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teej9

Solutions to horrifically boring football?

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I have hit a rut in my long term save where every single game is a boring one or two highlight (on extended) match that ends 1-0. I typically play a custom gegen press 433 with IFs, but lately have tried every type of attacking formation you can imagine. I am pretty much fine with the results, but dear god has it gotten boring. No players play well for either team, ever. No good looking goals, just a set piece or random error for the ultra spicy 1-0. 

I try to keep attacking TIs to a minimum to let the team play how they want, apparently they want to play like Gary Megsons Bolton. 

I have gone to a possession style tactic, tried a Simeone esc 442, played a diamond, and just cannot get out of this boring nature of the matches. 

What are some of your go to tips for playing some fun to watch football? 

Edited by teej9

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Sexy football is all about combining horizontal and vertical movement. 

Vertical moving players just go up and down, up and down, but can be super effective and defensively resilient. 

But making some players move side to side and having supporting or attacking players rush into the space they leave behind is, in my opinion, more attractive to watch- although you can get caught out defensively if the passes don't come off. 

So roles and duties that move horizontally, are ones that have move into channels, Cuts Inside or roaming PI's hardcoded into the role/ duty. Roles/ duties that move vertically may have things like get further forward, or drop deeper or hold up ball.

The simplest exposition of this I can think of is an inside fwd combined with an attacking full back/ wing back- the former moves inside (dragging opposition players with them and creating space,) the latter moves vertically into the space left behind- but you can create these movements all over the pitch and they're especially satisfying in the middle of the pitch and in the final third. 

If you have a gifted, technical squad, team instructions like short-passing, roam from positions, pass into space combined together can also make for some good highlight reels too.   

Edited to add this: Pressing can be used as an attacking or a defensive strategy. In real life, Pochettino uses pressing to gain a defensive advantage, generally pressing the opposition into submission and limiting their chances. Klopp, on the other hand, uses pressing to gain an attacking advantage, allowing the opposition time and space on the ball in some areas, but ruthlessly pressing them in other areas where turning over possession gives them an instant attacking advantage. In my opinion, Klopp's Liverpool play the more attractive football. perhaps your pressing is stifling the game, reducing space for both opposition players and your team?

 

Edited by Guerin

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On 17/09/2019 at 09:12, teej9 said:

I have hit a rut in my long term save where every single game is a boring one or two highlight (on extended) match that ends 1-0. I typically play a custom gegen press 433 with IFs, but lately have tried every type of attacking formation you can imagine. I am pretty much fine with the results, but dear god has it gotten boring. No players play well for either team, ever. No good looking goals, just a set piece or random error for the ultra spicy 1-0. 

I try to keep attacking TIs to a minimum to let the team play how they want, apparently they want to play like Gary Megsons Bolton. 

I have gone to a possession style tactic, tried a Simeone esc 442, played a diamond, and just cannot get out of this boring nature of the matches. 

What are some of your go to tips for playing some fun to watch football? 

You need to give more info about your tactics and your team because there are a lot of reasons that this might be happening.

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Sure. Here are the two I have been using this season.  Attacking  TIs are added based on what i see from the match. For example I add Look for overlap and mess with the roles and duties if they have parked the bus. Tweak passing range as i look for more possession. etc. I seemingly cannot get the team thinking more positively. I currently have the front players/wide mids pressing more via PIs, but PIs are pretty much basic and default. 

 

Again, leading the PL 29 points in 11 matches, but it is just brutal to watch. 16 scored as a team in 11. 1 from real open play. 12 from set pieces and 3 own goals. It's just so dull. I just had a three match run with zero highlights for either team, in any of the three matches. 

 

442.PNG

4141.PNG

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I'm not perfect with tactics either so don't take anything I say for granted but you say you change your attacking TI's, perhaps you should find some standard TI's and then adjust accordingly because i think that using different attacking TI's every game from the scratch is too much and it might be difficult for your players to reach high familiarity. For your defensive TI's if they park the bus your very high line and the level of your players makes it easy for you to keep them at their own half, but it's easier for them to defend too, because there is not much space to cover. So I think that your matches are boring because you have your opposition in their half but you don't know how to break them down. That's why you get a lot of set pieces and mainly score from them.  As for your roles when i try to break down park the bus I rely a lot on my full backs and i don't think you get a lot of help from them offensively since one is defending and the other is in support, and I would change the poacher too because I don't think that role is good for a high press tactic since he doesn't have space behind the CB's to run.

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1 hour ago, thejay said:

solution?

 

Wait for fm20 

 

fm19 is beyond any hope

Perhaps if you dedicated a small amount of effort to asking for help rather than being unhelpful like this, your impression of FM19 may be different.  At least try reading some of the really useful guides and strategies people have written about this year.

