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Armistice

Learn the game tools? Sounds easier than it is

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Posted (edited)

Right so what I am doing atm is to play the same match over and over and try different TIs to see how it affects the game. Now LOE confuses me more.

Basically what I did was to set my team in a 4-1-4-1 formation (not the old 4-1-2-3) and played around with Defensive Line and Line of Engagement. While the Defensive Line was pretty obvious during the match, the Line of Engagement confused me more. Basically when I tested a low LOE my players were more disciplined in pressing the opponent and waited a bit more to trigger the press. While the high LOE made my players more aggressive in their press in a sense that they didn’t wait as much for the opponent player to get close to him.

 

If my observations are true, then what’s the point of Pressing Intensity? And Counter-Press instruction? These will just max out the pressing to the point where players run around like headless chickens?

Edited by Armistice

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Because you can still press with intensity in a low block, its just that the players wont initiate closing down until the opposition have come forward more.

Would be a good counter attack strategy, invite the opponent forward to leave space in behind, stay compact and deep, press and nick it off them and spring a counter.

Counter Press is where you aim to win the ball back quickly after losing possession, so capitalise on a player having to control the ball, being on his weaker foot, or panic him into poor passing options.

If you decide to press with less intensity youre using players to close off passing lanes rather than get in the opponents face.

All the options are different

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LOE affects when to press.

Urgency affects how quickly the player should close down.

Counter Press is quick pressing with unlimited LOE but for a limited time after you've lost the ball.

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7 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

LOE affects when to press.

Yeah it should but I didn’t notice that. Players were closing down the ball carrier in the same area of the pitch both on low LOE and high LOE.

It’s weird...

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1 hour ago, sporadicsmiles said:

You have a purely clean slate with the tactic? To PIs or TIs that will influence what you are seeing?

Yes, that was the point, to start clean and observe how each TI is affecting the team. I can post some screenshots of what I observed in Much Lower Defensive Line v Much Higher Defensive Line. I use the two extremes of each TI so the changes are easier to notice to an untrained eye like mine. ;)

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1 hour ago, Armistice said:

Yeah it should but I didn’t notice that. Players were closing down the ball carrier in the same area of the pitch both on low LOE and high LOE.

It’s weird...

Not sure what your looking at but it does affect it.

Mentality will play a big part, I don't think the line on the tactic screen will be the actual line on the pitch.

Was it a counter press? Ticking it will increase how often it's used, its still possible they do it without ticking.

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2 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Not sure what your looking at but it does affect it.

Mentality will play a big part, I don't think the line on the tactic screen will be the actual line on the pitch.

Was it a counter press? Ticking it will increase how often it's used, its still possible they do it without ticking.

I’m playing on Balanced, bang in the middle, as I thought it would be best to observe the players behaviour without any extra tendencies from the Mentality.

Maybe I should experiment with a 4-2-3-1 or maybe 4-4-2 diamond to have more players in the opposition half.

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Honestly it is not an experiment I have ever done, so I cannot really comment on it! Probably we need someone who is more in the know to comment on this to give you some clarity.

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11 hours ago, Armistice said:

Basically when I tested a low LOE my players were more disciplined in pressing the opponent and waited a bit more to trigger the press. While the high LOE made my players more aggressive in their press in a sense that they didn’t wait as much for the opponent player to get close to him.

That sounds correct.

11 hours ago, Armistice said:

If my observations are true, then what’s the point of Pressing Intensity?

More means the players move further away from position to press. The press should look more sustained and aggressive.  Conversely with less intensity players more inclined to stay zonally positioned and only engage in pressing an opposition player when in closer proximity.

11 hours ago, Armistice said:

And Counter-Press instruction?

I would describe that as the immediacy after losing possession.  Maybe this is only a thin line if you have a much higher line of engagement i.e. more obvious to see its affect with a lower LOE.

Like others I guess I haven't specifically looked at this, I'm not a tester, but the above is just my logic on how it may work.

Edited by Robson 07

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I'm getting mixed signals:

11 hours ago, Armistice said:

when I tested a low LOE my players were more disciplined in pressing the opponent and waited a bit more to trigger the press.

 

11 hours ago, Armistice said:

While the high LOE made my players more aggressive in their press in a sense that they didn’t wait as much for the opponent player to get close to him.

These two observations are correct.  The LoE determines when to start pressing, so as you say with a low LoE they waited to trigger the press, with the high LoE they engaged earlier.

However you then say:

2 hours ago, Armistice said:

Players were closing down the ball carrier in the same area of the pitch both on low LOE and high LOE.

This contradicts your first two observations which leaves me confused, so I think I'm missing something here?

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Black straight line = defensive line on Much Higher Defensive Line.

Red straight line = my bank of four midfielders.

Orange circles = opponent with the ball.

 

On low LOE, my players were more reserved to close down ball carriers when they were in positioned like the orange circles. They waited a bit more to engage pressing. Makes sense, right?

On high LOE, my players engage the ball carriers when they were positioned like the orange circles. This also makes sense, right?

LOE.png

Edited by Armistice

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23 minutes ago, herne79 said:

This contradicts your first two observations which leaves me confused, so I think I'm missing something here?

What I wanted to say is on high LOE I expected my players to engage the opposition players much higher up the pitch. The difference between the two extremes of LOE regarding the area where they press is quite similar. Maybe because of the formation defensive nature, right?

