FM18 - I can't win a Champions League Final

[edunogmachado]

Hi guys.

I made a campaign with a small portuguese team named Feirense and a I had just lost my 7th champions league final at season 2041/2042 (never won any!).

It is weird because I have the best players of the world, I beat all the giant teams in other stages, but I am complete dominated at the champions league finals even against a very worse squad. 

Have the developers included an extra advantage related to the tradition of the team only for the champions league final?

Edited September 11, 2019 by edunogmachado

[FrazT]

No is the answer to your question- there is no scripted advantage, although club reputation is one of the many parameters that are used when calculating results.

[Phillybear]

Maybe your players have low "important matches" attribute

[Neotropolis]

19 minutes ago, Phillybear said:

Maybe your players have low "important matches" attribute

This^^

Quite a lot of people underestimate the importance of this attribute. If you're players don't enjoy the big matches, they certainly won't play well in the Champions League Final, arguably the biggest game in the European Football Calendar

[edunogmachado]

It is not the case. Only my left defender doesnt like important matches on the main team and I keep him because he is far better than his reserve. On the other hand, 5 other players enjoy important matches on the main team.

Anyway, I am considering to quit Feirense and restart on a more traditional team, so I will know if the Feirense T-shirt was the real handicap.

But it is very sad to give up after so many tries.

[yezzko]

Just don't give up man. You are going to break it. Try to change your tactics or something.

[yolixeya]

On 11/09/2019 at 04:33, edunogmachado said:

Have the developers included an extra advantage related to the tradition of the team only for the champions league final?

I think you have just been unlucky. Or you are doing something wrong, maybe you are too attacking in the final, or you put preassure on your players in the press conference prior the much or something like that. But I doubt it you could do that 7 times. Or maybe you did it 2-3 times and other times you were just unlucky. Who knows?I

To answer your question. I played with Lens in FM18 and in my first season in CL I won it. They are much more known then Feirense but still...

[sporadicsmiles]

Can I just point out Liverpool winning a Champion's League at Old Trafford would provoke a riot! Imagine this in real life!

This would suggest you are approaching the games wrong, either in the build up or tactically. Remember that the final is very different to a knockout game. Neutral venue, one leg. This will change how the AI approaches things for sure. What is actually causing you to lose? What do you see happening differently in the finals that does not happen in previous rounds? This can help you work out what, exactly, is going wrong.

The one thing I can tell you is that the game does not care who you are. There is no bias of cheats for the AI in FM.

[edunogmachado]

13 hours ago, yolixeya said:

To answer your question. I played with Lens in FM18 and in my first season in CL I won it. They are much more known then Feirense but still...

Omg, you won your first CL playing with Lens? That is very impressive.

On my campaign with Feirense, it took many seasons to build a competitive team, I improved it year by year. In my first CL seasons it was hard even to go through the group stage.

 

[edunogmachado]

12 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Can I just point out Liverpool winning a Champion's League at Old Trafford would provoke a riot! Imagine this in real life!

This would suggest you are approaching the games wrong, either in the build up or tactically. Remember that the final is very different to a knockout game. Neutral venue, one leg. This will change how the AI approaches things for sure. What is actually causing you to lose? What do you see happening differently in the finals that does not happen in previous rounds? This can help you work out what, exactly, is going wrong.

The one thing I can tell you is that the game does not care who you are. There is no bias of cheats for the AI in FM.

This last final against Lyon was by far the most frustrating. My main squad was complete and some of their few acceptable players were injured. Even though they dominated the match. They had 20 shots against 8 and won by 1 x 0. 

Before the final, I had passed with no difficulties through Juventus, Manchester United and Monaco, which are much stronger than Lyon.

In all these 7 finals, I was never really near the victory and only once I took it to the overtime. I still don't get how my team can behave so differently in the CL finals than the other stages or other tounaments.

[HUNT3R]

6 hours ago, edunogmachado said:

I still don't get how my team can behave so differently in the CL finals than the other stages or other tounaments.

This is where pressure is the highest. It's one of the most important matches, although this has been covered earlier.

Apart from that, the other stages will have home and away legs etc where this is one final elimination match and also at a neutral ground. Teams may line up differently in a final at a neutral ground compared to a home leg.

On a similar note, do you do anything different in a final? I had that issue in FM14. Couldn't win a CL final at all in that version. When I tried to analyse the matches to find reasons for that, I found I was just too cautious. In trying to be, I basically let the other team dominate and we could just never get into a match - always on the back foot.

After that, I tried being more confident in my managing ability and also the team who were good enough to get to a final, just like the other team! I started having more success with that approach. I'm not saying go all guns blazing though. Just don't roll over for the opposition. Your team must be good; you've made 7 finals!