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1 hour ago, thejay said:

solution?

 

Wait for fm20 

 

fm19 is beyond any hope

Ah so this is a thread where you can moan. I will not bother with any input then. I play some beautiful football in FM19.

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12 hours ago, teej9 said:

 I just had a three match run with zero highlights for either team, in any of the three matches. 

Are you only watching Key Highlights or something?

Could well be the opposition are parking the bus & you're doing nothing against it 

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13 hours ago, teej9 said:

Sure. Here are the two I have been using this season.  Attacking  TIs are added based on what i see from the match. For example I add Look for overlap and mess with the roles and duties if they have parked the bus. Tweak passing range as i look for more possession. etc. I seemingly cannot get the team thinking more positively. I currently have the front players/wide mids pressing more via PIs, but PIs are pretty much basic and default. 

 

Again, leading the PL 29 points in 11 matches, but it is just brutal to watch. 16 scored as a team in 11. 1 from real open play. 12 from set pieces and 3 own goals. It's just so dull. I just had a three match run with zero highlights for either team, in any of the three matches. 

 

442.PNG

4141.PNG

I see Alison, VVD and TAA, so I guess you are managing Liverpool, right? If so, I would assume you are already in an advanced season, because only these 3 players are from the current LFC squad?

Anyway, if you are actually managing LFC (or any top team for that matter), then neither of the 2 tactics above makes sense (unless your team is - for some very strange reason - much weaker than the current Liverpool team).

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Looking at the 442, I'm not surprised you don't see anything happening. You have almost 0 penetration. The only player making runs is the IW. Your de fence is too negative to make anything happen. Sure it's defensively solid but if you want something exciting, it means taking risks. The cf on support paired with the attang forward still leaves way too much of a gap in your AM strata. Not saying I'm very good at tactics, but you really need to take more risks. The second one: even with the cm(a) your striker will be completely isolated. Have him on support and he'll actually contribute something to your game. 

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^^ Additionally, that's both WBs on defend. They'll mainly stay back, so None would offer much support and passing angles high up the pitch and around the box. As a top side, you'll face a lot, arguably far too defensive Opposition.

Alternatively, of Course, you could just put everybody on a defend Duty, have them all to be somewhat cautious right in their roles they are meant to play in the Team and coupled with the super cautious opposition you face every week watch the "fireworks".

23l22X4.jpg

4uVxAVO.jpg

At least you're still Winning and scoring from the set piece, after all. ;) 

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1 hour ago, Svenc said:

^^ Additionally, that's both WBs on defend. They'll mainly stay back, so None would offer much support and passing angles high up the pitch and around the box. As a top side, you'll face a lot, arguably far too defensive Opposition.

Alternatively, of Course, you could just put everybody on a defend Duty, have them all to be somewhat cautious right in their roles they are meant to play in the Team and coupled with the super cautious opposition you face every week watch the "fireworks".

23l22X4.jpg

4uVxAVO.jpg

At least you're still Winning and scoring from the set piece, after all. ;) 

I have found my next goal.

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Thanks for the advice here, going to try and just make it a bit more attacking roles wise I reckon. 

4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I see Alison, VVD and TAA, so I guess you are managing Liverpool, right? If so, I would assume you are already in an advanced season, because only these 3 players are from the current LFC squad?

Anyway, if you are actually managing LFC (or any top team for that matter), then neither of the 2 tactics above makes sense (unless your team is - for some very strange reason - much weaker than the current Liverpool team).

Yup, managing Liverpool. Cool story about them not making sense. Why though? Hence the thread being made. 

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24 minutes ago, teej9 said:

Yup, managing Liverpool. Cool story about them not making sense. Why though?

The team (club) does make sense, it's a great one and my favorite btw. What does not make sense is the tactic (i.e. tactics) in relation to the club you are managing. If you managed, say, Burnley (which I respect a lot), then your tactics would make some sense, but the great Liverpool... :herman:I hope you understand what I mean :thup:

Edited by Experienced Defender

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31 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

The team (club) does make sense, it's a great one and my favorite btw. What does not make sense is the tactic (i.e. tactics) in relation to the club you are managing. If you managed, say, Burnley (which I respect a lot), then your tactics would make some sense, but the great Liverpool... :herman:I hope you understand what I mean :thup:

I know that you meant the tactic doesnt make sense for LFC, but why? I get that in the current scheme of things 442 is meh, but realistically what i am trying to do is have a 4141 that plays like a 433 or a 442 playing like a 4222. I guess with a top team just dont worry about the safety as much and go for it. 

