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"The silent majority", aka FM can't change much


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6 hours ago, jcp1417 said:

I'll never understand the "make me not able to cheat" mentality. Want to win legitimately? don't cheat. don't exploit. It's really that simple

This.  I've never understood why people seem so hung up on how other people play a starkly single-player game.

The converse of that is that if you want to go into the editor and give everyone 20, then go right ahead.  Everyone enjoys the game in different ways.

4 hours ago, masno said:

The problem with it is we don't know if the game is just to easy right now with guys that conquer all in 4-6 seasons with a team of a obscure league at the point that this is frequent, or that maybe half of the guys that do this are actually cheating.
Lets suppose a hardcore/iron man mode is introduced in FM, and by the end of the year the data states that just 10% of the player base used this mode, and just 2% won actual continental competitions back to back,while the others had normal careers, conquering some titles, getting sacked, but playing fair. After all this data being brought up, the same people continue to claim the game is to easy,but doesn't show if their saves are or not IM/HC mode. What we could suppose from it is that the game is indeed hard from most of the player base, and that things should be kept in this way. But instead, we see that half of the player base actually are playing HC/IM mode, and most of them are actually owning the AI, then it's time to rethink on the difficult of the game.

Are you suggesting that SI are using people saying "it's too easy/hard" as the means to tune the game?  Really?

Si likely are't going into ME development with an idea of difficulty in their minds.  They're going in trying to make it behave as realistically as possible.  The "difficulty" (which is massively subjective) is a byproduct, not an objective.

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3 hours ago, forameuss said:

Si likely are't going into ME development with an idea of difficulty in their minds.  They're going in trying to make it behave as realistically as possible.  The "difficulty" (which is massively subjective) is a byproduct, not an objective.

Exactly.

The problems stem from the AI not making the most of the players at their disposal, playing players out of position, dreadful long-term squad building, nonsensical mentality / formations and failing to develop young players at the rate that users can.

Addressing these key points would be more than sufficient for a realistic level of challenge.

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17 minutes ago, rdbayly said:

Exactly.

The problems stem from the AI not making the most of the players at their disposal, playing players out of position, dreadful long-term squad building, nonsensical mentality / formations and failing to develop young players at the rate that users can.

Addressing these key points would be more than sufficient for a realistic level of challenge.

Yeah, agreed.  AI is hard, particularly when you've got thousands of agents (in the coding sense, not the sporting sense) inside the game all having to behave "realistically".  I'd say they behave fairly serviceably, but the problem is that one of the agents inside the game is you.  And you are a thousand times smarter than your "opponent" and can actually think for yourself rather than reacting to a coded script.  It always amuses me when people talk about the transfer module being unfair, when it has always been ridiculously easy to absolutely rinse the AI.  My old negotiation style in FM would fall apart against a human user pretty quickly, but the AI gets led down the path easily.

Of course, there's a limit to how good the AI is going to be made.  If - and it's a big if - SI were to develop an AI that could truly think, and come even close to the sort of reasoning a human can employ, then the game will be far, far too difficult for the average user.  I'm not sure that's something SI really want.

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1 hour ago, forameuss said:

Yeah, agreed.  AI is hard, particularly when you've got thousands of agents (in the coding sense, not the sporting sense) inside the game all having to behave "realistically".  I'd say they behave fairly serviceably, but the problem is that one of the agents inside the game is you.  And you are a thousand times smarter than your "opponent" and can actually think for yourself rather than reacting to a coded script.  It always amuses me when people talk about the transfer module being unfair, when it has always been ridiculously easy to absolutely rinse the AI.  My old negotiation style in FM would fall apart against a human user pretty quickly, but the AI gets led down the path easily.

Of course, there's a limit to how good the AI is going to be made.  If - and it's a big if - SI were to develop an AI that could truly think, and come even close to the sort of reasoning a human can employ, then the game will be far, far too difficult for the average user.  I'm not sure that's something SI really want.