[yolixeya]

10 hours ago, edunogmachado said:

In my first CL seasons it was hard even to go through the group stage.

On FM19, in 2 seasons with Genk in CL, I didn't go trough group stage either. With Lens on FM18 it was cool but kind of a fun killer because it came too early and I started thinking about another save immediately after that. Lens has a very good youth academy on FM18, that certainly helped along with expolitable tutoring system.

[Charco]

On 11/09/2019 at 04:25, FrazT said:

No is the answer to your question- there is no scripted advantage, although club reputation is one of the many parameters that are used when calculating results.

Should reputation be one of the parameters to calculate results?  Certainly it should affect ability to attract players but results? I understand it may be difficult to code but results? Today is 14/09/19 Man Utd are playing Leicester today. Utd's midfield without Pogba  (understand negative opinions of him!) is midtable at best. Utd's reputation will have little consequence on the match. If  Utd win I'll be surprised (leicester odds look great value!).  

So is reputation a valid input into result calculation? I don't think it should be (Again understand coding reasons why it is)

Edited September 14, 2019 by Charco

[FrazT]

50 minutes ago, Charco said:

Should reputation be one of the parameters to calculate results?  Certainly it should affect ability to attract players but results? I understand it may be difficult to code but results? Today is 14/09/19 Man Utd are playing Leicester today. Utd's midfield without Pogba  (understand negative opinions of him!) is midtable at best. Utd's reputation will have little consequence on the match. If  Utd win I'll be surprised (leicester odds look great value!).  

So is reputation a valid input into result calculation? I don't think it should be (Again understand coding reasons why it is)

I understand where you are coming from and of course it probably wouldn't be in a real life situation.  This , however , is a computer game and there will need to be some parameters that are taking into account when trying to calculate a result.  Luckily it is only one of many that are used.

[saiyaman]

You know, I've used the exact same tactic I devised way back in FM 14 in EVERY damn FM which got released later and still got good results.

I won the Champion's league three times in a row and also the league 2 times in a row and I play always with LFC.

You know what is the common factor?

It's not the tactics.

It's not the specific player.

It's not the world class player.

It's not the world class team.

It's PATIENCE. The patience to watch for any kind of problems which may occur in your tactic and give yourself enough time to react to them.

Let's say you've got a world class tactic. Are you telling me that you're going to put it on key highlights just because you have got World Class players? You are literally robbing yourself of the chances you can have to remove mistakes in the game. The longer you watch the more chances you have.

Finally ask this: If your tactic was a static best win all games without any change just like a video game and not like a real simulation where things can wrong by the slightest of ego massages of a temperamental player why would you play FM?

[Charco]

8 hours ago, FrazT said:

I understand where you are coming from and of course it probably wouldn't be in a real life situation.  This , however , is a computer game and there will need to be some parameters that are taking into account when trying to calculate a result.  Luckily it is only one of many that are used.

Yep I understand! Just venting cos I've just lost 3 games in a row to Manchester teams by one goal despite having similar rep players and  dominating possession, shots, cccs, half chances... Being FMd 3 times in a row due to what seems to be reputation is a pain!!

[Svenc]

The term "FM'd" btw is grossly misused in roughly About 8.9/10 cases.  (The game just doesN't  the data and/or General Feedback to Show that).

If your main and solely idea of "Managing" is dominating Possession, shots, chances on a spreadsheet by the time the final whistle is kicked etc. then you will Always come out frustrated at some Point. NO less as some of the more popular AI tactics happily let you dominate each by the end of a match, perhaps only ever attacking itself in Bursts (e.g. going behind 10 minutes from time, then switching to an attacking Approach, on the Occasion, with success).

Reputation doesn't work the way it sounds by some it is. It doesn't factor in the calculation of a result as such. It mainly factors into the tactical Approach the AI takes. E.g. "Am i the favorite in this match or the Underdog". If it's the Underdog, there is a strong likelyhood of the AI taking a more cautious Approach, primarily focused on making it harder to score at the expense of attacking oomph, which means most of FM's stats will be dominated by your Team by Default.... like with any Team primarily focused on defending, e.g. Germany's Opposition -- all three of them -- in the Group stages last World Cup. All three taking the lead too, which allowed them to Focus even more on defending, and forcing Germany to attacking even more  (and take more attempts, reflected by their amount of shots come the end of each match).

Edited September 14, 2019 by Svenc

[Tajerio]

23 hours ago, FrazT said:

I understand where you are coming from and of course it probably wouldn't be in a real life situation.  This , however , is a computer game and there will need to be some parameters that are taking into account when trying to calculate a result.  Luckily it is only one of many that are used.