 

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So I going to give this a run of games. One change from the screen shot is the DLP is moving to just a DM, dont want the ball getting hung up with him. 

new.thumb.PNG.085542dfd260dcb8acc67faa233139ff.PNG

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1 hour ago, teej9 said:

I guess with a top team just dont worry about the safety as much and go for it

No, I didn't mean that at all. I do worry about the "safety" (defensive solidity) very much, so I am the last one that would tell you to ignore the defensive side. 

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Ok, made the switch to that new more attacking system. Still not really seeing anything at all, 1-0 wins from a set piece, so far, in all three played. 

Could it be an issue that the counter instruction just gets us going too fast? Too fast for anything to happen? I watched about 15 full minutes of the last match, a cup match against a championship side, and nothing happened, i mean nothing. No forwards runs from any player on either team. They were playing a 541 and basically our center mids would win the ball then run and have a cross to no one blocked, both ways. 

Thanks again for any help!

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2 hours ago, teej9 said:

 

new.thumb.PNG.085542dfd260dcb8acc67faa233139ff.PNG

Really, what I've found, is that support duties are the ones that you need to create pretty football. These duties allow for the most movement, and allow for your players to interchange move as a unit in attack and defense. 

 

Looking at the tactic, I'd give you a few pieces of advice -- first, that having a WB on attack and a winger on support aren't a very effective combination, as they will be too close to each other on the pitch, and generally won't carry much of a threat down that side. I don't really like CFs, just from personal experience, as I find the role to be too general without focusing on one facet of the attack. When I do have a support duty up front, I like having attack duties on the wings, as the support duty up top will drag defenders away, leaving gaps for the players on the wings to attack.

 

I'm also not too much of a fan of the DLP on defend, as he's going to be running around like crazy to chase the ball down, and given your fairly attacking roles ahead of him, you will want an anchor man there to hold some stability in the midfield. In addition, you also don't have too many team instructions when your team is in possession. You should establish a set way that you want your team to play, whether it be possession play, or quick counters, but you should tell them what you want them to do. The lack of instructions there, with the expressive instruction, basically means you're telling the players to do whatever they want.

 

 

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3 hours ago, BP900 said:

Really, what I've found, is that support duties are the ones that you need to create pretty football. These duties allow for the most movement, and allow for your players to interchange move as a unit in attack and defense. 

 

Looking at the tactic, I'd give you a few pieces of advice -- first, that having a WB on attack and a winger on support aren't a very effective combination, as they will be too close to each other on the pitch, and generally won't carry much of a threat down that side. I don't really like CFs, just from personal experience, as I find the role to be too general without focusing on one facet of the attack. When I do have a support duty up front, I like having attack duties on the wings, as the support duty up top will drag defenders away, leaving gaps for the players on the wings to attack.

 

I'm also not too much of a fan of the DLP on defend, as he's going to be running around like crazy to chase the ball down, and given your fairly attacking roles ahead of him, you will want an anchor man there to hold some stability in the midfield. In addition, you also don't have too many team instructions when your team is in possession. You should establish a set way that you want your team to play, whether it be possession play, or quick counters, but you should tell them what you want them to do. The lack of instructions there, with the expressive instruction, basically means you're telling the players to do whatever they want.

 

Yeah, I had swapped the DLP for a DM, then an AM prior to even using it. Also swapped to an AF up top, although that does change from time to time. 

Based on the fact that that both my primary MRs are two footed, I switched them to IWs to try and get some variance for the WB on the right. 

Playing better, scoring a bit more. As for the TIs I do want the players to do whatever they want in the framework of the roles and duties set out. I knocked the counter instrucition off, i felt like it just made us get going way way too fast, and the team could never catch up with our own counter if that makes sense. With that, I also shortened the passing one tick, to just reinforce the idea of getting, then establishing possession. 

Anywho, the work continues.

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So with those adjustments, we are less boring. games seem at least a bit more stretched and a bit interesting to watch. Thanks everybody, much appreciated! 

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12 hours ago, teej9 said:

So I going to give this a run of games. One change from the screen shot is the DLP is moving to just a DM, dont want the ball getting hung up with him. 

new.thumb.PNG.085542dfd260dcb8acc67faa233139ff.PNG

Can that Bruun fella be moved up a strata for a bit more threat?

I'm trying to avoid tactical "extremes" Higher DL/ Higher LOE/ Extremely Urgent, if you're playing against underdogs you're going to pen them into their box, yeah it'll break them down eventually but it won't be pretty

I did that that for a good 3 or 4 seasons & it gets boring, try dialling them back & adding them during a match if you feel the need 

You might need to keep an eye on that right hand side, WB(A) MEZ(A) & W(S) can open you up 

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6 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Can that Bruun fella be moved up a strata for a bit more threat?

