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14 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

If those sacrifices are too big a chunk of your player base they won't happen. This conversation isn't new, to the point where Neil has spoken about the necessity of balancing pushing specs between the fact that so many FM players like to play on machines slightly more powerful than toasters (thanks to steam, SI know where their player base sits on the average gamer scale).

Whatever anyone's opinions are on this, this is a point that has to be taken onboard

Yeah i agree, it is very much a business at the end of the day and to keep the game and staff employed it needs as many people to play it.

 

Thats why Stadia really intrigues me. All the processing is done off site so it doesn't matter what laptop or device youre playing on 

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I still don't accept the argument that strangling the games development by not improving the graphics is necessary so people playing on older hardware can keep doing so. It may seem like a safe option in the short term but as a long term strategy its flawed. Seriously, who in this day and age expects to play the latest release of a computer game on a machine thats 7+ years old? Of course, Stadia, if rolled out correctly and with the addition of modding will help address this over time.

Yes, I do think we have a significant number of players that only play this game and are happy to keep playing on a PC or laptop they've not upgraded in years. I also think the demographic of those same people are probably 30's and above, who most likely also have the means to upgrade if they are required to do so. 

The game must strive to attract new players, not rely on those of us who's being playing since day one of its inception. 

You could do a massive upgrade on the graphics for FM21 and FM20 and below will still be available to those who can't/won't upgrade. There are plenty of PC/Mac games which are graphically more demanding and sell way better than FM. 

 

Edited by janrzm

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52 minutes ago, janrzm said:

I still don't accept the argument that strangling the games development by not improving the graphics is necessary so people playing on older hardware can keep doing so. It may seem like a safe option in the short term but as a long term strategy its flawed. Seriously, who in this day and age expects to play the latest release of a computer game on a machine thats 7+ years old? Of course, Stadia, if rolled out correctly and with the addition of modding will help address this over time.

Yes, I do think we have a significant number of players that only play this game and are happy to keep playing on a PC or laptop they've not upgraded in years. I also think the demographic of those same people are probably 30's and above, who most likely also have the means to upgrade if they are required to do so. 

The game must strive to attract new players, not rely on those of us who's being playing since day one of its inception. 

You could do a massive upgrade on the graphics for FM21 and FM20 and below will still be available to those who can't/won't upgrade. There are plenty of PC/Mac games which are graphically more demanding and sell way better than FM. 

 

You might not accept it, but that is the place SI are in. We cant expect SI to acknowledge views and opinions if we can't acknowledge their position, otherwise whats the point in discourse?

The game did attract new players. Between FM18 and FM19, sales jumped from 1.2m across all platforms to 1.9m. Again I think people keep forgetting that none of what we have said is likely to be new to SI. 

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1 hora atrás, janrzm disse:

Seriously, who in this day and age expects to play the latest release of a computer game on a machine thats 7+ years old? Of course, Stadia, if rolled out correctly and with the addition of modding will help address this over time.

If that's the threshold, me. My laptop is 8yo. Just added more RAM meanwhile (4 to 8GB).

I'm very excited for Stadia, but sadly, my country doesn't have it yet.

Edited by 99

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19 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

You might not accept it, but that is the place SI are in. We cant expect SI to acknowledge views and opinions if we can't acknowledge their position, otherwise whats the point in discourse?

The game did attract new players. Between FM18 and FM19, sales jumped from 1.2m across all platforms to 1.9m. Again I think people keep forgetting that none of what we have said is likely to be new to SI. 

I'm not in a debate with SI. I haven't seen anyone from SI come on here and say we can't improve the graphics because too many people run old computers and wouldn't upgrade. They certainly won't upgrade if they never need to. I'm not refusing to accept their position, I'm refusing to accept it's a good idea, thats totally different. I can hold a balanced conversation with anyone, expressing my view does not mean I am unable to acknowledge theirs. 

