FM19 = take a shot, gets blocked, shoot again. And lots of blocked crosses

[Armistice]

Yeah you look at the thread title and think you heard this before and it's all down to YoUr TaCtIcS but I am seriously starting to believe that no matter what tactical instructions you set, the attacking play will look the same. Basically when the ball is in the central area in the final third, it gets pinged between a few players before being spread wide where the fullback will try to dribble past his direct marker. When he gets close to the Byline he will try to launch a cross that gets blocked very often. Rinse and repeat. The ball is again in central areas. One player has enough of this pinging the ball back and forth so he has a crack at goal despite 2-3 opposition players are infront of him and the shot gets blocked. Nevermind he takes another shot. He thinks this time there will be a different outcome. Nope.

Happens in 70% of the highlights. If you seeing different stuff please post screenshots. Thanks.

Btw this is not a rant topic, I'm asking if people see similar stuff.

Edited October 13, 2019 by Armistice

[RBKalle]

It's annoying but often due to extremely attacking formations and tactical setups.

But yes, players tend to stubbornly choose to shoot even when they have better options available. Regardless of tactics, instructions and attributes.

Blocked crosses are a but of a long-standing issue, that get either under- or overdone depending on the ME build/FM version. Some times crossing is almost 100% effective, other times it's so crappy you'd swear the wingers are programmed to wait for a defender to close them down and block the cross (while they had like 5 secs to place a cross unchallenged).

[sporadicsmiles]

8 hours ago, Armistice said:

it's all down to YoUr TaCtIcS

It is a tactical issue, and unless you actually try to understand why and do things to change it, you will continue to see these things.

[Prej]

9 hours ago, RBKalle said:

Blocked crosses are a but of a long-standing issue, that get either under- or overdone depending on the ME build/FM version. Some times crossing is almost 100% effective, other times it's so crappy you'd swear the wingers are programmed to wait for a defender to close them down and block the cross (while they had like 5 secs to place a cross unchallenged).

I second this.

It works kinda like this:

• FMXX is released.
• Crossing is overpowered.
• It's not being fixed in the current version because of reasons.
• The next FM is released.
• Crossing is dumbed down.
• It's not being fixed in the current version because of reasons.
• The next FM is released.
• Crossing is overpowered.
• It's not being fixed in the current version because of reasons.

[Armistice]

2 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

It is a tactical issue, and unless you actually try to understand why and do things to change it, you will continue to see these things.

Sure, my tactics... But this means the AI has tactical issues aswell and that's on high level like Champions League because they are experiencing exactly the same long shots and blocked crosses like me. Teams like Man City, Barcelona, PSG, who have world class players in their squad and world class AI managers.

Also I've always wondered why people who deny these attacking patterns are not bothered to participate to the discussion with some screenshots. Would be nice to see how you doing out there.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Armistice

[herne79]

14 minutes ago, Armistice said:

if this is always a tactical issue then the AI has tactical issues aswell because they are scoring the same sort of goals. And they are taking the same type of long shots.

ok so the AI are scoring goals with similar types of shots to ones you are missing?

Given that AI managers have the exact same tools as we do, what does this tell us?  Some options may be:

1) You're not defending very well.

2) Your players can't handle pressure, panic and take pot shots.

3) Your players don't have as many alternatives as you think.

4) Your players do have options but they are making bad choices.

5) Your players do have options but your set up encourages them to shoot instead of pass.

6) Some/all of the above.

7) There is something built into the game to favour the AI (there isn't).

8) Something else entirely because we have no context or actual examples so can only theorise.

For me I typically see an average of c.20 attempted crosses per game, around half my goals scored from crosses, and the majority of goals scored from inside the box.  That may be because I play with a different style of football from what you are attempting, I don't know.  But we have no idea how you are setting up so at the moment we can only generalise.  Maybe some of the issues you are seeing are ME related but again we don't know because we don't what you are doing.

4 minutes ago, Armistice said:

Also I've always wondered why people who deny these attacking patterns are not bothered to participate to the discussion with some screenshots.

You've asked for screen shots yet there are plenty of discussions over in the tactics forum which contain just that.

[herne79]

And how about reducing blocked crosses?  Well, reducing the number of crosses attempted can be a good place to start which will help focus the play more through the centre of the pitch instead.

I'm not going to talk about your forward's movement here (although improving things here is certainly an option) but rather who is making the crosses which will typically be your wide players.

