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Ali Dia

Building a team around a raumdeuter

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 I've had success with this tactic in an old juve save, being first in the league (Not sure how though; the defensive setup is so risky, I'm surprised that the team is tied for 1st in least goals conceded)

 tha.thumb.jpg.ab8520046ccf27a1968ccec83173cd09.jpg

I wanted to rebuild the team around a raumdeuter as the main goalscorer (as an experiment) , and so I came up with the following tactic

dacxa.thumb.jpg.bbe80521179e952ceabe46684ce60028.jpg

With this setup, am I getting the best out of the raumdeuter?

Edited by Ali Dia

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My first reaction is that you took it to the extreme and created a tactic singularly focused on one player. Everyone else is on support, which I guess could work, but I would prefer to give someone else a more aggressive attacking role to give the opposition something else to think about. Maybe that MEZ could be a MEZ(a).

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I have found it quite tough to really make that role work. I'm using one on my current save, and while FM role descriptions are often vague, in this case you can take the "quiet periods" part literally. The key is to have a few supporting roles plus one runner on the other side of the pitch and a decoy up front at central forward. Additionally, I prefer taller players with at least very good strength, this way they can also act as quasi wide target men. Remember, they usually go against an opposing full-back, the height advantage comes in handy with headers. Great off the ball and anticipation, good acceleration, finishing, decisions and concentration are must-have attributes.

I agree with the previous suggestion of giving the mezzala an attack duty and I'd also change the IF to W(s). The F9 is perfect for a system like this. WBIB and lower tempo are, on the other hand, not quite, beacause the enemy will have time to mark the RMD out of the game. My experience tells me the BBM does not work well with the RMD, as they will both attack the box. Something like a carrilero or BWM could be a better a idea (I use the latter). While my system is more possession-oriented, my guy scores most of his goals off quick crosses or through balls coming from my winger. Most of the time though, he's an extra body when we camp, providing space for the supporting wing-back and really useful at that.

Edited by Enzo_Francescoli

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I dont think Raumdeuter is a role you build a team around.

Id build teams around people who get on the ball constantly and make things happen.

The Raumdeuter role is just someone who gets on the end of things. For me, they never have much involvement in the buildup, and unless you create space for him, he doesnt offer much in attack either.

I think you risk making what would have been a good tactic unbalanced by playing too much to the Raumdeueter

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23 hours ago, Ali Dia said:

tha.thumb.jpg.ab8520046ccf27a1968ccec83173cd09.jpg

There are two things that immediately grabbed my attention in your first tactic are - it's extremely aggressive defense-wise with the left flank being particularly exposed. Also, you use unnecessarily too many instructions, with most of them tending to further complicate things (and some of them compounding the defensive risks). Which is all even more pronounced by playing on very high-risk mentality. 

 

23 hours ago, Ali Dia said:

dacxa.thumb.jpg.bbe80521179e952ceabe46684ce60028.jpg

This other tactic looks much better than the first one in terms of roles and duties as well as attacking-wise, but is still problematic when it comes to the defensive phase of play. The only tweak I would consider in relation to roles/duties is changing the mezzala's duty to attack, so that you would get some more penetration besides the RMD and thus make it harder for opposition defenses to deal with you in and around their box. However, the more attacking mezzala would probably require a bit more conservative fullback on that flank (for example, FB on support instead of WB on support).

Btw, is Pjanic defensively reliable enough to play as a lone DM (regardless of the role)?

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7 hours ago, Overmars said:

My first reaction is that you took it to the extreme and created a tactic singularly focused on one player. Everyone else is on support, which I guess could work, but I would prefer to give someone else a more aggressive attacking role to give the opposition something else to think about. Maybe that MEZ could be a MEZ(a).

Good suggestion, I'll apply it and see it turns out

3 hours ago, Enzo_Francescoli said:

I have found quite tough to really make that role work. I'm using one on my current save, and while FM role descriptions are often vague, in this case you can take the "quiet periods" part literally. The key is to have a few supporting roles plus one runner on the other side of the pitch and a decoy up front at central forward. Additionally, I prefer taller players with at least very good strength, this way they can also act as quasi wide target men. Remember, they usually go against an opposing full-back, the height advantage comes in handy with headers. Great off the ball and anticipation, good acceleration, finishing, decisions and concentration are must-have attributes.

I agree with the previous suggestion of giving the mezzala an attack duty and I'd also change the IF to W(s). The F9 is perfect for a system like this. WBIB and lower tempo are, on the other hand, not quite, beacause the enemy will have time to mark the RMD out of the game. My experience tells me the BBM does not work well with the RMD, as they will both attack the box. Something like a carrilero or BWM could be a better a idea (I use the latter). While my system is more possession-oriented, my guy scores most of his goals off quick crosses or through balls coming from my winger. Most of the time though, he's an extra body when we camp, providing space for the supporting wing-back and really useful at that.