I'm trying to avoid tactical "extremes" Higher DL/ Higher LOE/ Extremely Urgent, if you're playing against underdogs you're going to pen them into their box, yeah it'll break them down eventually but it won't be pretty

I did that that for a good 3 or 4 seasons & it gets boring, try dialling them back & adding them during a match if you feel the need 

You might need to keep an eye on that right hand side, WB(A) MEZ(A) & W(S) can open you up 

For some reason I have gotten better play out of the two MRs i have from the deeper strata. They do get pushed forward occasionally. The LOE and D-Line I like to keep High, occasionally much higher, but thats match to match. 

I have been doing a similar thing with the pressing, it changes as needed. 

On the right we have stayed pretty stable, the Anchor Man limits the threat. Its also a risk I am willing to take to find some excitement

 

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I kind if give up, after 5-6 midly interesting matches, we have now gone fourteen with scoring (Haven't conceded either!) Have not seen a single highlight other than VAR checks in four matches. There also has not been a single half chance or clear cut chance for either me or the AI in that span. Wackiness. Is anyone seeing any massive issues with the roles and duties? You'd think that world class players, playing with an attacking mentality would, be able to attack. Is it a case of needing to micro manage the PIs to an extent that i just need pause every 10-15 seconds and adjust them? 

Played two more, yeah I am done, just no fun to be had. Two more nil-nil draws. Currently through 27 EPL matches we have scored 11 goals, this is with a team full of world class players mind you. My main striker is currently on a 39 hour scoreless streak.  

Back to an older version I head, thanks for the help though folks! 

Edited by teej9

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Yeah, I can see some issues. Your inside fwd and your BBM are attacking the same space. Your RWs and RWBa are attacking the same space, your Mez attack and your RWs and your RWBa are attacking the same space. Basically, all your players are just running into each other on the pitch. I'm also not a big fan of assymetric shapes. The only part I like in this formation is the CFs + IFa + LWBs combination--because it is the only part of your formation where the players are creating space for each other to move into but I'd personally have the CF on attack.  

So keep those three players the same. Get rid of all the TI's for now and just focus on the rest of the roles and duties that won't have players running into the same spaces starting with the LCM and moving from left to right. 

HMU if you want more explanation.

 

fm.thumb.png.9b1e19b7ce556ca267e15ff49a6f58a4.png

Edited by Guerin

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43 minutes ago, Guerin said:

Yeah, I can see some issues. Your inside fwd and your BBM are attacking the same space. Your RWs and RWBa are attacking the same space, your Mez attack and your RWs and your RWBa are attacking the same space. Basically, all your players are just running into each other on the pitch. I'm also not a big fan of assymetric shapes. The only part I like in this formation is the CFs + IFa + LWBs combination--because it is the only part of your formation where the players are creating space for each other to move into but I'd personally have the CF on attack.  

So keep those three players the same. Get rid of all the TI's for now and just focus on the rest of the roles and duties that won't have players running into the same spaces starting with the LCM and moving from left to right. 

HMU if you want more explanation.

 

fm.thumb.png.9b1e19b7ce556ca267e15ff49a6f58a4.png

I'm not sure if it's true. The B2B will often find himself behind the more attacking IF. The Mezalla can work with a winger lol. The wingback may run into the same space as the winger but if the winger has PPM Move into Channels they can work together.

You'd also have a CF on attack, why? How is a CF-A more effective (when he's even further forward) than CF-S at space creation?

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I'm not saying it can't- for either the mez + winger or supporting striker. I personally like the link up of an attacking inside fwd with an attacking centre fwd as it also creates space for the midfield to run into. These are basically the two spots where I can see an issue- I drew some crude lines. But essentially three players moving into the same space in two areas of the pitch is problematic, for me. 

EDIT: I can see these three into one space movements happening all over the pitch. 

fm2.png

Edited by Guerin

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27 minutes ago, Armistice said:

You'd also have a CF on attack, why? How is a CF-A more effective (when he's even further forward) than CF-S at space creation?

1. By pushing the opposition backline deeper creating more space for everyone behind him

2. by moving from side to side or into the channels.

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1 hour ago, Guerin said:

1. By pushing the opposition backline deeper creating more space for everyone behind him

2. by moving from side to side or into the channels.

I see it differently when looking at it - he has two roles and duties who will attack space, so they need someone to create it for them. Does a CF-A create space for an attacking inside forward and an attacking Mezalla in the right areas? I don’t think he does, like you said the CF-A will push the defensive line, will try to feed on the supply and score goals himself.

