

He had a loan with St Albans City from Peterborough in the 2016/17 season and he made 2 league appearances without scoring after joining on 10/03/2017: https://www.stalbanscityfc.com/lewis-freestone/

He is also missing a loan with Nuneaton Borough from Peterborough in the 2018/2019 season where he made 8 league appearances without scoring after joining on 07/08/2018: https://www.pitchero.com/clubs/nuneatonboroughfc/teams/98603/player/lewis-freestone-2052091/51726

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Posted (edited)
On 22/05/2020 at 16:13, Nørbæk said:

On Liverpool's 'long throws' attribute:

Just heard a podcast with their Danish throw in coach, Thomas Grønnemark.

He said that Andrew Robertson is very bad at long throws (although he obviously improved after being coached by Grønnemark), and that Joe Gomez is the best long thrower in Liverpool.

Current ratings of 13 for Robertson vs 14 for Joe Gomez seem out of place in this context. Based on the length of Gomez' throw (37.2m) compared to other players he mentioned, I'd suggest having Gomez of around 18.

No idea about Robertson but maybe make him the worst at Liverpool.

Here's a link to the podcast. It's an hour long and in Danish so not sure it'll help much, though :)

https://podcasts.apple.com/gh/podcast/troels-bech-i-en-samtale-med-indkasttræner-thomas-grønnemark/id1118913012?i=1000475048211

"According to Gronnemark, Liverpool left back Andy Robertson has gone from a maximum throwing distance of 19 or 20 meters to 27 or 28, and this gives him many more options to escape pressure situations."

He's improved quite a lot though. I don't think he's our worst player in terms of throw ins at all. I agree that Gomez should have the highest rating in our team though.

 

From https://www.dw.com/en/the-throw-in-coach-how-one-man-wowed-jürgen-klopp-and-helped-change-the-game/a-52407577

Edited by OkMarius

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On 07/06/2020 at 11:22, OkMarius said:

"According to Gronnemark, Liverpool left back Andy Robertson has gone from a maximum throwing distance of 19 or 20 meters to 27 or 28, and this gives him many more options to escape pressure situations."

He's improved quite a lot though. I don't think he's our worst player in terms of throw ins at all. I agree that Gomez should have the highest rating in our team though.

 

From https://www.dw.com/en/the-throw-in-coach-how-one-man-wowed-jürgen-klopp-and-helped-change-the-game/a-52407577

Agreed that Robertson improved (which I also wrote in my post). But so did all the others probably so relatively he should still be in the deep end of the squad :)

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Posted (edited)

Heung Min-Son is severely underrated as a dribbler.

image.thumb.png.0728d63293ec3349d482801869ae4cd1.png

Of the fifteen 'wingers' in the Premier League top six - this is kind of subjective, but hey - Son completes the joint-third most dribbles, with the sixth best success rate. This shows that's he a pretty damn good dribbler by the standards of the top six wingers, certainly above average. The eye test will also tell you this. Son has a track record of excellent solo goals - most notably against Chelsea and Burnley - and will also frequently use his dribbling to open up space for shots in tight spaces.

And yet of the seven main attributes that influence dribbling, he's got the joint-lowest rating with Dan James. If you look purely at the technical (and mental) attributes, he's thirteenth. If you look purely at the physical attributes, he's joint-twelfth. His attributes don't reflect his real-life dribbling ability.

EDIT: As for what to change, I'd say all of those attributes could justifiably go up by a point, which would put Son on 108. Agility and pace could possibly both go up by two.

Son's player traits don't quite reflect his tendency to take players on with the ball at his feet. As Son's numbers show, he completes a high number of take-ons, and attempts even more. 'Runs With Ball Often' would probably suit him fairly well.

Son is also quite underrated as a goalscorer.

% of over/under-performance of xG since 14/15

Between the start of the 2014/15 season, and 1 April 2020, Son outperformed his xG by more than any other player in Europe's top five leagues. Let's look at his shooting-related attributes, compared to a few of those players, shall we?

image.thumb.png.bab4f8f45a8db1f4614ad7daa0ace55e.png

Of the eleven players in Europe with the highest xG over-performance, a list that Son leads - Son is again, joint-last. His finishing is joint-ninth, his technique is tenth, and his composure is tenth. The composure is particularly glaring - it was accurate two or three years ago, but Son is now a very composed forward with a good record in one-on-ones and in high-pressure games.