Edited by Armistice

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9 minutes ago, Armistice said:

But at the same time I felt the same effect could have been produced by setting individual PIs to Close Down More/Much More.

That PI setting is the urgency of the press not when to press.

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1 hour ago, Armistice said:

On low LOE, my players were more reserved to close down ball carriers when they were in positioned like the orange circles. They waited a bit more to engage pressing. Makes sense, right?

On high LOE, my players engage the ball carriers when they were positioned like the orange circles. This also makes sense, right?

Yes.

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58 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Yes.

So basically you can set a low/very low LOE with a higher closing down, right? LOE tells the players "hey wait until they get the ball to n point then start closing down" and the Close Down more instruction will tell my players to be more aggressive to win the ball back.

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1 minute ago, Armistice said:

So basically you can set a low/very low LOE with a higher closing down, right? LOE tells the players "hey wait until they get the ball to n point then start closing down" and the Close Down more instruction will tell my players to be more aggressive to win the ball back.

Yup :thup:.

In such a situation you may want to be more targeted with your amount of pressing by using player instructions rather than team instructions to get the right players pressing in the right area, but that's personal preference depending on what you want to achieve.

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Not to throw the topic off course, but where does Aggression play into this? In game, it says something like this

 Aggression reflects a player's attitude in terms of playing mentality but is not necessarily a dirtiness indicator. A more aggressive player will look to involve himself in every incident and get stuck in, perhaps at the expense of a yellow card or two. A less aggressive player may shy away from situations and merely drop into his comfort zone, waiting for the play to find him

The first part is about putting a foot in, second seems to hint at a pressing, or maybe it's an on the ball thing where they try & get more involved with play

 

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1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

Not to throw the topic off course, but where does Aggression play into this

Personally I view Aggression as a kind of "natural" pressing, ie., players with higher aggression are perhaps more likely to get involved, thus they'll be more willing to close down a player even without being told to do so via the pressing tactical setting.  That's not to say non-aggressive players won't close down, however I find it more complimentary to use aggressive players if I want to use a heavy pressing tactic.

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16 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

Not sure what your looking at but it does affect it.

Mentality will play a big part, I don't think the line on the tactic screen will be the actual line on the pitch.

Was it a counter press? Ticking it will increase how often it's used, its still possible they do it without ticking.

Exactly it's like real life many times players won't do certain things when their are supposed to everytime that's why we see managers screaming on the touchline

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Don't want to throw the thread off topic either, but I do have a quick question.

How does the Prevent Short GK distribution TI relate to setting your teams LOE? Is having a lower LOE but still using Preventing Short GK distribution a viable strategy? And if so when would this best be employed?

I also see alot of people in these forums recommend not using the Prevent Short GK distribution TI in favour of telling forward players to press more urgently and always wondered why they thought that was best

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On 11/10/2019 at 01:40, Strikerir1 said:

Exactly it's like real life many times players won't do certain things when their are supposed to everytime that's why we see managers screaming on the touchline

I wonder if Creative Freedom & Team Work (since it's related to following team instructions)  have any influence of the players off the ball decisions too?

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1 hour ago, camoulton21 said:

How does the Prevent Short GK distribution TI relate to setting your teams LOE?

The purpose of the PSGKD is to try and prevent the opposition from building up from the back and force them (the keeper or a defender) to clear it long instead. It tends not only to be more effective but also safer when you play in a top-heavy formation (e.g. 4231 or 424) or at least a medium-heavy one (e.g. 4123 a.k.a. 4141dm wide or narrow 433 with 3 actual strikers), because you already have enough players up front who can execute the instruction without moving too much away from their basic position. Conversely, when you use a "top-easy" formation (e.g. 442, 4411, let alone flat 4141), the PSGKD is considerably more risky because some of your midfilders (usually wide ones) will need to move further forward to help the forwards execute the instruction, which can leave a lot of space behind them for the opposition to exploit. 

 

2 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

Is having a lower LOE but still using Preventing Short GK distribution a viable strategy?

Well, when you play on a lower LOE, it basically means that you deliberately want to lure the opposition into attacking you so that you can hit them on the counter once you intercept their attack using the space they left behind. Therefore, the PSGKD makes less sense, though you can still use it as an option if you want to put some pressure on their defense in the initial phase of their build-up. Ultimately, it's a matter of one's personal preference. I personally would look to avoid the combination of lower LOE and PSGKD, but that's just me :) 

 

2 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

I also see alot of people in these forums recommend not using the Prevent Short GK distribution TI in favour of telling forward players to press more urgently and always wondered why they thought that was best

What you described here is the so-called split block (or split press, if you will). It means that you don't immediately look to stop the opposition from building from the back, but let them advance a bit before your players that are engaged in the split press start the pressing. In case you want to be as aggressive as possible, you can of course use both the split press and PSGKD at the same time, but this can be a bit of an overkill (and entails potential defensive risks). 

And also keep in mind that all these settings - like everything else btw - are automatically affected by the mentality you play on (the higher it is, the more aggressive your players will be, and vice versa).

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Cheers @Experienced Defender that clears a lot of things up. I've found that the Prevent Short GK Distribution TI has a really weird organisation when not playing with a top heavy formation which is unfortunate that your not able to organise your players formations when attempting to stop a teams short goalkicks.

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