1) Use the wide midfielder role rather than the winger role.  The Winger role tends to be a little one dimensional - run down the touchline and cross.  It's a Winger's raison d'être, which is fine if that's what you want from the role but if you are after a little more flexibility, use the WM role instead.

2) If you are using the wingback or fullback role, tone the duty down.  Instead of an attack duty player, use support or even defend.  Don't think that a defend duty Wingback is just going to sit deep all day long, he won't.  He may not get forward as often as an attack duty Wingback does, what it means is he'll tend to get forward in lower risk situations and keep pace with the ball rather than getting ahead of it (although he'll still do that on occasion).

3) Use player Traits and tactical instructions in combination.  Combine your attack duty Wingback with a player who has the Trait to get forward often and he'll camp in the opposition half waiting to cross at every given opportunity.  But combine the same player with a Wingback (defend) instead and you have a different beast on your hands.  Similarly if you feel your defend duty Wingback doesn't get as far forward as often as you want try using the "Look for Overlap" instruction, as that slightly increases the mentality of the Wingback.  And of course the overall Team Mentality you choose will impact and adjust things further.  These combinations are extremely important but often overlooked, so never view things in isolation from each other.  (I've used Wingbacks as the example here but these same principles apply to all roles and positions).

Now that's not to say things can't improved in the ME (they can) but at the same time that doesn't mean we are helpless and just have to put up with it.

[Armistice]

59 minutes ago, herne79 said:

ok so the AI are scoring goals with similar types of shots to ones you are missing?

Given that AI managers have the exact same tools as we do, what does this tell us?  Some options may be:

1) You're not defending very well.

2) Your players can't handle pressure, panic and take pot shots.

3) Your players don't have as many alternatives as you think.

4) Your players do have options but they are making bad choices.

5) Your players do have options but your set up encourages them to shoot instead of pass.

6) Some/all of the above.

7) There is something built into the game to favour the AI (there isn't).

8) Something else entirely because we have no context or actual examples so can only theorise.

For me I typically see an average of c.20 attempted crosses per game, around half my goals scored from crosses, and the majority of goals scored from inside the box.  That may be because I play with a different style of football from what you are attempting, I don't know.  But we have no idea how you are setting up so at the moment we can only generalise.  Maybe some of the issues you are seeing are ME related but again we don't know because we don't what you are doing.

You've asked for screen shots yet there are plenty of discussions over in the tactics forum which contain just that.

No mate, what I meant is that the AI is producing similar type of off-target/blocked long shots and blocked crosses as I do AND similar type of goal scoring patterns. This is not about me, otherwise I would have written this topic in the Tactics section. To shed some light, looking strictly at the results, I have absolutely no reason to complain. I'm comfortably leading the Russian league, I've scored the most goals, I'm averaging 2.7-2.8 goals per game, I've conceded only 2 goals in 11 games, I'm leading my UCL group that has PSG (they have a stellar line-up made of Eriksen, Frankie de Jong, O. Dembele, Neymar, Gabriel Jesus, Bernardo Silva just to give a few names), Benfica and Besiktas (I'm Spartak Moscow btw, not the greatest side either) and I need one point out of the next 2 games to secure qualification to the knock-out round, my best player is the team's and league's top goal scorer, my best fullback is top assists, my front three has goals distributed evenly between them so everything sounds heaven.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Armistice

[herne79]

3 minutes ago, Armistice said:

No mate, what I meant is that the AI is producing similar type of off-target/blocked long shots and blocked crosses as I do AND similar type of goal scoring patterns. This is not about me, otherwise I would have written this topic in the Tactics section. To shed some light, looking strictly at the results, I have absolutely no reason to complain. I'm comfortably leading the Russian league, I've scored the most goals, I'm averaging 2.7-2.8 goals per game, I've conceded only 2 goals in 11 games, I'm leading my UCL group that has PSG (they have a stellar line-up made of Eriksen, Frankie de Jong, O. Dembele, Neymar, Gabriel Jesus, Bernardo Silva just to give a few names), Benfica and Besiktas (I'm Spartak Moscow btw, not the greatest side either), my best player is the team's and league's top goal scorer, my best fullback is top assists, my front three has goals distributed evenly between them so everything is heaven.

Perhaps the AI managers should visit the tactics forum then .

[Tony Wright 747]

3 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

It is a tactical issue, and unless you actually try to understand why and do things to change it, you will continue to see these things.

The problem with this argument is that if you watch AI v AI you see the same things

[Svenc]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

Perhaps the AI managers should visit the tactics forum then .

