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Simon Tipple

[England Premier Division] Data Issues

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3 hours ago, Nørbæk said:

Maybe Adama Traoré's strength attribute of 15 is up for increase? I've read people complaining about his FIFA20 rating of 15 which is equivalent to FM's 15.

15 makes him one point higher than e.g. De Gea who's at 14.

Looks like a beast to me. Maybe even a 20.

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I've not seen much of Wolves this season, but to offer the counter-argument I'd say he might not use his obvious upper body power in games all that well in the Wolves researcher's opinion.

The attribute's official definition is the ability to exert that physical force on an opponent to his benefit. I've seen muscly players, for instance when Kelechi Iheanacho piled on the muscle mass 12-18 months ago, find it a lot more difficult to handle their mass and strength and therefore be ironically more likely to be forced off the ball i.e. muscle-bound.

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17 hours ago, tomlcfc said:

I've not seen much of Wolves this season, but to offer the counter-argument I'd say he might not use his obvious upper body power in games all that well in the Wolves researcher's opinion.

The attribute's official definition is the ability to exert that physical force on an opponent to his benefit. I've seen muscly players, for instance when Kelechi Iheanacho piled on the muscle mass 12-18 months ago, find it a lot more difficult to handle their mass and strength and therefore be ironically more likely to be forced off the ball i.e. muscle-bound.

Could be, but that’s probably not any different than all other attributes (though likely not the case with Traoré).

if a player is the fastest in a team’s physical tests but never runs fast during matches (maybe because he’s a stationary target man), would you not rate him as being fast?

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On 23/12/2019 at 17:01, tomlcfc said:

I've not seen much of Wolves this season, but to offer the counter-argument I'd say he might not use his obvious upper body power in games all that well in the Wolves researcher's opinion.

The attribute's official definition is the ability to exert that physical force on an opponent to his benefit. I've seen muscly players, for instance when Kelechi Iheanacho piled on the muscle mass 12-18 months ago, find it a lot more difficult to handle their mass and strength and therefore be ironically more likely to be forced off the ball i.e. muscle-bound.

I tend to think of strength in terms of weight as much as how much they might bench. 

In your specific example that's potentially more a balance issue than a strength one, though.

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I laugh that Michael Antonio only has 16 strength on FM.

Easily one of the strongest players in the Prem. 

He's so underrated on FM and Hallers stats are not correct either. 

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It might seem a bit silly to post this after he just had a great game, but I think Trent deserves to have some of his abilities be a bit more "extreme". I'd say he has world class ability when it comes to passing, crossing, and technique (which is of course related to the other two skills). Only KDB can hit the same type of crosses Trent does in the league.

His first touch is also getting near "extreme" levels, with him showing over and over again how he can recieve extremely difficult passes in very refined ways.

I suggest raising his following attributes: Crossing 18 (17), Passing 17 (16), Technique 17 (15),  First touch 16 (15), Stamina 14 (13). On a sidenote, KDB also has 17 technique, but I believe it would be warranted to raise his to 18.

I still think that his acceleration, pace, flair and dribbling shouldn't be particularily high, as he's not the type of player who dances ahead of his opponents. He needs space to thrive.

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I'm not sure is this the correct thread,but I've just noticed Alan Shearer with "temporary" UID  1915386159 so it's the best to re-activate him by his original profile with UID 2005477 .

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20 hours ago, Rockywhu said:

I laugh that Michael Antonio only has 16 strength on FM.

Easily one of the strongest players in the Prem. 

He's so underrated on FM and Hallers stats are not correct either. 

Why does it make you laugh? You need to provide what adjustments you'd make, and back it up with evidence.

By "stats", do you mean his playing history, or more likely, his attributes?

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Christian Eriksen’s long shots and free kick ratings of 14 are low, imo.

He has scored many goals outside the box in both free play and on free kicks for both Spurs and Denmark during recent years (most recently yesterday for Spurs).

My guess is that you don't become the free kick taker of a team like Spurs if you don't have good abilities.

Imo both should be around 16-17 with maybe the advantage to free kicks.

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I think Stuart Webber's role at Norwich in game would be better reflected as director of football and not technical director.

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On 21/12/2019 at 09:50, jere_d said:

How do you justify ozil having 19; passing, vision, flair, composure and off the ball as well as 18 anticipation?

3 assists last season in all competitions last season, https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/mesut-ozil/leistungsdaten/spieler/35664/plus/1?saison=2018

14 the season before but i was under the impression historical achievements didn't play a major part

coupled with the fact he only has 2 this season I expect a major downgrade

also a lot of his assists are from corners and freekicks nowadays

 

I've watched him many times live at the emirates and his off the ball skills are nowhere near 19 he often drifts over to a wing in games against narrow packed defenses not the type of movement required when only the striker tends to get in the box. With 19 off the ball he should be finding space centrally when playing cam

Anticipation 18... 7 through balls last season, 4 interceptions (https://www.premierleague.com/players/4714/Mesut-Özil/stats?co=-1&se=210) not too sure what hes been anticipating, maybe that 350k contract was some brilliant foresight.

20191221090633_1.jpg

This one of your fake accounts @Pete Sottrel:D

I don't agree with all of this, but the reality is Arsenal are 12th in the league and various players will need to be downgraded.  Ozil is still a genius and is one of the best short passers of the ball and readers of the game I have ever seen.  But fair point that his actual statistics warrant a reduction in certain areas, as will most players.  Though I do think a lot of Arsenal's issues are down to lack of confidence, leadership, structure and discipline, rather than the players themselves all being bad.  I killed a lot of players leadership attributes in the last research cycle.  I guess the other things are a bit more difficult to account for.  But I'll have a good think about how best to do this and update things in the Arsenal file, including Ozil, accordingly.

 

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https://www.nufc.co.uk/news/latest-news/joe-white-signs-first-professional-contract-with-newcastle-united/

Not exactly an issue, but for the next update White ( ID:28127256 ) could have Zidane and De Bruyne added as idols.

https://www.nufc.co.uk/news/latest-news/anderson-proud-to-sign-first-pro-deal-with-boyhood-club/


Also add Newcastle Utd as Anderson's favourite club ( ID:28127254 )

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Posted (edited)

Hi guys, the data for Crystal Palace is very good.

I just wanted to suggest a few changes that could be made in some areas though.

Goalkeepers- Guaita's one on ones at 13 seems a tad low in comparison with Hennessey having 16. I would say increasing Guaita's one on ones to 14 and also dropping Hennessey's one on ones to 14 would be fairer as Hennessey I wouldn't say is any better one on one than Guaita who's pulled off some cracking one on one saves this season. Other than that I'd say the keepers are spot on.

Defenders- Scott Dann's passing at 14 seems too high to me, it puts him on a level with Sakho who's passing can be impressive at times, and also 4 higher than James Tomkins with 10 passing, which doesn't seem right as his passing is generally reliable and composed. I'd suggest dropping Dann's passing from 14 to 11 or 12, and also increase Tomkins passing to 11 or 12 as his passing is pretty good and on a par with Dann. Martin Kelly's passing at 12 seems quite high in comparison and would possibly be more suited to Tomkins passing of 10, as he's far more prone to dodgy passing mistakes.

Would an increase for Tomkins be possible predominantly in his marking and concentration? He's been our best defender for some time now, increasing his concentration to 13/14 would be more accurate as he's far less prone to lapses in concentration than Sakho, who also has 11 concentration. His marking increasing by 1 to 15 would make sense too. Ward could possibly do with a drop in his crossing ability aswell? I wouldn't say he's able to deliver crosses as well as Van Aanholt who has 14 crossing too. Possibly worth dropping down to 10/11 in truth, I haven't seen him cross successfully for a while. Van Aanholt's mental stats seem slightly harsh too, he's not a fantastic defender by any means but anticipation and positioning being rated as 8 is slightly too low for me. He often intercepts balls played out wide and proceeds to sprint forward catching teams off guard on the counter. His anticipation and positioning could do with being increased to 10, to highlight the fact he is far from an elite defender at premier league level but he has improved a lot defensively under Hodgson and huge defensive errors/lapses in concentration aren't as common anymore. If you need to compensate for them increases you could possibly justify dropping his tackling to 11, as he's not fantastic in the tackle. Other than that I'd say the defence are pretty much bang on.

