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8 ore fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto:

I mean, insta-win isn't the same thing as saying formation that works better.

Knap's formations work much better than others...

And looking at what people post on FB groups, there are at least a couple of borderline game-breaking tactics around. They may be the result of weeks/months of exploit-hunting (especially if they include infamously broken set-pieces routines) and not be just stuff random players stumbled across (like last year's 3 Strikers), but they DO exist.

8 ore fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto:

But there's never been an actual insta-win formation as such. Because even in such a formation garbage in = garbage out, even with the strikerless back in FM17 (not 16 or 18 as has been suggested)

Others have already brought the infamous Diablo one from CM03-04... Ages ago, yes, but nonetheless...

8 ore fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto:

If you're still needing to get the right combinations of roles and duties in said formation, its not an insta-win, or formation working much better by any means :brock:

Again, the ME simply doesn't handle some positions/roles as well as others.

So it's much easier to get the right (or a decent enough) combination of roles for a flat 4-4-2 than for a 3-4-3 due to 3-man defending being implemented rather poorly..

And BTW I'm not even talking about "I want this formation to win me games 4-0 week in and week out"! I'm simply stating that depending on which kind of football we're trying to create, it can become a long, frustrating and unrewarding experience because the ME simply works better with some formations and styles. And good luck if you decide to give a go to one of the "sorry, can't do it" styles...

P.S. I'm not saying it's impossible (actually on the Tactics forum I've seen a decent variety of formations and styles), but that it takes way too long to get something "unfavoured" by the ME to work, while other ideas require so much less effort.
So yes, everything can work in the end, especially if you spice it up with a bit of "cheating". However, a basic degree of tactical reliability shouldn't require hours of painstaking fine-tuning to get a straightforward hoofball to work.

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Does it not alreayd change when some hidden atributes change? Does this mean then those atr could change rappitly?

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The best way to play the game is don’t go online looking for information!

If you want it to be a challenge discover your own tactics. There will always be people that find a tactic/formation that is OP for the ME AI. It’s practically impossible i’d wager for there not to be an ‘exploit’.

The only way to combat it is DO NOT GO LOOKING FOR IT.

I stopped looking at wonderkid lists last year, as with tactics, and it makes playing the game so much more rewarding.

There will always be tactics that work better than others (as in reality) 442 this year is very strong in fm19. Fm20 will have another formation that is very strong. As long as you discover it for yourself and don’t just download a P&P tactic I don’t see the problem.

Edited by sidslayer

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9 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

The best way to play the game is don’t go online looking for information!

If you want it to be a challenge discover your own tactics. There will always be people that find a tactic/formation that is OP for the ME AI. It’s practically impossible i’d wager for there not to be an ‘exploit’.

The only way to combat it is DO NOT GO LOOKING FOR IT.

I stopped looking at wonderkid lists last year, as with tactics, and it makes playing the game so much more rewarding.

There will always be tactics that work better than others (as in reality) 442 this year is very strong in fm19. Fm20 will have another formation that is very strong. As long as you discover it for yourself and don’t just download a P&P tactic I don’t see the problem.

To be honest, put more simply, the best way to enjoy the game is probably just to never visit any sort of site like this.  Ever.

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1 час назад, forameuss сказал:

To be honest, put more simply, the best way to enjoy the game is probably just to never visit any sort of site like this.  Ever.

Eh, I got tons of useful tactical advice when I couldn't even build my team right. Reading complints for the sake of complaining is another thing tho

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21 hours ago, Novem9 said:

Yeah club vision! I wrote about this thing in past! :rolleyes: So happy to see this!

Well I hope you can adjust the vision like, for smaller clubs in the first division, like Freiburg, so that the vision is "stay in the league midfield and just be happy to be there" and prevent that the board wants european football regularly at once after a successful season when you finished 4th with them.

Edited by Carambau

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6 minutes ago, PaulfromSCB said:

Eh, I got tons of useful tactical advice when I couldn't even build my team right. Reading complints for the sake of complaining is another thing tho

I don't doubt there's plenty good here.  It's more a comment that if you had no idea this place existed, then you're likely going to have a far more blissful experience with the game.  If enough people tell you that something is rubbish, then it's only natural that, at least subsconsciously in your mind, you're going to sit there thinking "is it?"  The answers almost always no, but if you never visited here you'd never be exposed to thinking that.  You form your own opinion, unbiased by everything else.  May well still end up coming to the same conclusion, but at least it's of your own accord.

So I'd amend my original post.  I'd avoid this particular board like the plague, particularly around beta/release, when it becomes a big echo chamber of people sniping angrily at each other.  The rest of the boards - tactics, FMCU etc - are generally fine.

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3 minutes ago, Carambau said:

Well I hope you can adjust the vision like, for smaller clubs in the first division, like Freiburg, so that the vision is "stay in the league midfield and just be happy to be there" and prevent that the board wants european football regularly at once after a successful season when you finished 4th with them.

Certainly sounds like it based on this from the feature blog:

Quote

You will be able to negotiate your club vision at the end of the season or when you take a new job. During these meetings, the board will lay out the current the club culture, ongoing and five year plan objectives before moving on to the negotiation stage of the meeting.

You’re able to suggest bringing objectives in your five year plan forward or pushing back by a season or two, depending on how your team is progressing towards the club’s overall vision. You can also suggest changing the objectives themselves. Let’s say you’ve been tasked with winning silverware in the next three years. You could negotiate with the board to remove this objective but you’ll need to offer something in return, such as qualifying for Europe one season earlier than expected or delivering a large increase to the club’s commercial revenue. However, if you then fail to achieve them in that time-frame you could find yourself in hot water with the board.