Let’s say he does what you said - create space for everyone behind him - but the question is, does a Mezalla or IF-A need space behind the striker or infront of him? Hope you get my drift.

But I am not saying your suggestion couldn’t work - in fact it could work better in some games. A CF is a very dynamic role due to hardcoded PIs and he needs a capable player to fill the high demanding requirements.

Edited by Armistice

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Yeah I think there's a lot of different ways to attack and generally I do look for my striker to be my main goal scorer so that obviously does influence my opinion and you're right about the BBM moving behind the inside fwdA. In fact, everything you've said is right.

I just think the set up here is overkill with a lot of places where multiple players are moving to similar spaces, compounded really by a high defensive line and pressing- which is probably why there is a real struggle to create chances despite having top players in the team.

 I would either have the left side the same but the right side more conservative or the right side the same (minus the RWBa) and the left side more conservative. ATM there's overloads on both sides with no real pivot. When the DLPd gets the ball there's a high chance that the BBM and Mez are miles up the pitch along with the inside forward and the striker and probably just the winger to aim for who's space is congested by the RWB and MEZ .

 There's also an issue where both the midfielders are pushing the opposition midfielders deeper into their own half, while the CF is dropping off creating no space in between the lines. This could work for the MEZ and Inside Fwd to attack in behind but for a high ranked team like Liverpool, most opponents are going to sit very deep defensively which will negate the space behind for the inside fwd and Mez to attack anyway. Plus with no space in the lines - it's very hard for the supply to make those passes into the MEZ and IFWDa.

That's why I can see a lot of problems in this set up. I'd be looking at quick counter-attacking opportunities afforded by a CFa/ AF + IFWDa in transition. But also creating space between the lines when the build up is slower by using the CFa to push back the defensive line and one more conservative midfielder to draw the opponents out as well as acting as a pivot to make the most of an overload. 

Edited by Guerin

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Thank you guys for the detailed feedback, that is excellent. I made some role changes, trying to get players moving and creating some space for each other. Lets see how it goes. Would a Carrilero do a better job of pivoting with the AM, rather than the CM-S?

role change.PNG

Edited by teej9

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1 hour ago, teej9 said:

Would a Carrilero do a better job of pivoting with the AM, rather than the CM-S?

I read somewhere that the Carrilero is designed for formations without wingers/ wide players- like narrow 433 etc. Not sure how true it is, but it did enough to scare me away from the role for wide formations. 

 

Edited by Guerin

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1 hour ago, teej9 said:

role change.PNG

Looks decent. But you'll only know by playing it. It's good to start simple. play around with the roles and duties one at a time- if it doesn't work, come back to this and start again- until you start to see patterns of play. Once you've got your patterns you can start to add in more unorthodox roles to mix it up a bit and make your team unpredictable (like many have mentioned above) while preserving the core patterns, link up and combinations you've developed.

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Played a couple on lunch, not really any change, except i concede now. Last match against Spurs for example, it basically played out like the past few seasons, we created nothing, but we also had issues defending the long ball, which was new, so they thrashed us 3-1. We scored from an own goal off a corner. Small sample size, so i am just gonna keep testing this and seeing where to make small adjustments. 

Played one more and had a really solid result. Playing Swansea (they played a super deep 4141) we actually put 5 past them. No CCCs or Even Half Chances, but hey that is nearly a quarter of last years goal total!

Thanks again! 

Edited by teej9

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1 hour ago, teej9 said:

Thank you guys for the detailed feedback, that is excellent. I made some role changes, trying to get players moving and creating some space for each other. Lets see how it goes. Would a Carrilero do a better job of pivoting with the AM, rather than the CM-S?

role change.PNG

Bear in mind that the IF-Su and the CM-At will be attacking the same space. When your WB gets the ball, both players I mentioned will be inside the box or making runs towards the box. If your WB loses the ball, your left flank is completely exposed.

Your WB also does not have any supporting players around him other than the CF (who will not drop deep to provide support once you're in the final third, he will run into the box). If you want a pivot outside the area pulling the strings you're either looking at an AP or DLP. The first is more mobile and dribbles more, the other will spray passes and hold position.

As a rule of thumb, if you don't want to be exposed on the flanks you should have a more defensively aware player in midfield when you have an attacking role for your FB. Having an Anchorman helps, but against good wide players you better have an awesome guy, as he's your first line of defense when you lose the ball on the flanks.

A-De, DLP-Su and Mez-At is usually my go to midfield trio. Mez-At on the side of the IF-Su with a FB-Su behind, DLP behind the IF-At and a WB-Su. Striker is always a roaming role, usually DLF/F9 with roam from position with a player with good stats to do so.