Midfielders- Kouyate and McArthur could do with an increase in their determination attributes to be in line with Milivojevic at 16. They are all incredibly tenacious, work hard for the team and get stuck in all game running themselves into the ground. McArthur at 10 and Kouyate at 12 is definitely too low for players that never say die, even when we're losing or trying to hang onto a result. Kouyate and McArthur's finishing seems quite generous too and could possibly do with a drop to 9/10. McArthur's flair at 2 is definitely too low aswell, he's got a bit of flair in his locker at times! I would say at least 10 in line with Kouyate.

McArthur could also do with his passing going from 10 to at least 11/12, he's no worse with his passing than Kouyate or Milivojevic with 12 passing. Max Meyer's first touch is definitely too high at 18, he often receives the ball and his touch results in the opposition being able to dispossess him, I would say 14/15 would be plenty generous. Andros Townsend's dribbling is probably too high at 16 too, reduction to 14/15 would be better, as he doesn't often beat a man anymore, not near the levels he used to be capable of at least.

Other than the above I've mentioned the ratings are great. Keep up the good work and I hope that this helps a little.













 

Edited by cpfcrebel

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On 31/12/2019 at 16:43, Dan Ormsby said:

This one of your fake accounts @Pete Sottrel:D

I don't agree with all of this, but the reality is Arsenal are 12th in the league and various players will need to be downgraded.  Ozil is still a genius and is one of the best short passers of the ball and readers of the game I have ever seen.  But fair point that his actual statistics warrant a reduction in certain areas, as will most players.  Though I do think a lot of Arsenal's issues are down to lack of confidence, leadership, structure and discipline, rather than the players themselves all being bad.  I killed a lot of players leadership attributes in the last research cycle.  I guess the other things are a bit more difficult to account for.  But I'll have a good think about how best to do this and update things in the Arsenal file, including Ozil, accordingly.

 

I can only guess youre one of them ozil admirers but his leadership, workrate and determination should have been dropped years ago. He has been terrible for the last 2 seasons but his stats are not reflecting this. Its like rooneys last 2 3 seasons in the prem. You are being biased because he was a class player about 3 or 4 seasons ago before Plummeting in the last 2 seasons.

All the stats i mentioned are higher than de bruyne's who is better in every aspect of the game indicated in the stats.

but 19 stats in vital playmaking attributes for a player with 4 assists last season in a team with lacazette and aubameyang     -_-    there's only soo much overpowering to your favorite player that can be

Also big games and consistency i dont have the editor but my reports dont indicate "Dreads big matches" or "inconsistent player" so those stats must also be off.

The fact he was in and out of the side last season screams inconstancy.

The Outrageous performance in both finals and his unlikeliness to turn up to big games points to him having a low big game rating.... 

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2 minutes ago, jere_d said:

I can only guess youre one of them ozil admirers but his leadership, workrate and determination should have been dropped years ago. He has been terrible for the last 2 seasons but his stats are not reflecting this. Its like rooneys last 2 3 seasons in the prem. You are being biased because he was a class player about 3 or 4 seasons ago before Plummeting in the last 2 seasons.

All the stats i mentioned are higher than de bruyne's who is better in every aspect of the game indicated in the stats.

but 19 stats in vital playmaking attributes for a player with 4 assists last season in a team with lacazette and aubameyang     -_-    there's only soo much overpowering to your favorite player that can be

Also big games and consistency i dont have the editor but my reports dont indicate "Dreads big matches" or "inconsistent player" so those stats must also be off.

The fact he was in and out of the side last season screams inconstancy.

The Outrageous performance in both finals and his unlikeliness to turn up to big games points to him having a low big game rating.... 

Bit much, this post.  I'm not being biased and he isn't my favourite player.  I have rated him based on his ability at his best.  I already lowered his consistency rating. It is something I will consider again, as I will be with all other attributes for all other players.

Him and Emery didn't get on and he was clearly unhappy and was probably not applying himself in training as much as he should have been, hence being out of the team.  Hopefully Arteta will get the best out of him on a more regular basis.

I take it you watched the game last night?  And actually watched him and saw how well he played in general?  And are also aware of the stat that Ozil covered the most ground of the entire team? 

Don't want to get into an argument.  This isn't a discussion thread, it's a thread for bugs.  You clearly don't like the guy, fair enough.  I'll take your comments on board as I have already said I'd do.  Cheers!

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1 hour ago, Dan Ormsby said:

Bit much, this post.  I'm not being biased and he isn't my favourite player.  I have rated him based on his ability at his best.  I already lowered his consistency rating. It is something I will consider again, as I will be with all other attributes for all other players.

Him and Emery didn't get on and he was clearly unhappy and was probably not applying himself in training as much as he should have been, hence being out of the team.  Hopefully Arteta will get the best out of him on a more regular basis.

I take it you watched the game last night?  And actually watched him and saw how well he played in general?  And are also aware of the stat that Ozil covered the most ground of the entire team? 

Don't want to get into an argument.  This isn't a discussion thread, it's a thread for bugs.  You clearly don't like the guy, fair enough.  I'll take your comments on board as I have already said I'd do.  Cheers!

No need to argue he played well last game, I didn't check out the covered the most ground stats

I just cant understand how he's getting judge when playing his best (which was years ago) but the last 2 seasons aren't as relevant where hes been playing at his worst.

I guess the real question is; when does poor form actually become a players ability?

Is it the last season or is it past accolades that are taken into account when these stats are made.

 

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11 hours ago, jere_d said:

No need to argue he played well last game, I didn't check out the covered the most ground stats

I just cant understand how he's getting judge when playing his best (which was years ago) but the last 2 seasons aren't as relevant where hes been playing at his worst.

I guess the real question is; when does poor form actually become a players ability?

Is it the last season or is it past accolades that are taken into account when these stats are made.

 

Technically the attribute profiles we make are supposed to represent a player on his best day, with hidden attributes (consistency, pressure), morale, fitness etc. effecting how well they'll actually perform. But obviously multi-year spells of "poor form" ought to be reflected and unless there are serious excuses we can lay at a player's feet an attribute profile should reflect the player we're actually seeing, rather than the one we hope they might become again.

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On 23/12/2019 at 16:14, djole said:

Maybe his professionalism should be higher than 11 too? If he works out so much in the gym, he surely must be highly professional.

Media has been interested in his physique quite a lot lately. Just read an interview where he is quoted saying that he never/rarely goes to the gym.

Seems unlikely, though.

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3 hours ago, Nørbæk said:

Media has been interested in his physique quite a lot lately. Just read an interview where he is quoted saying that he never/rarely goes to the gym.

Seems unlikely, though.

Micah Richards used to use that line, too. It's even less convincing in Adama's case...

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Apologies as I dont' know if this has been reported or Saliba's weight is random but its way off in my current game:-

 

image.thumb.png.3c90e61fd23ae76f5a8f67a332a1a561.png

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Posted (edited)

Michael Owen is missing as clubicon at Liverpool FC.

Michael Owen is one the best players to come out of the Liverpool Academy. He did nothing but bang the ball into the back of the net during his time with the Reds. He is also one of the youngest players to score a goal for the Reds. 
He was one the best young players Liverpool had seen as he took some of the scoring burden off Robbie Fowler. He was also a leading player in the club's historic treble in the 2001 season when the Reds won the UEFA, FA and League Cups.
In the FA Cup final that year against Arsenal, Owen scored two goals to turn a 1-0 deficit into a 2-1 victory for the Reds.
That season, he also became the only Liverpool player to win the Ballon d'Or. 
It took him just 185 games to score 100 goals for Liverpool, and he finished his Liverpool career with 158 goals in 297 appearances—118 goals in the Premier League. He's Liverpools 4th all-time topscorer.

Edited by ^1Not^22^3B^4Reanimated

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1 hour ago, ^1Not^22^3B^4Reanimated said:

Michael Owen is missing as clubicon at Liverpool FC.

Michael Owen is one the best players to come out of the Liverpool Academy. He did nothing but bang the ball into the back of the net during his time with the Reds. He is also one of the youngest players to score a goal for the Reds. 
He was one the best young players Liverpool had seen as he took some of the scoring burden off Robbie Fowler. He was also a leading player in the club's historic treble in the 2001 season when the Reds won the UEFA, FA and League Cups.
In the FA Cup final that year against Arsenal, Owen scored two goals to turn a 1-0 deficit into a 2-1 victory for the Reds.
That season, he also became the only Liverpool player to win the Ballon d'Or. 
It took him just 185 games to score 100 goals for Liverpool, and he finished his Liverpool career with 158 goals in 297 appearances—118 goals in the Premier League. He's Liverpools 4th all-time topscorer.

