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Can this be the first year we'll have a first look at the match gameplay when we get the beta? It's amazing that the game is just around the corner and we didn't get a single glimpse yet at how the match looks like.

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1 minute ago, Double0Seven said:

I don't think people realise here that graphics are important to a game. Nobody is asking for insanely good graphics, but the fact that the game is looking worse then most mobile games in 2019 is not great. Even with these minimum specs, I've already pointed out that there are many games out there that do better with these minimum specs or even worse. So it's not like lower end PC's will suffer. 

Opinion is not fact.

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22 minutes ago, CFuller said:

Opinion is not fact.

But this is not an opinion? Just look at the games in the play store. There are games with a much more modern looking engine and most likely models with much more polygons resulting in more detailed looks. That's not an "opinion" when it's facts. 

Also my other example that you ignored mentions how games with lower specs run better graphics. Prime example, Pes/FIFA of a decade ago. Maybe that's an opinion, but if you put FIFA 09 aside FM 2019 I doubt many people would say FM 2019 looks that much better. Especially the animations, grass, stadiums and overall atmosphere. 

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Exactly, and better graphics will also drive in newer players. If people were only playing games for gameplay we could have stopped at text or 2d forever. The newer generation appreciates some better graphics. Considering many games do this without ruining the experience for lower end PCs, I cant imagine the player gain of better graphics would lower the experience for anyone. Its a win-win situation as I see it. 

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Score Match's graphics don't look that much better than FM19's - in my opinion.

My main issue here is that people are promoting their own opinions - and popular views on very subjective things such as graphics - as facts.

"Ronaldo is a better footballer than Messi" IS NOT a fact by itself, but an opinion. "Ronaldo has scored more Champions League goals than Messi" is a fact. Likewise, saying that one pop singer is more physically-attractive than another is to state an opinion, while pointing out that one has more chart-topping singles than the other is to state a fact.

Anyway, why does a PC game have to look better than a mobile game? Look at this list of most-played games on Steam, and you'll find plenty there that you could argue don't match up to the more sophisticated mobile titles.

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4 minuti fa, CFuller ha scritto:

Score Match's graphics don't look that much better than FM19's - in my opinion.

it doesn't look much better but it does look better, doesn't it?

 

5 minuti fa, CFuller ha scritto:

My main issue here is that people are promoting their own opinions - and popular views on very subjective things such as graphics - as facts.

If all opinions are equal, I urge you to go to the nearest hospital and provide your opinion on treatment. 

 

5 minuti fa, CFuller ha scritto:

Anyway, why does a PC game have to look better than a mobile game? Look at this list of most-played games on Steam, and you'll find plenty there that you could argue don't match up to the more sophisticated mobile titles.

Top games by current player count
CURRENT PLAYERS PEAK TODAY   GAME
 
543,361 754,909   Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
507,428 644,373   Dota 2
444,228 571,380   PLAYERUNKNOWN'S BATTLEGROUNDS
168,273 233,397   Destiny 2
82,154 102,700   Grand Theft Auto V
71,523 110,416   Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Siege
53,598 67,330   Team Fortress 2
52,866 74,611   MONSTER HUNTER: WORLD
51,897 69,553   Rust
41,547 53,448  

Warframe

 

 

Have no idea what I did here, sorry about that.

Anyway, which game on this list looks as crappy as FM in 2019?

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11 minutes ago, CFuller said:

My main issue here is that people are promoting their own opinions - and popular views on very subjective things such as graphics - as facts.

 

Look I already pointed out to you that some things arent opinions. Are you going to argue that more modern graphic engines which produce more detailed models is worse looking? Even if a socccer player with more details under the hood can somehow be perceived as worse, I doubt showing people gameplay footage of FM compared with mobile games would somehow convince them FM is better looking. 

11 minutes ago, CFuller said:

"Ronaldo is a better footballer than Messi" IS NOT a fact by itself, but an opinion. "Ronaldo has scored more Champions League goals than Messi" is a fact. Likewise, saying that one pop singer is more physically-attractive than another is to state an opinion, while pointing out that one has more chart-topping singles than the other is to state a fact.

 

Are you explaining the difference between opinions and facts on a forum with mostly adults? Cmon man, we are not children. 