Right now I'm trying to play on the counter, so I have an AP-At with a Mez-Su (the Mezzala has some good PPM's such as gets forward whenever possible). For possession I switch the duties on my midfielders and tick work ball into box, plus lower tempo, while pushing the D-Line and counter-pressing, but I don't have the players for that in the EPL.

What you have to think is: who is the glue who helps all those pieces link well? What passing options will your forwards and midfielders have and are they vertical, horizontal or backwards? Who's gonna cover for your attacking fullback?

Finally - where are most of your support players? This is where the play will often start and where you will see most of your passing combinations. The attacking duties are the ones making runs to get in the end of things. 

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Welp, played a handful after work, got canned after 12 matches with that default system. We still created nothing, but now we conceded 4 or so a match so thats good. I reverted to an old save pre-sacking and am just going to download a few tactics. 

Truly thanks for the help folks. 

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3 hours ago, teej9 said:

role change.PNG

This setup of roles and duties looks (much) better than all you have previously posted :thup:

However, there is a considerable defensive risk on the left flank, where you have both the fullback and CM on attack duties, which could well be the main reason that you are now conceding more goals (along with more urgent pressing). 

Here is an idea on how you may solve this issue and at the same time make your attacks more attractive and dynamic:

XX

IFat                                       XX

MEZsu     XX

XX

IWBsu       XX       XX       XX

XX

As you can see, here I touched only upon your left side. How about the rest? 

Well, you mentioned a carrilero: 

3 hours ago, teej9 said:

Would a Carrilero do a better job of pivoting with the AM, rather than the CM-S?

A carrilero - provided you have a suitable player - can do a great job covering for an attack-minded fullback or wing-back, which immediately gave me an interesting idea:

F9

IFat                                  IFsu

MEZsu    CAR

A/HB

IWBsu    CD/BPD   CD   WBat

SKsu

This is an example of how just a couple of tweaks can sometimes be more than enough to make a well-balanced and sensible system.

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1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

This setup of roles and duties looks (much) better than all you have previously posted :thup:

However, there is a considerable defensive risk on the left flank, where you have both the fullback and CM on attack duties, which could well be the main reason that you are now conceding more goals (along with more urgent pressing). 

Here is an idea on how you may solve this issue and at the same time make your attacks more attractive and dynamic:

XX

IFat                                       XX

MEZsu     XX

XX

IWBsu       XX       XX       XX

XX

As you can see, here I touched only upon your left side. How about the rest? 

Well, you mentioned a carrilero: 

A carrilero - provided you have a suitable player - can do a great job covering for an attack-minded fullback or wing-back, which immediately gave me an interesting idea:

F9

IFat                                  IFsu

MEZsu    CAR

A/HB

IWBsu    CD/BPD   CD   WBat

SKsu

This is an example of how just a couple of tweaks can sometimes be more than enough to make a well-balanced and sensible system.

Giving this a go.

First match, spanked at home by a ok Arsenal side. We created nothing, they scored 4 from 6 shots. 

Also dropped the pressing, will only use it as needed or as the match dictates. Thanks again!

Edited by teej9

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Something's not sounding right here

How are you conceding? Getting countered? Played through? Down a flank?  Set pieces?

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1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

Something's not sounding right here

How are you conceding? Getting countered? Played through? Down a flank?  Set pieces?

2 were just errors by my defense. 

The other two were counters, that looked to come from the fact that the ball seemed to get hung up with the IWB and WB-A just passing to each other slightly ahead of the DM strata. They were in the half space and just sat there passing back and forth until somebody took the ball off them. That was the impetus for both of other two, they won the ball drove right at my defence then simple through ball to the flank and a first time finish. 

Next match, played better, 4-2 win. Both conceded goals came from bad individual defending. I did sort of combine the two base formations we looked at. Playing around with this:

                                         F9-S

IF-A                                                                     IF-A

                          MEZ-S               CM-S

                                         HB-D

IWB-s                CD-D                   CD-D                 WB-S

 

Played that for 5 matches, 3 0-0 draws a 1-0 win and a 1-1 draw. Both goals scored were own goals and we haven't created a single CCC of HC in the run. The defence seems to have stabilised. 

 

Edited by teej9

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2 hours ago, teej9 said:

2 were just errors by my defense. 

The other two were counters, that looked to come from the fact that the ball seemed to get hung up with the IWB and WB-A just passing to each other slightly ahead of the DM strata. They were in the half space and just sat there passing back and forth until somebody took the ball off them. That was the impetus for both of other two, they won the ball drove right at my defence then simple through ball to the flank and a first time finish. 

