Can't translate my phylosophy into the game (frustrated) teach me the dark arts

[Strikerir]

Soo im here for help again wohoo!! im so frustrated :'c

I have a way i view the game of football, and thats the way i want to play the game, you can call it a phylosophy (even though i dont like that ideia of phylosophy).

I like my teams to be super solid in defence i always try building from the back all the way to the striker. like i always think to myself "i prefrer a 0-0 draw then a 4-3 victory"

i get some sucess in the defending department i think its not hard to create a solid defence ,but it completly neglets the attack.

im a sucker for counter attacking, i just love seeing this 2d dots running the whole pitch creating explosive attacks.

I have read the cleon thread from some years ago on how he goes about creating a counter attacking strategy, but i wonder is it still the same principals for fm19?

I want to read your opinions how do you go about creating a counter attack strategy and hopefully help me on this never ending struggle i have in this game.  https://community.sigames.com/topic/362162-the-art-of-counter-attacking/

[Piperita]

Are you in mid-season or just beginning a save?

If you are starting anew, I'd recommend to start with the roles and ignore PI and TI for now (except maybe(!) activating 'Counter'). A good combination of players, roles, and formation can already create a pretty good basic counter tactic that you can fine-tune throughout the pre-season by some minor tweaks. 

If you are in the middle of the season, prepare for some fun! Maybe try slowly morphing your current tactic or use your B-Team for experimentation? In these cases everything can be a gamble unless you are already so completely down it can't get worse!

[Experienced Defender]

23 hours ago, Strikerir said:

I like my teams to be super solid in defence i always try building from the back all the way to the striker

 

23 hours ago, Strikerir said:

i just love seeing this 2d dots running the whole pitch creating explosive attacks

Well, if you want to play this particular style of counter-attacking football, you first need a specific type of players (very good both technically and mentally, and with some speed up front).

Assuming that you have such players, you can start with something like this and then tweak if and where needed:

TQ/F9

IFsu                                     IFat

MEZat    BBM

HB

WBsu      CD     CD      WBsu

SKsu

Positive mentality

- shorter passing, play out of defence, run at defence, be more expressive, pass into space

- counter

- standard DL, lower (or standard) LOE, get stuck in

DM and both CMs to mark tighter (PI).

 

[Strikerir]

5 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

Well, if you want to play this particular style of counter-attacking football, you first need a specific type of players (very good both technically and mentally, and with some speed up front).

Assuming that you have such players, you can start with something like this and then tweak if and where needed:

TQ/F9

IFsu                                     IFat

MEZat    BBM

HB

WBsu      CD     CD      WBsu

SKsu

Positive mentality

- shorter passing, play out of defence, run at defence, be more expressive, pass into space

- counter

- standard DL, lower (or standard) LOE, get stuck in

DM and both CMs to mark tighter (PI).

 

thanks for the suggestion but can you give me one imformation?

go to the link i posted and tell me if cleon's guide still aplies to this iteration of the game?

[Experienced Defender]

10 minutes ago, Strikerir said:

go to the link i posted and tell me if cleon's guide still aplies to this iteration of the game?

Not sure it still applies. It was written in 2015, and the game has evolved a lot since then, especially FM19 has brought some great new features that did not exist back then. I mean, principles of counter-attacking football do apply (as always), but the way of translating them into FM has changed.

[Rashidi]

I play a style of football that incorporates counter attacking elements into the system.  This is done by choosing certain roles and duties on the pitch whom I expect to see focus more on the attacking side. However I do not want to to sit back and soak for 90 mins. Instead I prefer a style of football where we can remain compact in defence and when we have the ball, I except when the ball is with certain players...for them to go direct and look for the scoring options up front. I also expect at other times for the ball to be worked slowly and methodically with an emphasis on secure passing. Naturally against certain opposition teams we will always be under pressure, here i am banking on those roles that have been assigned to look for either a. The quick ball out, i don't care where it goes, i just want it to go, and b) These players are a bit more creative they will look for the better option.

With a flip of the switch i want to be able to camp in the opponents half and if i flip the switch back I want to drop back and soak. So how do i do this?

I choose roles and duties very carefully. In a typical 442, i could:
Opt for a TM(A)/PF(A) combo up front. Its simple but effective
Set up by backs to do "Cross aim TM* this way they have a priority target.
At the back I want two kinds of defenders, one is a BPD the other an NCD. One is a thinker the other is a hoofer.