11 minutes ago, CFuller said:

Anyway, why does a PC game have to look better than a mobile game? Look at this list of most-played games on Steam, and you'll find plenty there that you could argue don't match up to the more sophisticated mobile titles.

Plenty? The first 10 games are majorly games that are good in the graphics department while still reaching many many players. Csgo and Dota are even free games. The reason why people want better graphics is for immersion. Asking why a PC game has to look better than a mobile game? Because a PC game has much more computing resources and is played on bigger screens hence the graphics are much more important. So expecting better graphics isnt out of the ordinary.

Edited by Double0Seven
responded to a post above

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3 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

Have no idea what I did here, sorry about that.

EDIT: What you did here was just write in the embedded steam post. It looks pretty cool and people can immediately click on the links so its fine. 

Edited by Double0Seven

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2 minutes ago, CFuller said:

It's pointless trying to argue with some people. I'm out.

Man two people seriously responded to you and this is your answer? 

All were trying to say is that FM graphics can be better these days. This is not a controversial opinion at all and I cant imagine someone defending the other side. Its only a win-win situation for everyone. 

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You can say that FM graphics can be better these days, but many people (me first) don't care about FM graphics.

In my opinion 3D ME like actually is enough. For some pepole the gameplay is above all how you creates your tactic and how you're manage your team.

And for some people, if player wants better graphics they have to play FIFA or PES.

I'm agree with twice.... :D 

FM Graphics could be a little bit better, but you'll never have graphics like FIFA or PES.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Double0Seven said:

I don't think people realise here that graphics are important to a game. Nobody is asking for insanely good graphics, but the fact that the game is looking worse then most mobile games in 2019 is not great. Even with these minimum specs, I've already pointed out that there are many games out there that do better with these minimum specs or even worse. So it's not like lower end PC's will suffer. 

Better graphics will attract new players and doesn't need to affect the people with weaker PC's. Because cmon, the graphics in FM are seriously outdated and could use a facelift. Show any non FM player the graphics and you won't find much people thinking it's good. Better graphics = better immersion. 

Depends what the game is. Graphics are nowhere near as important for a game such as FM as they are for call of duty or some such game. 

Depth and broadness of game play is the most important thing that keeps people playing and coming back. 

That's the problem the Fifa manager series had. It had brilliant graphics for the time but the gameplay was about as deep as a puddle in the Sahara Desert. 

But I'm old and the first management game I ever played was International football manager on the ZX Spectrum where none moving stick men had lines appear from their feet towards an empty goal! 

I'm genuinely looking forward to FM20, the new features look like they'll add even more depth to long-term saves which is great IMO. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Akasha said:

You can say that FM graphics can be better these days, but many people (me first) don't care about FM graphics.

In my opinion 3D ME like actually is enough. For some pepole the gameplay is above all how you creates your tactic and how you're manage your team.

And for some people, if player wants better graphics they have to play FIFA or PES.

I'm agree with twice.... :D 

FM Graphics could be a little bit better, but you'll never have graphics like FIFA or PES.

 

 

 

And many people do care about FM graphics as it improves immersion and attracts newer players. 

Of course the gameplay is more important, but graphics are also part of the game. 

6 minutes ago, Akasha said:

And for some people, if player wants better graphics they have to play FIFA or PES.

But those arent mangement games? You can want better graphics and still play FM.

6 minutes ago, Akasha said:

FM Graphics could be a little bit better, but you'll never have graphics like FIFA or PES.

I dont think anyone asks for that, but we can ask for better graphics than what we have right now surely? As said, no one loses on anything with better graphics. Its only a win so I dont understand people defending the FM graphics. As mentioned before, many older games with similar min specs produce better graphics so is it crazy to expect a new game in almost 2020 to have better graphics? 

Edited by Double0Seven

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2 minutes ago, Akasha said:

You can say that FM graphics can be better these days, but many people (me first) don't care about FM graphics.

In my opinion 3D ME like actually is enough. For some pepole the gameplay is above all how you creates your tactic and how you're manage your team.

And for some people, if player wants better graphics they have to play FIFA or PES.

I'm agree with twice.... :D 

FM Graphics could be a little bit better, but you'll never have graphics like FIFA or PES.

