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39 minutes ago, prot651 said:

The cost of the game is great if it's your first buy . But when you have bought the game since 2006 and see features disappear then come back as new features or say things like it will be the best graphics ever but they have become worse since FM17 ( who had the best match day experience ) you can understand why people become sceptical 

I would have to agree with this unfortunately

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50 minutes ago, prot651 said:

The cost of the game is great if it's your first buy . But when you have bought the game since 2006 and see features disappear then come back as new features or say things like it will be the best graphics ever but they have become worse since FM17 ( who had the best match day experience ) you can understand why people become sceptical 

The graphics have "become worse since FM17" in your opinion. That last bit is always important.

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1 hour ago, prot651 said:

The cost of the game is great if it's your first buy . But when you have bought the game since 2006 and see features disappear then come back as new features or say things like it will be the best graphics ever but they have become worse since FM17 ( who had the best match day experience ) you can understand why people become sceptical 

Same, but buying and playing since 1999....

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25 minutes ago, CFuller said:

The graphics have "become worse since FM17" in your opinion. That last bit is always important.

Unfortunately the fact is that it is also the opinion of a significant number of other people, and not all participate in these forums.  I respect everone is entitled to their own opinion but I you really believe that the graphics have improved since FM17 then I dont understand your perception of graphics

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Just now, Tony Wright 747 said:

Unfortunately the fact is that it is also the opinion of a significant number of other people, and not all participate in these forums.  I respect everone is entitled to their own opinion but I you really believe that the graphics have improved since FM17 then I dont understand your perception of graphics

If we're talking just about stadium graphics, you have a point. I do have issues with those picnic tables and those large generic football sculpture things (seriously, what are they meant to be?) at big grounds.

Otherwise, though, I feel that the match graphics have improved over the last couple of years, certainly with regards to player animations.

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4 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

Unfortunately the fact is that it is also the opinion of a significant number of other people, and not all participate in these forums.  I respect everone is entitled to their own opinion but I you really believe that the graphics have improved since FM17 then I dont understand your perception of graphics

What significant number of people? There's actually no number for this so please stop stating this as a fact. 

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This barbecue tables look awful even at smaller stadiums. Seriously where we can see that kind of look in the real world?????

Edited by armbi

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8 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

What significant number of people? There's actually no number for this so please stop stating this as a fact. 

It depends what you definition of significant is, I didn't quote any specific number, but you only have to read some of the threads on these forums and even more so on other forums and also in my own discussions with other FM players to come to conclusion that whilst there is no proof that It would be a majority there is enough to make that number significant

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14 minutes ago, CFuller said:

If we're talking just about stadium graphics, you have a point. I do have issues with those picnic tables and those large generic football sculpture things (seriously, what are they meant to be?) at big grounds.

Otherwise, though, I feel that the match graphics have improved over the last couple of years, certainly with regards to player animations.

I'd get rid of the hot dog carts etc. But I'm more concerned with the match animations. They've improved but would be good to add more still, especially around dribbling. 

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2 minutes ago, armbi said:

This barbecue tables look awful even at smaller stadiums. Seriously where we can see that kind of look in the real world?????

One of the grounds in the MLS has this I believe, but certainly in the minority

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1 minute ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

It depends what you definition of significant is, I didn't quote any specific number, but you only have to read some of the threads on these forums and even more so on other forums and also in my own discussions with other FM players to come to conclusion that whilst there is no proof that It would be a majority there is enough to make that number significant

But again you'd have to know rough numbers, which you don't have. So it's not significant no matter how loosely you try to use the definition. 1.9m bought the game, so your numbers would have to be pretty high. 

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2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

But again you'd have to know rough numbers, which you don't have. So it's not significant no matter how loosely you try to use the definition. 1.9m bought the game, so your numbers would have to be pretty high. 

I would be very interested to know how many of that 1.9 believe that the graphics are better than in FM 17, but unless you contacted every one who bought it and that would be impossble, even if you ran a poll that would be only members on these forums.  Also a significant and yes I use that word again play in 2D so dont care about graphics anyway

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3 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

I would be very interested to know how many of that 1.9 believe that the graphics are better than in FM 17, but unless you contacted every one who bought it and that would be impossble, even if you ran a poll that would be only members on these forums.  Also a significant and yes I use that word again play in 2D so dont care about graphics anyway

No one knows, which is why saying significant doesn’t work either way. Even on this forum. It doesn’t reinforce anyone’s opinion, especially when said word doesn’t have any basis

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Was there not a new graphics engine introduced in FM18 that gives them the opportunity to vastly improve on what was done before? I'm sure I read the graphics engine used in 17 had reached the end of its shelf life. Perhaps not

Edited by Dagenham_Dave

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Although I do feel the pitch textures on FM19 were pretty basic compared to some of the lovely stuff you saw on 17, hopefully this has been improved. 