I know nothing about coding AI, but there are some glaring issues that I would think could and should be addressed. 

For example, in my most recent save, I went for a Serie A challenge as Napoli. I restricted myself to only signing and developing Italian players. I wanted a long-term project to topple Juve's domination. The result? I won the treble in season 1, and the quadruple by season 2. I recall beating Juve 4-0 early in the save, and wanted to understand why this was so simple. Their team selection was ridiculous; picking a technically gifted midfield trio with poor positioning, teamwork, bravery and tackling attributes. Of course my average (but brutal) midfield was going to dominate them (ask Arsenal fans).

The big issue with FM19 is that I simply don't feel I've earned my successes. I've never won more trophies, yet derived less enjoyment from doing so.

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14 horas atrás, forameuss disse:

 

Si likely are't going into ME development with an idea of difficulty in their minds.  They're going in trying to make it behave as realistically as possible.  The "difficulty" (which is massively subjective) is a byproduct, not an objective.

Miles already said multiple times in his twitter that SI have access to all screens and options that players use in their game, and they use this data to actually get information of how players actually play. What I suggested (and surpriseling enough you took this out of contest) is that if SI decided to put a Iron mode/hardcore mode they would actually see if the player base will adopt it,or leave it,simple as that.

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To be successful, games need to strike a balance between difficulty and pleasure in order to keep gamers engaged longer.

EA is developing a new technology called "dynamic difficulty adjustment" which basically is coding that tweaks (cheats?) game difficulty according your performance on the go. (Check YouTube video "EA does not want you to see this").

It seems SIGA isn't as well funded as EA (strategy doesn't sell as well as action games), so some frustrating flaws in game play are bound to persist.

Developers' desire to improve game coding is constrained by the budget available to fund the business...

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9 hours ago, masno said:

Miles already said multiple times in his twitter that SI have access to all screens and options that players use in their game, and they use this data to actually get information of how players actually play. What I suggested (and surpriseling enough you took this out of contest) is that if SI decided to put a Iron mode/hardcore mode they would actually see if the player base will adopt it,or leave it,simple as that.

...to what end?  Do they really want to spend a lot of time developing and testing a feature just to see if people use it?

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6 hours ago, phd_angel said:

To be successful, games need to strike a balance between difficulty and pleasure in order to keep gamers engaged longer.

EA is developing a new technology called "dynamic difficulty adjustment" which basically is coding that tweaks (cheats?) game difficulty according your performance on the go. (Check YouTube video "EA does not want you to see this").

If this is a Thing, it's basically rubber-banding. Like the AI cars in a rubber-banded racing game getting a Speed boost to catch up with the Player. Not a particularly good Thing, and despite the numerous Claims of "cheating AI!" as to FM, one SI have avoided like the plague, as the main Designers are "pure" in Terms of design. :D 

Dunno About "difficulty". But what I personally find Always a tad disheartening in Releases that Code this tactical engine Thing, but then letting the likes of AI Guardiola not knowing fairly Basic Things when trying to hold the ball (like not having your entire Frontline spearhead all Play and disconnect from the midfield, for a start….) On games that have never pretended to be a bit of tactical Simulators (I'm no hardcore nut either from my end btw), that was less of an issue though. As argued: I prefer games that take their Features to go some of the way, rather than compromise too much. A game can be light on features, but go somewhere, like many casual games go. Somebody going in there and spotting all These Things may inevitably else come out a bit disheartened. Plus, for all the tactical communities, they're just another Bonus Point over the AI. Again I'm questioning why the game at all allows such. If an AI or Player is trying to Play Possession based Football, then that should be available as an implemented Concept. One or two misplaced roles alone can mess it up all -- tricky considering that the AI switches Things during Matches.

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Ok, I'll go balls to the wall here.

Future FM should do away with roles and duties, in favour of General Playing Styles and Gameplans.