Perhaps AI, same as Players likewise should be finally limited to making actual Football decisions. (Which would also making the balance of the ME tons easier -- Things actually being coded around Football concepts proper implemented wholesale). Granted, then the tactics forumees couldN't have this big of an Edge (and the download sections may throw a tantrum).  

You have perfectly highlighted in your above post where a big part of the "issue" is -- AI included as well. 
 

Quote

These combinations are extremely important but often overlooked, so never view things in isolation from each other.

Too many possible Micro combinations leading to not much Football -- and too many factors to consider likewise. Good luck coding dynamic AI changing things also during a match (let alone making Adjustments prior to each match) around such complex decision making processes.  Speaking about AI, how the General Play "Looks" like may also depend on how the AI may set up (rigidly parking the bus every other week so that Play may be forced out wide more often than not….).

 

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by Svenc

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Svenc said:

Perhaps AI, same as Players likewise should be finally limited to making actual Football decisions. (Which would also making the balance of the ME tons easier -- Things actually being coded around Football concepts proper implemented wholesale). Granted, then the tactics forumees couldN't have this big of an Edge (and the download sections may throw a tantrum).  

You have perfectly highlighted in your above post where a big part of the "issue" is -- AI included as well. 
 

Too many possible Micro combinations leading to not much Football -- and too many factors to consider likewise. Good luck coding dynamic AI changing things also during a match (let alone making Adjustments prior to each match) around such complex decision making processes.  Speaking about AI, how the General Play "Looks" like may also depend on how the AI may set up (rigidly parking the bus every other week so that Play may be forced out wide more often than not….).

 

 

And yet (as you well know) it's perfectly possible to play the game with a minimum of tactical instructions.

btw in this context I really couldn't give a stuff what AI managers get up to - my focus here (and over in the tactics forum, along with the other "forumees") is squarely on helping others who come looking for it.  Join in and pass on your knowledge .

[MBarbaric]

4 ore fa, herne79 ha scritto:

1) Use the wide midfielder role rather than the winger role.  The Winger role tends to be a little one dimensional -run down the touchline and cross.  It's a Winger's raison d'être, which is fine if that's what you want from the role but if you are after a little more flexibility, use the WM role instead.

I believe there is a problem with this statement so let me try to explain my reasoning behind it.

In modern football (last ten years?), there really is no such thing as a "winger role" or a "winger". It is just a common place holder to identify a general area where a certain player spends most of the time. However, no player on the field is an isolated entity (there are cases, such as 1v1 against a gk, but that is not a common occurance). Most of the 90 minutes (99,9% of the time) all 22 players interact in response to position of each one of them, and to the ball. 

So, what the game referes to as a "winger", who most of the time "run down the touchline and cross", doesn't really correspond to what actually happens on the field in real football. That "winger" doesn't just run and cross. 99% of the time, he will not even have the ball and what does he do then?

He, and all 10 players who don't have the ball constantly move looking to switch positions with other players (i.e. a winger with the central midfielder who runs diagonally towards the flank allowing the winger to move inside into general area where the CM came from). This dynamic movement constantly happens on the pitch, and it is provided by the players far away from the ball as much as those closer to the ball. 

This movement is fundamental for creating space as the opposition has constantly to reposition itself in order to protect the space. Imagine how difficult it is to dance (well for some of us it is ) with one partner. Now imagine you are dancing with 11 partners and you dont' want to really be very close but 10 meters apart. Now imagine how dificult it is to move in coordinated manner in order to keep roughly same vertical and horizontal distance between all 11 players. Now imagine opposition players moving the ball quickly on a 90m wide and 120m long pitch. 

Against a static team, defensive unit may even have a chance to keep concentration. But against a mobile opposition that constantly switches positions and has ability to control the ball,  the defensive unit will most likely make a wrong step. It is movement that create space. So, to get back to our winger example, as he switches positions, he might be anywhere on the pitch. Of course, he will be instructed to be in spaces where he is most effective depending on his abilities, however, in such dynamic play, what the game calls a CM could well end up in places where you'd expect a W. 

In real match, this happens organically as players adjust their positions in regard to their team mates and opposition, in the game though, this is dealt with roles. So what happens in the game is that a winger really is "one dimensional -run down the touchline and cross". In top level football, this doesn't work anymore because defences (in most cases) are organized so well they work as a unit so the winger can't just go on a series of 1v1's. He has to deal with an organized defence and he has to cooperate with his team mates in order to create space. So, if the movement of offensive team has created space on the flank in the moment when the CM got himself on the flank, the CM becomes the winger or whatever he is instructed to be in that case. Teams have prepared ideas how to create space, for whom and where. 