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22 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Although I do feel the pitch textures on FM19 were pretty basic compared to some of the lovely stuff you saw on 17, hopefully this has been improved. 

I would agree with that, but it is not just the pitch textures, it's things like the lighting and the crowd look like something out of a cartoon in my opinion

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12 minutes ago, GOODNAME said:

Any news about when we will get anything about the ME and the 3D?

Not yet, a month is left till release so expect it within the next 2-3 weeks but don't quote me on that. They're probably ironing out a few things and working on it for the 1st patch for official release (maybe to try to avoid what happened last year with crossing become too good before the official and then lowering it to find it hits defenders alot more- leading to other issues). 

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3 hours ago, prot651 said:

The cost of the game is great if it's your first buy . But when you have bought the game since 2006 and see features disappear then come back as new features or say things like it will be the best graphics ever but they have become worse since FM17 ( who had the best match day experience ) you can understand why people become sceptical 

I just don't think that argument stands up. You could go to the cinema twice for the price of the game and get 4-5 hrs of entertainment for the same money. Or, you could go to an actual football match and get 90 minutes.......I understand the frustration around reintroduced features, features that aren't actually features and outdated graphics but almost anyone that buys it will get hundreds if not thousands of hours of entertainment from their forty quid.

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1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

But again you'd have to know rough numbers, which you don't have. So it's not significant no matter how loosely you try to use the definition. 1.9m bought the game, so your numbers would have to be pretty high. 

You actually dont need that much people to draw a conclusion towards "significant". For example, if FM 19 has 1.9m buyers, you only need 385 people for a 95% confidence level for a 5% margin of error.

So if Tony knows 385 people who are an average FM player then he could draw these conclusions. Thats not high. Just like how they poll elections, you dont need to know that much. 

1 hour ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

I would be very interested to know how many of that 1.9 believe that the graphics are better than in FM 17, but unless you contacted every one who bought it and that would be impossble, even if you ran a poll that would be only members on these forums.  Also a significant and yes I use that word again play in 2D so dont care about graphics anyway

A much more active community is the reddit community. You could try opening a survey there if the mods allow it. 

Edited by Double0Seven

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16 minutes ago, janrzm said:

I just don't think that argument stands up. You could go to the cinema twice for the price of the game and get 4-5 hrs of entertainment for the same money. Or, you could go to an actual football match and get 90 minutes.......I understand the frustration around reintroduced features, features that aren't actually features and outdated graphics but almost anyone that buys it will get hundreds if not thousands of hours of entertainment from their forty quid.

I can still get everything that you say from my FM16 save

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17 minutes ago, Double0Seven said:

You actually dont need that much people to draw a conclusion towards "significant". For example, if FM 19 has 1.9m buyers, you only need 385 people for a 95% confidence level for a 5% margin of error.

So if Tony knows 385 people who are an average FM player then he could draw these conclusions. Thats not high. Just like how they poll elections, you dont need to know that much. 

A much more active community is the reddit community. You could try opening a survey there if the mods allow it. 

Yes, but my point is we don't have ANY numbers either to even start saying it. I'm not keen on people using significant without basis to push their opinion above others, it removes discourse, see it a little too much on this forum, especially when the point on debate is entirely subjective 

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25 minutes ago, BigV said:

Not yet, a month is left till release so expect it within the next 2-3 weeks but don't quote me on that. They're probably ironing out a few things and working on it for the 1st patch for official release (maybe to try to avoid what happened last year with crossing become too good before the official and then lowering it to find it hits defenders alot more- leading to other issues). 

Would be good to see it just before beta release, but personally more concerned with them having the time to get things right rather than get things out quickly 

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1 minute ago, MBarbaric said:

I really don't understand why people have the need to defend the graphics in the FM. Considering the year we live in, it is plainly outdated. Mobile games have better graphics on average. 

That being said, FM doesn't really need spectacular graphics comparable to any AAA game. it just isn't that kind of the game. I think people are more bothered with sheer discrepancy between current state of graphical representation in the game, and graphics standards for the year we live in. It is simply out of place in 2020. 

It's not about attacking or defending, it's about people having different opinions and people being allowed to have their various subjective but constructive opinions. For some it's the pinnacle, for others it's irrelevant and then you have people along the spectrum between. 