Next match, played better, 4-2 win. Both conceded goals came from bad individual defending. I did sort of combine the two base formations we looked at. Playing around with this:

                                         F9-S

IF-A                                                                     IF-A

                          MEZ-S               CM-S

                                         HB-D

IWB-s                CD-D                   CD-D                 WB-S

 

Played that for 5 matches, 3 0-0 draws a 1-0 win and a 1-1 draw. Both goals scored were own goals and we haven't created a single CCC of HC in the run. The defence seems to have stabilised. 

 

You're not that far off. Try having a support duty for one of your wide forward players and one of your midfielders on attack duty.

What do you normally change during matches? No default tactic will win you all the games on its own, so maybe the issue is not the formation/tactic but how you adjust your TIs during the game. 

Not losing is the first step to winning it. You might not be satisfied, but you're on a 5-game unbeaten run. Win a couple more and then you're 3-5-0. That might be more frustrating for you as you are Liverpool though.

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I'll usually start with a higher press and line with a slightly higher tempo. If they are packed in deep and just holding I'll pull the line back, drop the tempo down, try and open some space between their mids and def, try and get their mids to chase mine, sort of. Rather than just throw players at them, like wave on the beach. 

On the other hand if we score and take a solid lead, I'll drop the line and tempo to more standard modes, basically tell the team to not run around so crazy, take it easy we are in control.

If I am getting battered, I try and make sure we are stable, I do something that is maybe insane, but if we are getting just shredded, I'll drop the LOE but keep the Dline at standard, the though being, "Lets load up the midfield and try and get some control" I'll also adjust width depending on where the battering is coming from. 

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So I just watched a match on Full, minimal TIs, A higher line and LOE, Shorter passing and lower tempo, then counter press and counter. Thats it. 

We just don't move. 90% of our possession and attack is the ball goes to either the IWB or WB and they stand there. Everyone else also stands there. After a few seconds, they either smash a long ball or get dispossessed. I have no PIs added and looking at the players PPMs i would think we would get some movement, but literally all forward and midfield players just kinda stand there. They make little 2 foot runs then go right back to where they were. I have zero clue how to solve this.  

 

I swapped the MCR to a DLP-S. I felt like we just had no one holding the middle directing traffic if you will, everybody was just trying to make a run.  Positive signs in the first match. 

Edited by teej9

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Am 21.9.2019 um 11:39 schrieb herne79:

Perhaps if you dedicated a small amount of effort to asking for help rather than being unhelpful like this, your impression of FM19 may be different.  At least try reading some of the really useful guides and strategies people have written about this year.

I dedicated enough time to the game trying to make the football I want to play work. Its impossible.

Every team defends like Atlético, extremely narrow and deep but the attacking players don't move off the ball well enough and don't use the space we'll enough to balance it out. 

 

 

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Am 21.9.2019 um 12:00 schrieb sporadicsmiles:

Ah so this is a thread where you can moan. I will not bother with any input then. I play some beautiful football in FM19.

Let me guess, you play gegenpress counter attack football 

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Right, CD(D)'s are very cautious with their passing, I always like a BPD(D) as an "output" from defense, of course you need a CB that's comfortable on the ball & can make a pass. If the HB(D) offered something different, I wouldn't use a BPD because the DMC slot could be an output from defense 

On the opposite flank I like having the more adventurous fullback, so if your CBR is a BPD then I'm talking about the LB & vice versa 

The HB is a cool safe role in defensive midfield to use so you don't need a DLP(S) in centre mid, that's another hold position role & will offer little penetration, ideally two runners in CM will offer that, like your Mezzala & if the CM(S) isn't up to it, try a BBM(S),  CM(A) or AP(A)

Untitled.thumb.png.85fc7c1ade1714da3bc508018e83ef6e.png  

I've not tried that or anything, just something I put together, the TIs don't apply & that left flank might be suicide but I've never used a MEZ :D   

Things I'd personally change, F9 to DLF(A), MEZ(S) to BBM(S), HB(D) to DM(D)/ DLP(D)

Just try & watch the games as much as you can & note anything not going to well or to plan, pick out the player, look at their role & attributes. Like I had a great player I wanted for the DLP(D) role, 4 star, had all the creative output in the world but when I really looked at him, his positioning, tackling & the like weren't up to scratch. I've trained him for 2 years & now he's stella & he isn't the cause of giving up chances against us but I'd make the assumption he was up to the task in the first place  

Plus, look at the player's PPM's that can screw up roles & your tactical "vision" like you don't want a FB(A) with "Stays back at all times" & the like 

Edited by Johnny Ace

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I got the bit between my teeth abit now and a half day so I found an old save with a 451, this might be a long one so strap yourself in :D. I'm Harrogate Town but we're a champions league team now up against Villa who are also playing 451. Whenever I make a tactic from scratch I watch full highlights and pause the game when my front five get the ball to see what my roles and duties are doing vs what I want them to be doing. The defensive side can wait. First and foremost, I want good attacking movement, patterns and chances. The False 9 is the only role I know I'm not going to change before I start because thats the role I want to build the team around, the set up is the same as yours but no TI's, PI's or OI's just as basic as possible standard settings.