As part of these meetings you can also adjust your season expectations, including the option to ask the board to not judge you on a certain competition. This could be particularly useful if you’re doing well in the league and want to sacrifice your performances in a cup competition to give you the best chance of achieving a good finishing position in the league. The board may however expect more from you in the remaining competitions.

Your club’s visions are dynamic and will change as you progress through the game. Achieving a period of sustained success and hitting your objectives early may lead to the board setting more ambitious targets over the following seasons. You’ll also be given new objectives when you join a new club that are contextualised to that club’s culture and position within the footballing world. This helps to keep long-term saves feeling fresh and ensures you will be challenged wherever you decide to move next.

Seems to be linked to the ambition attribute of the chairman (maybe the whole board, not sure). I'd imagine how well liked/successful you are will impact how much sway you hold in these negotiations.

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2 minutes ago, gunner86 said:

Certainly sounds like it based on this from the feature blog:

Seems to be linked to the ambition attribute of the chairman (maybe the whole board, not sure). I'd imagine how well liked/successful you are will impact how much sway you hold in these negotiations.

Achieving a period of sustained success and hitting your objectives early may lead to the board setting more ambitious targets over the following seasons. 

Yeah that worries me a bit. Lets hope there are chairmen like in real life who are ok with the club just being there with the big boys and enjoying the ride, even after a very good season with a good final position like 4th. (Again, like Freiburgs board)

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3 minutes ago, Carambau said:

Achieving a period of sustained success and hitting your objectives early may lead to the board setting more ambitious targets over the following seasons. 

Yeah that worries me a bit. Lets hope there are chairmen like in real life who are ok with the club just being there with the big boys and enjoying the ride, even after a very good season with a good final position like 4th. (Again, like Freiburgs board)

Absolutely agree with you. ANd I think we've all had it happen, finish 6th one season and all of a sudeen the board want Champions League football.

I think the key for me in the statement is sustained success. I imagine (and hope) that this would mean one good season should result primarily in the aim being consolidation i.e. something along the lines of "You finished 6th last year, more of the same please".

Granted, there will be boards/chairmen (most likely the sugar daddy types will fall into this, but others as well) that will want you to keep building year on year. The hope would be that out of the box there will be a semblance of balance to it.

For me, I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt until I can use it myself, and if it seems off, there will be feedback. But bearing in mind a lot of the new features are more than one production cycle, I can't see how the guys at SI Towers won't have had this tested to a point where it's not good to go.

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2 ore fa, sidslayer ha scritto:

The best way to play the game is don’t go online looking for information!

If you want it to be a challenge discover your own tactics. There will always be people that find a tactic/formation that is OP for the ME AI. It’s practically impossible i’d wager for there not to be an ‘exploit’.

The only way to combat it is DO NOT GO LOOKING FOR IT.

I stopped looking at wonderkid lists last year, as with tactics, and it makes playing the game so much more rewarding.

There will always be tactics that work better than others (as in reality) 442 this year is very strong in fm19. Fm20 will have another formation that is very strong. As long as you discover it for yourself and don’t just download a P&P tactic I don’t see the problem.

That's not the point!

I don't want a "challenge" because 3-4-3 is a nightmare to implement even in a half-decent way, while my grandmother could probably set a decent 4-4-2 up!

I want a challenge because EVERY formation and style has its pros and cons and an acceptable version of every formation can be reasonably easy to create and the ME will play it out decently (then, if I pick the wrong players for that type of tactics, or choose it against the wrong opponent, I MUST get my ass handed to me because of that...).

But the core of the matter should be: is this formation/style a good fit for my team, status and league? Not: is this one of the formations/styles the ME can replicate?

Your scenario is predicated on people looking for advice or for P&P tactics because they want to win. More often than not, it's people looking for advice when a formation should result in X, Y and Z on the pitch, but the ME returns A, B and C because of "things"...

About "discovering it yourself", imagine you're playing a RPG and after hours upon hours of frustrating struggles and deaths against sewer rats or low-level goblins, it turns out your race/class/weapon of choice isn't really working out because the game's dynamics favour, say, ranged attacks instead of melee weapons, or half-elves rogues instead of human paladins.
Whether you decide to soldier on or to start over with the more favourable setup, it's still a huge DISSERVICE and a crappy situation.

The game should be challenging but fair based on INFORMED CHOICES, not on random quirks or coded bias.

I accept I may struggle to set up a very specific and/or complex formation (say, Zeman's 4-3-3) as opposed to something more straightforward. I can't accept the game can't handle one style while others work so smoothly even a noob may feel like he's Rashidi...

Edited by RBKalle

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46 минут назад, Carambau сказал:

Well I hope you can adjust the vision like, for smaller clubs in the first division, like Freiburg, so that the vision is "stay in the league midfield and just be happy to be there" and prevent that the board wants european football regularly at once after a successful season when you finished 4th with them.

As I remember this mechanic works fine. For example I promoted Novara in Serie A, where I finished in place for eurocups, but in next season I still choose medium position (or even lower).

Board change predictions for better if you have squad/budget I mean. It could be board prediction just like to play 'worthily' in next season, if your previous was a kind of miracle and no resource (players/budget) to objective repeat this result again.