 

Edited by janrzm

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8 minutes ago, 99 said:

If that's the threshold, me. My laptop is 8yo. Just added more RAM meanwhile (4 to 8GB).

I'm very excited for Stadia, but sadly, my country doesn't have it yet.

I play the game on a 2013 iMac. If a version of the game came out with amazing graphics that necessitated an upgrade I'd personally find a way to do that. As it stands I'll probably still be able to play FM for many years. 

I'm also excited for Stadia and in a country that doesn't have it......needs modding though or I won't do it. :) 

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4 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

You might not accept it, but that is the place SI are in. We cant expect SI to acknowledge views and opinions if we can't acknowledge their position, otherwise whats the point in discourse?

The game did attract new players. Between FM18 and FM19, sales jumped from 1.2m across all platforms to 1.9m. Again I think people keep forgetting that none of what we have said is likely to be new to SI. 

But is there not a difference between Sales and customer satisfaction ? For example the game NBA 2K20 on Steam has disastrous reviews but yet have sold heaps otherwise they could not be reviewed ? I think expectations are so high for Football Manager , ,and rightly so , that people will pre order plus being the only true Simulator around in this format  . Im not a fan of FM19 or FM18 but will order FM20 in hope its a lot better . Yes there's a DEMO !!! but its only a small reflection of the game as a whole . A lot of people are very happy with FM19 but I bet they are looking for significant improvements .

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vor 9 Stunden schrieb janrzm:

I still don't accept the argument that strangling the games development by not improving the graphics is necessary so people playing on older hardware can keep doing so. It may seem like a safe option in the short term but as a long term strategy its flawed. Seriously, who in this day and age expects to play the latest release of a computer game on a machine thats 7+ years old? Of course, Stadia, if rolled out correctly and with the addition of modding will help address this over time.

Yes, I do think we have a significant number of players that only play this game and are happy to keep playing on a PC or laptop they've not upgraded in years. I also think the demographic of those same people are probably 30's and above, who most likely also have the means to upgrade if they are required to do so. 

The game must strive to attract new players, not rely on those of us who's being playing since day one of its inception. 

You could do a massive upgrade on the graphics for FM21 and FM20 and below will still be available to those who can't/won't upgrade. There are plenty of PC/Mac games which are graphically more demanding and sell way better than FM. 

 

its just a excuse, not more. How many peope running fm on a 15 years old machine? I cant imagine its a lot, you have to move on and this people will follow anyway. Most of the time the hardware even not last long that long.

With such a behavior you never take steps forward. If every company would work like this, we still would play games with gameboy graphics.

Edited by KiLLu12258

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7 minutes ago, KiLLu12258 said:

With such a behavior you never take steps forward. If every company would work like this, we still would play games with gameboy graphics. Come on.

It's not that much effort to implement some minor features like we see now as for FM 20, definitely not as much as its is with ME and animations. But still guarantee great sale. So it looks like making good money for DLCs in fact and that finally means awesome business. If it works every year why doing some revolutionary changes???

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15 minutes ago, armbi said:

It's not that much effort to implement some minor features like we see now as for FM 20, definitely not as much as its is with ME and animations. But still guarantee great sale. So it looks like making good money for DLCs in fact and that finally means awesome business. If it works every year why doing some revolutionary changes???

The question is this model sustainable in the long term.  One of FM's selling points is it's reputation thats what makes people preorder every year even before they know what is in the game.  I have been on these forums since the mid noughties and the disatisfaction seems to increase year on year, by that I don't mean with things like bugs and small issues, but disatisfaction with the core of the game.  If this trend continues there is the possibility that the current business model will need to change.

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3 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

The question is this model sustainable in the long term.  One of FM's selling points is it's reputation thats what makes people preorder every year even before they know what is in the game.  I have been on these forums since the mid noughties and the disatisfaction seems to increase year on year, by that I don't mean with things like bugs and small issues, but disatisfaction with the core of the game.  If this trend continues there is the possibility that the current business model will need to change.