He then signed for Manchester United...

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Posted (edited)

Missing Liverpool record: 

most league goals by a player in a league match:

5 Ian Rush Liverpool FC - Luton Town (Premier league)  date: 28 october 1983     Correction as another player set the record first:

5 - Andy  McGuigan v Stoke 4 January 1902 (Premier league)

This is propably also the record for most goals in a match as I couldn't find any other Liverpool-player scoring more goals in other matches like FA cup, League cup, CL, etc.

 

Edited by ^1Not^22^3B^4Reanimated

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Posted (edited)

Is the Man Utd for fastest goal correct? This is an overall record and not a league record.

It must be: 12 secondsBryan Robson v Burnley, League Cup, 26 September 1984

Most goals by a player in a match: 6 - Harold Halse v Swindon Town, 25 September 1911  (FA Charity Shield)

Most league goals by a player in a match: 5 - Andy Cole v Ipswich Town 4 march 1995 (Premier League)

Edited by ^1Not^22^3B^4Reanimated

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A few things to be added/corrected in a few PL teams:

Norwich
Tim Krul ID:859596 - Missing 3rd place World Cup 2014 (Date 12/07/2014)
Max Aarons ID:29173977 his debut needs added, vs Stevenage for the EFL Cup on 14/08/2018 and his first senior goal x Cardiff on 28/08/2018 for the EFL Cup also.
Todd Cantwell ID:29139576 senior debut on 17/01/2018 vs Chelsea for the FA Cup. His first senior goal was on 23/02/2018 for Fortuna Sittard vs NEC Njmegen for the Keuken Kampioen Divisie (Dutch 2nd Division).

Sheff Utd
Enda Stevens ID:52012309 - Missing competition of Senior Club Debut (Should be Irish Premier DIvision)
John Fleck ID:61003328 - Missing competition of Senior Club Debut (Should be Scottish Cup)
Jack O'Connell ID:28080955 - Missing competition First Senior Club Goal (Should be League One). Also his Jumping should be checked, and according to this article he is a Liverpool supporter
( https://www.thestar.co.uk/sport/football/sheffield-united/latest-blades-news/sheffield-united-defender-jack-oconnell-makes-blades-pledge-ahead-manchester-united-test-1303596 )
Chris Basham ID:28016310 - Missing Senior Club Debut competition (Should be National League - Conference)

Southampton
Maya Yoshida ID:45005892 - Missing competition of Senior Club Debut (Should be J. League Cup)
Moussa Djenepo ID:6601602 - Was born in Bamako (City of birth is missing). His Senior Club Debut was for Standard Liege vs Club Brugge for the Belgian First Division (on 27/08/2017).
His first Senior Goal was for Standard Liege vs Oostende (on 11/03/2018)

Tottenham
Hugo Lloris ID:8428653 - In the Pre Game Editor, it has First Senior Club Goal on 5/9/2015 for Sevenage vs Plymouth. I know it's a wrong data entry, but the only other ex Spurs player that scored in that match is Ogilvie ID:28088508, and that is not in his achievements.
Danny Rose ID:5134489 - World Cup 4th place date missing (14/07/18)
Davinson Sánchez ID:76023027 - Missing Champions League Runner Up in achievements (01/06/2019)
Harry Kane ID:28049320 - World Cup 4th place date missing (14/07/18)
Eric Dier ID:55032265 - In achievements it has WAFU Nations Cup instead of World Cup 4th place with England.
Dele Alli ID:29085579 - World Cup 4th place date missing (14/07/18)
Juan Foyth ID:14186894 - Missing Champions League Runner Up in achievements (01/06/2019)
Paulo Gazzaniga ID:67136579 - Missing Champions League Runner Up in achievements (01/06/2019)
Serge Aurier ID:85057643 - Missing Champions League Runner Up in achievements (01/06/2019)
Lucas Moura ID:19073564 - Should have Brazilian National First Division as competition for Senior Debut and First goal scored.
Ben Davies ID:28049754 - Missing Champions League Runner Up in achievements (01/06/2019)

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Posted (edited)

Re Liverpool

Think Pep Ljinders should be made Assistant Manager over Krawietz who should be lead data analyst or similar.

An article posted on the Athletic with PL confirmed as much today that he was asked by Klopp to come and be his number two, to have sole responsibility for devising and leading training sessions. Krawietz and him have daily meetings with Klopp but PK's main focus is the data/video analysis. Personally think this much is clear from watching games too - it's nearly always Ljinders in Klopp's ear on the sidelines with suggestions during games.

Link to the Athletic article - https://theathletic.co.uk/1513365/2020/01/08/liverpool-klopp-lijnders-interview/.

--

Can add Michael Edwards negotiating stat of 10 to the list of improvements, was about to delegate contract negotiations to him until I saw that.  The guys considered a genius amongst Liverpool fans - not asking for a mega score here, but this is the man that:

- Essentially sold Kev Stewart to Hull for £4m and Andy Robertson

- Got £15m for Jordan Ibe

- Bought Mo Salah for around £30m/£35m a few weeks before Neymar went for £220m

- Got around £20m for Dominic Solanke.

- Worked things well in background to secure the Oxlaide Chamberlain signing

 

 

Edited by wige

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Posted (edited)

@wige Regards the Assistant Manager position, unfortunately in the game you can only have the one. Historically because of the length of time Krawietz has been in the role alongside Klopp I have defaulted to him. Lijnders is only recently on the scene as AM and there has been nothing definitive as to who should take precedent. An AM is more than just tactical advice and to be fair 'tactically' its PK that gets his flip chart out to guide the subs as to their role in the game - so I'd argue both have tactical input. It would help though if you could cut and paste the article please.

I've already changed Edwards attributes.

Edited by diddydaddydoddy

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Posted (edited)

@diddydaddydoddy I've copied the full article below mate - warning it's very, very long - so I've extracted what I thought were best evidence for the argument ahead of the dotted line. Re Edwards stat - assume it's just a case that the data update patch hasn't been delivered yet?

--

Klopp needed a new assistant after Zeljko Buvac’s surprise exit in the April and it wasn’t a long shortlist he had drawn up.

“Jurgen called me really early,” Lijnders reveals.

“It wasn’t after the season, it was in the season. He told me he was searching for a new No 2. He explained that he wasn’t making a list, he said ‘I’m just asking you.’

“I never expected it. I answered ‘yes’ straightaway

--

The day he signed the contract to become Liverpool’s assistant manager was especially poignant.

--

The role Lijnders came back to was very different from the one he left behind. More demanding but also more rewarding as he was tasked with filling the void created by Buvac’s departure.

“In Holland they said I was going back to my old job but that wasn’t true,” he says.

“I became the No 2. If that hadn’t been the job Jurgen offered me then I wouldn’t have come back

--

What does a normal day in the life of Pep Lijnders look like?

“Early in the morning, I usually call Vitor Manos (elite development coach), I’ll text Jurgen and then come into Melwood. I have a meeting with Jurgen in his office to talk about training. What are we going to do? Who is delivering what and how is it going to look? Do we want to have Sadio (Mane) on the left wing or as the striker? Things like that.

“When the training is planned, I explain what the ideas behind it are to Andreas (Kornmayer, head of fitness and conditioning), Pete, Vitor, John (Achterberg, goalkeeping coach) and Jack (Robinson, assistant goalkeeping coach).

“I have to speak with the medical department and try to plan the session in more detail and I’ll put it in the tactics planner and work everything out in terms of how it relates to our next opponent. Pete will also give input.

-- Full article below (it's a really good read if you're a liverpool fan/geek)

Spoiler

Pep Lijnders is in full flow.

Liverpool’s articulate assistant manager is eulogising about the tempo and intensity of the training session he has just overseen at Melwood. These are the words of a coach with complete job satisfaction.

“The passion and ambition of these players is from another planet,” Lijnders tells The Athletic.

“Their self-confidence, their self-criticism, that is what makes us consistent. These boys have the ability to make even a simple rondo competitive.

“People talk about going game to game — no, we commit session to session. Small things make big things happen. You have to focus on doing the small things right constantly.

“The passion and ambition I see, especially on the rainy and windy days here, that for me is what separates us from the others.”

Over the course of two hours in his company, Jurgen Klopp’s trusted lieutenant provides a fascinating insight into Liverpool’s stunning rise to the heights of European and world champions as well as runaway Premier League leaders.