Most of the current tactical issues, even in AI v AI matches, stem from an overabundance of options that end up creating chaos and misunderstandings, in addition to show the ME/TC's shortcomings up in a blatant way.

I see why SI wanted to expand on roles and duties, following the "everyone's an expert" fad pushed by the media. But do you really think real managers go "ok Johnny, today you're playing Deep Lying Playmaker with Support duties, so you can Get Forward, but not Wide, Pass direct and distribute to both flanks and don't shoot".

Those things come naturally from the formation, the general playing style and the expectations for the game. Clearly if you're a relegation candidate playing away at a Top Club, you're likely parking the bus and you'll need your midfielders to play lower and defensive.

Instead the current system is basically like a restaurant manager not giving you much info about the ingredients or the dishes, so you may end up putting tomato sauce instead of strawberry jam in your cake and nobody'd notice til the customers start complaining about how it "tastes awful".
It's the epitome of the "square peg, round hole"... It doesn't fit, it won't ever fit, but you're still free to try and fail at it, whereas a better system shouldn't allow you to do that.

Which doesn't mean it's gonna be just pedestrian handholding and spoonfeeding... You'll still be able to pick the wrong tactic for your squad or the wrong gameplan for a specific match. It'll only look more coherent even in its wrongness.
Teams lose matches because they get outplayed, outmuscled or outsmarted. Not because 11 players suddenly start playing an abomination of football that makes no sense whatsoever.

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2 ore fa, RBKalle ha scritto:

I see why SI wanted to expand on roles and duties, following the "everyone's an expert" fad pushed by the media. But do you really think real managers go "ok Johnny, today you're playing Deep Lying Playmaker with Support duties, so you can Get Forward, but not Wide, Pass direct and distribute to both flanks and don't shoot".

i've written about this  a lot, and theoretically speaking, i absolutely agree with you. Depending on phase of the play, position on the pitch, opposition and various other factors, a player can play different roles on the pitch during not only a match, but a single attack.

Football is so dynamic, so fluid, that players (while indeed having their particular responsibilities) are expected to participate in different phases of play with different roles. 

342314326_playingoutoftheback.thumb.png.7ca93ed1e9ae9d8d2df8c85dcab65246.png

In above example you see a real example of a team within 4-3-3 shape with three different variants of play out of the back. To make it more understandable;

GK (89), RB (32), RCB (3), LCB (33), LB (23), DM (7), LCM (27), RCM (19), LW (70), CF (9), RW (97)-

Let's focus on the green rectangle. The aim is to create space on the left flank where their creative midfielder (19) can receive pass in space. To achieve this, the team plays a back pass with whole team dropping deep. This intends to invite the opposition into high press hoping to stretch them vertically in order to create space to attack. So the back line drops deep which forces the opposition to follow. As the LB (23) drops deep, the LW (97) will push up as much as allowed by the opposition back line. This creates vertical space (green rectangle) that allows the CM (19) to move into space and receive the pass.

In FM, this movement of the CM can be replicated with Mezz'ala role. However, what FM doesn't replicate, is the movement of other two players (LW and LB) who are responsible for creating space that CM can use. Furthermore, this diagonal movement towards the flank is only one (among numerous other) solutions to get out of the back. In another situation, that same CM will drop deep into space of the full back while the full back is allowed to move higher up the pitch. In that case, our #19 would have more of the DM role (in FM terms).

What I want to say is that players in the team aren't shoehorned into their roles. Football is way more dynamic and roles switch within a second. This is the major reason why football in the ME doesn't really play as real thing. Real football is way too complicated than what FM tells you. 

That being said, I really see no satisfactory way of replicating that within a computer game and SI does the best job there is. 

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tbf the "different roles in the same move" is why SI went down the route of creating roles rather than more prescriptive approaches like WIBL/WOBL or arrows or sliders. Many of the roles get lots of freedom to roam around and/or are programmed to do different things according to where the spaces or their teammates are, and even pretty prescriptive roles like stay wider wingers still pop up at the back post when the play's switched and cut inside if their footedness or spaces allow for it.