I was under the impression that reputation was only used as a direct factor in calculating results in AI vs. AI matches in competitions not set to full detail.  I know it has an indirect effect--reputation is the main way the AI measures how good a team is, and, therefore, how attacking or defensive to be--but I didn't think it would ever matter as a direct input into the simulation in a match in which the human player is involved.

[FrazT]

Perhaps only the coders wold know for sure, but I cant see how there would be a different formula in the code used for AI v AI matches. There are so many factors that the code uses to calculate a result, so I am sure that whilst it is one of the parameters used, it would be best not to get too hung up on it.

[Svenc]

4 hours ago, FrazT said:

Perhaps only the coders wold know for sure, but I cant see how there would be a different formula in the code used for AI v AI matches.

There's no different Formula for AI vs AI Matches. There is a different Formula for Competitions not set to full Detail. E.g. the latter don't actually go through the match engine proper (90 minutes kicking, and whatever is the result at the end of that… is the result). But a quick sim that indeed just churns out results (and stats) -- e.g. the result ot being an actual Simulation of a match, kick by kick -- but some data fed into an algorithm to  quickly calculate a  result. (NOt sure how Reputation works there tho) However, back then there was an Experiment that highlighted flaws in this quickly-calculate-a-result algorithm, as was admitted. Basically, a user showed that Reputation was far too much a factor in churning out these quick results. He moved all Chelsea Players to Millwall (then League 1), and neither did Millwall trash League 1, nor did Chelsea get steamrolled in the EPL (actually, they even got to the CL semis). As soon as Things were set to "full Detail", that didn't come to pass, as the Matches were "played out". It's likely been reworked, but who knows! There's still likely a bias towards the "favorites". Actually, I'd expect there to be one given what the "Job" of that quick sim is -- quickly churning out "believable" results. However, it may not be that huge anymore compared to the actual Squad Quality.  
 

The only other way Reputation may somewhat factor into the goings of an fully simulated match is that there may be some more "pressure" on the favorite, and vice versa, which may affect mental traits / Body language of players. Actually, IIRC it's not Reputation directly by which the AI decide their tactical match Approach. Reputation factors into the match odds calculated Prior to a match, and it is from these odds that the AI picks its Approach. It's basically a mechanic implemented into the game so that the AI may behave "realistically" -- and not go gung-ho as Burnley away to Stamford Bridge -- not at the start of a save anyway, when Chelsea are strong favorites. A human Player may ignore odds/reputation completely and attack wherever they go (as is typically the case, hence, why so few Players ever get Matches where they ever score off few shots…)

Any match you get to compete in (and any AI vs AI match in that same Competition) is simulated in full detail, that is the match engine by default. That "quick sim" just churning out results may be a necessity as -- well, if you don't have a super Computer, just go into the "Detail" Settings of your save and set the entire game world to "full Detail" and see.  

Edited September 15, 2019 by Svenc

[Charco]

On 14/09/2019 at 16:51, Svenc said:

The term "FM'd" btw is grossly misused in roughly About 8.9/10 cases.  (The game just doesN't  the data and/or General Feedback to Show that).

If your main and solely idea of "Managing" is dominating Possession, shots, chances on a spreadsheet by the time the final whistle is kicked etc. then you will Always come out frustrated at some Point. NO less as some of the more popular AI tactics happily let you dominate each by the end of a match, perhaps only ever attacking itself in Bursts (e.g. going behind 10 minutes from time, then switching to an attacking Approach, on the Occasion, with success).

Reputation doesn't work the way it sounds by some it is. It doesn't factor in the calculation of a result as such. It mainly factors into the tactical Approach the AI takes. E.g. "Am i the favorite in this match or the Underdog". If it's the Underdog, there is a strong likelyhood of the AI taking a more cautious Approach, primarily focused on making it harder to score at the expense of attacking oomph, which means most of FM's stats will be dominated by your Team by Default.... like with any Team primarily focused on defending, e.g. Germany's Opposition -- all three of them -- in the Group stages last World Cup. All three taking the lead too, which allowed them to Focus even more on defending, and forcing Germany to attacking even more  (and take more attempts, reflected by their amount of shots come the end of each match).

Would not disagree with you. I meant the "FM'd" thing as tongue-in-cheek btw! I did say it "seemed" to be reputation. I do think that it shouldn't have any affect on results if the the coders could find a way to do it though.

[MagicHat]

I remember having this problem, as much as i hated to do it, i changed my tactics to a defensive counter attack for cup finals. On the stats i always get dominated but i won more finals, usually because if i wasn't winning i'd be drawing, which meant i had the opportunity of winning via extra time or pens... where as in an attacking formation against the best teams in the world, you tend to be more open to easier chances.