So basically:

1)  overload one side to get the opposition to press and commit players there before switching the ball to RMD flank.

2)  Increase the tempo and get rid of WBIB

3)  have a more restrained midfield player role on the RMD side

Thanks for the advice.

1 hour ago, FMunderachiever said:

I dont think Raumdeuter is a role you build a team around.

Id build teams around people who get on the ball constantly and make things happen.

The Raumdeuter role is just someone who gets on the end of things. For me, they never have much involvement in the buildup, and unless you create space for him, he doesnt offer much in attack either.

I think you risk making what would have been a good tactic unbalanced by playing too much to the Raumdeueter

Yeah, I'm probably not getting the most out of CR7 using the RMD role. If i wanted him to score 25+ goals. I'll play him as a poacher/AF in a counter attacking/Wingplay system to maximize his goal output

 

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

There are two things that immediately grabbed my attention in your first tactic are - it's extremely aggressive defense-wise with the left flank being particularly exposed. Also, you use unnecessarily too many instructions, with most of them tending to further complicate things (and some of them compounding the defensive risks). Which is all even more pronounced by playing on very high-risk mentality. 

 

This other tactic looks much better than the first one in terms of roles and duties as well as attacking-wise, but is still problematic when it comes to the defensive phase of play. The only tweak I would consider in relation to roles/duties is changing the mezzala's duty to attack, so that you would get some more penetration besides the RMD and thus make it harder for opposition defenses to deal with you in and around their box. However, the more attacking mezzala would probably require a bit more conservative fullback on that flank (for example, FB on support instead of WB on support).

Btw, is Pjanic defensively reliable enough to play as a lone DM (regardless of the role)?

1) I know, that's why I was so surprised  that the team was somehow first in least in goals conceded.

2) Could you elaborate on the defensive phase problems

3) Pjanic is okay defensively. Honestly, Matuidi would have been perfect for the DM position if not for his player traits (Gets further forward, gets into opposition area)

Edited by Ali Dia

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8 minutes ago, Ali Dia said:

Could you elaborate on the defensive phase problems

Of course. First, your defensive (out-of-possession) instructions are still overly aggressive (as in the first tactic). You use a combination of extremely urgent pressing, hard tackling, tight marking and high DL, which is a recipe for disaster. Okay, this is somewhat mitigated by the fact that Juve is a top team (and by far the best in Italy), but nevertheless - there is no need for being so extreme. 

Then on the other hand, you did increase vertical compactness by the combo of higher DL and much lower LOE, but this creates another type of extremeness, as you are now allowing the opposition too much space both in their own half and behind your back-line, which will particularly benefit underdogs playing against you. So if you want to have better vertical compactness, a lot better combo would be higher DL and standard LOE. However, considering the very high reputation of your team, even this combo is likely to play into the hands of underdogs (and most of your opponents are clear underdogs when compared to Juve). Therefore, you need to take the whole context into account.

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This really is a role I struggle with, I'd love to be able to utilise it but I can never get it to "work" 

I've taken a break from my main save to start up a mess about save & thought I'd give the role another go

For me, I find the role hangs on the full-back rather than moves into the channel between the centre back & full back & the role has the hardcoded roam from position, I don't really see any roaming either

I tried a 4-2-3-1 for about a dozen games to try & give the RMD as much support as possible, varying mentalities from Standard to Attacking, passing, width & tempos. I tried to funnel the play down the left to free him up & while he'd chip in the only real supply he'd get would be a cross from the left back for him to poach at the far post. If he ever did make a darting run it would be very late on in a move & the ball would be at the striker's feet before he had a chance

Another popular option is to have a striker dropping deep to free up space whilst this works, I don't see the RMD taking advantage of it. I'll attach a few screenshots & you'll see what I mean.

I could be expecting too much, I could be misunderstanding the role, I don't know but a few ideas to try out would be cool as I'm running out of them

 

  

Bayern.png

Muller RMD 1.png

Muller RMD 2.png

Muller RMD 3.png

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Would there be a big difference between using a Raumdeuter, rather than a Poacher set to "stay wide" as a PI?

Id really like to see a player who makes an out to in run, but not from as wide a position as an IF

 

But ive never used Raumdeuter to any success either

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Like, right here, the ball's high up the pitch with Alaba looking to make a cross, you can see Muller's making a run but he's just running with the full-back. I can see at least two options for him to run into

Maye it's the ME's way of telling me to the LB's tight marking him, even though he hasn't so much as glanced at Muller during the move 

 

625665549_MullerRMD4.thumb.png.a830c1e3fc9d862b716f2d99ab823cc7.png  

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9 minutes ago, FMunderachiever said:

Would there be a big difference between using a Raumdeuter, rather than a Poacher set to "stay wide" as a PI?