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I'm not particularly of a gfx guy, at least not as far as FM is concerned. However, this is likely also a cost-benefit calculation. You could increase in Team size and ramp up the visuals massively. At the same time though, the Question lingers whether that would attract more customers to Warrant, and rather pay, the extra staff. I personally don't think it would, as "Spreadsheet" based Management games are a niche and Always will be, and there's only so much room left to grow this Thing. Therefore, it'll be Always About iteral smallish improvements, as has happened so far.

A more realistic Option may actually be SI working ever more closely together with sister Studio Creative Assembly (of Total War fame -- and the fabulously underappreciated Alien:Isolation of which most of the staff has been laid off already, sigh sigh sigh). Those guys are Pretty experienced in 3D. AFAIR, the very first incarnation of any 3d visuals as to FM ever saw SI taking mo-cap animations from a then rather oldish Sega Virtua Striker game. And that was by the turn of the last decade -- more than a decade after which 3d accelerated graphic hardware had become a Standard shipping with PCs.

Edited by Svenc

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1 hour ago, Double0Seven said:

You actually dont need that much people to draw a conclusion towards "significant". For example, if FM 19 has 1.9m buyers, you only need 385 people for a 95% confidence level for a 5% margin of error.

So if Tony knows 385 people who are an average FM player then he could draw these conclusions.

Whoa there. That last statement is only true if Tony's 385 friends are of a wide enough range of individuals to represent the "average" FM player. Including age, gender, location and many many other demographics. If all of Tony's friends are of a similar age located around his location, they are certainly not able to represent the average FM players. That 95% confidence must include the correct demographics in the pool of people.

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1 hour ago, MBarbaric said:

I really don't understand why people have the need to defend the graphics in the FM. Considering the year we live in, it is plainly outdated. Mobile games have better graphics on average. 

That being said, FM doesn't really need spectacular graphics comparable to any AAA game. it just isn't that kind of the game. I think people are more bothered with sheer discrepancy between current state of graphical representation in the game, and graphics standards for the year we live in. It is simply out of place in 2020. 

I kind of think it's mostly down to expectations. Quite a lot of the users in here have played FM since the dinosaurs walked the earth. I started with text commentary as the only option so everything else were simply in my imagination. I loved it when 2D came around, but I'm not overly bothered by 3D. It's nice to see what happens, but for me the current graphics are more than suitable enough to enjoy the match. I'd rather see further improvements in player AI inside the match engine and that those things are the focal point rather than on the graphical quality. Others see the graphics as a more vital point for their enjoyment, and that's fine. We can have different opinions and still be able to discuss the game, right?

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29 minutes ago, XaW said:

Whoa there. That last statement is only true if Tony's 385 friends are of a wide enough range of individuals to represent the "average" FM player. Including age, gender, location and many many other demographics. If all of Tony's friends are of a similar age located around his location, they are certainly not able to represent the average FM players. That 95% confidence must include the correct demographics in the pool of people.

Yeah hence why I said "average" as well. I think reaching 1000+ should be easily doable on reddit and this forum combined. 

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21 minutes ago, XaW said:

Whoa there. That last statement is only true if Tony's 385 friends are of a wide enough range of individuals to represent the "average" FM player. Including age, gender, location and many many other demographics. If all of Tony's friends are of a similar age located around his location, they are certainly not able to represent the average FM players. That 95% confidence must include the correct demographics in the pool of people.

Most of my "friends" are far younger than me and from a pretty wide geographical location, but it is not just people I am in contact with but posters on the various forums not just this one to make the numbers "significant" and as I have already said there a a lot of players like yourself who are perfectly happy with 2D, but I would imagine that will diminish over time with younger players buying the game for the first who are used to better graphics in games than the ones in FM at the moment.  My stance has always if it cant be made to a good standard then don't include it in game at all.  In my opinion the stadiums and crowd are very poor and if they cant be done better dont bother to include them

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4 hours ago, CFuller said:

The graphics have "become worse since FM17" in your opinion. That last bit is always important.

I agree it's an opinion, but there are some established facts here too. Stadium art / supporter attire were both superior in terms of realism, and grass textures varied according to the pitch condition. 

All of the above have seen a huge step backwards *

 

*In my opinion ;)

 

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Call we all just agree that everyone has different views and opinions on the graphics, and there's not much point in trying to reinforce your particular stance, because ultimately the opinion that truly holds weight will be that of SI :brock:

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14 minutes ago, Double0Seven said:

Yeah hence why I said "average" as well. I think reaching 1000+ should be easily doable on reddit and this forum combined. 

