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Lucas_26_7

Is manager turnover too high amongst the big clubs on FM?

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This is a trend I have been noticing in FM for a while now, and it is the constant turnover of managers in the game. It seems like managers are always looking for a move away to a slightly bigger club as well as clubs sacking managers too frequently. As well as this, the game doesn't produce enough managers which means that they get stuck in an endless merry go round. I have tested this theory, using the Prem 'big 6'. In my current save - I am in October 2023 (managing in the Prem with Blackpool). This means that I have had five full seasons in my game, I will analyse the amount of managers from these clubs with the five years previous for each club.

 

Arsenal

In FM (2018/19-2022/23): Emery 18-20 (left for Barca), Ancelotti 20-21 (sacked), Klopp 21-22 (sacked), Luis Enrique 22-23 (left for Atletico at end of season)

IRL (2013/14-2017/18): Wenger 96-18 (resigned)

Result: 4-1

Chelsea

In FM (2018/19-2022/23): Sarri 18-23 (sacked), Emery 23-

IRL (2013/14-2017/18): Mourinho 13-15 (sacked), Hiddink 15-16 (contract not renewed), Conte 16-18 (sacked)

Result 2-3

Liverpool

In FM (2018/19-2022/23): Klopp 15-19 (left for Barcelona), Guardiola 19-21 (sacked), Zidane 21-21 (sacked), Tuchel 22-23 (sacked)

IRL (2013/14-2017/18): Rodgers 12-15 (sacked), Klopp 15-18

Result 4-2

Manchester City

In FM (2018/19-2022/23): Guardiola 16-19 (sacked), Conte 19-20 (sacked), Luis Enrique 20-22 (sacked), Allegri 22-23 (sacked), Conceicao 23-

IRL (2013/14-2017/18): Pellegrini 13-16 (contract not renewed), Guardiola 16-18

Result: 5-2

Manchester United

 

In FM (2018/19-2022/23): Solskjaer 18-19 (interim only), Pellegrini 19-23 (retired)

IRL (2013/14-2017/18): Moyes 13-14 (sacked), van Gaal 14-16 (sacked), Mourinho 16-18

Result 2-3

Tottenham Hotspur

In FM (2018/19-2022/23): Pochettino 14-19 (sacked), Zidane 19-21 (left for Liverpool), Valverde 21-22 (sacked), Jorge Jesus 23-

IRL (2013/14-2017/18): Villas-Boas 12-13 (sacked), Sherwood 13-14 (sacked), Pochettino 14-18

Result: 4-3

 

Final result:

21 managers were used in FM, 14 have coached in real life in the previous 5 years. Another thing worth noting is the higher amount of variation between managers in real life compared to in game, Mourinho is the only one at two seperate clubs in real life. On FM, Emery has been at Arsenal and Chelsea and so has Ancelotti, Klopp has managed Liverpool and Arsenal, Zidane with Liverpool and Tottenham, Conte City and Chelsea and Pellegrini both Manchester clubs. Not to mention a bunch of these guys have had stints at Barca. I have noticed this on FM for a while, do you agree?

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I don't manage up there in the rarified atmosphere of the Bigs so I have no personal experience but judging strictly from your posted data I'd say Yes But.  Your numbers are 21-14 which indicates a somewhat higher rate of turnover.  However, it's a very small sample.  If we could gather maybe a thousand or more examples and that trend held, then I'd say maybe you're on to something.

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It's interesting that this post shows up now because I've just started to notice this in my current save. I'm only starting my 4th season and Zidane have already managed Chelsea, City and Arsenal. It's a very small pool of managers that seem to just rotate around the big clubs. But I'm only 4 seasons in so I guess things will even out when real managers start to retire.

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This is indeed a known issue, already for several years imo. In addition, the reputation of a manager is too influential when AI controlled teams look for a new manager. Whilst in real life it is very common to see young managers getting a chance, the AI teams will most of the time go for the manager who has the highest CA/PA & reputation set and therefore often pick a more experienced & older manager. This is imo also the reason you get a very small pool of managers going from one big club to another. And as soon as the manager fails to deliver he is replaced with someone else. So if Man City for example, a team that obviously goes for the title, doesn't win the league and ends up in second place, the manager will get sacked most of the time. If you compare that to real life, if City would somehow finish second this season in I highly highly doubt they will immediately sack Pep. 

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I understand why the club would choose the manager but there needs to be some logic behind what makes the manager leave the existing club

IRL how many top managers at a top club leave mid season to join another top club? Reputations left in tatters

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Arsenal account for almost half the difference, and they're an outlier because of Wenger.  And while it's not exactly fair - FM 2019 does start in 2018, after all - Manchester United and Chelsea both changed managers after the 2019 season. 

What do your numbers look like if you expand the pool to include PSG, Atletico, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Juventus, Inter, AC Milan, Dortmund, Bayern and perhaps Napoli?  The top 10 or 15 clubs by reputation.  I'm going to guess it's still high turnover, but mostly driven by Team A sacking their manager after under-performing, and an internal merry-go-round starting.  And I wonder, too, if it's at all connected to the wage issue that gets brought up every now and then.  Players often report that their teams, especially big, rich teams, will not give them raises, no matter how high the reputation.  High managerial wages and buyouts would be one barrier to the chain reaction of managerial moves that can happen.