It's been sustainable for well over a decade. The forum contains a tiny percentage. There's about 300 members here at any given time, you could all stop playing and it wouldn't even be a drop in the ocean so there's no evidence SI should consider their business model based on Joe bloggs opinion on a forum, and nor should they, that's not good business. Which is partly why they keep that to themselves. 

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The Key question is when do you cut off?

If you make the argument that 10 year old laptops need to be able to play it, why not 20 year old laptops? It is a sticking point. At some point for the good of the game you need to go, "these are our minimum requirements, we have them because this is our vision for the game and to deliver that we need these requirements". Again im not arguing that minimum specs should be beast of a machine but it shouldn't be based on the average computer over 10 years ago.

No one i arguing for fifa level graphics but we are arguing that mobile games with much smaller teams and budgets are capable of delivering much better looking graphics. The team a SI should be able to do better than what is currently delivered.

 

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23 hours ago, gunner86 said:

You must have been one of the lucky ones that had the required 16mb of RAM then.

I seem to remember that I begged my Dad to upgrade the computer just so I could play with 3 leagues. 

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1 minute ago, aj6658 said:

The Key question is when do you cut off?

If you make the argument that 10 year old laptops need to be able to play it, why not 20 year old laptops? It is a sticking point. At some point for the good of the game you need to go, "these are our minimum requirements, we have them because this is our vision for the game and to deliver that we need these requirements". Again im not arguing that minimum specs should be beast of a machine but it shouldn't be based on the average computer over 10 years ago.

No one i arguing for fifa level graphics but we are arguing that mobile games with much smaller teams and budgets are capable of delivering much better looking graphics. The team a SI should be able to do better than what is currently delivered.

 

When the people you are cutting off are a small enough of a number that it isn't such an impact. For example, FM20 requirements have changed, anyone noticed that 32bit support has been dropped? One of FMs unique selling points is that virtually anyone can play. Stadia if it goes well, will be another strand to that. But because of that USP it's a fine line 

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4 minutes ago, aj6658 said:

The Key question is when do you cut off?

If you make the argument that 10 year old laptops need to be able to play it, why not 20 year old laptops? It is a sticking point. At some point for the good of the game you need to go, "these are our minimum requirements, we have them because this is our vision for the game and to deliver that we need these requirements". Again im not arguing that minimum specs should be beast of a machine but it shouldn't be based on the average computer over 10 years ago.

No one i arguing for fifa level graphics but we are arguing that mobile games with much smaller teams and budgets are capable of delivering much better looking graphics. The team a SI should be able to do better than what is currently delivered.

 

SI will be aware of the specs of laptops/pcs playing the game, so they will make a call on these things. I can't remember when it was when the lighting system received an overhaul to have a proper day night cycle etc, but there were a lot of tech issue posts about the match day being completely 'red'. Those were all players who played using laptops below minimum requirements. They will need to weigh up the % of users they'll 'lose' with a higher minimum spec, but at the same time, the potential % gain because of the improvements. FM is still a niche product and can't even compare to the likes of FIFA in terms of sales.

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6 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

SI will be aware of the specs of laptops/pcs playing the game, so they will make a call on these things. I can't remember when it was when the lighting system received an overhaul to have a proper day night cycle etc, but there were a lot of tech issue posts about the match day being completely 'red'. Those were all players who played using laptops below minimum requirements. They will need to weigh up the % of users they'll 'lose' with a higher minimum spec, but at the same time, the potential % gain because of the improvements. FM is still a niche product and can't even compare to the likes of FIFA in terms of sales.

Genuine question - From memory, the sales figures for FM19 were around 2m copies? across all platforms, of those how many were sold through the likes of Steam where SI can establish the hardware used and how many are physical copies where there is no hardware info available? Not sure you'll know but asking anyway as it's pertinent to the discussion.