I am not sure if I am explaining this well, what I really want to say is that football is more dynamic and what happens on the pitch depends on action of the team on the ball and the reaction of the team without  the ball. In the game, though, the action of the team on the ball is way too strict, linear and predictable compared to real football. It simply doesn't create same problems for the defending team as it does in football. It simply lacks movement. I think that is a part of the reason why we see the ME constantly swinging from one weakness to the other. Before it can move forward, it absolutely needs better movement from the team that has the ball. The ME on offensive phase desperately lacks fake runs, speculative runs, quick changes of direction... These things constantly happen off the ball but you will extremely rarely see most of them in the game. Before that is sorted out, there is no meaningful way forward.

The most evident example of this is probably the DLF and F9 (who can honestly say to know what is the difference between the two?). They both should drop deep and they even do so within the ME. However, that movement doesn't mean anything if players around the F9 don't make runs into space he has left. This dynamic movement completely lacks in the FM and you can probably remember delight each time you see something like that happen in the game. That is a sure sign it doesn't really happen as much as it should since players don't really cooperate but perform individual trademark moves that work or don't, based not on a coherent game plan or idea, but on a chance. All this said, Svenc has a point. Current roles/duties don't really represent what happens in real and the football doesn't convey believable representation of football. For whatever reason. So, maybe a switch to a more "railroaded" approach argued by Svenc would make the game more simple, accessible, and more football like.

Even if all this could be done in the game, it would completely destroy defensive phase in the ME. So, I kind of understand why we still didn't see this, so did I mention that Svenc might have a point?

 

Sorry for a long post.

 

Edited October 14, 2019 by MBarbaric

[herne79]

12 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

I believe there is a problem with this statement so let me try to explain my reasoning behind it.

From your lengthy post I'm not seeing the problem with my original statement?  You even agreed with it:

13 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

So what happens in the game is that a winger really is "one dimensional -run down the touchline and cross".

Or are you saying the problem is that the in-game traditional "Winger" role has less and less relevance in modern football (which isn't what my post referred to)?  If that's the case I'd agree and disagree - at the top or even secondary level it is perhaps a valid point but go lower down the pyramid and "tactics" can be pretty archaic (yet still effective).  And the game is aimed at all levels of football, not just top teams.

We use the tools we have.  So at present if we find the "Winger" role too one-dimensional then we can do something about it, which is my point.  Changing those tools is a whole different kettle of fish and a different conversation, which I believe is your point.

[redders1977]

I reckon alot of this is down to phases of play... I get a great chance. One one one with keeper. It's saved/blocked, and that was the only chance I get from this particular bit of action/animation. So even though my team still has the ball and may be in a great position to throw it back in the box, the AI makes the crosser overhit it by miles or its blocked for a throw in... And that particular bit of action is over..

[RBKalle]

The issue isn't even with wingers being one-dimensional, but with them being pants at it!

No reason for top-level players playing target practice with the defenders when crossing, despite having had plenty of time and the ability to pull it off more than comfortably.

[herne79]

32 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

The issue isn't even with wingers being one-dimensional, but with them being pants at it!

No reason for top-level players playing target practice with the defenders when crossing, despite having had plenty of time and the ability to pull it off more than comfortably.

There are 2 issues.

One is the issue I am talking about, that being if someone asks "how to reduce crossing" my answer is based on the tools which we actually have within our control, for example trying a different role.

The other issue is the one you are talking about - changing the coding of the game.

So long term we may see coding changes, but until that happens we can only deal with what we have.

[Svenc]

3 hours ago, redders1977 said:

I reckon alot of this is down to phases of play... I get a great chance. One one one with keeper. It's saved/blocked, and that was the only chance I get from this particular bit of action/animation. So even though my team still has the ball and may be in a great position to throw it back in the box, the AI makes the crosser overhit it by miles or its blocked for a throw in... And that particular bit of action is over..

Just saying, this is not how the ME works. May be useful to know as a Player, but is even more important if you'd report Bugs. The ME is a sequence by sequence, kick by kick calcuation. It doesn't artificially make a crosser overhit anything. The Thing to fix therefore here would be defenders too easily getting in the way of a cross -- or the winger too easily hitting the Defender. Which can have a Variety of reasons, some of which sometimes not at all obvious, as it may be related to faulty off the ball movement many seconds to the actual incident i.e. cross/block earlier, etc.. The end result would be a second actual Chance in the same "highlight".