 

 

 

I don’t really care about graphics either. But they could be better, and as long as it’s not impacting any other performance why shouldn’t they be. 
Also, nobody here is asking for FIFA/PES level graphics, but there is, let’s be honest, a gulf in quality between them and FM. So there is still plenty of scope for improvement even without trying to reach that level of quality.

For what it’s worth, it does sound like they’ve had some focus on graphics anyway with the new player models and introduction of dynamic pitches which should bring with it the return of some of the additional textures, muddy patches etc.

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1 minute ago, kiwityke1983 said:

Depth and broadness of game play is the most important thing that keeps people playing and coming back. 

I completely agree with this, but graphics will also help attract a newer playerbase these days. It wont be the main selling point, but its a good cherry on top. Like someone else said, playing a final of the champions league looks no different than a useless cup match sometimes. Improving this will only help immersion for those that play 3d. Which are many. 

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I'm questioning whether even muich improved graphics  would attract newer Players -- at least when compared to the added investment (e.g. additional staff). And that's not defending SI. As argued Prior, comparably complex, "dry" and spread-sheet and numbers based Management games are a niche, mainly PC; and Always will be. It's remarkable how much of an audience the game attracts already based on that -- which is largely down to that it's simulating Football, as opposed to, say Baseball (OOTP). The paradigm shift to fully 3D as such has also already happened, back then to much attention. Better 3d is "just" an Iteration upon that.

That's not arguing that improved graphics wouldn't attract new customers. However, the core experience isn't but the match day experience. The core experience is the whole package. And it doesn't hold a particularly Broad Appeal, at least when compared to more Mainstream Football games, which is why Electronic Arts et all have long since stopped investing. They wanted to can their series actually back in 2005 already, btw. It was only "allowed" to live some longer under the EA Partners label, and kept on being developed by a new-formed German Studio on its own for a couple additional years upon the specific request of that studio. As a rather crude opinion piece exemplifying this at the more extreme end -- Maybe somebody remembers IGN.com's initial FM 2009 review. :D 

As said, imo the best bet for anybody Looking for a sudden significant jump is for SI to work more closely with sister Studios such as Creative Assembly, as a) they have plenty 3d staff and b) they wouldn't be a permanent on the payroll. I don't think anybody would object to improvements here, in particular if they don't come at the cost of neglecting the game's Long-term core values (we're Talking a series that hadn't implemented any match day gfx, 2d, 3d or otherwise until way into the 2000s!!!).

 

Edited by Svenc

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No issues with debate, but this is descending into petty bickering so please stick to the topic and move on.

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Two questions for mods:

1) After last year's debacle involving FM 2019 being unplayable on Mac for MONTHS, what standards at SI have changed to ensure that the game will work on iOS for more than 8 months out of the next calendar year?

2) Seeing as it is kind of one of the main facets of the game, and that it's been routinely ignored over the past years, what has changed to ensure that the player doesn't continually receive inadequate offers from other clubs (especially when the same teams give better offers to other AI teams)? Have any changes been made to the transfer logic whatsoever?

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Honestly speaking I don't think the graphics are much of the issue. If you had sleaker animations and ones seen in mobile games as showed by @MBarbaric then it'd be enough. So actually heading the ball and having a reaction with hands and feet to look realistic or even when passing or shooting- not being a thunderbolt or some sick swerve but one that looks like it's real.The graphics can be massively improved for sure but if the animations were right would it really matter about the graphic of the body and faces? 

This is why people compare to 17 (for the ones who argued yesterday), the animation was sleeker than it is in 19 (be that opinion or fact) and much more enjoyable to watch. I do think the running is somewhat better though in 19 cause in 17 there was a high chance your players would run into another. Graphics is a big part of the modern game so it's due an upgrade but is it really needed YET when other areas need improving first? 

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20 minutes ago, BigV said:

Honestly speaking I don't think the graphics are much of the issue. If you had sleaker animations and ones seen in mobile games as showed by @MBarbaric then it'd be enough. So actually heading the ball and having a reaction with hands and feet to look realistic or even when passing or shooting- not being a thunderbolt or some sick swerve but one that looks like it's real.The graphics can be massively improved for sure but if the animations were right would it really matter about the graphic of the body and faces? 