The Dutchman’s own personal journey has been no less spectacular. He opens up for the first time about the circumstances surrounding his short spell away from Merseyside in 2018 when he went to manage NEC Nijmegen in his homeland.

Lijnders made player development his life’s work after seeing his own hopes of a professional career wrecked by a serious knee injury as a teenager.

From coaching in the youth ranks at PSV Eindhoven and Porto to being responsible for the entire training programme of a Liverpool team who are rewriting the Anfield record books with their dominance, it’s been some ride. Lijnders is still only 36 but his expertise is vast and he commands the respect of the dressing room. Owners Fenway Sports Group regard him as a pivotal cog in this winning machine.

Like Klopp, he recently signed a contract extension to keep him at Liverpool until 2024. The pair enjoy a close bond.

“There’s a super dynamic between us,” Lijnders says.

“It’s much more than just assistant and manager. What I mean by that is that I believe you need 100 per cent trust in this job because we have to make so many decisions on a daily basis. I love working for him. He sees who I am, and respects that. We know what to expect from each other.

“Jurgen is a true leader. He’s inspirational and motivational. He still surprises me every day with something he says. His brain works differently to a lot of other brains!

“He sees through situations and processes. There is a saying that people don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care. And I think everyone who works with Jurgen has the feeling he really cares about you and your development. There is no ego, he purely searches for the right thing to do.”

Klopp’s famed man-management skills are undoubtedly one of his greatest assets. He has fostered a cherished unity and spirit in the squad which has propelled Liverpool towards glory. On a daily basis Lijnders witnesses the manager’s knack of finding the right words at the right times to get the best out of people.

“When Jurgen speaks to the players, he speaks from the heart and it goes directly into the hearts of the players,” he says.

“He has this remarkable capacity to touch people with the words he selects. That’s not easy, especially with this level of players. I find that intriguing, how it’s possible, the convincing way he has and that ability to touch people. You are dealing with a lot of egos in football but in our club it looks like there are no egos.

“Jurgen has created an environment where everyone has bought into it. He solves problems before they arise. He has this capacity of making sure that certain things won’t happen because he speaks about them. The level of respect the players have for him is huge.

“No written word, no spoken plea, can teach our team what they should be, nor all the books on the shelves, it’s what the coach is himself. Do you know what I mean? The character of the coach becomes the character of the team. You can see it throughout the club. That’s the power of Jurgen’s personality.”

Klopp’s fiercely competitive edge extends to the paddle tennis court that he had installed at Melwood. Most days before training Lijnders and Klopp lock horns. If training is at 3pm then they will arrange to meet for an 11am showdown. They can be noisy affairs.

“The staff hear the shouting — me probably more than him,” laughs Lijnders.

“I don’t know how he does it but Jurgen is actually quite reserved on the court. He can control his emotions. We put our character into these games and there’s a lot of passion.

“It’s usually a doubles sport but we play one v one. We like the fact we have to run more and fight more. He always says his players are mentality monsters, well he’s a mentality monster at paddle tennis! He never knows when he’s beaten. He’s won the past two games and that hurts a lot.

“There have been many times when he’s won without deserving it but I’ve got to admit he’s deserved the past two wins.”

Lijnders enjoys parity with fellow assistant boss Peter Krawietz, whose association with Klopp dates back to his role as chief scout at Mainz nearly two decades ago.

Whereas Lijnders’ time is largely spent planning and delivering training sessions, Krawietz’s area of expertise is video analysis. They complement each other well.

“It’s about constantly giving each other information and working together,” Lijnders says.

“It’s always easier with a good leader but still, life is a team sport. We support Jurgen in our best way possible. We know that we have to use each other’s strengths to be able to accomplish great things.

“Pete is one of the world’s best analysts and knows Jurgen’s way very well. He puts his mark in each game’s preparation. He supports me and Jurgen with information to include in our exercises and searches for weakness to exploit. The best football analysts simplify instead of complicate.

“There’s a culture of preparation and perfection here but with a lot of freedom. It’s a complex job being manager of such a big club. You need people around you and under you to focus on specific things. Jurgen tries to collect good ones, ones he can trust, he’s very strong on that.”

Klopp doesn’t tolerate yes-men. He wants his viewpoint to be challenged. How much input do Lijnders and Krawietz have on team selection?

“Jurgen makes the decisions,” he says firmly. “In the end he’s the one who decides but we try to support him with all the information we have and with all the opinions we have. Everyone is encouraged to say exactly what they think. You might not always agree with each other but it’s about always thinking together. Six eyes see more than two eyes. Three brains with a common idea can come up with different things and different insights compared to just one.

“The best meeting of the week is always the day before a game when Jurgen, Peter and I are in the office and we go through the video analysis and the plan for the game. Always in this meeting there’s a moment when we have full conviction in what we’re going to do. We speak about team selection and tactics. It’s a beautiful moment.”


Lijnders grew up in the small village of Broekhuizen in the Dutch province of Limburg. He was a promising centre midfielder on the books at lower league outfit SVEB.

“I was a leader, someone who tried to control and guide the team,” he says. “Would I have made it as a pro? Maybe yes, maybe no, but I always thought I would.”

That dream was dashed by a ruptured ACL at the age of 17 and he reassessed his goals. He went to study sports in the city of Sittard and channelled all his efforts into earning a coaching apprenticeship at PSV Eindhoven.

“There was only one available and I fought so hard to get it,” he recalls.

“I became a youth coach there. After I got injured and couldn’t play anymore, my uncle, who was the president of SVEB, asked me to take the sessions for their second team and become head of their academy. I was only 18 or 19 but I was coaching at both SVEB and PSV, it was a super time.

“Everything I learned at PSV I tried to implement at SVEB. My dad worked as a creative designer at a printers and I designed two big flipovers (flip charts) with our playing formation on and 15 different principles. One flipover for when we had the ball, one for when the opposition had the ball.

“It was implemented so that all teams from the youngest to the oldest age groups trained and played in this way. It was brilliant. I tried to create a common idea inside the club based on an authentic Dutch ‘total football’ way — trying to be dominant and structured with and without the ball.

“I grew as a coach during my five years at PSV. People really took care of me and guided me. They really wanted me to do well. In my second year I got a small contract, in my third year I got a full-time contract and in my fourth year I went to the United States to give presentations and work together with a few clubs.

“Then I felt I was ready to work outside of Holland. I was 24 and in my last season the PSV academy was named the best one in the country. That was the moment to go.”

Porto came calling.

Having been heavily influenced by the coaching techniques of the great Johan Cruyff and former Feyenoord boss Wiel Coerver during his formative years, Lijnders found new sources of inspiration in Portugal.

Not least in the methodology of Vitor Frade, who helped to revolutionise coaching by combining all phases of the game rather than having specific physical, tactical or technical training. With his tactical periodisation, Frade sought to ensure that the tactical dimension was at the forefront of every session.

“Vitor Frade took me to Porto,” says Lijnders.

“I had my own ideas. I admired Coerver and his attacking philosophy. That if you want to play an attacking game, each player needs an all-round technique and a spirit of initiative. That in each position we needed attacking impulses.

“Of course there was Cruyff who taught the false No 9 and the three-diamond-three. I had all these ideas but without great structure.

“Vitor Frade helped me to structure my ideas into principles. That if you want to play like this then on a Wednesday it’s better to train like this. I was an individual coach but he made me look at the collective. I’ll always be grateful that I met him. For me, he’s in the category of Cruyff and Coerver. He’s very important for a new generation of Portuguese coaches who came through with his ideas.”

The names of the gifted youngsters Lijnders helped to develop during his seven years at Porto roll off the tongue. The impressive list includes Joao Felix, Ruben Neves, Andre Gomes, Andre Silva, Diogo Dalot and Goncalo Paciencia.

“To explain the culture of Porto in one sentence; you go into the complex and written in big letters are the words ‘we love the ones who hate to lose’,” says Lijnders.

“Between 2006 and 2011 there was a project there to restructure the first team, the academy and the scouting. I became responsible for the academy restructure with Luis Castro, who is now the manager of Shakhtar Donetsk. He’s a good friend of mine. Vitor Matos, who is working here at Liverpool now, was a young coach in that project.

“I coached each Porto team two times a week, even the first team after a while in small groups. I was also responsible for the department of individual development.

“It’s completely different in southern Europe compared to Holland and England. Where we are thoughtful before we say something, in southern Europe it’s more emotional. I enjoyed working there a lot. We were successful with the academy and the first team. We were five-times champions and won the Europa League. It was special to be part of that.”