Edited October 14, 2019 by Svenc

[redders1977]

2 hours ago, Svenc said:

Just saying, this is not how the ME works. May be useful to know as a Player, but is even more important if you'd report Bugs. The ME is a sequence by sequence, kick by kick calcuation. It doesn't artificially make a crosser overhit anything. The Thing to fix therefore here would be defenders too easily getting in the way of a cross -- or the winger too easily hitting the Defender. Which can have a Variety of reasons, some of which sometimes not at all obvious, as it may be related to faulty off the ball movement many seconds to the actual incident i.e. cross/block earlier, etc.. The end result would be a second actual Chance in the same "highlight".

Thats not what I see. Once the sequence has ended but the video/animation highlight is still playing, I see a cross that goes out for a goal kick by miles, or a misplaced pass for example. Every game

You also see the kick off, and if it's not an early goal, you see a misplaced pass... just so you can see the kick off

[WojciechZed]

When the OP makes a post and all you can do is read it, nod and think 'yep, that pretty much happens', you know he is onto something.

I think people that try to explain this away on your tactics, are kidding themselves. 'Surely there isn't something wrong with my game? There can't be. It must be me. I'll try to improve. This games is perfect'.

This, much like the issue of a defending team having more possession than the much better attacking team, isn't how things work in football. Even if you play attacking possession football in FM, the defending weaker team still often has more possession than you, or at least about even. 

With crossing, even if you set your tactics to focus play down the middle and cross early, you still see this problem with constant blocking. The amount of times I have seen my good quality full backs or wingers finish a match with a 0% ratio of attempted crosses, is, to put it frankly, too much. Usually when a winger or full back has a poor game IRL, it is because most of their crosses were not accurate, either too strong, or yes, occasionally too weak and didn't make it past the first defender (but that defender wasn't 2 yards isn't 1 yard away from them and they don't hit it straight at him), but even then, it doesn't happen in every other match.

[Tony Wright 747]

10 minutes ago, WojciechZed said:

When the OP makes a post and all you can do is read it, nod and think 'yep, that pretty much happens', you know he is onto something.

I think people that try to explain this away on your tactics, are kidding themselves. 'Surely there isn't something wrong with my game? There can't be. It must be me. I'll try to improve. This games is perfect'.

This, much like the issue of a defending team having more possession than the much better attacking team, isn't how things work in football. Even if you play attacking possession football in FM, the defending weaker team still often has more possession than you, or at least about even. 

With crossing, even if you set your tactics to focus play down the middle and cross early, you still see this problem with constant blocking. The amount of times I have seen my good quality full backs or wingers finish a match with a 0% ratio of attempted crosses, is, to put it frankly, too much. Usually when a winger or full back has a poor game IRL, it is because most of their crosses were not accurate, either too strong, or yes, occasionally too weak and didn't make it past the first defender (but that defender wasn't 2 yards isn't 1 yard away from them and they don't hit it straight at him), but even then, it doesn't happen in every other match.

I agree and refer to my reply above

[HUNT3R]

37 minutes ago, WojciechZed said:

When the OP makes a post and all you can do is read it, nod and think 'yep, that pretty much happens', you know he is onto something.

I think people that try to explain this away on your tactics, are kidding themselves. 'Surely there isn't something wrong with my game? There can't be. It must be me. I'll try to improve. This games is perfect'.

This, much like the issue of a defending team having more possession than the much better attacking team, isn't how things work in football. Even if you play attacking possession football in FM, the defending weaker team still often has more possession than you, or at least about even. 

With crossing, even if you set your tactics to focus play down the middle and cross early, you still see this problem with constant blocking. The amount of times I have seen my good quality full backs or wingers finish a match with a 0% ratio of attempted crosses, is, to put it frankly, too much. Usually when a winger or full back has a poor game IRL, it is because most of their crosses were not accurate, either too strong, or yes, occasionally too weak and didn't make it past the first defender (but that defender wasn't 2 yards isn't 1 yard away from them and they don't hit it straight at him), but even then, it doesn't happen in every other match.

It's a bit of both.

1. It's absolutely possible to have decent cross completion ratios. I haven't struggled with this in FM19 at all. Of course I still see blocked crosses and I will agree that it's too many, but it's just pure silliness to go "ME problem - I can't do anything". With the crosses and shot issues, you can improve these things tactically. That said -

2. It's also half a ME issue. Players don't take the extra touch to really try and beat the fullback/marker to get the cross in. They don't make enough of an effort to get a 'clean' shot off or to recycle the ball instead of shooting at defenders.