 

But if you have few talented players which improved their skills and you buy few strong players for sure board will want to better results

Edited by Novem9

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For me it didn´t, in quite a few saves, also in past FMs, it always occured to me again, that after finished like 2nd or 3rd with a club which was not expected to do so in the first division, the board immediately wanted european qualification again next year even if the club was expected to finish 17th bythe media. And I didn´t buy way better players either for the new season. So no, for me it didnt work fine, sadly.

I really hope its different in FM20.

Edited by Carambau

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18 минут назад, RBKalle сказал:

I want a challenge because EVERY formation and style has its pros and cons and an acceptable version of every formation can be reasonably easy to create and the ME will play it out decently (then, if I pick the wrong players for that type of tactics, or choose it against the wrong opponent, I MUST get my ass handed to me because of that...).

 

Agree, for now we have limited options for EFFECTIVE tactics. For sure football has trends and limitations, but I guess who wants he will understand what I mean. More freedom in tactical sandbox is very important for us and for AI too.

I want see the same in mentality. I really disappointed about powerful attacking mentality in last two years. In fact I hope SI will remove mentality in future like they disable/change shape in FM19

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1 минуту назад, Carambau сказал:

For me it didn´t, in quite a few saves, also in past FMs, it always occured to me again, that after finished like 2nd or 3rd with a club which was not expected to do so in the first division, the board immediately wanted european qualification again next year even if the club was expected to finish 17th bythe media. So no, for me it didnt work fine, sadly.

I really hope its different in FM20.

No reason to doubt in your case :) + a lot of factors could be there.

But yes, I hope too this vision could give us unique experience and situations for every save and keep logic in process

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29 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

That's not the point!

I don't want a "challenge" because 3-4-3 is a nightmare to implement even in a half-decent way, while my grandmother could probably set a decent 4-4-2 up!

I want a challenge because EVERY formation and style has its pros and cons and an acceptable version of every formation can be reasonably easy to create and the ME will play it out decently (then, if I pick the wrong players for that type of tactics, or choose it against the wrong opponent, I MUST get my ass handed to me because of that...).

But the core of the matter should be: is this formation/style a good fit for my team, status and league? Not: is this one of the formations/styles the ME can replicate?

Your scenario is predicated on people looking for advice or for P&P tactics because they want to win. More often than not, it's people looking for advice when a formation should result in X, Y and Z on the pitch, but the ME returns A, B and C because of "things"...

About "discovering it yourself", imagine you're playing a RPG and after hours upon hours of frustrating struggles and deaths against sewer rats or low-level goblins, it turns out your race/class/weapon of choice isn't really working out because the game's dynamics favour, say, ranged attacks instead of melee weapons, or half-elves rogues instead of human paladins.
Whether you decide to soldier on or to start over with the more favourable setup, it's still a huge DISSERVICE and a crappy situation.

The game should be challenging but fair based on INFORMED CHOICES, not on random quirks or coded bias.

I accept I may struggle to set up a very specific and/or complex formation (say, Zeman's 4-3-3) as opposed to something more straightforward. I can't accept the game can't handle one style while others work so smoothly even a noob may feel like he's Rashidi...

Your first point: It does. Just some formations are stronger in FM19 than others = like reality. I’ve got many formations and tactics to work in fm19. Yes 442 is strong but so is 352, 4141 ...

Your point about RPG: I agree with you. I should be able to defeat sewer rats with any race/ability I choose. I refer you to my first answer of your first point.

You make it seem that in order to perform well (or win) requires you to only play one particular tactic/formation/style. 

That’s simply not true.

The game isn’t perfect. The ME has quirks. Give me a game with this amount of coding and detail that doesn’t. Everyone knows bows are seriously OP in Skyrim!

Doesn’t mean you have to use them and it certainly doesn’t mean you can’t compete without them.

Your last point: who? And why does playing a particular style that isn’t working for you such a big deal? If you really want to make it work but the ME won’t let you then either give it longer or move on.

Edit*

I forgot to say: Going online for advice as to why something isn’t working is fine, I’m sure every manager in the world has someone they can call to ask for advice, but the bottom line is that it’s hugely more rewarding not knowing what tactics/formations are ‘broken’ every year on FM. 

It’s a game. A simulation. Not the actual thing.

I realised 442 was really strong this year. I’ve enjoyed battering my brother with it all year :) I’ve literally only just found out it is a ‘broken’ formation since coming to this site right now. And there I was thinking I was a tactical genius!

Ive had a wonderful year ... avoiding the internet.

Edited by sidslayer

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38 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

while my grandmother could probably set a decent 4-4-2 up

Please do ask her to visit the Tactics forum then as there are plenty of people there struggling with the 442.

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Simply don´t play it then if it causes in you the urge to rant about it so much on an internet forum? I wouldve quit by then already if I felt like that, to simply save me energy for other things in life. But then again I am enjoying the game despite its´obvious flaws..

Edited by Carambau

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24 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

But in reality the strength/weakness of a formation depends mostly on:

a) how it compliments the players' skills (no use to play a cross-based game if your strikers are 5"6, or to play tiki-taka with banana-footed defensive midfielders)
b) how it works against the opposition's tactics and players

Some formations and styles are more "popular" than others, but no modern formation is inherently weaker or stronger than another by itself. It may become so in context but not by design and by default.
I agree that some styles are more straightforward to adopt. Which is why top-level managers are sought after and you don't see Joe Bloggs from Bumfluff Rovers taking over at Man United despite his no-nonsense 1980s 4-5-1 working wonders in tier 9. And which is also why some attractive attacking tactics are good for entertainment but not for winning silverware.