Lijnders grabs the water bottles and mobile phones on the table in front of us and starts rearranging them. Briefly, he’s transported back to the pristine green fields of the Iberian Peninsula.

“We would have eight flat goals on the training pitch where you can shoot from both ways. I’d have 100 balls and 30 to 40 kids,” he explains.

“We called it ‘Zidane’ and ‘Maradona’. ‘Zidane’ was under the highest pressure, find solutions, shield the ball. ‘Maradona’ was about getting the ball, trying to outplay and shoot. It was about showing initiative, playing in the opposition half.

“It was a great time with a lot of talent and the young boys inspired me. It makes me really proud to see them play now. To see Joao Felix now, wow, how he turns, combines, how he makes the game so unpredictable…”


By the summer of 2014 Lijnders was looking for a new challenge. He was on the brink of leaving Porto for Ajax when a phone call from then Liverpool academy coach Michael Beale changed everything. He was offered the job of under-16s coach.

“Liverpool kidnapped me!” he laughs.

“I was in Wales for my UEFA A Licence. Over that weekend I had to give a presentation and while I was there Michael and I met to talk. He’d heard a lot about me.

“On the Monday I was supposed to go to Ajax to make the final negotiations with them. I had to call my wife and tell her there had been a change of plan.

“Michael said: ‘You’re coming in the car to Liverpool with us.’ I went to the Hope Street Hotel and I was in the Quarter (a nearby restaurant), drinking espresso and the sun was shining. It was a beautiful day.

“Why did I want to leave Porto? I wanted just one team to put into practice all I had learned over the years at PSV and Porto. When Liverpool said I could have the under-16s and under-15s, I thought ‘this is perfect’.”

Lijnders had attracted interest from Manchester United the previous year but after Sir Alex Ferguson’s retirement those discussions had gone cold. United’s loss proved to be Liverpool’s gain.

His impact at the club’s Kirkby academy over the course of the 2014-15 season was immense. The squad of youngsters he inherited included Trent Alexander-Arnold and Rhian Brewster.

Alexander-Arnold, now arguably the most complete right-back in world football, told The Athletic earlier this season about the importance of the role played by Lijnders in his rise through the ranks.

“Trent developed as a guy incredibly that season,” Lijnders says.

“He was my captain and our No 6 with only three players behind him in a three-diamond-three so he had to do everything well. You have leaders by talking, but Trent was a leader very naturally.

“After sessions, Trent and I would stay out there for another 20 minutes doing some skills until the lights went out. Trent would always be like ‘again, again’.

“That was one of my favourite years of coaching. I must have said 50 times, ‘Guys, I thought you couldn’t play better than yesterday but today you proved me wrong again’. We trained for two hours each day and every session ended with three teams of seven. Goal on, goal off. The better you played, the more you played. With the streetwise Liverpool boys that was the way to push them.

“I really believe that if you want to play quick then it starts in the mind and you have to train like the game. I do it a lot now with the first team. One team attacks, one team defends. They have 40 seconds to score, if they can’t then they’re out. If they score then they play against the third team who are waiting. You split the pitch in two and we call it the ‘wave’ game. If the team defending win the ball then they have to break the halfway line.

“That’s how we want to play. We’re not defending our goal, we defend the halfway line first. And if you lose the ball it has to be intense with maximum concentration.”

Lijnders was invited to Melwood by then boss Brendan Rodgers on a number of occasions to talk about his counter-pressing methods. He blew Rodgers away with his tactical insights and in the summer of 2015 he was promoted to the Northern Irishman’s backroom staff as first-team development coach. He became the key link between the club’s two bases in Kirkby and Melwood and relished being responsible for the ‘Talent Group’ which brought the best young players together from across a number of age groups.

However, just four months later, uncertainty reigned after results nosedived and Rodgers was sacked. Fears that his own job was in jeopardy were swiftly alleviated by Fenway Sports Group president Mike Gordon.

“When Brendan got fired I was really upset. I saw it on the news and called him straightaway,” Lijnders recalls.

“Twenty minutes later Mike Gordon called me. In your lifetime there are moments that you will never forget and that’s one of them; why people will always be very important to you.

“Mike explained everything to me. He said: ‘Pep, you’re here, you will be part of the set-up with the new coach but I need you to help me.’ They needed a week to get everything organised and he wanted me to take the training by myself. I tried to keep Melwood alive and keep everyone going.

“During their talks, Jurgen said to Mike: ‘Listen, this is the staff I want to work with, plus I’ll need a goalkeeper coach and a sports science guy.’ But Mike told him ‘Pep has to stay, I promise you’ll like him.’

“This is a funny story that Mike later told me. Jurgen called him two months later and said: ‘Mike, you were completely wrong, you told me I’d like Pep.’ Mike was like ‘Oh, OK…’ Then Jurgen said: ‘I don’t like Pep, I love him!’”

There was another moment early on in Klopp’s reign when Lijnders realised that his work was being appreciated by the new man at the helm.

“Jurgen came to me with a letter that someone from Germany had written to him,” he reveals.

“It had a CV with it from a coach who was looking for a job at Liverpool. It was written in English and Jurgen came to me and said ‘Pep, what is this? I don’t understand it.’ So I started to read it out and said ‘Gaffer, this guy wants to be on the training pitch with you doing sessions.’

“Jurgen said: ‘Ah, so basically he wants your job?’ I said: ‘Yes, you could look at it like that!’ He took the letter, ripped it up, threw it in the bin and walked off without saying anything. That was when I thought ‘things are going well here’. It’s difficult to put a moment like that into words.

“When Jurgen got announced, I had a good feeling. I thought it would work well but you can never be 100 per cent sure. For the first few months it felt like I was always writing, probably a page of A4 every day, with all the messages he had been giving to the players.

“You need to know exactly what the manager wants. To coach is easy but to know what to coach is much more difficult. Jurgen had a way of coaching and exercises which were close to my own. It was so nice to find someone so good.”


Lijnders walked away from a job, a club and a city he loved when he accepted the opportunity to become manager of NEC Nijmegen in January 2018. His mission was to get them promoted back to the Eredivisie.

It was a decision based on professional ambition but also personal anguish. His dad Leo was battling cancer.

“He was really ill and I’m the oldest child. I had felt guilty for a long time that I wasn’t at home to take care of him,” Lijnders reveals.

“If that hadn’t been the case then I wouldn’t have left in that January. I would have at least finished the season before making any decision. It was a difficult time. I felt like I was leaving a really big chapter of being abroad behind. I felt that I’d go back home for a long time.

“I was so blessed at Liverpool but there was a big desire to become a leader of a team and be more responsible for the coaching process — not just delivering it but planning and preparing. I had a big desire to step out of my comfort zone and be the main man.”

Lijnders’ stint at NEC lasted just five months. Having finished third and missed out on automatic promotion, they lost in the play-offs to Emmen. Going from being a coach to a manager proved to be a steep learning curve.

“I knew it would take time,” he adds. “I went to a very traditional, historic club, one of the bigger ones in Holland, who weren’t in a good moment and had a lot of problems.

“As the manager, you have much more communication with the team and in the beginning that worked really well. I think one of my strengths is explaining things.

“The problem then as the main man was to guide and manage expectations of the people around you when things don’t go well. When you have a few bad results, you have to keep everyone in the same direction and convince them that the way you are setting up is still the right way.

“A lot of times with development, first there’s a period of instability because you ask players to do things that they aren’t used to. I asked a lot, that’s my nature. As a manager, you really need to learn with time, you need to learn from the mistakes that you make, you need to learn from the situations you have to deal with.

“In the back of my mind, I was always thinking: ‘How would Jurgen approach this?’ That half a year was really important for me. I wouldn’t be able to support Jurgen in the way I do if I hadn’t had that short time away. I respected him a lot already but I respected him even more having been in that job and seen what comes at you.”

Lijnders parted company with NEC by mutual consent in the middle of May 2018 and a fortnight later he accepted Klopp’s invitation to attend the Champions League final against Real Madrid in Kiev.

The perceived wisdom is that his return to Melwood was sealed during discussions in the Ukrainian capital. However, the truth is that Lijnders had long since agreed to re-join Klopp’s staff.

Klopp needed a new assistant after Zeljko Buvac’s surprise exit in the April and it wasn’t a long shortlist he had drawn up.

“Jurgen called me really early,” Lijnders reveals.