 

So as Herne said, it's something we can improve tactically. The AI can't, but we're supposed to be smarter than them. It was a similar issue with the 3 striker problem of FM18. We could set up to defend against 3 strikers. I definitely could. AI teams struggled though.

[herne79]

1 hour ago, WojciechZed said:

With crossing, even if you set your tactics to focus play down the middle and cross early, you still see this problem with constant blocking.

This is my main problem with the tactics creator.  Telling your team to focus play down the middle does not necessarily equate to them actually doing it.  Just like work ball into box is not a magic button to eliminate long shots or shorter passing means every pass will be short.  That's not made clear in the TC.

Tactical instructions are tendencies, not strict orders.  And further, play will tend to migrate to where there is space on the pitch.  So whilst telling your players to play through the middle may increase the tendency for them to look for a central player to pass to, if they don't have a team mate free to receive the pass, they probably won't.  Likewise with cross early they may tend to look for an early cross but unless someone is suitably positioned in the area the cross will land, they probably won't cross.  Or they do cross but because it's such a high risk play it fails.  And to be honest that's perfectly logical because if they do cross to nobody or pass to a central heavily marked player, you'll probably lose possession.

And like I said, that's not made clear in the TC, hence confusion.

Personally I never use such instructions and yet I don't have a problem with crossing.  I rarely use work ball into box and yet I don't have an issue with long shots.  That's because of how I set things up, some of which I outline above.  But I could easily have a problem with crossing (or long shots) if I set things up differently and that is perhaps where the ME lets itself down, especially when people use aggressive player roles and/or tactics. 

So nobody has ever said the game is perfect, not even the developers, and it certainly doesn't help itself in some areas, but that doesn't mean there aren't things we may be able to do to help the situation.  Unfortunately they're not always obvious or forces us to move too far away from the tactical style we want to implement and that can be a problem in itself.

[WojciechZed]

Well I for one am not an avid critic of the match engine. As I said, it is a very difficult thing to do and I appreciate it being as good as it is, but yes, working on player intelligence to try and shoot when they have a bit of space or beat that full back and whip a cross in, would be great. Of course the players with lower attributes may indeed make a frustrating wrong decision and leave it too late to shoot or cross etc. It should not however be a general trend you see in FM matches, but more stuff you might see worse players do, or perhaps a good player having a very bad game once in a while.

[Armistice]

23 hours ago, herne79 said:

There are 2 issues.

One is the issue I am talking about, that being if someone asks "how to reduce crossing" my answer is based on the tools which we actually have within our control, for example trying a different role.

The other issue is the one you are talking about - changing the coding of the game.

So long term we may see coding changes, but until that happens we can only deal with what we have.

To be fair if the answer to blocked crosses is to reduce the number of them, to me it sounds as if you're indirectly admitting the flaw of the Match Engine.

It's not very difficult to spot that there's something going on with FM19 ME. I like how they implemented Play Ball out of Defence this year, the split of Tactical Instructions into three sections and hopefully that they sorted out what had to be sorted before 19.3 patch hit Steam. Anyway, I took a look at Rashidi's old videos of FM17, since people rave about FM17 ME as being one of the best if not the best ME in terms of how attacking football was played. Then I took a look at his FM19 videos. The difference is - let's say it this way - how predictable the highlights were on FM19 compared to FM17. On FM19 I could predict what his players were gonna do, in FM17 I couldn't.

 

And you were saying a few posts above that maybe the AI needs to visit the tactical forum - yes the AI probably needs to visit Rashidi YouTube channel or read some of Cleon's guides because the AI is just as important in this game as any other feature. If the AI is not able to create dynamic or whatever football it wants not only it bats an eye at the current state of the ME tools but it can become increasingly annoying how it can't pose any challenge after you've created a good enough squad.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Armistice

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Armistice said:

To be fair if the answer to blocked crosses is to reduce the number of them, to me it sounds as if you're indirectly admitting the flaw of the Match Engine.

Of course we can reduce the amount of blocked crosses by reducing the amount of crossing attempts.  That's not the ME, that's maths.

If you want to change the proportion of blocked crosses that's different, but there are still tactical and personnel issues which can help with that.  There are ME issues sure (as I keep saying btw) and those can be more prevalent depending on the style you are trying to create, so tactical and personnel solutions may be more or less effective.