Now, you could argue that he outperforms those players because he's particularly elite at scoring from outside the box, rather than at converting chances inside the box. But his attributes don't reflect that, either - fifteen long shots is good, but not exceptional. Across England, France, Germany, Italy, and Spain, there's hundreds of players with at least 15 for long shots - 225 players, to be precise. 88 of those also have at least 15 technique. This means that among the players competing with Son for first place here, almost a hundred had equal or greater ability at shooting from distance. 

EDIT: As for what to change, Son's long shots should go up two or three points - he really is exceptional at shooting from outside the box - and his composure a couple of points. And as mentioned earlier, his technique could go up a point. His finishing is probably fine.

Son's traits are also odd here. He's known for shooting from range often, and yet he doesn't have the 'Shoots From Distance' trait. He makes runs in behind the opposition defence fairly frequently, which his trait 'Like Ball Played Into Feet' limits. I'm also not sure 'Shoots With Power' suits him: while he does shoot with power sometimes, he also likes placed shots across the keeper, and curled finishes from tight angles; and mechanically, his 10 strength means he's not good at doing so in-game.

Edited by Sophos

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This post won't be as detailed as my Son post, but I'd like to suggest some changes to some other Spurs players.

Harry Kane

+ 'Tries Long Range Passes'

According to Whoscored, Kane 'plays the ball of the ground often' and 'likes to play long balls.' This video demonstrates him doing so.

Lucas Moura

+ Important Matches (8 -> 14)

Lucas has a really good track record in big games for Spurs - most notably a brace against Manchester United, a late goal in Barcelona to go through to the Champions League knockouts, and his famous hat-trick in Amsterdam. He also scored on his Spurs debut, and in his first game for Jose Mourinho. His 8 rating for Important Matches, then, seems much too low, and could stand to be significantly increased.

- Teamwork (15 -> 12)

Lucas plays with his head down a lot, often going on dribbles or opting for poor shots when there's teammates in better positions. It's been a source of a lot of frustration for Spurs fans this season. He's also got a really low assist return for a winger with Son and Kane to aim for. His teamwork should probably be brought down to reflect this.

+ 'Tries To Play Way Out Of Trouble'

This trait is really perfect for Lucas. Whoscored record that he 'Gets Fouled Often,' and that's in no small part because he always tries to escape pressure through his dribbling skill. 

Giovani Lo Celso

+ 'Runs With Ball Often'

Lo Celso has attempted 4.2 dribbles per 90 this season, which is really quite high for a player who's mostly played as a central midfielder. 

Tanguy Ndombele

+ 'Runs With Ball Often'

+ 'Tries To Play Way Out Of Trouble'

+ 'Tries Killer Balls Often'

This one should be fairly self-explanatory.

 

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9 hours ago, Nørbæk said:

Agreed that Robertson improved (which I also wrong in my post). But so did all the others probably so relatively he should still be in the deep end of the squad :)

I doubt the entire team practised it as much as the fullbacks did though. No point in having Firmino work on his long throws.

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39 minutes ago, OkMarius said:

I doubt the entire team practised it as much as the fullbacks did though. No point in having Firmino work on his long throws.

You're probably right.

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On 08/06/2020 at 13:31, Sophos said:

EDIT: As for what to change, Son's long shots should go up two or three points - he really is exceptional at shooting from outside the box - and his composure a couple of points. And as mentioned earlier, his technique could go up a point. His finishing is probably fine.

EDIT: As for what to change, I'd say all of those attributes could justifiably go up by a point, which would put Son on 108. Agility and pace could possibly both go up by two.

Which of his attributes would you put down to allow this change?

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17 hours ago, Dan Ormsby said:

Which of his attributes would you put down to allow this change?

There's no reason Son's Current Ability shouldn't be increased. It's only 160, which makes him the twenty-second best winger in the world - I included anyone with at least 18 at AML or AMR in my search. He's fourteen points behind Sterling, and nineteen behind Salah and Mane - now you could certainly argue that those three are better than him, but that gulf seems excessive. 

Bumping Son up to somewhere around 168-172 CA wouldn't even put him in the top ten wingers in the world, and would keep him behind his 'rivals' in the Premier League. But it would allow a more accurate representation of his excellent dribbling and goalscoring skills. 

image.thumb.png.f76c3ea4d29c89bb0824e95cc184abe7.png

These changes would put him on 172 CA. 