But that's not what happens in FM... There we have a couple of setups that objectively work better/easier in the game compared to others. Or that, at the very least, seem to require much less hassle.
 

But I wasn't even talking about winning!

I'd be happy to get my ass kicked in a 2-4 thriller if it means my team is playing Zeman's 4-3-3 the way it's supposed to be, instead of ending up a weird and disjointed hybrid with way too much tiki-taka or wing-play because apparently the ME favours it even when the TC's instructions don't seem to hint at such outcome.

Performing well or winning are secondary IMO in this debate. What I want is consistency in the input/output process. And, why not, a chance to develop an unfancy system that does what I want it to do. Even if it means I'm losing games every week because it's simply not a viable tactic.

I was like Level 60 when I found out Sneak and Bows were all the rage in Skyrim and I wasn't suddenly a very skilled marksman :)

Had I decided to play as a pure Mage, it'd have been much more frustrating and I'd have probably given up much earlier. It's an unbalance and the fact "it's common in most games" doesn't excuse it happening in a game where "realism" and accuracy are key selling points.

Because there's not a valid reason for it not to work!

Pep could wake up tomorrow and decide to play Sacchi or Mourinho's brand football and it'd be feasible. Maybe not a successful choice for many reasons, but there isn't a "match engine" that prevents him from trying.
Not being able to do so in FM is annoying because it's limiting.

It's like "want to play Direct Counter? Yeah, too bad, this year it's all about Gegenpress... Enjoy months of awful football vaguely resembling your idea. And remember, Gegenpress works... give it a try!"

If my squad is tailor-made for, say, Counter 3-5-2, why should I switch to Tiki-Taka 4-2-3-1 AMCs because the latter works better or is easier to get to an acceptable level of fidelity?

Yeah, ignorance is bliss.

But what if you picked a "dud" formation? You'd felt like an idiot, would have lost to your brother and would have stopped playing in the end.

Real life is "random", FM is a game with code and numbers. So if something doesn't work, there IS a reason for that. And knowing it can be helpful.

All your points are very well made. I hope this years ME lives up to your expectations.

It being a game though makes me feel you’ll be left disappointed again.

SI thanks you for your continued support.

Btw. Pure mage is a piece of cake :)

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15 hours ago, CFuller said:

It's funny how anybody who demands a new Match Engine never explains their reasoning with anything more than, "Well... the current ME's just broken, isn't it?"

For me its not the fact its 'broken' its the fact we have a ME that wouldn't look out of place in gaming 20 years a go.

Brutal but true. I love FM so much, it will always be my favourite ever game but the ME needs a complete overhaul and as a huge fan of the game like someone else mentioned before I'd be more than willing to skip a year in order to get a complete refresh on that part of the game to bring it into the 21st century. And dare I say they may attract a younger audience too (but I do appreciate sales are still great)

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12 minutes ago, DP said:

Well the ME needs proper collision detection for a start. 

yep , this would go a long way to making it look realistic , the way the ball bounces off players is very odd and the fact they cant actually have any kind of tackles or bumping into each other is a bit poor for 2019 

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For me the problem with the ME is similar to what RBKalle explained. I want to take over a different team each save, set my own 5 years path (it's great it will be in FM20, will really help to the rpg like immersion factor), with a tactic and style I want to implement etc, and then I end frustrated because I can't get it to work, so I feel more like playing a puzzle game that has only a way to solve it, either I find it and get bored fast or I don't and get frustrated.

As a sample, I started a game with Internacional de Madrid in the Spanish 2B division. I developed a 4-2-3-1 wide based on attacking, short passing and very high pressure and then I won the season undefeated since I set that tactic, with little challenge. Next season I was in the second division and I was winning all the games as well from the beginning, so I quit that save as I had the feeling that it didn't even matter too much who was in the field (except the last two games of the season when I just played my u18 and lost two games), it was it all about that tactic being overpowered.

Then I started another game, with Espanyol in the Spanish first division, my idea was to develop a 4-3-1-2 more defensive playing counter, my favorite tactic with an amazing number 10 splitting defenses apart with passes to the 2 strikers as I had an amazing skilled AMC. The team was just not playing as I wanted and I couldn't understand why, I lost game after game and was down in the table toying with relegation, out of Europe and the cup.

So I gave the other save 4-2-3-1 tactic a try and bang, my AMC was amazing, I was enjoying watching my team over perform all the sudden, winning vs Madrid, Barcelona, and ending in European spots after being undefeated for most of the season after that tactical change. I could plug any decent player with similar ppm in the same tactic and he would perform well and even had games dominating to the point that the other team didn't shoot a single time, all with the same team that was going to be relegated with another tactic.

I don't think I discovered a diablo tactic myself as it was a pretty standard one similar to the 4-2-3-1 used here by some people in the forums, attacking with high pressing like the gegenpress or tiki taka, with some tweaks to players TIs and the right players ppms. Then reading the forums I saw that there was plenty of people winning with similar tactics. 

So FM19 for me was about solving a puzzle, and once I did, and once I tried and failed with different approaches, then lost the interest as there is no fun on solving the same puzzle again exactly the same way. I'll probably start a new save until FM20 comes, will try again a different approach and team philosophy, but again will be hard to handicap myself to not to go back to my winning tactic if things go bad, and I don't mean bad results, but frustrating football that is not what I had on my mind.  