This is why people compare to 17 (for the ones who argued yesterday), the animation was sleeker than it is in 19 (be that opinion or fact) and much more enjoyable to watch. I do think the running is somewhat better though in 19 cause in 17 there was a high chance your players would run into another. Graphics is a big part of the modern game so it's due an upgrade but is it really needed YET when other areas need improving first? 

I believe an upgrade in the graphics is needed ASAP  It shouldn't hamper improvements in other areas as I believe the graphics are done by an outside studio called Creative Assembly

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4 minutes ago, BigV said:

Honestly speaking I don't think the graphics are much of the issue. If you had sleaker animations and ones seen in mobile games as showed by @MBarbaric then it'd be enough. So actually heading the ball and having a reaction with hands and feet to look realistic or even when passing or shooting- not being a thunderbolt or some sick swerve but one that looks like it's real.The graphics can be massively improved for sure but if the animations were right would it really matter about the graphic of the body and faces? 

This is why people compare to 17 (for the ones who argued yesterday), the animation was sleeker than it is in 19 (be that opinion or fact) and much more enjoyable to watch. I do think the running is somewhat better though in 19 cause in 17 there was a high chance your players would run into another. Graphics is a big part of the modern game so it's due an upgrade but is it really needed YET when other areas need improving first? 

I agree that animations are the key. We need to see:

  • Players using their strength to hold off opponents before knocking down or passing to a teammate - (target men are next to useless right now)
  • Players attempting to dribble round the goalkeeper - (until this exists, it will remain a gaping hole in realism)
  • Players opening their body to execute precise side foot finishes - (players shoot, cross and pass with their weak foot far too often in FM19)
  • Players receiving the ball on the half-turn to spin away from opponents - (players take far too long to turn in FM19)
  • Players taking the ball fluidly in their stride - (too many passes are to feet, and deaden the pace of attacks)
  • Goalkeepers that actually move across the goal to protect the near post / narrow angles
  • Goalkeepers diving at the feet of forwards
  • Goalkeepers quickly reacting to second balls / rebounds
  • A broader range of tackling styles whilst staying on feet - (ridiculous numbers of slide tackles plagued this year's ME)

 

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1 hour ago, cwc1 said:

Two questions for mods:

1) After last year's debacle involving FM 2019 being unplayable on Mac for MONTHS, what standards at SI have changed to ensure that the game will work on iOS for more than 8 months out of the next calendar year?

I'm afraid that's not information the mods or anyone else has.  Perhaps one for @Neil Brock.

1 hour ago, cwc1 said:

Have any changes been made to the transfer logic whatsoever?

Unless it gets a mention over the next couple of weeks as part of FM20's reveal, we'll have to wait until the Beta is released to find out.

(I appreciate you're not getting answers there, but we honestly don't have the information to give out).

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1 hour ago, rdbayly said:

I agree that animations are the key. We need to see:

  • Players using their strength to hold off opponents before knocking down or passing to a teammate - (target men are next to useless right now)
  • Players attempting to dribble round the goalkeeper - (until this exists, it will remain a gaping hole in realism)
  • Players opening their body to execute precise side foot finishes - (players shoot, cross and pass with their weak foot far too often in FM19)
  • Players receiving the ball on the half-turn to spin away from opponents - (players take far too long to turn in FM19)
  • Players taking the ball fluidly in their stride - (too many passes are to feet, and deaden the pace of attacks)
  • Goalkeepers that actually move across the goal to protect the near post / narrow angles
  • Goalkeepers diving at the feet of forwards
  • Goalkeepers quickly reacting to second balls / rebounds
  • A broader range of tackling styles whilst staying on feet - (ridiculous numbers of slide tackles plagued this year's ME)

 

I think that sums it up beautifully, if those things were in the game people would like it for sure. 

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12 minutes ago, BigV said:

I think that sums it up beautifully, if those things were in the game people would like it for sure. 

Yeah and I'd argue these are things SI have on their radar already. Some of these are a mix of ME and also match physics. 

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2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Yeah and I'd argue these are things SI have on their radar already. Some of these are a mix of ME and also match physics. 