“It wasn’t after the season, it was in the season. He told me he was searching for a new No 2. He explained that he wasn’t making a list, he said ‘I’m just asking you.’

“I never expected it. I answered ‘yes’ straightaway but I told him ‘Gaffer, I’m still competing to be the champion and if we don’t win the league, we have the play-offs so I need to focus on getting them back to the highest level.’

“I also told him I’d need to speak with my wife Danielle. Her family lived seven miles away, we were living in our house on the river and the kids were all going to school with their friends and nephews, all the family together.

“I was standing in front of the river talking to Jurgen and I had to walk back towards the house. Danielle was sitting outside with my mum having a glass of wine.

“I said: ‘OK, we really need to talk.’ My mum could see it in my eyes. Danielle and I went for a long walk by the river and discussed everything. For me, it was clear, but it was really important for me that she was behind it. I couldn’t do this alone. I need my family around me.

“I gave everything to get NEC promoted but it wasn’t to be. But whatever had happened, I’d already decided that I was coming back to Liverpool. Nobody knew though, only me and Jurgen. I didn’t want to create any fuss before Kiev. There are two big things in my life. My Liverpool family and my own family. That’s it, nothing else.”

The day he signed the contract to become Liverpool’s assistant manager was especially poignant.

“My dad got the test results back to say that he was completely clean. He had been sick for two years. There was a lot of emotion. Thankfully, he’s still good now. He lives in my hometown but he comes over for some games. He never stops watching football. He knows a lot, well he thinks he does! He’s become a big Liverpool fan.”


The role Lijnders came back to was very different from the one he left behind. More demanding but also more rewarding as he was tasked with filling the void created by Buvac’s departure.

“In Holland they said I was going back to my old job but that wasn’t true,” he says.

“I became the No 2. If that hadn’t been the job Jurgen offered me then I wouldn’t have come back. He gave me responsibility for the training process and that was very important to me.

“Before, I didn’t decide if we played eight minutes or six minutes, whether we did this exercise or that exercise, I just delivered sessions. When I came back I was responsible.

“My time away from Liverpool was good for self-reflection. I became much clearer how I wanted to work and what is decisive to become successful. I know exactly what I would do differently now. No more concessions, we do it like I want in training, nothing else, convincing each day, create happiness in the players, a clear week plan and we play everywhere we go in the same manner, full energy.”

What does a normal day in the life of Pep Lijnders look like?

He says: “My alarm is my youngest one. My two boys are three-and-a-half and five-and-a-half. When they come into our bed, sleeping is done!

“Early in the morning, I usually call Vitor Manos (elite development coach), I’ll text Jurgen and then come into Melwood. I have a meeting with Jurgen in his office to talk about training. What are we going to do? Who is delivering what and how is it going to look? Do we want to have Sadio (Mane) on the left wing or as the striker? Things like that.

“When the training is planned, I explain what the ideas behind it are to Andreas (Kornmayer, head of fitness and conditioning), Pete, Vitor, John (Achterberg, goalkeeping coach) and Jack (Robinson, assistant goalkeeping coach).

“Then I go out and put everything on the pitch. Normally Jurgen has a meeting with the players either in the dressing room or outside to give some details about the sessions. We train always in the same intensity as the game, same concentration and tempo. This is the secret of training in my opinion.

“Everything is designed around the training. The day basically starts when the training ends. I’ll watch the session back on the video and try to get as many opinions as possible from the people around me. Then the planning starts for the next session. We make decisions about how tomorrow will look. What do we want to do? What players will we have?

“I have to speak with the medical department and try to plan the session in more detail and I’ll put it in the tactics planner and work everything out in terms of how it relates to our next opponent. Pete will also give input. Then the plan is clear for the next day and I’ll go home. In the evening when the kids have gone to bed I’ll watch footage of our opponents.”

During Lijnders’ time as assistant manager, Liverpool have collected an extraordinary 155 points out of a possible 174. They have gone to the next level since winning the Champions League in Madrid last June and find themselves 13 points clear at the top of the Premier League as they close in on a first domestic title since 1990.

“Winning something big puts more conviction, more trust into everything; subconsciously you feel stronger. There’s a real hunger to fight for more prizes,” he says.

“But for me it’s about the journey and how the team developed. The trust I got from keeping things simple, never giving up on our way, believing in training and video meetings to improve, clear messages with a lot of conviction from Jurgen, Pete or myself, repeating that process over and over again.

“Trusting the players to always look at our best games and think about what steps won us those games. Was it our full backs being constantly ready to jump? Was it the centre backs coming in front of offensive players rather than stepping back? Was it our midfielders being really together and always connected rather than just searching for it? It’s about doing it our way again, becoming better and searching for perfection. We know it doesn’t exist but you still have to search for it.

“People say Liverpool developed so much here and there but I think our main strength is that we’re always together. By that I mean on the pitch, the distances, the organisation, the way we are. That’s the only way to be an aggressive, pressing team. If the distances and the organisation are not right then you have no chance.

“That’s where we’ve made the biggest improvement. Wherever the game is on the pitch, we are there together. A compact team, an intense team, both on and off the ball. Jurgen talks about the principle that everyone is responsible for everything. It’s easy to say, it’s harder to put it into practice on the pitch for 95 minutes but that’s what these players have been doing a lot. If we recover well and have freshness in our game, we go into every game with a common idea of chasing them all over the pitch.

“Each individual in our team has become a better player from working here. If you compare (Andy) Robertson, Trent and Sadio to when they came in consistency wise… I could go on. Jurgen has created a culture of preparation. Each department in the club feels this responsibility and is better connected. It’s clear what we want and the standards have gone up and up and up.”

The style of the team has certainly evolved. Game-management has been a feature of this record-breaking season which has seen Liverpool drop just two points. They put themselves in winning positions and then play with real maturity and control.

“That has to grow within a team, you can’t just put it there,” Lijnders says.

“Even if we’re 3-0 up we want to be dominant. We still search for the 4-0 but the way we do that can be different from how we searched to make it 1-0 or 2-0. We can make more passes, we can switch the play more from one side to the other, we can create more doubt for the opponents with our positioning. But we are still searching for the 4-0.

“When you become European champions, when you become more dominant on the ball, you don’t rely as much on defensive organisation and counter-attack which is a very attractive part of our game. We’ve become better on the ball as teams have set up differently against us. I’d say 75 per cent of teams in the Premier League, even the bigger teams, changed their system or approach to play against us this season – lines much closer together, dropping deeper.

“Can we then expect to have attack, attack, attack? No, we can’t. We have to respect that and find a new way against them. It’s why our variety of creating and scoring is so important. It pushes us to evolve again. What I like about our game is that we have so many different weapons and that makes us unpredictable. It’s not about playing it from A to B to C to D. That’s not the game we want. Even our defensive principles aren’t like that. That makes us very difficult to read.

“Teams can’t just drop deep against us and try to stop us playing through them because Trent and Robbo will get down the wings and then you’ve got the centre-backs bringing it forward and creating space. There’s a lot of freedom because we focus on principles rather than exact plays. We know that if all this is present then the mentality of Jurgen and the boys will put us above the other team. But all this has to be right (Lijnders bangs the desk).

“You can have a lot of passion but if there’s no structure then you have no chance. You need organisation, tactical discipline and the right distances. That’s the base – that’s the father and mother of football and being a consistent team.”

Lijnders’ stock has risen to the point that he’s been mentioned as a potential successor to Klopp one day. But such talk is far from his thoughts. He’s too busy savouring every second of the here and now.

“It makes me proud but it’s not realistic because it’s not important at this moment in time,” he adds.

“My only ambition is to support Jurgen and our project in the best way possible. Mike Gordon and Jurgen have been the most important people in my career. They gave me the chance and the belief to lead the process of training and methodology with the first team.

“This is my life. I feel passionate about this club and I feel blessed to work with passionate colleagues. I feel that what we have here in this period we will never experience again in our lives.

“So many things have come together with the owners, the manager, people behind the manager who in hard moments never give up, and a playing group who are so together and really want to play for Liverpool and for us as a staff. In the end I really hope that we get what the boys deserve.

“I believe each football project is like the sun rising up and going down, and for our project it’s not even noon. That’s the reason why we committed for another four years.”

Like the team he has helped to shape, Pep Lijnders is relentless.

 

Edited by wige

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@wige Can you put that post in a spoiler please? Was scrolling for ever

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@diddydaddydoddy Couple of considerations:

Origi LW position - can this get added as a natural position? He plays there more often than upfront these days. Even Mane and Salah will be moved to ST to accommodate Origi on the LW.