Also, it's not just about the hardware being used, it's about the demographic of the end user and do they ultimately have the means to upgrade. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I only play FM and I am playing FM19 at the highest graphical settings on a 2013 iMac. If the game required me to upgrade I would do so, but it doesn't so I just keep going. I suspect I'm not alone in that. 

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2 minutes ago, janrzm said:

Genuine question - From memory, the sales figures for FM19 were around 2m copies? across all platforms, of those how many were sold through the likes of Steam where SI can establish the hardware used and how many are physical copies where there is no hardware info available? Not sure you'll know but asking anyway as it's pertinent to the discussion.

Yes. End of July it was reported that FM19 across all platforms sold over 2m copies. It's likely a bit more currently. That's pretty much all I know. I'm not sure how exactly they track everything, but remember, you need Steam to activate the game regardless of how it was purchased, digital or physical.

4 minutes ago, janrzm said:

Also, it's not just about the hardware being used, it's about the demographic of the end user and do they ultimately have the means to upgrade. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I only play FM and I am playing FM19 at the highest graphical settings on a 2013 iMac. If the game required me to upgrade I would do so, but it doesn't so I just keep going. I suspect I'm not alone in that.

That's what SI need to weigh up, as I said. Some can afford to upgrade; others not, so those will be the 'lost' sales.

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26 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

SI will be aware of the specs of laptops/pcs playing the game, so they will make a call on these things. I can't remember when it was when the lighting system received an overhaul to have a proper day night cycle etc, but there were a lot of tech issue posts about the match day being completely 'red'. Those were all players who played using laptops below minimum requirements. They will need to weigh up the % of users they'll 'lose' with a higher minimum spec, but at the same time, the potential % gain because of the improvements. FM is still a niche product and can't even compare to the likes of FIFA in terms of sales.

The game is niche and i think thats because it has this reputation of being a niche game. Perception is so important. It will probably never be a mainstream game as such because of the time commitment and lack of pick up and play element that is needed.

If i love football and i play FIFA and i see FM for the first time i will automatically not be interested in the game. It looks like a game for nerds because i would think to tolerate this graphics it must be really niche and nerdy. 

 

There is no way to measure reliably the gain from improving graphics but there is for the loss.

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1 hour ago, aj6658 said:

The game is niche and i think thats because it has this reputation of being a niche game. Perception is so important. It will probably never be a mainstream game as such because of the time commitment and lack of pick up and play element that is needed.

Niche!? Game is consistently top 10 in steam charts despite being a yearly release. Even older releases beat out new triple AAA games regularly. If this game is niche what are other games lol. Game is far from niche. 

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6 minutes ago, Double0Seven said:

Niche!? Game is consistently top 10 in steam charts despite being a yearly release. Even older releases beat out new triple AAA games regularly. If this game is niche what are other games lol. Game is far from niche. 

Consider FM selling ±2m units across all platforms.

FIFA18 did 24m. As of Feb 2019, FIFA19 sat at 20m copies sold. GTA5 sold around 11m copies in the first 24 hours! Quickly looking up other big name games, they sell 20-30m 'normally'.

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14 minutes ago, Double0Seven said:

Niche!? Game is consistently top 10 in steam charts despite being a yearly release. Even older releases beat out new triple AAA games regularly. If this game is niche what are other games lol. Game is far from niche. 

"I love the internet. You can just state **** like it's fact."

                                                                                  -Jesus (ca. 1744)

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3 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

When the people you are cutting off are a small enough of a number that it isn't such an impact. For example, FM20 requirements have changed, anyone noticed that 32bit support has been dropped? One of FMs unique selling points is that virtually anyone can play. Stadia if it goes well, will be another strand to that. But because of that USP it's a fine line 

Like a genuine Q; what is the significance of 64 bit?  What could it entail? 