And if you could pre-program actual moves like the one above, it wouldn't take long for people to figure out how to pull the match engine apart with certain illogical running directions and watching them do the same thing repeatedly would be dull

 

I don't particularly like the roles inasmuch as I think they're dubiously named, very newbie-unfriendly and a lot of them are too similar, but they're definitely a better option to produce realistic football than assuming the only way a manager can get his centre mid to attract the ball and try to dribble a lot is to sign Paul Pogba or switch formation to include a number 10, or assuming that if a manager draws a player in a particular position on his chalkboard he always runs to that point in that phase of play.

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14 horas atrás, forameuss disse:

...to what end?  Do they really want to spend a lot of time developing and testing a feature just to see if people use it?

SI already do this,a lot of times. Not in the part of the test, to be honest, but in the part of creating features and hoping players adopt it. Clear examples are: the medical tab, that while is very informative, I doubt that even 20% use it actively( month after month). The social media tab is also other tab that was introduced by SI and loads of players state that they ignore it during the gameplay. If SI simple have the same line of thought that you have, they would just replace FM classic with an improved touch with just the features that the majority of the player base uses and likes.

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For all this talk about people in facebook groups only bragging about their quintuples with Manchester United, I see plenty of posts where casual players have underachieved quite badly with big teams and asked for help as they keep getting sacked. I think the casual players experience goes either way, of course if you dislike seeing the plug and play tactic braggarts your confirmation bias will lead to a distorted perception of casual players. Here's a particularly good one that comes to mind from one of the facebook groups.

Capture2.PNG

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Kind of interesting how opinions on difficulty levels shifted. A year ago nobody wanted to even hear a mention of them and now they seem to be on everybody's lips. Truth be told, FM doesn't need a difficulty level but just a bunch of difficulty options. Give players the options to choose Ironman mode, or no-downloads mode, or whatever else you can think of, just like you can now choose to view players stats or not. 

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8 hours ago, masno said:

SI already do this,a lot of times. Not in the part of the test, to be honest, but in the part of creating features and hoping players adopt it. Clear examples are: the medical tab, that while is very informative, I doubt that even 20% use it actively( month after month). The social media tab is also other tab that was introduced by SI and loads of players state that they ignore it during the gameplay. If SI simple have the same line of thought that you have, they would just replace FM classic with an improved touch with just the features that the majority of the player base uses and likes.

But that might also be because many of those tabs are useless. Let's take the medical tab. I rarely use it, maybe once a season, but that's because all the information there is useless stuff that doesn't help me in any way. After every couple of games my whole first team is on "very high" injury risk. Besides the fact that rarely do any of those injuries ever happen and this information doesn't help me at all. What could I possibly do? Stop using my first team every 3 days because they're at high risk? Obviously not! Put in a rotation system? I already did that as most FM players with a few years of experience have kind of gotten the hang of how everything works. So what's the point of telling me my players are at a higher risk of injury when I still need to play them? Obviously people will ignore the information and, sooner rather than later, they will start ignoring the tab.

The social media tab is even worse. It's completely useless and non interactive. You can't use it for literally anything. It doesn't even gauge how supporters truly feel about what you're doing because there's always a more or less equal number of negative vs positive comments even in completely stupid situations (i.e. you win 5-0 against a title rival). On top of that it's not even good for entertainment because in one month you'll have seen all the messages some can post to "social media". So why even bother clicking on it then?

There's loads of these useless tabs in the game. Finances? Pointless. The financial model in this game is stupidly easy and the key to success is very clear: buy low, sell high and get prize money. Having everything broken down by categories when you (mostly) can't do anything to influence 60% of what's on there is useless information. Hell, I would argue even the training tab is filled with useless information you can't do anything with. 