Tactics in football are for sure a big part of the game, that is why we have amazing managers, but players do matter a lot in real life, and I have the feeling that in FM and specially in the latest versions it's more about solving that tactical puzzle than about having the right players, buying or developing them.

Hope it will change with FM20, but at least with the new feature about the teams personality at least I'll be forced to stick to my defined philosophy and my performance won't be only valued by the wins.

For the non believers, guess when did i change my Espanyol tactic in the 18-19 season and how I'm performing in the 19-20 looking at the schedules, see also my season with International de Madrid when I developed that tactic:

 

Captura de pantalla 2019-09-20 a las 18.31.39.png

Captura de pantalla 2019-09-20 a las 18.31.59.png

Captura de pantalla 2019-09-20 a las 18.35.01.png

Edited by Icy

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3 ore fa, Carambau ha scritto:

Simply don´t play it then if it causes in you the urge to rant about it so much on an internet forum? I wouldve quit by then already if I felt like that, to simply save me energy for other things in life. But then again I am enjoying the game despite its´obvious flaws..

Gotta love the "everything's fine, and if it's not, either pretend it is or if you can't bring yourself to do so, walk away and STFU" answer...

Don't worry, I'm still playing and enjoying FM19 for what it is, with and despite all its quirks, flaws and long-standing issues. Actually I've stopped chasing tactical pipe-dreams and red herrings and I'm now playing the game the way it's "supposed" to be: buckling under the TC/ME "Strategy of the Year" (which I did discover by chance months ago, without having looked around the net).

Indeed my time and energy are better spent on other things than on banging my head on the desk wondering why my Direct 4-4-2 Diamond Narrow still craps out crosses and wide play. Or why strikers don't seem to be able to move correctly inside the 6-yards box no matter what...

Is it Gegenpress 4-4-2 I'm expected to play [because Klopp is the new Pep. And 4-4-2 somehow works great with that style]? So be it... And if I'm feeling really really lazy but fancy a different tactic, I'll bloody download one and goodnight, let's see how unbalanced/overpowered it is... Is it cheating? Who cares... :)

 

P.S. I don't think I'm ranting... I'm merely stating rather obvious things in the most factual way I can (while I'm also passionate about FM). Hopefully we'll come to a point where the ME will be able to give all tactics/styles a fair and equal chance, instead of having a couple of go-to easy solutions.
Most Top-Club saves suffer already from people signing the same players and the same wonderkids (seriously, look at the lineups people post to brag about their success, and even to ask about their failures), we'd have at least see different formations and tactics.

Edited by RBKalle

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hace 9 minutos, RBKalle dijo:

Gotta love the "everything's fine, and if it's not, either pretend it is or if you can't bring yourself to do so, walk away and STFU" answer...

Don't worry, I'm still playing and enjoying FM19 for what it is, with and despite all its quirks, flaws and long-standing issues. Actually I've stopped chasing tactical pipe-dreams and red herrings and I'm now playing the game the way it's "supposed" to be: buckling under the TC/ME "Strategy of the Year" (which I did discover by chance months ago, without having looked around the net).

Indeed my time and energy are better spent on other things than on banging my head on the desk wondering why my Direct 4-4-2 Diamond Narrow still craps out crosses and wide play. Or why strikers don't seem to be able to move correctly inside the 6-yards box no matter what...

Is it Gegenpress 4-4-2 I'm supposed to play? So be it... And if I'm feeling really really lazy but fancy a different tactic, I'll bloody download one and goodnight... Is it cheating? Who cares... :)

 

P.S. I don't think I'm ranting... I'm merely stating rather obvious things in the most factual way I can (while I'm also passionate about FM). Hopefully we'll come to a point where the ME will be able to give all tactics/styles a fair and equal chance, instead of having a couple of go-to easy solutions.
Most Top-Club saves suffer already from people signing the same players and the same wonderkids (seriously, look at the lineups people post to brag about their success, and even to ask about their failures), we'd have at least see different formations and tactics.

 

You just wrote a nice recap of my long post above, exactly same feelings.

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A few welcomed additions that will add more realism but nothing groundbreaking in terms of match engine and modern tactics. 

To me, and I imagine a lot of experienced players, the above two need perhaps the most upgrading. 

- Need to see more realistic defending, movement...

- players playing with the instructions, much better AI

- more things like bumping of players (which is shockingly non-existent)

- GK's reaction to second balls, rebound balls off the posts..., GK behaving more like modern goalkeepers in coming out to clear the ball, more 1 on 1 which is almost zero??

- Pressing triggers when small units hunt in pack and not like headless chicken with 3 players running after one player in a straight line - this is not gengenpressing at all lol 

More announcements to come but I really believe this will make or break the game.

Edited by theballstopshere

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1 hour ago, RBKalle said:

Gotta love the "everything's fine, and if it's not, either pretend it is or if you can't bring yourself to do so, walk away and STFU" answer...

Don't worry, I'm still playing and enjoying FM19 for what it is, with and despite all its quirks, flaws and long-standing issues. Actually I've stopped chasing tactical pipe-dreams and red herrings and I'm now playing the game the way it's "supposed" to be: buckling under the TC/ME "Strategy of the Year" (which I did discover by chance months ago, without having looked around the net).