Edited by aj6658

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1 hour ago, Double0Seven said:

Niche!? Game is consistently top 10 in steam charts despite being a yearly release. Even older releases beat out new triple AAA games regularly. If this game is niche what are other games lol. Game is far from niche. 

Considering the potential game market and number of people who love football as a sport and the very low requirements need for the game - 2m is not big.  The game is only really in two markets - germany and the UK. There are sales elsewhere but it is dominated by these markets.

 

Its a specific product for a specific subgroup and is  highly specialised, by definition it is a niche product 

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11 minutes ago, aj6658 said:

Like a genuine Q; what is the significance of 64 bit?  What could it entail? 

Simply put, it can handle more data at once. Also 32-bit can only handle a limited amount of ram, 4GB, 64bit's limit is much higher than this. Means that you can demand more of your software by not having it "watered down" cater for 32bit hardware. Things that could take advantage of this would be AI processing, transfer module etc. Basically you can make your bottom level that much higher. I'm very much guessing here, but would presume that's happened because 32-bit is enough in the minority that they can drop said users (only SI will know that for sure)

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5 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

Again something you could already do

Not really at the moment its automatic going by this it gives you the choice.

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7 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

Again something you could already do

Might be wrong, but it sounds like when you bring in staff and he/she will replace a staff member already in that position, you can give that staff member another role, rather than sack him.

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15 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Might be wrong, but it sounds like when you bring in staff and he/she will replace a staff member already in that position, you can give that staff member another role, rather than sack him.

That's not what I'm getting from this, though would be nice to see.

I'm seeing it as if you have, let's say HoYD, and you find a better one, and the old one handles contract negotiations for young players, then you could choose at the point of replacement if the new HoYD also takes on these responsibilities.

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9 minutes ago, gunner86 said:

That's not what I'm getting from this, though would be nice to see.

I'm seeing it as if you have, let's say HoYD, and you find a better one, and the old one handles contract negotiations for young players, then you could choose at the point of replacement if the new HoYD also takes on these responsibilities.

Ah, interesting. Your view makes more sense. :thup:

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1 hour ago, aj6658 said:

Considering the potential game market and number of people who love football as a sport and the very low requirements need for the game - 2m is not big.  The game is only really in two markets - germany and the UK. There are sales elsewhere but it is dominated by these markets.

You're right that the UK and Germany have been traditionally the biggest markets for football management games -- by far. I'd still love to see German numbers by the way. I doubt they are that popular yet (they hadn't been Prior at all -- CM/FM has Always been a total niche in Germany, as the German market was dominated by domestic products such as On The Ball / Fifa and Bundesliga Manager. They have also been slightly different kinda games. So establishing FM would take some time -- and may be a challenge). The game Prior btw. had the biggest single market in the UK, but don't underestimate worldwide Sales. They summed up big time  (in various Scandinavian countries it's Always been a top seller on the PC Charts for a good while, hence back in the Champ Man days I think they even got their specific localized Editions).

Former Steamspy on FM 2016, for instance (it's legit to doubt it's accuracy, but the General trend I think is/was About Right). I suspect China has grown significantly since though. I also think the 2m quoted may be accross all Releases, not merely the main PC game.

OGq3R2G.jpg

Edited by Svenc

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1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Simply put, it can handle more data at once. Also 32-bit can only handle a limited amount of ram, 4GB, 64bit's limit is much higher than this. Means that you can demand more of your software by not having it "watered down" cater for 32bit hardware. Things that could take advantage of this would be AI processing, transfer module etc. Basically you can make your bottom level that much higher. I'm very much guessing here, but would presume that's happened because 32-bit is enough in the minority that they can drop said users (only SI will know that for sure)

Plus most support for 32bit games is slowly fading away

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29 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

The mods are going to be overworked tonight, I reckon. 

