Making a 4-4-2 work

[lferreira]

So, I've signed with Derby after taking Bury to promotion and what I found was an overaged squad and a team heavily in debt. I managed to balance the finances whilst selling some of my best players, but I've got enough depth in all positions.

I had to achieve a mid-table finish, which I did, and with a few games to go on the season and a winningless streak of 8 games, I want to try something different and make a 4-4-2 work. The problem is my squad is below average or average in almost everything in comparison with the league.

What I thought:

                         SK-Su

FB-At --- CD-De --- CD-De --- FB-Su

IW-Su ---- DLP-De --- CM-Su --- W-At

                  AF-At ----- PF-Su

The idea is to play counter-attacking football, so mentality would be balanced with a standard D-Line and a lower line of engagement. Pressing would be more urgent with get stuck in so I'm not too passive when defending and I believe passing/tempo should be on standard for now.

My issues after playing two gams with it:

- I'm too used to playing with a DM, so I have some space issues between my back four and central midfield areas. The CM-De seems to cover that space a little but my CM-Su is too often caught napping or taking a while longer to react - I have him on roam from position to attack as a quasi-playmaker but he's been getting poor ratings.

- Is this something that will work if my strikers aren't so good in the air? I set the team to try low crosses but I'm not too satisfied. Can a partnership of two DLF or two PF work up top? I also thought about trying two advanced forwards and changing my wingers to inside forwards on attack with full backs on support, then I would have a DLP-De and a BBM or CM-Su.

- I noticed I've been conceding too much from long shots, can a stopper/cover setup reduce that problem?

- Should I counter-press or regroup with that setting? I've tried both, but it seems they have a lot of space to run into. I end up conceding from diagonal spaces into the far post for a tap-in from their winger/IF.

- We have trouble keeping the ball and we tend to keep passing it short with a man free on the other side, but he's too isolated (often the winger on attack). 

Any help would be appreciated.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, lferreira said:

SK-Su

FB-At --- CD-De --- CD-De --- FB-Su

IW-Su ---- DLP-De --- CM-Su --- W-At

                  AF-At ----- PF-Su

This setup looks okay in and of itself. The question is whether it suits your team. And taking into account this: 

4 hours ago, lferreira said:

The problem is my squad is below average or average in almost everything in comparison with the league

I would assume it does not. 

I don't know your players, but I guess your defense is not good enough to play without a direct screen in the form of a DM (position, not role). Maybe even two.

Or if you insist on the 442 formation, then you will likely need to make it more conservative (i.e. defensively solid).

Playing counter-attacking football is a good idea if you are an underdog with fast strikers (and preferably also wingers). In that case you can even play with both strikers on attack duty, but not in the same role. Combinations that can work - depending on the type of your strikers - include:

- DLFat / PO

- DLFat / AF

- CFat / PO

- CFat / TMat

- TMat / PO

- TMat / AF

- TMat / PFat

- CFat / PFat

- AF / PO

- TQ / PO

- TQ / PFat

- TQ / AF

- TQ / TMat

Though I assume that you don't have a player that is good enough to play as a TQ.

[lferreira]

My alternative was going with a 4-1-4-1 DM Wide. I have more knowledge of that formation when playing possession/positive football though. How can I make it more defensively solid?

Off the top of my head I thought:

                         SK-De

FB-Su ---- BPD-De --- CD-De --- FB-Su

                    A/DM/HB - De

                BWM- Su---AP-At

IF- At-------------------------------------W-At

                          AF - At

Standard mentality and everything else, hit early crosses. Transition settings: Regroup, Counter, Distribute to flanks. Standard D-Line, Lower Line of Engagement. Haven't tried this in game yet, but it doesn't sound too bad. I'm just afraid the AF might be too isolated, but I also expect the team to pass more directly and have him use his pace a little more with space to run onto.

Oh, and how would I make that 4-4-2 setup more conservative? Btw, both my strikers can play the trequartista role according to suitability, but I'm guessing they don't have enough stats/flair though. I've got a guy that I signed for 1.5 million who's playing for the U-19 England squad and he seems quite promising.

I guess the main problem is the players and the disparity in the level of competition. I'm spending 275k on wages per week. The sixth placed team on the table is on 700k, and Huddersfield is on nearly a million. Despite that, I'm not too used to finishing 16th-17th in this game, so I guess that has made me a little restless as a manager. Maybe I'm messing too much with the formation in an attempt to end our poor streak of results.

[Experienced Defender]

14 hours ago, lferreira said:

Off the top of my head I thought:

                         SK-De

FB-Su ---- BPD-De --- CD-De --- FB-Su

                    A/DM/HB - De

                BWM- Su---AP-At

IF- At-------------------------------------W-At

                          AF - At

 

14 hours ago, lferreira said:

How can I make it more defensively solid?

The above setup does not look quite solid defensively with 4 players - including both wide forwards - on attack duty, especially considering the relatively low quality of your team. 

Btw, AP on attack can be very useful in a counter-attacking system, but do you have a 'player with necessary attributes - both technical and mental - to perform the role effectively? 

14 hours ago, lferreira said:

Standard mentality and everything else, hit early crosses

Standard (i.e. Balanced) mentality and early crosses are okay, but what do you mean by "everything else"? 