9 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

Most of my "friends" are far younger than me and from a pretty wide geographical location, but it is not just people I am in contact with but posters on the various forums not just this one to make the numbers "significant" and as I have already said there a a lot of players like yourself who are perfectly happy with 2D, but I would imagine that will diminish over time with younger players buying the game for the first who are used to better graphics in games than the ones in FM at the moment.  My stance has always if it cant be made to a good standard then don't include it in game at all.  In my opinion the stadiums and crowd are very poor and if they cant be done better dont bother to include them

In order for that to matter the selected users would be needed to fit into the demographics of users who buy the game, and from what I've picked up from the statement regarding userbase from Miles on Twitter and from SI here on the board, a significant number of users are not "gamers" in the normal view, but user who more or less ONLY play FM. People like that mostly don't use this forum, or Twitter or Reddit or other online communities. Where I work, I know of about 10 who play FM and only one who have much of an online persona. The others mostly got annoyed when they had to start to use Steam.

5 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Call we all just agree that everyone has different views and opinions on the graphics, and there's not much point in trying to reinforce your particular stance, because ultimately the opinion that truly holds weight will be that of SI :brock:

I can agree to that! :) 

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18 minutes ago, XaW said:

In order for that to matter the selected users would be needed to fit into the demographics of users who buy the game, and from what I've picked up from the statement regarding userbase from Miles on Twitter and from SI here on the board, a significant number of users are not "gamers" in the normal view, but user who more or less ONLY play FM. People like that mostly don't use this forum, or Twitter or Reddit or other online communities. Where I work, I know of about 10 who play FM and only one who have much of an online persona. The others mostly got annoyed when they had to start to use Steam.

I can agree to that! :) 

Exactly this, I have to help around a dozen people in work install their FM graphics on their laptops, one of which is so old it has keys missing and sounds like a jet engine when you boot it up

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shouldn't be far off lollujo has mentioned on his vlog that hes down in London splitting his time between egx and football manager hq for the captcha event, so shouldn't be too long for more info. 

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14 minutes ago, Spedding said:

shouldn't be far off lollujo has mentioned on his vlog that hes down in London splitting his time between egx and football manager hq for the captcha event, so shouldn't be too long for more info. 

Where did you see that, I see he is at egx but see nothing about FM hq

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10 minutes ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

Where did you see that, I see he is at egx but see nothing about FM hq

just an off hand comment in his vlog on the vlog channel seen a few fm youtubers mention there in London this weekend.

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16 hours ago, XaW said:

I kind of think it's mostly down to expectations. Quite a lot of the users in here have played FM since the dinosaurs walked the earth. I started with text commentary as the only option so everything else were simply in my imagination. I loved it when 2D came around, but I'm not overly bothered by 3D. It's nice to see what happens, but for me the current graphics are more than suitable enough to enjoy the match. I'd rather see further improvements in player AI inside the match engine and that those things are the focal point rather than on the graphical quality. Others see the graphics as a more vital point for their enjoyment, and that's fine. We can have different opinions and still be able to discuss the game, right?

Yep, ditto been playing since the game came on floppy disks. Each league a different floppy (Back in the Championship manager days)! I remember being excited when we could have 3 leagues simultaneously. Before that it was 1 league. 

 

I've bought every single version of the game and have never regretted it. The game gets better every year IMO except maybe one or two iterations. For a game that's been released over nearly 3 decades that's frankly amazing. 

 

Give me gameplay and depth over graphics everyday of the week than you very much. 

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4 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said:

 

Give me gameplay and depth over graphics everyday of the week than you very much. 

This

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1 hour ago, kiwityke1983 said:

I remember being excited when we could have 3 leagues simultaneously. Before that it was 1 league. 

You must have been one of the lucky ones that had the required 16mb of RAM then.

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1 hour ago, kiwityke1983 said:

Give me gameplay and depth over graphics everyday of the week than you very much. 

100% this. 

I wouldn't have cared if SI simply stuck to the 2D pitch view. That's more than enough for me. 

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To be fair if graphics are important to any, I've just changed from a 4 year old PC with integrated graphic card to a new gaming PC and the graphics have jumped 'a few annual editions' of FM in terms of quality for me.

I am computer thick, but never realised how much a good PC could make such a difference to the game. 

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I don't think people realise here that graphics are important to a game. Nobody is asking for insanely good graphics, but the fact that the game is looking worse then most mobile games in 2019 is not great. Even with these minimum specs, I've already pointed out that there are many games out there that do better with these minimum specs or even worse. So it's not like lower end PC's will suffer. 

Better graphics will attract new players and doesn't need to affect the people with weaker PC's. Because cmon, the graphics in FM are seriously outdated and could use a facelift. Show any non FM player the graphics and you won't find much people thinking it's good. Better graphics = better immersion. 

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