Id really like to see a player who makes an out to in run, but not from as wide a position as an IF

 

But ive never used Raumdeuter to any success either

It's worth looking at for sure, look at the start of this move, sit narrower, look how narrow he is compared to the RB, about half a yard. Get further forward, he's further forward compared to the LW(S) but a good 15 yards behind the DLF(S).

1206256463_MullerRMD5.thumb.png.00a20c0e9691c257b58853b985193aab.png

 

 

That move Alaba plays forward to no. 7 Thiago who runs with the ball into the no. 10 position , it's a lot to ask but Muller's deep & wide the whole move .

 

1760360623_MullerRMD6.thumb.png.4fe16ec8a1f57f60c0cac736fc647f3f.png

 

Alaba's gotten forward, Lewandowski's dropped deep, the BBM & Winger are getting forward to support. I can watch other roles & see them perform as expected but the space interpreter baffles me :D   

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3 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Bayern.png

 

3 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

I could be expecting too much, I could be misunderstanding the role, I don't know but a few ideas to try out would be cool as I'm running out of them

I haven't used a RMD in FM19 so far, but based on my tactical knowledge, I would try something like this:

DLFsu

IFsu                                      RMD

CAR       RPM

A/HB

FBat/WBat     CD       CD     FB/WBsu

SKsu

As you can see, I put the playmaker behind the RMD and changed his role into RPM to encourage more fluid play (though AP can also work). AML is changed from winger to iF on support, so he should feed the RMD with diagonal through balls from the left, whereas the attacking LB is supposed to provided crosses. That way your supply of potential assists for the RMD is more diversified, as he can now be fed with balls from a number of different areas of the pitch.

However, besides roles and duties, there are also instructions that need to be set up in a proper way. I think that as Bayern you would be better off with a style of play that is more oriented toward controlling possession. Therefore, instead of passing into space (which in most cases is unlikely to be effective when you are a top team) and direct passing (again for the reason of being a top team), I would suggest:

- play out of defence, be more expressive, work ball into box as three primary in-possession instructions (tweaks would be then made when and if needed)

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

I haven't used a RMD in FM19 so far, but based on my tactical knowledge, I would try something like this:

DLFsu

IFsu                                      RMD

CAR       RPM

A/HB

FBat/WBat     CD       CD     FB/WBsu

SKsu

As you can see, I put the playmaker behind the RMD and changed his role into RPM to encourage more fluid play (though AP can also work). AML is changed from winger to iF on support, so he should feed the RMD with diagonal through balls from the left, whereas the attacking LB is supposed to provided crosses. That way your supply of potential assists for the RMD is more diversified, as he can now be fed with balls from a number of different areas of the pitch.

However, besides roles and duties, there are also instructions that need to be set up in a proper way. I think that as Bayern you would be better off with a style of play that is more oriented toward controlling possession. Therefore, instead of passing into space (which in most cases is unlikely to be effective when you are a top team) and direct passing (again for the reason of being a top team), I would suggest:

- play out of defence, be more expressive, work ball into box as three primary in-possession instructions (tweaks would be then made when and if needed)

 

 

I'll give that a tinker, cheers ED. CAR & RPM are two roles I've never really used  

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12 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

CAR & RPM are two roles I've never really used

Don't use them if you don't have the right player(s). This was just an idea (example) to help you better understand some aspects of tactical creation. Though I guess that at Bayern you should have suitable players for both roles.

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Tolisso & Thiago are both capable, not the best fit but more than capable, I decided to sim the season & leave the ass man to it

Muller did fantastically well, you're on to a winner their ED. Most of his goals came from crosses from the left or poaching in the box after a scramble 

I've never used be more expressive either, certainly brings a bit of swagger to play

Muller.thumb.png.6ebad1a442b308422c5a3b495ae6cb3a.png 

 

21 in 34 in the league, that's his highest ever return 

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I was messing around today in my test save with a RMD tactic & came up with this:

RMD.thumb.png.dbb511b56b4f7522f1cfba88b46bccc4.png

 

It worked well so thought I'd take it to my main save to try out for a game. To put some context on it Schalke were 2nd, breathing down my neck with one loss so far, they (surprisingly) came to the Allianz Arena with a defensive, narrow formation

I tonked them 5-0, it could've been 8,  the F9 scored twice & the RMD scored two & got an assist. Castro isn't a RMD, he has winger type traits

5-0.thumb.png.619ceeac6576430692bc0ffa6702f68e.png

 

 

 

 

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@Experienced Defender@Johnny Ace

 

I know this isnt strictly a part of the Raumdeuter topic, but im wondering.