I'm setting some time aside tomorrow morning at work to read through the pant-wetting when x and y features aren't to the forum's collective liking :D

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Someone's just posted a pic of the new graphic improvements on another site. If it looks like this, I'm impressed. Loving the shading on the new stands ;)

Joking aside, I'm just looking forward to seeing what the new game looks like. I lost my mojo with FM19 in March and absence sure has made the heart grow fonder.

 

 

 

 

lowry-goingtothematch-large.jpg

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2 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

The mods are going to be overworked tonight, I reckon. 

I'm going out for popcorn now.

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6 часов назад, Double0Seven сказал:

Niche!? Game is consistently top 10 in steam charts despite being a yearly release. Even older releases beat out new triple AAA games regularly. If this game is niche what are other games lol. Game is far from niche. 

omg check Steam games. Some good games for complete and delete, but if we talk about games with hundreds and even thousands of hours, there are crap like PUBG, Destiny 2, etc. No real difficultly to be in top10 there.

For sure FM is niche game where you need to know very specific infromation about tactic, management, etc. And count of members there is nothing, because football watch billions literally, play in FM - 2 mln, less of 1%

Edited by Novem9

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6 часов назад, HUNT3R сказал:

Consider FM selling ±2m units across all platforms.

FIFA18 did 24m. As of Feb 2019, FIFA19 sat at 20m copies sold. GTA5 sold around 11m copies in the first 24 hours! Quickly looking up other big name games, they sell 20-30m 'normally'.

The greatest fact about GTA V - budget of game was bigger all Hollywood movies (except one of the part Pirates of the Caribbean) and game was paid off in preorder already :thup::lol: Damn I bought this game twice - first time in Xbox360 in release day and few years later in PS4 in Christmas sales.

Cyberpunk 2077 was in preorder few hours and this time is enough to be #1 in top of sales in Steam! Have no idea how people can to compare bestsellers with FM which exactly niche at all.

Edited by Novem9

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34 minuti fa, Novem9 ha scritto:

The greatest fact about GTA V - budget of game was bigger all Hollywood movies (except one of the part Pirates of the Caribbean) 

Only one thing not so important:

Not only Pirates. 

Avengers (2012)

Man in Black 3 (2012)

2012 (2009)

Man of Steel (2013)

Line Ranger (2013)

Dark Knight Roses (2013)

Tangled (2010)

And many others had a bigger budget of GTAV at the time, that was 265M BUT production and marketing combined. (While usually  for movies you find only production budget )

 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

Line Ranger (2013)

I know this is a typo, or autocorrect, but I can’t help but think this would have made a much more interesting film

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23 минуты назад, FlorianAlbert9 сказал:

Only one thing not so important:

Not only Pirates. 

Avengers (2012)

Man in Black 3 (2012)

2012 (2009)

Man of Steel (2013)

Line Ranger (2013)

Dark Knight Roses (2013)

Tangled (2010)

And many others had a bigger budget of GTAV at the time, that was 265M BUT production and marketing combined. (While usually  for movies you find only production budget )

 

 

 

 

whatever

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Unfortunatley slightly improved graphics but animations the same :( No dribbles, no new colisions, no 1on1 with GKs :(

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2 minutes ago, armbi said:

Unfortunatley slightly improved graphics but animations the same :( No dribbles, no new colisions, no 1on1 with GKs :(

Miles said it's 4 weeks/4ME's ago so the'd have probably worked on it alot. I guess we'll see the difference in the beta/full release. 

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Just now, BigV said:

Miles said it's 4 weeks/4ME's ago so the'd have probably worked on it alot. I guess we'll see the difference in the beta/full release. 

this is the last hope :(

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More annoying seeing them tear my beloved-ed Brentford. Wrong players in wrong roles :herman: 
I have one question, is expected goals going to be in it?

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8 minutes ago, armbi said:

Unfortunatley slightly improved graphics but animations the same :( No dribbles, no new colisions, no 1on1 with GKs :(

They have only showed 1 friendly, give it a chance.

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