I don't particularly think any of his attributes are too high - perhaps a point off of his teamwork or vision? His set-piece attributes, maybe, as he rarely seems to take free kicks or corners?

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16 minutes ago, Sophos said:

There's no reason Son's Current Ability shouldn't be increased.

image.thumb.png.f76c3ea4d29c89bb0824e95cc184abe7.png

 

I'm saying this not as an Arsenal fan - I'd be saying this were you describing a player from any team, even (or perhaps especially!) Arsenal - I'm saying this as a researcher and an employee of SI - I don't think you can be realistically expecting the Spurs researcher to be raising Son's CA by 10-12 points if he's previously deemed him to be at the level he's at as recently as our last data deadline in February, when there's only been a handful of games since then.  Fine to have an opinion and you've been very detailed in your reasoning, but in general we need to be assuming that a player's CA is a player's CA and any attributes raised will need others to be lowered.

Just looking at your suggestions, you're asking for pretty incremental changes anyway, apart from an increase to 18 for long shots, which I don't think is realistic or justified.  I don't think Son is unfairly rated in game and think the Spurs researcher has done a good job.  This is, after all, a bugs forum, for glaring errors in attributes and actual data errors.  There aren't any present here.

I'm sure the Spurs researcher will take your feedback into account when reviewing his squad ahead of next season, but I don't think you should be expecting much change.

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On 04/11/2019 at 15:27, swansongs said:

Premier League teams? Don't think so to be honest. Wouldn't be a regular for a lot of Championship teams, either, based on what I've seen.

;)

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11 hours ago, Deano565 said:

;)

Doing alright 8 months later, fair play. 

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I was trying to tell you guys how good he was then, now he's been given the run of games he's been able to show it.

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I think this is more a data issue than anything else - Bramley-Moore Dock Stadium was built in 2023 in my game but Everton never moved in (I'm currently in 2030). Save uploaded to 1355149 - Hansa Rostock.fm if you need it

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One for FM21 - Bruno Fernandes' penalty stat. It's currently set to 14, I think this should be closer to 18/19. He's scored 24 from 26 in competitive games since 2012/13, all bar one came from 2015 onwards. He's the best penalty taker at the club and only Milner, Noble and Milivojević spring to mind as having a similar consistency in the Premier League. Milivojević has 21 from 24 and is rated 17, Milner is also a 17 with 30 from 35 and Mark Noble is an 18 with 38 from 42.    

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Is solidarity mechanism counted as a transfer fee? 

Because if so, Manchester United payed 400 000 euros for Łukasz Bejger (when he moved from Lech Poznan).

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On 12/06/2020 at 12:24, Sophos said:

There's no reason Son's Current Ability shouldn't be increased. It's only 160, which makes him the twenty-second best winger in the world - I included anyone with at least 18 at AML or AMR in my search. He's fourteen points behind Sterling, and nineteen behind Salah and Mane - now you could certainly argue that those three are better than him, but that gulf seems excessive. 

Bumping Son up to somewhere around 168-172 CA wouldn't even put him in the top ten wingers in the world, and would keep him behind his 'rivals' in the Premier League. But it would allow a more accurate representation of his excellent dribbling and goalscoring skills. 

image.thumb.png.f76c3ea4d29c89bb0824e95cc184abe7.png

These changes would put him on 172 CA. 

I don't particularly think any of his attributes are too high - perhaps a point off of his teamwork or vision? His set-piece attributes, maybe, as he rarely seems to take free kicks or corners?

Personally, I agree with your logic on all of the above, but bearing in mind @Dan Ormsby's response, I'd say his balance and composure need to be changed the most, with the balance being the more important of the two. I'd also on the flip side argue that Son should have his dribbling/acceleration higher than his pace, because he seems to focus more on that. 

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On 06/08/2020 at 10:42, Moondog777 said:

possible to add Susana Ferreras to the Arsenal staff? regarded as top data scientist.

 

https://www.nacsport.com/blog/en-us/News/7-women-blazing-the-trail-for-aspiring-female-analysts-and-performing-at-the-highest-level

This article is over a year old and mentions she was part of Unai Emery's backroom team.  Do you have any evidence she remained at the club and is still there now, even after Emery left?  Will definitely add in if so.  Thanks.

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