1 hour ago, Armistice said:

And you were jokingly saying a few posts above that maybe the AI needs to visit the tactical forum

Fixed that for you.  Come on you know full well that was a joke, don't start using it as a stick.

[HUNT3R]

5 minutes ago, herne79 said:

If you want to change the proportion of blocked crosses that's different, but there are still tactical and personnel issues which can help with that.

Exactly. I see a lot of users complaining about this, but then using Work Ball Into Box for instance, which reduces the inclination to cross. What I saw when I used that in my system, which is supposed to be a control type approach, was a fullback who waited too long before deciding to cross. All I did was to remove it. Made a world of difference.

[Rashidi]

I think everyone will agree that there are way too many blocked crosses in the game. Can crossing work? Yes it can but most people aren't going to like being told they have to swap out a winger for a wide midfielder or play two support duties on one flank with them on overlap, making sure you make it easier by sticking a good target man in attack. That may just be too much information to wrap their heads around.

What people may just want is..

Quote

A winger is meant to be able to cross so why in the world are so many being blocked. If the shot is about to be blocked why doesn't he pass the ball back maybe try something else for a change?

That is a sentiment i think many people share, and while there are some of us who are just breezing through the game, its understandably frustrating to watch someone else do it easily while one struggles.

This reminds me of the time we didn't have overlaps instructions in the game, and people werel screaming that it should be easier to overlap. And we had people like me going its easy, just do a + b = overlap. The thing is not everyone is going to see it that way.

The more FM develops into a role based event simulation, the more its going to be important for people to select their roles wisely. 

You want to increase the chances of crosses being made, then choose the right roles. A winger will only be a good crosser of the ball if he is a lot faster than opposition players and you have to set up a system which overloads the flanks allowing him to attack the space.  The challenge is a lot higher because of his role which necessitates the trigger to happen in your own half. In other words the pass has to occur in your own half for the winger to get away into space. This means that the system itself has to be well thought out. So how are you going to get the triggers to hit all together. Thats a combination of roles/duties/defensive line/ line of engagement.

What's easier in the game is choosing a safer crossing option with a  WB/WM in combination in a 442 where the WB can make crosses easily.. The WB and WM work the chance to cross between themselves. You can even make it more interesting by opting to go overlap. Now the WB on support will use the chance to play the ball inside and then run out wide to be a crossing option. 

In Fm20 we will see a new role emerge and that is the IW, so chances are high the challenge to make him work will be even harder, because he specifically works in overloads. So people might pick the IW and then scream its not working, but those who are successful could be the ones whose brains are hard-wired to think of overloads (pure conjecture at this point ,but its only logical considering how the existing roles are playing).

So while its not impossible to get crossing working in the game, it is currently a challenge. The solutions may not be perfect for everyone but I am sure that given time many of you are going to be creatively coming up with your own crossing games.

[Icy]

On the other hand, if you want to see crossing succeed, play with a narrow formation, like diamond 4-4-2 (4-1-2-1-2) or 4-3-1-2 with attacking wingbacks and as the opposite team plays narrow to cover your central players, your wingback will join the attack being totally open most of the time and if instructed to cross from deep and does to the far post, he will be one of your team leaders in assists every season even if he is just average at crossing.

To me that is even more frustrating than the blocked crosses issue.

[Armistice]

23 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I think everyone will agree that there are way too many blocked crosses in the game. Can crossing work? Yes it can but most people aren't going to like being told they have to swap out a winger for a wide midfielder or play two support duties on one flank with them on overlap, making sure you make it easier by sticking a good target man in attack. That may just be too much information to wrap their heads around.

What people may just want is..

That is a sentiment i think many people share, and while there are some of us who are just breezing through the game, its understandably frustrating to watch someone else do it easily while one struggles.

This reminds me of the time we didn't have overlaps instructions in the game, and people werel screaming that it should be easier to overlap. And we had people like me going its easy, just do a + b = overlap. The thing is not everyone is going to see it that way.

The more FM develops into a role based event simulation, the more its going to be important for people to select their roles wisely. 

You want to increase the chances of crosses being made, then choose the right roles. A winger will only be a good crosser of the ball if he is a lot faster than opposition players and you have to set up a system which overloads the flanks allowing him to attack the space.  The challenge is a lot higher because of his role which necessitates the trigger to happen in your own half. In other words the pass has to occur in your own half for the winger to get away into space. This means that the system itself has to be well thought out. So how are you going to get the triggers to hit all together. Thats a combination of roles/duties/defensive line/ line of engagement.