Measured passing is done entirely by duties, since i want a more direct style of play, tempo is more important, so i make sure i do not play on a slow tempo.

Finally the big kicker. How i use LOE and DL. How compact your team is in defending and how you get support up using your backline is going to be affected by the DL/LOE relationship. If you play with a lower defensive line and a higher LOE you are essentially defending the pitch with individual players, which is why its so typical to see people hit the pressing urgency slider. You don't need to do this if you have set your DL/LOE properly. understanding each players attributes against the role you want them to play within an overall system of role combinations is way more important.

Finally mentality, this affects everything in the game. Me i just love playing on higher mentalities, as it generally shifts everything higher. So I play most of my games on positive mentality. At the moment I have started a save with Hannover 96 which will be my last save on FM19, this save is all about counter attacking football, but i like to think its played a bit more intelligently. We can shift into a gear where we go camping, but its when we are defending that we are the most dangerous. i can stick up some screenshots to illustrate what i mean later. I just wanted to share that this style of football still works. I don't need high amounts of possession, i just don't like having too little. We usually ranged between 45-50 in most games. 

What you should take away from this is:

1. You can be as counter attacking as you like, its your block that will define this and how you defend that space. Different formations do it differently. The 442 is perhaps one of the better counter attacking options, since it has 2 in attack and can still you give 2 banks of 4.

2. Your choice of roles and duties will be the next important consideration. Decide how you want to launch your attacks, then choose the roles accordingly. I would venture you will only need two attack duties on ANY mentality for it to be a good counter system.

3. Dont set up too many PIs and avoid the temptation to plaster to many TIs. There will be some Tis you will need but these depend on your formation.

[Strikerir]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

I play a style of football that incorporates counter attacking elements into the system.  This is done by choosing certain roles and duties on the pitch whom I expect to see focus more on the attacking side. However I do not want to to sit back and soak for 90 mins. Instead I prefer a style of football where we can remain compact in defence and when we have the ball, I except when the ball is with certain players...for them to go direct and look for the scoring options up front. I also expect at other times for the ball to be worked slowly and methodically with an emphasis on secure passing. Naturally against certain opposition teams we will always be under pressure, here i am banking on those roles that have been assigned to look for either a. The quick ball out, i don't care where it goes, i just want it to go, and b) These players are a bit more creative they will look for the better option.

With a flip of the switch i want to be able to camp in the opponents half and if i flip the switch back I want to drop back and soak. So how do i do this?

I choose roles and duties very carefully. In a typical 442, i could:
Opt for a TM(A)/PF(A) combo up front. Its simple but effective
Set up by backs to do "Cross aim TM* this way they have a priority target.
At the back I want two kinds of defenders, one is a BPD the other an NCD. One is a thinker the other is a hoofer.

Measured passing is done entirely by duties, since i want a more direct style of play, tempo is more important, so i make sure i do not play on a slow tempo.

Finally the big kicker. How i use LOE and DL. How compact your team is in defending and how you get support up using your backline is going to be affected by the DL/LOE relationship. If you play with a lower defensive line and a higher LOE you are essentially defending the pitch with individual players, which is why its so typical to see people hit the pressing urgency slider. You don't need to do this if you have set your DL/LOE properly. understanding each players attributes against the role you want them to play within an overall system of role combinations is way more important.

Finally mentality, this affects everything in the game. Me i just love playing on higher mentalities, as it generally shifts everything higher. So I play most of my games on positive mentality. At the moment I have started a save with Hannover 96 which will be my last save on FM19, this save is all about counter attacking football, but i like to think its played a bit more intelligently. We can shift into a gear where we go camping, but its when we are defending that we are the most dangerous. i can stick up some screenshots to illustrate what i mean later. I just wanted to share that this style of football still works. I don't need high amounts of possession, i just don't like having too little. We usually ranged between 45-50 in most games. 

What you should take away from this is:

1. You can be as counter attacking as you like, its your block that will define this and how you defend that space. Different formations do it differently. The 442 is perhaps one of the better counter attacking options, since it has 2 in attack and can still you give 2 banks of 4.

2. Your choice of roles and duties will be the next important consideration. Decide how you want to launch your attacks, then choose the roles accordingly. I would venture you will only need two attack duties on ANY mentality for it to be a good counter system.

3. Dont set up too many PIs and avoid the temptation to plaster to many TIs. There will be some Tis you will need but these depend on your formation.