Johnny Ace, you said you rarely use the carrilero position.

Im wondering, if you partnered a raumdeuter down one side, with a carrilero, but told the carrilero to get further forward and close down more as a PI, could you possibly build a hybrid "responsible" mezzala who can drift out wide to support the out to in run of the raumdeuter, whilst being defensively more responsible to cover for him out of possession, given that the description says the raumdeuter does little defensively?

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Yeah pal, I never really use it nor the mezzela & a bunch of other roles, IWB, Tre & F9 are only recent roles I've been using & they've been awesome

The Carrilero role does look interesting & is very customisable looking at it, the only thing hardcoded is the stay wider & Freedom of movement instructions, you could give a try or I can when on my test save tomorrow. 

My thinking above was have the FB(S) support on the flank & the BBM support centrally but I can see a CAR with those added instructions support the RMD wider, then you could have an IWB support centrally & really cause some trouble 

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I had success with Dortmund, making Reus the most dangerous and impactful player as a Raumdeuter. But i didn't build the team around him, i just decided he would be the main-outlet for scoring. I focussed on very clean posession-football, lots of movement from my players and then as the breakthrough-clue a really heavy overload on the left Raumdeuter-side with Guerreiro as a CWB(a). So its defo possible and roughly looking at your setup you're not far away, but an effective Raumdeuter needs a very solid and versatile tactic around him to allow him to roam in space as he does.

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39 minutes ago, Nikopol said:

I had success with Dortmund, making Reus the most dangerous and impactful player as a Raumdeuter. But i didn't build the team around him, i just decided he would be the main-outlet for scoring. I focussed on very clean posession-football, lots of movement from my players and then as the breakthrough-clue a really heavy overload on the left Raumdeuter-side with Guerreiro as a CWB(a). So its defo possible and roughly looking at your setup you're not far away, but an effective Raumdeuter needs a very solid and versatile tactic around him to allow him to roam in space as he does.

Does overloading the raumdeuter side not congest his space on that side?

Conversely, does overloading the opposite side leave the raumdeuter too isolated to operate on his side?

Just querying as its a role i dont use at all

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vor 15 Minuten schrieb FMunderachiever:

Does overloading the raumdeuter side not congest his space on that side?

Conversely, does overloading the opposite side leave the raumdeuter too isolated to operate on his side?

Just querying as its a role i dont use at all

In my experience: no,

Reus with his right foot is oriented towards the goal and operates in the half space. My playmaker (my formation was asymmetrical) was an om in the left half space on support, but the focus of ball retention was on the right side of the field. The breakthrough ocurred on the right side, with my om playing killer balls to my raumdeuter, my left wing back breaking through on the left flank feeding reus balls and my dlf(s) holding up the bal for him. Essentially there was a triangle of players who had the intention to feed the ball to my raumdeuter, while build up until the final third was centered on the opposite side of the field. So the overload on the left moved into effect when we approached the box.

The latter, in my experience, occurs. An isolated raumdeuter, opposed to one's expectation as him essentially being undercover and then doing that decisive run, is just that: isolated and will lose the ball quite often when he does get posession early. A winger with attack duty seems to me to be a more efficient finisher if play is centered on opposite flank, as he will stay in the more easy space, meaning far out, and when he doesnt win his 1o1 he can give it back to the full-back, or hit a cross etc.

Only my experience though

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Just mullered Leverkusen 5-0 away with that tactic only 2 assists from the RMD. I'd have been happy with a point from the game so tried it again, it works for me so it's nice to have in the tactical arsenal :D

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When I utilize this role it’s usually for spells within a game rather than entirety due to potential defensive woes. Also, it feels like a flash in pan / executing in critical moments type role. In other words the player may be quiet and offer very little for large swaths of game; only to find right gap at right time. 

I might suggest (as other have mentioned) replacing BBM with Car to provide more structure to left flank, while also giving RDM more available space to work with. You could also tinker with F9, utilizing DLF to again leave more space between the lines. In doing that, I might suggest DLFs / IFa in the corresponding right flank. 

Edited by s0ni42

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zTZUISI.png

This is the RMD setup I'm using currently.

Basically, the idea is to overload left side of the pitch in order to create space for RMD on the right. IWB can be huge for that, as he forces the opposition to shift to his side and leave the RMD alone with his FB. The RMD being good aerially also helps immensely, since it gives him a huge advantage when competing for back-post crosses against FBs, who often lack aerial presence.

wRcN4uH.png

He is my top scorer so far.

UkpPYIv.png

p9GsSvb.png

Edited by Zemahh

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