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11 hours ago, enigmatic said:

I don't particularly like the roles inasmuch as I think they're dubiously named, very newbie-unfriendly and a lot of them are too similar, but they're definitely a better option to produce realistic football than assuming the only way a manager can get his centre mid to attract the ball and try to dribble a lot is to sign Paul Pogba or switch formation to include a number 10, or assuming that if a manager draws a player in a particular position on his chalkboard he always runs to that point in that phase of play.

The issue arguably aren't that much the roles.

The issue is that, as SI staff have said in the Bugs Forums too; one misplaced instruction/role can Change the way an (AI) Team Plays entirelly. 

What was introduced as "Presets" may be worth embracing as concepts fully -- therefore, combinations that prove contradicting for a style of Football to florish to get locked out. E.g. AI/human Managers trying to move the ball About, yet either having no deeperish link-up man in midfield providing Options for ball Retention in Areas of lesser pressure -- or having the entire front-line spearheading Play to never really link up with anyone.

The side-effect would also narrowing down options, which would make it easier to balance for specific styles of Play (and less worry About "nonsensical" combinations). It's the same Argument as back when the Sliders were around. Back then everybody got to "invent" his own roles. Say, for me a deep lying playmaker was a player set to never run forward, have through balls on max, passing on mixed. However, it wasn't until SI embraced roles as concepts fully, that they could Isolate them as such, address them as such in the Code (if Player is playmaker then), and make them more distinct as well as stand out more.

Prior that deep lying playmaker of mine was simply a Player that when he received the ball tried to Play through balls and never moved upfield. Now that SI have made him (or their Definition of a DLP) a part of the Code, he's also a Player providing movement and decision makings exclusive to a Deep lying playmaker. He's actually coded into the game. Styles of Play though have yet not been embraced as concepts fully. Therefore, it is easy to get lost in Translation for all parties involved, AI included. 

Edited by Svenc
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2 ore fa, grasu ha scritto:

But that might also be because many of those tabs are useless. Let's take the medical tab. I rarely use it, maybe once a season, but that's because all the information there is useless stuff that doesn't help me in any way. After every couple of games my whole first team is on "very high" injury risk. Besides the fact that rarely do any of those injuries ever happen and this information doesn't help me at all. What could I possibly do? Stop using my first team every 3 days because they're at high risk? Obviously not! Put in a rotation system? I already did that as most FM players with a few years of experience have kind of gotten the hang of how everything works. So what's the point of telling me my players are at a higher risk of injury when I still need to play them? Obviously people will ignore the information and, sooner rather than later, they will start ignoring the tab.

The social media tab is even worse. It's completely useless and non interactive. You can't use it for literally anything. It doesn't even gauge how supporters truly feel about what you're doing because there's always a more or less equal number of negative vs positive comments even in completely stupid situations (i.e. you win 5-0 against a title rival). On top of that it's not even good for entertainment because in one month you'll have seen all the messages some can post to "social media". So why even bother clicking on it then?

There's loads of these useless tabs in the game. Finances? Pointless. The financial model in this game is stupidly easy and the key to success is very clear: buy low, sell high and get prize money. Having everything broken down by categories when you (mostly) can't do anything to influence 60% of what's on there is useless information. Hell, I would argue even the training tab is filled with useless information you can't do anything with. 

I know we're going off-topic, please allow me just a couple of lines about it.

Apart of trainings, which i'd like to be enhanced, I agree with this.

FM is becoming too fat. Way too fat. Too much stuff to read and to do before actually doing something we really care about: put down our squad with the right tactic and play the match.

The rest is really really needless. And, as I said in  another thread, starting a new season is truly harming.

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I'm the opposite. I look at the medical screen before and after every match and I use it to plan my upcoming training schedules and squad rotation - It's one of my most frequently used screens. 

This is one of the problems SI have to deal with - there's so many ways that users interact with and play the game. 