First i wanna say one thing and i dont want to sound like a fanboy but its an honor to have you comenting on something i struggle because i learned so much with your vídeos thank you. Secondly im currently using elements from cleon's guide and im having some nice sucess but we dont proprely launch crazy counter attacks but im finding a lot of solidety and im loving it but could be better ill try to implement the insight you have giving me again thank you experienced defender and rashidi and everybody helping me on my quest

[Strikerir]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

 

2. Your choice of roles and duties will be the next important consideration. Decide how you want to launch your attacks, then choose the roles accordingly. I would venture you will only need two attack duties on ANY mentality for it to be a good counter system.

 

Yeah i dont use a lot of attackig duties i normally use attacking roles on the players i want to get goals from im currently playing a 4411 where my attacking duties are the inverted winger and my dlf sometimes it dependes how the opossition set their lines . example: if they go deep ill have him on attack if they are high i have my am on attack

[Rashidi]

10 hours ago, Strikerir said:

Yeah i dont use a lot of attackig duties i normally use attacking roles on the players i want to get goals from im currently playing a 4411 where my attacking duties are the inverted winger and my dlf sometimes it dependes how the opossition set their lines . example: if they go deep ill have him on attack if they are high i have my am on attack

That sounds like a great start. In my counter attacking 442, the only two attacking duties are my two strikers

[johnnyyakuza78]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

That sounds like a great start. In my counter attacking 442, the only two attacking duties are my two strikers

How do you deal with the large gap between midfield and attack, doesn’t this make your play very one dimensional if one players isn’t coming back to link up?

[Strikerir]

20 minutes ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

How do you deal with the large gap between midfield and attack, doesn’t this make your play very one dimensional if one players isn’t coming back to link up?

A striker on attack like a dlf a cf a pf they drop deep even being on attack being on attack doesnt mean you are stuck behind the opossition defence it means they are going to attack the space when they get the opportunity

[Rashidi]

1 hour ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

How do you deal with the large gap between midfield and attack, doesn’t this make your play very one dimensional if one players isn’t coming back to link up?

Its set up to create two compact blocks of each. If its a pure counter where we are defending deep then the ball goes from wider positions immediately to of of my strikers. He then fashions space and plays it the other other. In a 2 on 2 situation its usually enough. If i do have control of the match the rest can be more dangerous if we are allowed to play the ball through midfield.

So a TM(A) and a PF(A) for example..both roles can drop deep to hold up the ball, but they will pivot off each other. They aren't too similar but they both have a unique style of play. I agree the counter attacking style is one dimensional, its only one kind of football that we produce, but its intentional. I don't want to think, just defend compact, and hit teams on the break. Forget the flash, just do the dash to goal.

[Strikerir]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

Its set up to create two compact blocks of each. If its a pure counter where we are defending deep then the ball goes from wider positions immediately to of of my strikers. He then fashions space and plays it the other other. In a 2 on 2 situation its usually enough. If i do have control of the match the rest can be more dangerous if we are allowed to play the ball through midfield.

So a TM(A) and a PF(A) for example..both roles can drop deep to hold up the ball, but they will pivot off each other. They aren't too similar but they both have a unique style of play. I agree the counter attacking style is one dimensional, its only one kind of football that we produce, but its intentional. I don't want to think, just defend compact, and hit teams on the break. Forget the flash, just do the dash to goal.

Yeah just like i explained even thought their are on attack the right role will drop deep and link up or hold the ball waiting for teammates i also predicted that you would play something like a PF TM combo that combo makes me remember Jota and Jimenez for wolves

[Strikerir]

I have one more question. Im currently playing with a 4411 with southampton first season with the first transfer Window desabled so that i start the premier league like it started in real life.

in my system the main goal is defending solid and use counter attacks as the main weapon of attacking. And i have a clear vision of the way i want to counter attack but its not necessarly going the way i want.

So the ideia is defend have my b2b and dlp take the ball the dlp lauches foward to rushing wingers attacking midfielder and striker or the box to box midfielder takes the ball dribles a little bit and makes a pass to start the counter attack.

To do this i added more pressing to both my midfielders with hard tackling so they are agressive my question is how do i make my "front four" rushing foward ?

[wixxi]

52 minutes ago, Strikerir said:

I have one more question. Im currently playing with a 4411 with southampton first season with the first transfer Window desabled so that i start the premier league like it started in real life.

in my system the main goal is defending solid and use counter attacks as the main weapon of attacking. And i have a clear vision of the way i want to counter attack but its not necessarly going the way i want.