Indeed my time and energy are better spent on other things than on banging my head on the desk wondering why my Direct 4-4-2 Diamond Narrow still craps out crosses and wide play. Or why strikers don't seem to be able to move correctly inside the 6-yards box no matter what...

Is it Gegenpress 4-4-2 I'm expected to play [because Klopp is the new Pep. And 4-4-2 somehow works great with that style]? So be it... And if I'm feeling really really lazy but fancy a different tactic, I'll bloody download one and goodnight, let's see how unbalanced/overpowered it is... Is it cheating? Who cares... :)

 

P.S. I don't think I'm ranting... I'm merely stating rather obvious things in the most factual way I can (while I'm also passionate about FM). Hopefully we'll come to a point where the ME will be able to give all tactics/styles a fair and equal chance, instead of having a couple of go-to easy solutions.
Most Top-Club saves suffer already from people signing the same players and the same wonderkids (seriously, look at the lineups people post to brag about their success, and even to ask about their failures), we'd have at least see different formations and tactics.

I was just fearing for your health, good to hear you don't take the games' shortcomings too seriously ;)

Edited by Carambau

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do you know whats a joke?

The Manager Attribute system

There should be objectives that increase your manager's attributes

good games are addictive because you have goals, progressions and rewards

but in football manager, you don't get the progressing 

you don't get rewarded 

and there are no goals to increase your manager's attribute 

Edited by kingking

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hace 2 horas, theballstopshere dijo:

A few welcomed additions that will add more realism but nothing groundbreaking in terms of match engine and modern tactics. 

To me, and I imagine a lot of experienced players, the above two need perhaps the most upgrading. 

- Need to see more realistic defending, movement...

- players playing with the instructions, much better AI

- more things like bumping of players (which is shockingly non-existent)

- GK's reaction to second balls, rebound balls off the posts..., GK behaving more like modern goalkeepers in coming out to clear the ball, more 1 on 1 which is almost zero??

- Pressing triggers when small units hunt in pack and not like headless chicken with 3 players running after one player in a straight line

More announcements to come but I really believe this will make or break the game.

man, you just spoke facts. When a player is waiting for a throw-in, the defender always wins the ball because the attacking player just can't protect his position, it's ridiculous. 

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Re: The above tactical musings. I think there's Always going to be something that will simply work "better". In part the cause of that is game / AI flaws which may Always exist (exploited by most tactical Downloads -- which despite the results can sometimes lead to horrible Football with players shooting all over the place against certain Opposition as there's no "Football logic" behind a lot of them but that's another matter). However in parts because any game Code is going to have a slight bias over one Thing vs another. After all, even an 2003 RTS such as Warcraft 3 on the Occasion still gets a balancing patch, and that's structurally arguably a more simple affair than a footie sim, as -- in comparison, the Units and abilities there are rock-paper-scissors with clear counters to every unit/ability. Even if a game were set out to have that perfect balance -- and arguably, under the Right circumstances any style of Play should prove equally successful -- eventually, the Code may never reach that "perfect" balance, even 15 years after an initial release.

In terms of balancing, SI make Things comparably "difficult" for themselves. As the game actually hasn't yet fully embraced Management and playing styles yet "proper". 2019 had introduced the "pre-sets", however that's arguably just Settings given a Name. In the end, everybody still gets to "invent" their own "spin" on it -- and whilst that may replicate Football better than a more finite set of Options; it makes balancing the game naturally a good deal harder. In Terms of playing / Managing styles, the game is "still" at that "Barcelona - here's my Interpretation of Things" stage, which also arguably makes Things rather difficult for the AI, as it's obviously not going to be as creative as a human Manager. 

I've repeatedly argued that Long-term replacing the tactical "mentality / role / Duty / instructions" Micro puzzle with a finite set of "Football concepts" may additionally help Players (as well as AI) "struggling", but that's a bonus. Naturally, if the game were to ever go that route, it'd be a trade-off. Loss of Micro-Control and combinations, which some may not  like... at the same time, the ME itself may replicate the finite set of concepts it is specifically tested and balanced for a lot better than "infinite" ones. The challange may be where to draw the lines -- and what those concepts actually are. 





 

Edited by Svenc

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On 20/09/2019 at 01:19, themadsheep2001 said:

If you're still needing to get the right combinations of roles and duties in said formation, its not an insta-win, or formation working much better by any means :brock:

As an ado: Indeed (as well as instructions). The formations, after all are but formations. They are, to use that term again, one part of FM's tactical "puzzle box". What those formations come to can be hugely different. Which is part of the reason why many "insta-win" "super tactics" come out that horribly unstuck on the Occasion (say 60 crapshoots and no Goal, in particular without a set piece exploit in place to save the day from the Corner/throw in every other match). The aim is to find something the ME doesn't cope well with, which is a viable way of playing if you want to. Still you don't see any Team in Football approaching 5-man-defenses with a couple midfielders protecting those by pushing every Player narrowly up so that they may be pushed whoever they pass to next. The popular "exploits" may do that kinda Thing. So that "garbage in garbage out" Thing applies to here as well. If the AI were "intelligent", it'd recognize how  illogical and/or one-dimensional These tactics are, and all Play that way. If the game were to simulate "realistic" Management, it'd arguably forbid Players from doing such nonsensical Things though (but then as a side-effect also may cut off some "creative" avenues that may exploit ME flaws).