Henderson and Milner's personalities - can these be changed from professional to model professional? I don't think professional does them justice. They are teetotal and keep themselves in the very best shape. There's never controversy with them, especially Milner who gets played everywhere without complaint. 

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@paddypower Thanks for those suggestions. Klopp's wrong about Origi's position :D I think I've upped his position familiarity to 19 as LW but he's still a central striker for me. I'll check Milner and Hendo's Professionalism rating but I agree with you they are absolute model professionals.

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1 hour ago, diddydaddydoddy said:

@paddypower Thanks for those suggestions. Klopp's wrong about Origi's position :D I think I've upped his position familiarity to 19 as LW but he's still a central striker for me. I'll check Milner and Hendo's Professionalism rating but I agree with you they are absolute model professionals.

Ah ok 19 is fair for LW!

 

Below are attribute ranges for personalities. I personally think either of the model personalities suit them.

 

Model Citizen
Determination 14-20, Professionalism 15-20, Ambition 12-20, Loyalty 15-20, Pressure 14-20, Sportsmanship 15-20, Temperament 15-20

Model Professional
Professionalism 20, Temperament 10-20

Professional
Professionalism 18-19, Temperament 10-20
Leader <19

 

Milner: Loyalty and Sportsmanship stops him being a Model Citizen. Professionalism is 1 point too low for Model Professional.

Henderson: Sportsmanship is 1 point too low for Model Citizen. Professionalism is 2 points too low for Model Professional.

 

Perhaps add 1 point to Henderson's Sportsmanship, and 1 point to Milner's Professionalism? This would be fair: as an example of Henderson's sportsmanship here is a video of him consoling Kane and Pochettino after the CL final, while the rest of our squad is off celebrating: https://twitter.com/anfieldwatch/status/1135149989720723456 . His rating is only 14 atm, which wouldn't reflect this sort of behaviour

 

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@paddypower Thanks for those - they are both now model professionals. Where did you get the attribute breakdowns from?

Origi btw is 18 for LW.

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The winter update is approaching and I might do an at length post on Spurs players, but in case I don't there's something that I would really like to address.

Harry Kane's downgrade to natural fitness from 18 to 13.

In game, the natural fitness attribute affects three things, in order of importance.

- condition recovery between matches

- recovery time from injury

- rate of decline of a player's physical attributes - due to things like injury, age, lack of playing time, holiday.

 

Now, I don't necessarily disagree with his overall downgrade in the physical department, but the one to his natural fitness is completely unwarranted.

Whenever he isn't injured, he usually plays every minute for both club and country, and without giving the impression his significantly off his best. What that does to his likelihood of injury is another story, but you don't see with him the type of dip in performance for example Dele has shown against Soton and Boro.

Kane had his fair share of injuries last three seasons and every time he returned sooner than expected for that type of injury. Now I realize whether he was fit for the CL final is a big point of contention among Spurs fans, but the forecast for the earlier January injury he picked up against United was early to mid March, and he returned from it mid February - going on to score against Burnley, Southampton, Arsenal and Dortmund away.

I will grant to you that an early, Rooney-like physical decline is a possibility due to the sheer minutes and beating Kane puts his body through. But at the same time it's hard to tell how much of Rooney's decline was due to playing in the PL from the age of 16, and how much was due to his lifestyle. The counter-example for that is Milner, who Kane resembles a lot more in being a consummate professional, who's also played an insane number of minutes in the PL and has had his fair share of injury problems, and yet is still kicking at the age of 34.

And either way, the latter of the three is least important of the attribute's roles. As it stands Kane has a lower rating than someone like Rose, who struggles to start two consecutive games. Ndombele too, but his rating is the work of the Lyon researcher and it may still to give a definite verdict in his case.

I would argue his injury proneness is not particularly high for a player who plays as many minutes as he does, but that's a harder argument to make in light of his recent hamstring tear - which is his first muscle injury in his professional career, all other injuries were impact injuries going all the way back to his metatarsal injury in his development years. The game already drastically increases the likelihood of injury for players with a high match load, his high determination, workrate and bravery for an attacker already increases the likelihood of finding himself in a bad challenge, representing him with a high injury proneness on top of that only double dips into the reasons for his recent injury problems. I think a very low injury proneness(2-3) but with a recurring injury to his right ankle is a better representation, because as it stands, in-game Harry constantly gets tight calves and hamstrings in pre-season which is not true to real life.

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Marcel Wusiewicz is no longer at Burnley and hasn't been since the end of the 2017/18 season but is still at the club on a contract until June 2020. Currently on a scholarship in the US so needs to be removed from the club. 

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Watford
Gomes ID:310870 - Add League Cup runner up 08-09 season (Currently Carabao Cup) and 2003 CONCACAF Gold Cup
Daryl Janmaat ID:860896 - Add Netherlands 3rd place in WC (Date 12/07/2014)
Adrian Mariappa ID:5119893 - Add CONCACAF Gold Cup runner up with Jamaica in 2015 and FA Cup runner up with Crystal Palace (21/05/2016)
Tom Cleverley ID:28000906 - Add FA Cup runners up with Aston Villa (30/05/2015)
Will Hughes ID:29086005 - Add Senior debut added (For Derby vs Peterborough on 05/11/2011) and first senior goal (For Derby vs Watford on 01/09/2012)
Domingos Quina ID:28108046 - Add UEFA Euro Under-19 Championship (29/07/2018)
Kiko Femenía ID:67063051 - Add Spanish Second Division with Alavés (2015-16 season)
Isaac Success ID:13135061 - Does Granada B count as a Senior debut? If not, Add Senior Club Debut (With Granada vs Elche CF on 31/08/2014 - in La Liga) and scored his first senior goal (With Granada vs Valencia on 07/12/2014 - in La Liga)
 

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Why do PL researchers think every fullback plays in Marcelo-like manner and has ''gets further forward'' and ''runs with ball often'' PPMs ticked? There are only 4 fullbacks in leading 50 players with most dribbles per game in PL.

Don't you think ''gets further forward'' is such a simple instruction that every pro player would understand to play less aggresivelly if asked?

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7 hours ago, Mitja said:

Why do PL researchers think every fullback plays in Marcelo-like manner and has ''gets further forward'' and ''runs with ball often'' PPMs ticked? There are only 4 fullbacks in leading 50 players with most dribbles per game in PL.

Don't you think ''gets further forward'' is such a simple instruction that every pro player would understand to play less aggresivelly if asked?

Which players do you think shouldn't have those PPMs? Your statement might well be a fair one but it's not really something that any of us individual researchers can discuss with you until you name some examples. :thup:

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4 hours ago, tomlcfc said:

Which players do you think shouldn't have those PPMs? Your statement might well be a fair one but it's not really something that any of us individual researchers can discuss with you until you name some examples. :thup:

Can you say which PL fullback plays like Marcelo 24/7/365? Then I'm all in for that discussion.

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16 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Can you say which PL fullback plays like Marcelo 24/7/365? Then I'm all in for that discussion.

I only watch Real Madrid in the Champions League so I couldn't tell you anything definitive about Marcelo's playstyle in 2020.

I've had a look at the database, and specifically looked at the Premier League full-backs with 'gets further forward' and 'runs with ball often' PPMs.

The players who are natural (20/20) for DR and DL with runs with ball often are (as of November database): Adam Smith (Bournemouth), Dimitri Foulquier (Watford) and Andy Robertson (Liverpool).

Considering that's two starting full-backs in the division, that's not very high at all. Robertson is obviously a player that carries the ball quite far; not sure about Smith personally. Foulquier has played 58 minutes of PL football so undoubtedly the Watford researcher couldn't say either way if that was something to keep or not.

On to what I assume you mean as 'gets forward whenever possible', I make it roughly 19 Premier League DLs and 17 DRs that have that PPM. Now that may be quite high, but the irony of the situation is that Marcelo doesn't have that PPM himself!

In all seriousness, I do think it is an interesting observation. It's important that PPMs are something that is very difficult to 'train out' of a player's playstyle, when as you say many of those players would probably drop into a more defensive role if asked. Having said that, I'd look at a number of players with that PPM such as Patrick van Aanholt who from what I've seen of him could easily be that sort of player, so you'd have to argue it on a case-by-case basis.