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given the number of them in the game they need to be a bit clever. I've seen managers leave a club yet to play the play-off final to join another club in the same league mid table

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Agree with this, it does get a bit daft. On my save Pep left City who were winning the league every season to go to Chelsea, who were in and out of the CL. Seemed daft. One of my main problems when having a long term game at the top level is nobody ever sticks around anywhere long to strike up a proper rivalry. You never get a Wenger to your Ferguson, because managers either move around too often or get harshly sacked for coming 2nd.

It happens lower down as well, particularly in the championship. You get a lot of managers leaving championship clubs for other seemingly very similar championship clubs. You'd expect to see people moving from smaller clubs in a league to bigger clubs for example swapping Luton for Derby, or moving up leagues, but for example moving from mid table Preston to mid table similar rep Wigan doesn't make much sense at all, yet it happens.

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I've often thought this. Managers rarely seem to stick around.

Something sort of related that I also noticed is lack of "single club" players. For instance (and speaking as a NUFC fan), someone like Paul Dummett is never likely to leave the club. He's local (a crucial aspect which doesn't seem to have much impact on FM), dependable and in the right CA range to be useful in the PL until at least his early 30s, yet in every save I've done on FM19 he gets shipped out within the first few transfer windows. But in reality, someone with his characteristics, tied into his locality, is going to be a bedrock kind of player who just sticks around forever. I rarely see that happening on the game. 

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I remember early this year in my journeyman save, in the beginning of the second season, Lopetegui was sacked from Real,and then the madness started.

I got my interview for the job,but at the end Klopp got it,leaving Liverpool open,then Ancelloti got Liverpool,leaving other job open,after this I gave up trying the big spots. Big managers in FM tend to leave their team quite easily.

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I personally agree with the statement put forth by the OP.  The rate with which managers are moving in my saves more often than not, make my head spin.  Managers leaving for another club that have the same rep as the one they were in makes me think that it's like changing 1.00 quid for 1.01 quid...

I also think the AI, with its inability to consider any context whatsoever, makes the rounds of firing way too high for no reason.  Here is an example I saw in a save recently.  Watford was called for15th or 16th in PL.  (It was about twenty years into the future and I can't remember any names)  In a matter of 2 or 3 weeks, right after the end of the first transfer window, the 3 main players were injured and for long term injuries (at least 6 weeks each, one of them was a torn ACL and the player was out for the season).  As you can imagine, the club, that was around 13th or 14th spot on the table at the time, started dropping.  The second it slipped into the relegation zone ZAP!  The manager was fired.  I was like: "WHOA!"  At the end of the season, they ended-up being relegated (2 or 3 points behind the 17th spot).  Again ZAP!  The manager was fired.  Curious, I went to check into the transfer history and saw that they only were able to get 2 loans in the Winter window but that was it.  Looking at the injury history, I saw that other than the main 3 players, they got plagued with a variety of injuries and more often than not, they were injuries of at least 3 weeks period...  I mean “freaky bad luck injury plague” here, not regular plague…  I scouted the reserve team and saw that not only they barely had enough players to make-up a squad, not one of those players was of a sufficient level to replace anybody in the main squad.  I couldn't get this out of my head recently when I was reading an article about Liverpool's last season.  I am absolutely and unequivocally convinced that if FM Klopp would have been given "Win the League" in the game, he would have been executed "American mafia movie style" if the results would have been exactly the same (i.e. numbers of points would have make him win the League over 80% of the time in the history of the League...)

Another factor in the merry-go-round of managers in teams is related to the AI expectations that, more often than not (I didn't say always), become completely bonkers way too fast, imo.  Again, in another save, actually, my most successful save ever.  I go to Aston Villa, I arrive at the end of a season and manage to save them from the drop.  On the fourth complete season that I am there, I pull a Leicester and win the League despite being called for mid-table.  Our wages at the time was around 13th or 14th bigger.  The next season, board expects Euro spot from the table!  I'm like:  "Whoa!"  I never saw that before, especially since I never overachieved in such a way...  Of course, I didn’t have the money to become a bigger spender but still… Euro or bust!  My guess is that since the managers in my saves, rarely stays at the same club more than 1 or 2 years, and that I see a lot of them getting fired (often very early in the next season), is the result of the AI expectations might have been bonkers the season after...

 

TLDR: AI's inability to put in any sort of context, regarding expectations, makes it that the number of managers fired is too high...

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is the AI Manager confirming to the board where the team will finish (as you the FM manager may be asked)  or possibly are the demands made by the AI board when offering contract to AI manager unreasonable?

One point to consider is that are managing sackings above average to give the human manager more opportunity

The key issue remains that AI Managers are making daft decisions to move clubs in certain situatuons

 

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Yup this has been discussed, and definitely needs some improvement.

 

On 27/08/2019 at 19:24, MrPompey said:

IRL how many top managers at a top club leave mid season to join another top club? Reputations left in tatters

Exactly.

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Yea this is one of the most unrealistic aspects of the game. In my save Klopp wins 2 league titles in a row with Liverpool then goes to City after Guardiola gets sacked. This is only because City's reputation is probably bigger which is another point as reputations of teams don't grow enough. Klopp would never go to city especially  after dominating with Liverpool. 

Zidane in my save has managed Man Utd, Chelsea, City and Liverpool all in the space of four years.

 

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