So the ideia is defend have my b2b and dlp take the ball the dlp lauches foward to rushing wingers attacking midfielder and striker or the box to box midfielder takes the ball dribles a little bit and makes a pass to start the counter attack.

To do this i added more pressing to both my midfielders with hard tackling so they are agressive my question is how do i make my "front four" rushing foward ?

Put them on attack duties

[Strikerir]

20 minutes ago, wixxi said:

Put them on attack 

great

[Strikerir]

Im going to ilustrate what i want from the tactic, im going to put some images that translate my ideial counter attacking transition and i want the geniuses out there to tell if this is possible within this game  

As you can see its a standard defensive shape 4411 defensive shape but as you can see i want everybody behind the ball to remain as solid as it can be offering little weakness. I know i can still get scored on but this is the shape i want. now in the transition period i want t

This is the shape of the transition i want to recreate the two highlited players in the square are my two midfielders. I want them to be ball stealers and quickly give the ball to the AM one of them i want as dlp that has the freedom to make the pass fowards instead of just giving it to the AM but the other one i just want him to steal the ball and pass it shorter.

That's it hopefully someone can help me

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Strikerir said:

Im going to ilustrate what i want from the tactic, im going to put some images that translate my ideial counter attacking transition and i want the geniuses out there to tell if this is possible within this game  

As you can see its a standard defensive shape 4411 defensive shape but as you can see i want everybody behind the ball to remain as solid as it can be offering little weakness. I know i can still get scored on but this is the shape i want. now in the transition period i want t

This is the shape of the transition i want to recreate the two highlited players in the square are my two midfielders. I want them to be ball stealers and quickly give the ball to the AM one of them i want as dlp that has the freedom to make the pass fowards instead of just giving it to the AM but the other one i just want him to steal the ball and pass it shorter.

That's it hopefully someone can help me

I can only tell you how I would look to set up a tactic if I wanted to achieve what you described. But is it going to work the way you expect with the current Southampton team, that's a different question.

So let's start with roles and duties:

DLFat

AMat

IWat       CMde     DLPsu      IWsu

 

WBsu     CDde    CDde      WBde

GK/SK

I'd go with Balanced mentality because it offers the easiest way for you to see if something does not work and needs to be tweaked.

Basic (starting) team instructions could be these:

- shorter passing, higher tempo, hit early crosses

- counter, regroup

- standard DL, lower LOE, get stuck in

Player instructions:

All 4 midfielders - mark tighter

AMat - roam from position

All defend-duty players (both CBs, RB and CM on defend) - more direct passing

IWsu - get further forward

 

[Strikerir]

35 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I can only tell you how I would look to set up a tactic if I wanted to achieve what you described. But is it going to work the way you expect with the current Southampton team, that's a different question.

So let's start with roles and duties:

DLFat

AMat

IWat       CMde     DLPsu      IWsu

 

WBsu     CDde    CDde      WBde

GK/SK

I'd go with Balanced mentality because it offers the easiest way for you to see if something does not work and needs to be tweaked.

Basic (starting) team instructions could be these:

- shorter passing, higher tempo, hit early crosses

- counter, regroup

- standard DL, lower LOE, get stuck in

Player instructions:

All 4 midfielders - mark tighter

AMat - roam from position

All defend-duty players (both CBs, RB and CM on defend) - more direct passing

IWsu - get further forward

 

Thanks ill try that later

[Experienced Defender]

10 minutes ago, Strikerir said:

Thanks ill try that later

Good luck. mate!

[Strikerir]

33 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Good luck. mate!

i posted a reply but its not appearing but basicly i just said im jealus that you are so knowlagable in this game i wish i would be half that knowladgeble i mean i experiment alot but never seem to hit the mark

[Experienced Defender]

4 minutes ago, Strikerir said:

i posted a reply but its not appearing but basicly i just said im jealus that you are so knowlagable in this game i wish i would be half that knowladgeble i mean i experiment alot but never seem to hit the mark

I just replied in the other topic.

[Strikerir]

39 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I just replied in the other topic.

yeah i just mixed up the topics i guess im just lionel messy like that

[Strikerir]

Just now, Strikerir said:

yeah i just mixed up the topics i guess im just lionel messy like that

bad joke sorry