 

14 hours ago, lferreira said:

Transition settings: Regroup, Counter, Distribute to flanks. Standard D-Line, Lower Line of Engagement

These TIs make sense for counter-attacking football. The only one I would remove is Distribute to flanks. Let the keeper pick the option he sees as optimal in any given situation.

Optional defensive instructions that you may add if you notice that your team is too passive when defending - get stuck in or/and use tighter marking. Defensive instructions are generally the most tricky to set up, because the optimal setup depends on the (defensive) strengths and weaknesses of your players (not only defenders). So you need to watch the match and make small gradual tweaks until you are satisfied with how the team behaves in the defensive phase. 

14 hours ago, lferreira said:

both my strikers can play the trequartista role according to suitability, but I'm guessing they don't have enough stats/flair though

Ignore what the game suggests as a player's more or less suitable roles. Look primarily at attributes, then his player traits and in some cases even footedness. Each role requires a certain set of attributes. And TQ is one of the most demanding roles in terms of mentals and technical skill. 

 

14 hours ago, lferreira said:

and how would I make that 4-4-2 setup more conservative?

This is your original 442 setup from the opening post: 

 

22 hours ago, lferreira said:

SK-Su

FB-At --- CD-De --- CD-De --- FB-Su

IW-Su ---- DLP-De --- CM-Su --- W-At

                  AF-At ----- PF-Su

A more conservative version could be this:

PFsu      AF

 

Wat         CMde       DLPsu        IWsu

 

FBsu       CDde      CDde       WB/FBsu

SKde

And if you want a purely counter-attacking setup, put both strikers on attack duty with one of the role combinations that I listed in my previous post (see which particular combo suits your strikers best).

[lferreira]

50 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

The above setup does not look quite solid defensively with 4 players - including both wide forwards - on attack duty, especially considering the relatively low quality of your team. 

Btw, AP on attack can be very useful in a counter-attacking system, but do you have a 'player with necessary attributes - both technical and mental - to perform the role effectively? 

Standard (i.e. Balanced) mentality and early crosses are okay, but what do you mean by "everything else"? 

 

These TIs make sense for counter-attacking football. The only one I would remove is Distribute to flanks. Let the keeper pick the option he sees as optimal in any given situation.

Optional defensive instructions that you may add if you notice that your team is too passive when defending - get stuck in or/and use tighter marking. Defensive instructions are generally the most tricky to set up, because the optimal setup depends on the (defensive) strengths and weaknesses of your players (not only defenders). So you need to watch the match and make small gradual tweaks until you are satisfied with how the team behaves in the defensive phase. 

Ignore what the game suggests as a player's more or less suitable roles. Look primarily at attributes, then his player traits and in some cases even footedness. Each role requires a certain set of attributes. And TQ is one of the most demanding roles in terms of mentals and technical skill. 

 

This is your original 442 setup from the opening post: 

 

A more conservative version could be this:

PFsu      AF

 

Wat         CMde       DLPsu        IWsu

 

FBsu       CDde      CDde       WB/FBsu

SKde

And if you want a purely counter-attacking setup, put both strikers on attack duty with one of the role combinations that I listed in my previous post (see which particular combo suits your strikers best).

About the 4-1-2-3 I've made the changes after noticing some flaws in the game, so my IF is on support with a WB-Su and on the other side I have a WB-Su with a Winger on Attack. Anchorman vs 4-2-3-1 or HB vs 4-4-2, and a BWM next to the AP to challenge their inside forwards (I normally put him on the same side as an opposing inside forward, if they're playing wingers I remove narrow defending).

However, I've reverted to Cautious, and I noticed that the attacking wingers still track back more often and the WBs on support just provide deeper width and overlap very rarely. It worked well, and I managed to beat Villa 3-0 having more than 25 shots, over 10 on target and 4-5 clear cut chances. 

I might change the AP to CM-At next to a winger on support and have the IF on attack next to the BWM on support. It looked like this:

                          Sk-Su

WB-Su-----CD-De-CD-De-----WB-Su

---------------------A/HB-------------------

W-At ------AP-Su----BWM-Su----IF-At

                         AF-At

Cautious mentality, more direct passing, higher tempo, hit early crosses, standard D-Line and Lower/Standard LOE, counter-press, wingers and AF told to press more, BWM will also press more due to his role. 

When I said everything else was on standard I meant I only changed passing settings, tempo and hit early crosses. Btw, the AP is a loanee from City and he's been playing quite well on the role. Luka Ilic, most of his stats are between 11-14, he's got good passing, vision, composure and decisions, 12 for long shots and dribbling, also good in the air for a midfielder and decent pace/balance/acceleration (all between 12-14). Not too shabby, not that great, but he's the star I guess.

I'll try the 4-4-2 with that setup but with two strikers on attack, I'm thinking PF-At + AF-At. Just managing to beat the streak of 10 games without winning was quite relieving though.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, lferreira said:

I'm thinking PF-At + AF-At

Not sure how this combo would work, because the 2 roles are pretty similar. PF on attack is essentially a sort of "deeper" version of AF. That's why I didn't list it in my post.

Btw, I fear you won't help the team stabilize by constantly changing formations and/or making other big changes to the tactic.

[lferreira]

Yeah I agree, I'll stick to the 4-1-2-3 and build around that. My reputation as a team is quite low and most teams play positive against me, so if I get this counter-attacking tactic I'm gonna have a field day, hopefully.