Edited by DementedHammer
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1 hour ago, DementedHammer said:

I'm the opposite. I look at the medical screen before and after every match and I use it to plan my upcoming training schedules and squad rotation - It's one of my most frequently used screens. 

This is one of the problems SI have to deal with - there's so many ways that users interact with and play the game. 

Nearly every player in my first 11 is constantly on "Very high injury risk", especially during the fall season when my team plays ever 3 days. Yet, despite all this, my injuries, according to the Sports Scientist, are 50-60% lower than the other teams in my league and are lower than the previous year. My training is completely handled by my ass man. Effectively, the information that my players are highly susceptible to injuries is useless because those injuries never happen and that information is constantly repeated and blanketed to every player in my squad just because they played in my starting 11. The only time that information is even remotely useful is when throwing a recovering player into your team. Then, indeed ,the screen does let you know that they have a extremely high risk of injury and, sometimes, they actually get injured.

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4 hours ago, Federico said:

 Too much stuff to read and to do before actually doing something we really care about: put down our squad with the right tactic and play the match.

In real life there is no such thing as a "the right tactic". There is a succession of tactics adapted to the moment and a general conduct based on the characteristics of the available players. But if this were implemented in FM it would be necessary for the player to watch carefully at least half a match.  And many casual players wouldn't do that.

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On 31/08/2019 at 15:57, rdbayly said:

I’ve given up following all prominent You Tube series because it’s a gegenpress steamroll fest. 

There is giant swathe of the user base that simply wants to win and then declare their achievements ‘remarkable’.

I’d appreciate it if users had a clearly defined tactical identity they persisted with, but the inconvenient truth is that people pick what works in the iteration (striker less narrow in 17, 3 up front last year, gegenpress this year). 

Its a shame the game does not reward the user for solid ideas, yet showers them in trophies for going with flavour of the month for this or that version.

The embarrassing ease with which you can sign star players is a primary reason this game lacks challenge.

Add overly defensive AI and passive transfer policy, it’s no wonder it rains quadruples for the continue button mashers.

 

Yeah that's what annoys me about most YouTube series - there's literally nobody who goes from being sack in 2 clubs in a row to actually doing semi decent (like me!).

I did notice someone did a career update thread on these forums which got off to a terrible start at the start and eventually did well, only to jump ship and not to great.. those kind of careers I love reading about and give me inspiration when I'm doing terrible in my own FM career.

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5 hours ago, DementedHammer said:

I'm the opposite. I look at the medical screen before and after every match and I use it to plan my upcoming training schedules and squad rotation - It's one of my most frequently used screens. 

This is one of the problems SI have to deal with - there's so many ways that users interact with and play the game. 

Conversely I never look at the medical screen, completely ignore if anyone is high risk,  and don't alter any training schedules.

Yet by hiring the best physios/sport scientists/coaches, I get less injuries than normal and all my players improve well.

A lot of FM is about "customization with no consequence", I'm not a fan of that myself.

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38 minuti fa, keylertage ha scritto:

We are perfectly free to avoid the editor and choose a difficult club in a difficult league, and set further restrictions like a Youth Challenge.

Yeah, but we shouldn't be forced to go to such great lengths in order to keep the game difficult for a couple of extra seasons before the AI's weaknesses kick in and destroy any semblance of challenge.

38 minuti fa, keylertage ha scritto:

What the casuals choose to do and post on social media is not something that need bother us in the slightest.

And I think you're so so wrong about that!

Au contraire, it matters a lot more than what WE "hardcores" choose. We'd play the game almost regardless, be it the easiest most pedestrian "buy 5 Wonderkids, click Continue til you're bored with winning Quintuples" experience or a frustrating, Dark Souls-esque exercise in gaming masochism where even the most insignificant piece of silverware is an epic success.