...I make my first change in the first minute. 

FMHT.png

 

In the screenshot my LIFs has the ball. There's loads of space for my RCM to run into, but he's not going to because he's a CMs. I immediately switch him to a BBM. BBM will get into that space but he's also one of the more conservative options to do this. I want to keep everything as simple as possible at the moment.

FMHT2.png

When we build on the right my BBM creates an overload . When we build on the left he drives into space.

Edited by Guerin

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This is my next change.

 

FMHT3.png

What happens here is my LIFs gets the ball and passes inside to my F9 who has dropped off and dragged the CB with him. My BBM is trying to exploit that space and my RIFa is too. So 4 of my 5 forward players are doing what I want, but my LCMa is causing massive problems (highlighted in red.) He's way too close to my F9 and if you look he is actually trying to run forward through 3 opponents! There's a huge gap behind him. My F9 is facing the wrong way, so he needs a short backward passing option who can then play the pass into the space on the right hand side. The defensive issue is that if my F9 loses the ball the opposition has so much space for a counter attack. This is where I need a deeper lying pivot to play the passes and to give a bit of defensive solidity. So I switch my LCMa to a DLPs. 

I also make a note of the RIFa, essentially, because he is hardcoded to move inside he may run into the same space as my BBM. Later in the game I make my third change- switching him to RWa. This doesn't work. What happens is he is no longer involved in my early buildup play. His desire to stay super wide and run with the ball reduces my overloads and neuters my RWBs who is taken out of the game. So I just switch him back and get my desired results. 

Edited by Guerin

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OK last post. 

So I have good patterns of play now and I create tonnes of chances. Turns out Villa are a championship side so it makes sense they create so little. But my attacking play is good. I notice that my LIFs and my DLPs are my primary creators while my F9 drops deep making space for my BBM and LIFa to exploit. When we build on the right my BBM overloads them with the RIFa and the RWBs letting us switch the play quickly via my DLPs. This is just a baseline simple formation that has attacking patterns of play. If I wanted to make it more unpredictable I can go for less vanilla roles but stick to the patterns I'm creating.

LIFs is a creative passer in my setup so I could experiment with an advanced playmaker or a trequartista or even a winger support if I wanted to change something. 

DLPs is a pivot. I could experiment with a CMs here or perhaps a roaming playmaker (although he might get too far forward.)

BBM drives into space when buildup on the left, overloads when building on the right. He could also be a Mez (both attack and support get further forward,) a CMa, an Advanced playmaker (although he might not be as aggressive getting fwd)

RIFa is getting on the end of chances and exploiting the space my F9 leaves behind. I didn't like the him as a Winger A already, but he could also be a Ramdeuter perhaps. 

Anchor Man, sits in front of the defense making a three and covering wingbacks. Could also have a Half Back in this role. Alternatively, if I wanted a really aggressive press, perhaps a BWMd or DMd might work too.

Choosing any of these roles is about balancing attacking advantages with defensive frailties and seeing what works. 

I played Watford away in the prem next game, they're top six in my save. Had some issues as well. My flanks were very exposed and the better players of watford were able to exploit that, especially on the RWBs RIFa side as my wide man isn't tracking back. My wingbacks on both sides were aggressively engaging the opposition but leaving space in behind to be exploited. I also noticed my attacking players were being really aggressive with the ball going for the highest risk, highest reward passes which meant two things, we didn't have much possession and the high tempo of an attacking mentality means my wingbacks were't really getting up in time to influence the game in the final third. My front 5 still create chances as I know they will so  I could experiment with my Wingbacks as Fullbacks since they don't really get up fast enough to influence the attacking play anyway and might be more solid.

Alternatively I could look at TI's and mentality to address these issues. If I wanted to keep attacking perhaps pressing from the front combined with playing narrower will make me really compact in the middle and prevent opponents the time or space playing into those wide positions. Alternatively I might decide that the opponent can't score if they can't get the ball and drop my mentality back a bit to get my players focusing on lower risk passing options- that are present- and bringing my WBs into the game more, TI's like retain possession etc etc. There's no right answer here except the one that gets you results so just toggle around with it until you get what you're looking for.

Edited by Guerin

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