Still, I think we could only ever argue "realism" if the game would Limit the Input for all parties involved, AI includeed, to "realistic" decisions and resulting movement and Play Patterns -- which would also likely make Things easier on the testing and balancing bed, but that'd be a repeat of my post one above. :D 

Edited by Svenc

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On 20/09/2019 at 17:35, Icy said:

For me the problem with the ME is similar to what RBKalle explained. I want to take over a different team each save, set my own 5 years path (it's great it will be in FM20, will really help to the rpg like immersion factor), with a tactic and style I want to implement etc, and then I end frustrated because I can't get it to work, so I feel more like playing a puzzle game that has only a way to solve it, either I find it and get bored fast or I don't and get frustrated.

As a sample, I started a game with Internacional de Madrid in the Spanish 2B division. I developed a 4-2-3-1 wide based on attacking, short passing and very high pressure and then I won the season undefeated since I set that tactic, with little challenge. Next season I was in the second division and I was winning all the games as well from the beginning, so I quit that save as I had the feeling that it didn't even matter too much who was in the field (except the last two games of the season when I just played my u18 and lost two games), it was it all about that tactic being overpowered.

Then I started another game, with Espanyol in the Spanish first division, my idea was to develop a 4-3-1-2 more defensive playing counter, my favorite tactic with an amazing number 10 splitting defenses apart with passes to the 2 strikers as I had an amazing skilled AMC. The team was just not playing as I wanted and I couldn't understand why, I lost game after game and was down in the table toying with relegation, out of Europe and the cup.

So I gave the other save 4-2-3-1 tactic a try and bang, my AMC was amazing, I was enjoying watching my team over perform all the sudden, winning vs Madrid, Barcelona, and ending in European spots after being undefeated for most of the season after that tactical change. I could plug any decent player with similar ppm in the same tactic and he would perform well and even had games dominating to the point that the other team didn't shoot a single time, all with the same team that was going to be relegated with another tactic.

I don't think I discovered a diablo tactic myself as it was a pretty standard one similar to the 4-2-3-1 used here by some people in the forums, attacking with high pressing like the gegenpress or tiki taka, with some tweaks to players TIs and the right players ppms. Then reading the forums I saw that there was plenty of people winning with similar tactics. 

So FM19 for me was about solving a puzzle, and once I did, and once I tried and failed with different approaches, then lost the interest as there is no fun on solving the same puzzle again exactly the same way. I'll probably start a new save until FM20 comes, will try again a different approach and team philosophy, but again will be hard to handicap myself to not to go back to my winning tactic if things go bad, and I don't mean bad results, but frustrating football that is not what I had on my mind.  

Tactics in football are for sure a big part of the game, that is why we have amazing managers, but players do matter a lot in real life, and I have the feeling that in FM and specially in the latest versions it's more about solving that tactical puzzle than about having the right players, buying or developing them.

Hope it will change with FM20, but at least with the new feature about the teams personality at least I'll be forced to stick to my defined philosophy and my performance won't be only valued by the wins.

For the non believers, guess when did i change my Espanyol tactic in the 18-19 season and how I'm performing in the 19-20 looking at the schedules, see also my season with International de Madrid when I developed that tactic:

 

Captura de pantalla 2019-09-20 a las 18.31.39.png

Captura de pantalla 2019-09-20 a las 18.31.59.png

Captura de pantalla 2019-09-20 a las 18.35.01.png

Great post you make some excellent points, especially the part about solving the puzzle then being almost over the game to a point because any attempt to try something different seemed like a handicap

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11 hours ago, Gunnersmoke said:

Great post you make some excellent points, especially the part about solving the puzzle then being almost over the game to a point because any attempt to try something different seemed like a handicap

I agree. A the same time I wonder how he would react to if the game were a more "realistic" tactical Simulation. Tactics, in and on themselves aren't "Winning formulas". Tactical decisions may shift the odds a few. Matches between competitive Teams tend to be settled in small margins and split second decisions of Play (some of which Pretty random overall). 


As he's highlighted himself, as soon as he went away from his "Winning Formula" which (like 95% of the download section every year) may have hit onto something the AI/ME doesn't cope with that well -- he went straight back. His "Winning Formula" stopped the game from being like Football too much. Often times this is measurable pretty simply. F'r instance, shot to goal conversion advantages over opposition averages (displayed in the team report stats page) unheard of in competitive football. Some of the "better" "super tactics" of the last years had sides even consistently converting 20%+ of their shots into a goal, regardless of player quality. Those are absolute numbers unheard of in football anywhere.

Indeed, it's been a theory of mine that many looking for that "winning formula" every year are doing such because it stops the game from being like football too much. WIthout it, their players may matter more. That WWDWWW sequence may easily look like WWLLWWL. And then he's back to this stage: "The game is too random, please make it stop SI". :D
 



I actually think that, Deep down inside, the majority of Players would prefer clear signs that they hold an Edge over AI Competition. Maybe not in the form of straight out "exploits". But in some way. Going by the long-running history, the game will always have these flaws. Hence, there will be "winning formulas". It's still a choice if you play with them or won't.

Edited by Svenc

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54 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Some of the "better" "super tactics" of the last years had sides even consistently converting 20%+ of their shots into a goal, regardless of player quality. Those are absolute numbers unheard of in football anywhere.

This kind of tactics do not improve efficiency first but dramatically increase (+ 20-50%) the number of shots and significantly reduce the number of shots of the opposing teams (-10-30%). Of course, this means that these super tactics generate large spaces in attack and at the same time, create defensive configurations that the AI does not handle.  By the way, Gegenpressing has a similar effect but with a lower efficiency.