Thought so, it'd take some time fitting them in aswell making sure it doesn't tweak anything else in the ME. I do remember skills being a thing back in the day and you'd get like 20 stepovers from players with 16 technique :lol:

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There's a stream on tomorrow on twitch, fm has just tweeted. For those who are wanting to know how the ME is like I guess you can see it first hand tomorrow

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3 horas atrás, rdbayly disse:

I agree that animations are the key. We need to see:

  • Players using their strength to hold off opponents before knocking down or passing to a teammate - (target men are next to useless right now)
  • Players attempting to dribble round the goalkeeper - (until this exists, it will remain a gaping hole in realism)
  • Players opening their body to execute precise side foot finishes - (players shoot, cross and pass with their weak foot far too often in FM19)
  • Players receiving the ball on the half-turn to spin away from opponents - (players take far too long to turn in FM19)
  • Players taking the ball fluidly in their stride - (too many passes are to feet, and deaden the pace of attacks)
  • Goalkeepers that actually move across the goal to protect the near post / narrow angles
  • Goalkeepers diving at the feet of forwards
  • Goalkeepers quickly reacting to second balls / rebounds
  • A broader range of tackling styles whilst staying on feet - (ridiculous numbers of slide tackles plagued this year's ME)

 

I second your post mate.

Better graphics per se mean "nothing" to me, but more and better animations yes, would drastically improve our match experience.

Now maybe I'm wrong on this, but it's worrying me a bit the lack of news in this matter when we are so close to the beta and the release date itself. Again if I'm not wrong, I think that last year it was announced some 500 new animations for FM19 or something like that.

I just hope FM20 brings improvements in this matter. And ME ofcourse. If you can release some news, even if some generic, overview scenario, it would be awesome guys.

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1 hora atrás, SazoJohnno disse:

 

Yes!!

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8 hours ago, MBarbaric said:
If all opinions are equal, I urge you to go to the nearest hospital and provide your opinion on treatment

Surely this applies to all of us too right? SI must surely be in the best position to decide whether the graphics in their game are good enough. How are any of us truly qualified to argue with them? 

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9 minutes ago, DementedHammer said:

Surely this applies to all of us too right? SI must surely be in the best position to decide whether the graphics in their game are good enough. How are any of us truly qualified to argue with them? 

Well you are correct, our opinion counts for maybe 0.0001% of the playerbase and even then its worth most likely nothing as we arent experts.

But do you need to be a cook to criticise the food? The only other question is whether you can actually improve on the food, but saying how the food tastes isnt just for professional cooks.

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Agreed. (And I'm not arguing about whether the graphics could be better.) All I'm saying is that SI are the only ones with the information at hand to really determine whether increasing the quality of the graphics would significantly add to their bottom line. 

My personal opinion: if there was a more direct correlation between graphics quality and their bottom line, I'd expect that the graphics would be far superior, as they'd throw a lot more cash at it. 

Personally, if they had to choose a priority, I'd much prefer they threw that cash at the match engine rather than the graphics engine (but that's just my own two cents worth.) 

In any case, we'll all see both the graphics and match engines tomorrow and we can all make up our own minds about whether it meets our individual requirements - I for one am looking forward to it. 

Edited by DementedHammer

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2 minutes ago, Akasha said:

@Double0Seven you seem like a good cook. You may be able to give some culinary advice here. :) 

So far these years I've actually never been there. Have always gave my opinion in the yearly feedback threads in general section for the versions I played. 

As a programmer I know how hard it is to deal with users wanting certain features. "We want better graphics" or "we want better running animations" says nothing useful. 

But perhaps this year I should try diving in there with a bit more elaborate suggestions. 

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44 minutos atrás, Double0Seven disse:

As a programmer I know how hard it is to deal with users wanting certain features. "We want better graphics" or "we want better running animations" says nothing useful. 

What would be useful in your point of view?

I understand (and I'm quite familiar) with programmers, and that's also why I know that as soon as serious competition may show up and users wanting certain features or else "you'll never get my money again", suddenly the development accelerates quite drastically. I saw it happen, and I understand it.

So yeah... those who pay, say what they want. They have that right. Might not express it in the best way, but if they pay you, they have that right. And you have the right to deny it and loose the customers, tho let's be honest, it's not usual for that to happen.

Edited by 99

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Really happy to hear about the 'new'/old feature of letting managers have photographs for their profile picture rather than the frankenregen effigie that we have had to endure for the last 3 years.

Why did we have do endure it? Somebody please explain...

About bloody time we can bring our normal faces back to our management profiles. 