What's easier in the game is choosing a safer crossing option with a  WB/WM in combination in a 442 where the WB can make crosses easily.. The WB and WM work the chance to cross between themselves. You can even make it more interesting by opting to go overlap. Now the WB on support will use the chance to play the ball inside and then run out wide to be a crossing option. 

In Fm20 we will see a new role emerge and that is the IW, so chances are high the challenge to make him work will be even harder, because he specifically works in overloads. So people might pick the IW and then scream its not working, but those who are successful could be the ones whose brains are hard-wired to think of overloads (pure conjecture at this point ,but its only logical considering how the existing roles are playing).

So while its not impossible to get crossing working in the game, it is currently a challenge. The solutions may not be perfect for everyone but I am sure that given time many of you are going to be creatively coming up with your own crossing games.

I’ve tried to write this post for an hour now so I’ll just summarize

- crossing works but way too many blocked crosses - other roles attempt crosses only to be blocked by the first man

- how can we have roles like the winger or attacking wingback so one-dimensional?

- why haven’t SI touched these roles in years but they were fussed to add fancy roles with fancy names?

- how a Premier League winger acts exactly the same as a National League winger?

[kamdonjacad]

On 13/10/2019 at 21:54, Armistice said:

Yeah you look at the thread title and think you heard this before and it's all down to YoUr TaCtIcS but I am seriously starting to believe that no matter what tactical instructions you set, the attacking play will look the same. Basically when the ball is in the central area in the final third, it gets pinged between a few players before being spread wide where the fullback will try to dribble past his direct marker. When he gets close to the Byline he will try to launch a cross that gets blocked very often. Rinse and repeat. The  crossword solver sip calculator epfo ball is again in central areas. One player has enough of this pinging the ball back and forth so he has a crack at goal despite 2-3 opposition players are infront of him and the shot gets blocked. Nevermind he takes another shot. He thinks this time there will be a different outcome. Nope.

Happens in 70% of the highlights. If you seeing different stuff please post screenshots. Thanks.

Btw this is not a rant topic, I'm asking if people see similar stuff.

Of course the players with lower attributes may indeed make a frustrating wrong decision and leave it too late to shoot or cross etc. I

Edited November 2, 2019 by kamdonjacad

[Armistice]

3 hours ago, kamdonjacad said:

Of course the players with lower attributes may indeed make a frustrating wrong decision and leave it too late to shoot or cross etc. I

Oh no, I have good players.

[Dagenham_Dave]

One aspect of this that is overlooked is what the game defines as a 'cross'. 

On your match stats screen, you will usually see a very low crossing percentage, which points to a lot of 'blocked crosses'. However, if you then go to the match analysis screen and go to the crossing section, it doesn't count the blocked ones as cross attempts, so you'll see the more accurate figure of where actual crosses go, whether they are made, intercepted, etc. 

If I see a defender 'block a cross' in the ways people mention above, I see that as the defender making a tackle before the cross is made. 

[sporadicsmiles]

On 16/10/2019 at 18:10, Armistice said:

- crossing works but way too many blocked crosses - other roles attempt crosses only to be blocked by the first man

 

If you are seeing a bunch of blocked crosses, and crossing is not working, then set up so you cross the ball less. Most of my assists come from crosses due to the way I setup, but when it is not working I change it up. 

On 16/10/2019 at 18:10, Armistice said:

- how can we have roles like the winger or attacking wingback so one-dimensional?

 

That depends on the player as well as the role. I have a guy who has high flair and likes to cut in from his wing. So most times he acts like a winger (as in stays wide, takes on his man, looks to cross). Sometimes he will cut inside and do something entirely unexpected and score or assist.

On 16/10/2019 at 18:10, Armistice said:

- why haven’t SI touched these roles in years but they were fussed to add fancy roles with fancy names?

 

What would you change? 

 

On 16/10/2019 at 18:10, Armistice said:

- how a Premier League winger acts exactly the same as a National League winger?

A winger is a winger. Whatever the division. In my experience you can clearly tell the difference between a quality winger and a poor one. 

[Armistice]

2 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

That depends on the player as well as the role. I have a guy who has high flair and likes to cut in from his wing. So most times he acts like a winger (as in stays wide, takes on his man, looks to cross). Sometimes he will cut inside and do something entirely unexpected and score or assist.

Yeah because it’s really unusual to see a winger cut inside once in a while. Like herne said, player roles are like a template of instructions but it doesn’t mean that the players will stick to it rigidly.