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15 minutes ago, tomlcfc said:

I only watch Real Madrid in the Champions League so I couldn't tell you anything definitive about Marcelo's playstyle in 2020.

I've had a look at the database, and specifically looked at the Premier League full-backs with 'gets further forward' and 'runs with ball often' PPMs.

The players who are natural (20/20) for DR and DL with runs with ball often are (as of November database): Adam Smith (Bournemouth), Dimitri Foulquier (Watford) and Andy Robertson (Liverpool).

Considering that's two starting full-backs in the division, that's not very high at all. Robertson is obviously a player that carries the ball quite far; not sure about Smith personally. Foulquier has played 58 minutes of PL football so undoubtedly the Watford researcher couldn't say either way if that was something to keep or not.

On to what I assume you mean as 'gets forward whenever possible', I make it roughly 19 Premier League DLs and 17 DRs that have that PPM. Now that may be quite high, but the irony of the situation is that Marcelo doesn't have that PPM himself!

In all seriousness, I do think it is an interesting observation. It's important that PPMs are something that is very difficult to 'train out' of a player's playstyle, when as you say many of those players would probably drop into a more defensive role if asked. Having said that, I'd look at a number of players with that PPM such as Patrick van Aanholt who from what I've seen of him could easily be that sort of player, so you'd have to argue it on a case-by-case basis.

What about ''runs with ball down the right/left flank''? My mistake. Couple that with ''gets FF'' and you have Marcelo like player. And irony indeed about him. :D

I just wanted you guys to give food for thought, there's always editor for me.

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10 hours ago, tomlcfc said:

Robertson is obviously a player that carries the ball quite far;

Since you mentioned Robertson, I think Liverpool could serve as perfect example of the issue. I've seen enough of Liverpool to feel confident enough to comment. I don't know what PPMs Robertson and TTA have in game. Liverpool play with both fullbacks really high and much more conservative central  midfield. To me that's both fullbacks on attack duty translated to FM language but considering how AI Klopp sets duties in current ME I would try to replicate that with PPMs. If I remember right AI Klopp doesn't play both FBs on attack duty when using control mantality, that's an UI issue. Currently AI Klopp plays opposite to real life - AMR on support duty and FBR on attack and AML on attack and FBL on support. That's how every AI manager setup unfortunately there's no varity here. To try to replicate real life Liverpool style I'd either put ''gets forward whenever possible'' on both or only on Robertson to achieve both FBs playing like in real life. But that's Liverpool not many teams play with so aggressive FBs. I'd be much more careful usually. Also 433 is formation that allows playing in such manner. Not an easy thing to asses for reasarchers.

As for the quoted part and running with ball I think that's much easier, players stats are easily reachable. I don't think carriying the ball forward is enough to set player with dribbling PPM since every player in real life and in ME will do that, Especially wide player will have more opportunities to do it. I'd be extremely careful with setting any player with dribbling PPM. Fullback even more. In current ME far too many dribbles happen. While that's obviously ME problem plus most wide roles have dribbling often ticked, setting too many players with dribbling ppms only enhances this problem. 

Cheers.  

Edited by Mitja

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Some thoughts and suggestions on Liverpool (we really should have our own thread...):

In general I think it's time for Liverpool to shine as the league's "Mentality giants". Liverpool's players should have the league's highest mental stats (including determination), the highest work rate, team work, stamina ,and most of them with good leadership abilities (unlike Arsenal for example). Might be we do already, but worth a look.

Harvey Elliott looks to be a much more exciting talent than Brewster or Hoever (the three of them have -85 in potential. Not so sure if that's warranted for Brewster anymore, he hasn't impressed anyone, including Klopp).

Neco Williams is not a fully natural right back in the game, and has very bad stats. Guessing you did some changes here already though. Guessing Curtis Jones got an upgrade as well? Very low CA now compared to someone like Millar/Kane.

Wijnaldum's flair rating should be much higher than Hendo and Milner's, it isn't atm. He's done a couple of crazy Cruyff-moves under pressure at times. I think his leadership ability should go up as well, he's very tactically astute and has been getting praise for his leadership abilities. He's become somewhat of a veteran player, especially for his national team. I feel 11 is too low for him. (Still on the quest to make you keep improving Gini :))

I think Robbo's potential could go down a bit, and his current ability up a bit. I don't think he has the potential to improve much IRL - he's perfect as he is. His professionality rating could go up even further to keep it that way.

Origi could have temperament: 20. Most chill guy ever according to everyone. Milner said so in his book as well. https://twitter.com/OliverKay/status/1202350379545120771/photo/1

Edited by OkMarius

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Dejan Iliev apparently signed a new Arsenal contract in July, according to the club itself.

https://www.arsenal.com/news/iliev-agrees-join-jagiellonia-bialystok-loan - "Deyan's fine performances were rewarded with a new contract, which was signed in July."

Until 2022 according to https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/dejan-iliev/profil/spieler/205757.

I just double checked and in game he's out of contract in 2020.

 

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On 15/01/2020 at 21:55, OkMarius said:

I think his leadership ability should go up as well, he's very tactically astute and has been getting praise for his leadership abilities. He's become somewhat of a veteran player, especially for his national team. I feel 11 is too low for him. (Still on the quest to make you keep improving Gini :))

To strengthen my case, from the recent Sports Illustrated interview with Klopp:

"Klopp, says Wijnaldum, is “always trying to solve problems because he can understand why people are angry.”"

He was also voted by the players to 4th captain as I've mentioned earlier. Gini is better than ever in the game, but there are still a few attributes that could justifiably go up. His mental stats included. I think he shows every sign of being a model professional.

Edited by Quentin

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7 hours ago, daspindocta said:

Dejan Iliev apparently signed a new Arsenal contract in July, according to the club itself.

https://www.arsenal.com/news/iliev-agrees-join-jagiellonia-bialystok-loan - "Deyan's fine performances were rewarded with a new contract, which was signed in July."

Until 2022 according to https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/dejan-iliev/profil/spieler/205757.

I just double checked and in game he's out of contract in 2020.

 

Thanks, have requested this is updated.  

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On 15/01/2020 at 20:55, OkMarius said:

Some thoughts and suggestions on Liverpool (we really should have our own thread...):

In general I think it's time for Liverpool to shine as the league's "Mentality giants". Liverpool's players should have the league's highest mental stats (including determination), the highest work rate, team work, stamina ,and most of them with good leadership abilities (unlike Arsenal for example). Might be we do already, but worth a look.

Harvey Elliott looks to be a much more exciting talent than Brewster or Hoever (the three of them have -85 in potential. Not so sure if that's warranted for Brewster anymore, he hasn't impressed anyone, including Klopp).

Neco Williams is not a fully natural right back in the game, and has very bad stats. Guessing you did some changes here already though. Guessing Curtis Jones got an upgrade as well? Very low CA now compared to someone like Millar/Kane.

Wijnaldum's flair rating should be much higher than Hendo and Milner's, it isn't atm. He's done a couple of crazy Cruyff-moves under pressure at times. I think his leadership ability should go up as well, he's very tactically astute and has been getting praise for his leadership abilities. He's become somewhat of a veteran player, especially for his national team. I feel 11 is too low for him. (Still on the quest to make you keep improving Gini :))

I think Robbo's potential could go down a bit, and his current ability up a bit. I don't think he has the potential to improve much IRL - he's perfect as he is. His professionality rating could go up even further to keep it that way.

Origi could have temperament: 20. Most chill guy ever according to everyone. Milner said so in his book as well. https://twitter.com/OliverKay/status/1202350379545120771/photo/1

@OkMarius I agree about having our own thread.

I have submitted my updated DB and a significant number of increases (incl CA's) have been accepted.

Elliott / Brewster / Hoever - 'more exciting' isn't easy to quantify. an attacking player plays in a potentially more exciting position then a defensive player. A young player will experience highs and lows as they develop and possibly Hoever is starting to be on a 'low' but he's has been away in the u17 WC and been injured so hasn't been available for awhile. You have to remember Brewster has been injured for a year, has had niggling injuries all season since and it takes time to get back to their previous form. I haven't seen anywhere saying that Klopp hasn't been impressed by him. The loan will help him get more minutes under his belt to get him back into the right rhythm.

Neco and Curtis have both had CA increases.

Wijnaldum / Milner / Hendo - I think all three can and have shown flair but it s always going to be limited with the way that our midfielders play. To be fair I haven't seen Wijnaldum for Holland though. Fair point on his Leadership though.

Origi - agreed and have increased his Temperament

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