It was an an absolute joke...

Edited by Bothan Spy

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3 hours ago, TheInvisibleMan said:

Has anything been said about improvements to VAR in FM20?

Wasn't much variety with it in FM19.

They want to sort it out in real life first, complete shambles !!!

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This is what we really want to vote for on kingpin Miles Twitter posts-

Match Engine videos-100%

Transfer AI-100%

Better Training-100%

Other pointless rubbish-0%

 

 

 

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RE: The Graphics and the match engine.

I think graphics are vitally important. Think about it, you are watching the matches for a significant portion of those 1000 hour runs.  I think the current graphics are tolerable and thats because i put more emphasis on the ME for my enjoyment. I understand that they want to reach as many consumers as possible and i for one do appreciate that as i still play on a 2016 MacBook Air. But there comes a time when to move forward you need to my sacrifices. I personally really enjoy a passing move work out, or a through ball work so imagine if it looked more like games from 2009 instead of 1999. I say 2009 instead of 2019 because i understand that there is much greater processing load due to the simulation nature.

This game looks very dated and that does have an effect. It limits a new generation of players getting into the game because they have grown up with games that look incredible and this game looks very much from the earlier 2000s. I mean it looks worse than Fifa 2004, a game 15 years ago. 

I would love to see better graphics to make me see and feel the difference of playing against Ipswich in a FA cup 3rd round and playing against Real Madrid in the champion league final . I would like to see more fluid and varied movement of players. It would increase the enjoyment and replay-ability because i wouldn't notice the patterns as much. When i watch now i can kinda predict the passage f play because there is such limited player animations that you just pick it up.

I have already mentioned before that the ME needs to be rebuilt because the system is from 2009 with 2009 ideas and frameworks and theres only so much you can do with updating and tweaking and bolting on other systems before it runs less efficient and doesn't suit the needs of today. 

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1 minute ago, aj6658 said:

I have already mentioned before that the ME needs to be rebuilt because the system is from 2009 with 2009 ideas and frameworks and theres only so much you can do with updating and tweaking and bolting on other systems before it runs less efficient and doesn't suit the needs of today. 

Agreed with the graphics part, but this is not needed. We dont know how the internals of the match engine work. Rebuilding something from the ground up isnt always the solution. As a programmer I can tell you that throwing something out of the window and starting again isnt always the solution. Im sure elements of the match engine are refactored and rewritten from time to time. Unless its complete spaghetti code, tweaking and adding new stuff doesnt need a complete rebuilding.

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If those sacrifices are too big a chunk of your player base they won't happen. This conversation isn't new, to the point where Neil has spoken about the necessity of balancing pushing specs between the fact that so many FM players like to play on machines slightly more powerful than toasters (thanks to steam, SI know where their player base sits on the average gamer scale).

Whatever anyone's opinions are on this, this is a point that has to be taken onboard

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Just now, Double0Seven said:

Agreed with the graphics part, but this is not needed. We dont know how the internals of the match engine work. Rebuilding something from the ground up isnt always the solution. As a programmer I can tell you that throwing something out of the window and starting again isnt always the solution. Im sure elements of the match engine are refactored and rewritten from time to time. Unless its complete spaghetti code, tweaking and adding new stuff doesnt need a complete rebuilding.

Im not saying start from scratch, i know thats very expensive, time consuming and not efficient. No game developer completely rebuilds an engine (E.g Unreal 3 -to 4)

What i mean that the ME is based on ideas and a framework that was set in 2009. The game has changed (Real life game i mean) so i think they need to go back to the drawing board and think what do we think are the key ideas that are prevalent in the modern game. E.g. passing patterns or pressing trigger and how do we achieve those goals. Parts of the engine that does, keep and update. Theres a reason why issues that people have had for years has been persistent. 

Im sure the engine is rewritten countless times but the same issues linger because you're rewriting code and bolting on new systems that based on the same basic engine. Its no longer holistic which causes inefficiencies and issues.

I think of it like modern Microsoft. They have been slowly removing the barriers to divisions and teams. It makes sense. If one team is making software and one team is making hardware they're working together but they lack synergy. But if it was one team making the hardware and the software, you get  much better product. Apple is the same.

 

All im saying is that the ME needs to be set on flexible foundations for the next 10 years.

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