But as long as the Joe Q. Player wants to show off his impressive run in 2022-23 CL with former Vanarama side Bumfluff County or a 465-games undefeated streak with FC Moneybags, obtained by downloading tactics, reloading, using wonderkids shortlists and assorted shortcuts, rest assured SI won't put their neck on the line by trying something revolutionary, daring and ultimately risky. And, just to be clear, I don't blame them for that one bit!

So yeah, as long as the biggest portion of the customer base will be happy with the current philosophy, there's no need to change it.

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Am 6.9.2019 um 00:22 schrieb masno:

SI already do this,a lot of times. Not in the part of the test, to be honest, but in the part of creating features and hoping players adopt it. Clear examples are: the medical tab, that while is very informative, I doubt that even 20% use it actively( month after month). The social media tab is also other tab that was introduced by SI and loads of players state that they ignore it during the gameplay. If SI simple have the same line of thought that you have, they would just replace FM classic with an improved touch with just the features that the majority of the player base uses and likes.

Since the injury rate is reduced to 80 percent of the real value (whether you like it or not), the medical center as a feature is almost pointless, yes. If this were not the case, and you would have to deal with smaller and larger injuries more frequently, this tab would make more sense. But "the silent majority" just complains when they are confronted with injuries more often. Preventive training control is not necessary at all as long as there are no players in the squad who are prone to injuries.

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On 10/09/2019 at 21:19, leviathan1904 said:

Since the injury rate is reduced to 80 percent of the real value (whether you like it or not), the medical center as a feature is almost pointless, yes.

Interestingly, IIRC one of the main reasons it was introduced was the perennial injury Backlash despite the "80%" -- and a lack of a benchmark proper for it all. Given the thousands of players, that Backlash is gonna come for as Long as the injuries aren't tested to be at 0% Long-term, btw.  Basic rule of the thumb, as Long as something can happen, it will, repeatedly. :D 

Quote

Essentially, there are vast numbers of blackjack games played around the world each year, so although the chance of such an event on any particular game is very small, the chance that it occurs somewhere amongst all those millions of games is quite high.

Now if only they would replace the final match Reports arguing that every time a side with x time more shots it was "unfortunate" to lose. Then they may even get rid some of the "cheating AI", "game is rigged" and "AI Always scores with fewer shots" complaints (well that plus coding their AI to not park the bus, the house and the Chinese Wall in front of their Goal that unrealistically oftenly). :D 
 

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There are many issues with making FM more realistic. At this point, I would assume it's nigh on impossible for Miles and co to make genuinely huge changes in the code, with how complex it must have gotten over the years. Unless they have also been getting rid of old code, I'm also going to assume a lot of the base for the game is much older code that is still kept in code, which is why some of the features don't really change. 

 

Now for the more obvious issues. Realistically, you're going to need a 10-15 year save to get a Conference team to the Premier League. You will then need 4-5 years to stabilise there. How many people will play 20 seasons to get their team into a position where they can think of getting top 6 or sneaking in via the 7th spot before taking on the top 6? Let alone the title, which should take around 25-30 seasons. Even the best case scenarios people quote like Bournemouth are still stabilising in the PL, and are almost always at risk of relegation. And then maybe you just directly win the CL, but still, that's a heck of a long save for most people. I've never done 30 seasons, just to put this into context.

 

We then have challenges like the Gibraltar challenge. Realistically, no team in that league should ever win the CL. They should only be grow to an extent. They shouldn't be able to get the sponsorship and attendances they do manage to. Who would like that?

 

If you start off unemployed and Sunday League, it should take you 10-15 seasons of constant hard work to get to a Championship club, let alone something in the PL. Not many managers get their first big gig there. Howe is the youngest, but he's a very exceptional case, in that he took Bournemouth there.

 

Realism is an idea that sounds nice, but how many people would play a game like this? Realistically, you should be sacked every 2nd season after the slightest dip in form. FM is very forgiving. I was 6th for the majority of a title winning season, then won 13 in a row or something in a recent save. In reality, I'd be sacked well before that 13 in a row.

 

 

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