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I guess the regens will look like that agent. A slight improvement i think. Maybe ill end up buying this version. Would be the first since FM16.

Playing-Time---Contract-Offer-2_0a3f2b3ebeb77187d.jpg

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Quote


Yesterdays Twitter Poll feature roulette winner was 19168 - Manager AI related. Better modelling of higher profile clubs taking some competitions less seriously, so more likely to use squad & youth players for tournaments like the League Cup/Euro Cup #FM20Features


 

 
 
So maybe we can hope for better AI team management?
Edited by saihtam

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Svenc, what I wanted to express as well in my post, is that I found that "high % of winning tactic" by accident trying to implement a realistic tactic, not that I used a weird formation or exploit, it was just because this year ME can't cope with top heavy formations with heavy press that are used by a lot of elite teams in real life. The opposite team players, no matter how top quality they have, start kicking the ball away as soon as they feel pressured, so either they score on me in a counter or they are pinned into their half just kicking it long to my defenders to recycle posesion again and again. On the other hand, my own players do not get tired enough or the effect of being tired is not that noticeable, so they can keep gegenpressing the whole game.

I don't want to overperform just because I found an easy tactic, but because a global combination of tactic, finding players, developing youth, handing the players personal issues, etc in resume, because I'm a good manager in this fantasy world. I know that while not in the majority of players, there are a few like me that enjoy struggling, fighting for relegation every year, etc with a low quality team and slowly trying to turn things around with little steps every season thanks to my management skills in a semi realistic way.

I like posesion football, with high pressing, but I can't use it in FM19 without feeling I'm cheating and that my results aren't because I'm a good manager but because I'm using an exploit, so I need to find a different style to get more realistic results, and that is what is frustrating me, to have to handicap myself about using realistic tactic, not just about using extreme unrealistic ones, that I wouldn't ever want to use.

 

 

Edited by Icy

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4 hours ago, Icy said:

Svenc, what I wanted to express as well in my post, is that I found that "high % of winning tactic" by accident trying to implement a realistic tactic, not that I used a weird formation or exploit, it was just because this year ME can't cope with top heavy formations with heavy press that are used by a lot of elite teams in real life. The opposite team players, no matter how top quality they have, start kicking the ball away as soon as they feel pressured, so either they score on me in a counter or they are pinned into their half just kicking it long to my defenders to recycle posesion again and again. On the other hand, my own players do not get tired enough or the effect of being tired is not that noticeable, so they can keep gegenpressing the whole game.

I don't want to overperform just because I found an easy tactic, but because a global combination of tactic, finding players, developing youth, handing the players personal issues, etc in resume, because I'm a good manager in this fantasy world. I know that while not in the majority of players, there are a few like me that enjoy struggling, fighting for relegation every year, etc with a low quality team and slowly trying to turn things around with little steps every season thanks to my management skills in a semi realistic way.

I like posesion football, with high pressing, but I can't use it in FM19 without feeling I'm cheating and that my results aren't because I'm a good manager but because I'm using an exploit, so I need to find a different style to get more realistic results, and that is what is frustrating me, to have to handicap myself about using realistic tactic, not just about using extreme unrealistic ones, that I wouldn't ever want to use.

 

 

It’s exactly like many other games unfortunately. Back to Skyrim for instance. I deliberately chose builds and difficulty settings and mods that made the game near on impossible JUST to give myself a challenge. The game itself, after years of playing it, was just too easy. It became boring. 

For all of us that have been playing CM/FM for over 20 years it’s the same story. On the whole.

It’s a game. We know it. We love it. But there isn’t much we can do about having the sort of knowledge we do of how it works. 

Playing as Bilboa helps ;) 

I normally end the year with 3 or 4 tactics that could be considered ‘broken’ in my tactic save folder. But there are dozens of tactics I’ve tried that haven’t quite hit the mark. If I’m dominating with Watford for instance in the first season I know the tactic is probably a bit broken. If however I’m doing ok but it’s still a struggle I’ll give the tactic a few seasons so I can build the squad I want to fit the tactic and / or just get in worldies everywhere. If the results are still mid table then I know the tactic isn’t up to scratch. If I start improving then the tactic is fairly realistic and it gives most satisfaction.

We’ll never get away from the fact that this is a game. Rock, paper, scissors is really the only format. Handicapping ones self and showing some restraint is just part and parcel if you want a challenge.

I also only ever play network games now. Having that other human element makes a big difference to challenge and reward.

I totally agree with you that my management of my team should have more influence than just the tactic. In fairness it does to a certain extent. Do I play my worldie kid who’s just decided to become unambtious after winning everything the year before? Should I play my star striker in the champs league final, even though he’s still slightly injured after 6 weeks out? All of these managerial decisions do have an impact on the pitch, but none as much it seems as the tactic itself. Too much is placed on the tactic in FM19. Hopefully in 20 it could be levelled out a bit.   

Edited by sidslayer

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17 hours ago, decapitated said:
 

 

I feel like this is a dumb question, but what does this actually mean?

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23 minuti fa, gunner86 ha scritto:

I feel like this is a dumb question, but what does this actually mean?

more basque newgens instead of spanish/french, I think.

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58 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

more basque newgens instead of spanish/french, I think.

So if you were managing, for example, Real Sociedad, you'd be more likely to get Basque players than previously?

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