Jupp Heynckes’ 4-2-3-1

[Pilcs]

Quick disclaimer, I am still learning here. Even though I've been playing FM for a few years now I am by no means an expert so any advice is more than welcome! Also I am not saying this is exactly how the treble winning team played, I am simply putting together my version.

Before reading this post I highly recommend watching this great Tifo Football video on Bayern Munich & Jupp Heynckes’ Treble winning season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLjkWniuBII

That season he built a team that dominated the Bundesliga breaking numerous records including the most points during a season (91), fewest goals against (18), highest goal difference (+81) and many more by playing an attractive possession based style of football. During the Champions League the team showed their tactical flexibility as they produced devastating counter-attacking performances such as the famous 7-0 (agg.) demolition of Barcelona in both legs of the Semi-Final.

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012–13_FC_Bayern_Munich_season

Introduction

One mistake I've made throughout my time playing FM is not appreciating everything that goes into recreating teams of old. Simply creating the tactic isn’t enough. Playing someone as an Inside Forward isn’t going to make them Arjen Robben. Playing a high line with a high press isn’t going to be successful with Per Mertesacker and Daley Blind at the back. A counter-press isn’t going to work if players don’t have high work rate and stamina. Likewise how are players expected to play in this way if the training schedules don’t regularly include sessions which improve these attributes and work on these things. Therefore recreating this will be a process; getting the right players in to suit the system, training the players to play in this way and creating a realistic version of the tactic that the current players can actually play.

As a result throughout this topic I will be covering the following:

• Post 2 will cover my interpretation of the roles and player instructions used in Bayern’s treble winning team, the team instructions used for the possession football in the Bundesliga and the team instructions used for the counter-attacking football in the Champions League.
• Post 3 will cover the club choice for recreating Jupp’s treble winning team. I’ll go over a realistic (with the players available) version of both the possession and counter-attacking tactics as well as the relevant training schedules.
• Post 4 will include season updates.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Pilcs

[Pilcs]

Bayern Munich's Treble Winning Team

Roles

GK Sweeper Keeper Attack | Manuel Neuer
None
No explanation needed. The role made famous by the German keeper.

DR Wing-Back Support | Philipp Lahm
Close Down More
Wing-Back to take advantage of the space vacated by the inside forward ahead of him and whilst Lahm did get forward often I think the support duty balances well with Robben’s attack duty on the same flank. He is also encouraged to close down more to press heavily in the wide areas.

DCR & DCL Central Defenders Stopper | Jerome Boateng & Dante
None
Stopper duties have been used to promote the central defenders pushing ahead of the defensive line and sticking close to the opposition attackers. I did think about Ball Playing Defenders but I think Central Defenders with traits such as Likes To Switch Ball To Other Flank (like Boateng and Dante have) then I think that suffices.

DL Wing-Back Attack | David Alaba
Close Down More
I’ve gone with the Attack duty here as Alaba regularly bombed forward and even got amongst the goals during the season. Like Lahm he is also encouraged to close down more to press heavily in the wide areas.

DMCR Anchor Man Defend | Javi Martinez
Mark Tighter
I think you could argue he was a Defensive Midfielder Defend however I think this role will offer that screening and occasional dropping in front of the defence that the DM wouldn’t offer, tough one though. DM strata has been used as it offers the screening in front of the defence that CMs just don’t offer. 

DMCL Segundo Volante Support | Bastian Schweinsteiger
Mark Tighter
To me I think this role perfectly sums up Schweinsteiger’s role within the team. He was like a Defensive Midfielder, Deep-lying Playmaker and Box-to-box Player all rolled into one. Mark Tighter has been used to cut off passing options when the flanks are being pressed.

AMR Inside Forward Attack | Arjen Robben
Stay Wider, Close Down More, Mark Specific Position D (L)
How many times have we seen Arjen Robben hugging the touchline out wide, receive the ball, cut inside at pace and curl one top bins? To me this was an obvious choice. He is encouraged to close down more to press heavily in the wide areas as well as sticking closely to his opposite full back.

AMC Attacking Midfielder Support | Toni Kroos
Mark Tighter
Wasn’t too sure with this role so I’ve gone with a pretty blank canvas. He will drop deep and support the DMs but won’t be a focal point like an advanced playmaker would be. He will also get into the box from time to time and crack a long shot in. Mark Tighter has been used to cut off passing options when the flanks are being pressed.

AML Inside Forward Support | Franck Ribery
Roam from Position, Close Down More, Mark Specific Position D (R)
Could argue that his role is more of an inverted winger but as I went with the AM strata for the wingers (to promote pressing higher up) I’ve gone with Inside Forward on support and will work well with the overlapping DL. He is encouraged to close down more to press heavily in the wide areas as well as sticking closely to his opposite full back. He is also allowed to Roam from Position along with the STC as these two often end up in each others position and to create variety in our play.

STC Pressing Forward Attack | Mario Mandzukic
Roam from Position
He will be a nuisance for the opposition defenders and constantly put pressure on them. Roam from Position has been added as mentioned in the AML role. Mark Tighter has been used to cut off the closest passing lane if the wide areas are being pressed.

Subs:

AMR Raumdeuter Attack | Thomas Muller
Close Down More, Mark Specific Position D (L)
Thomas Muller was a massive reason for the success of this team and to call him a rotation player wouldn’t do him justice. Preferably I would play him in this role however he could easily play in the STC position and if I did play him in the AMC position I would play him as a Shadow Striker or Attacking Midfielder Attack.

STC Poacher Attack | Mario Gomez
Mark Tighter
This man would come off the bench to do one thing, score.

Apart from that, other players such as Shaqiri, Luiz Gustavo, Van Buyten and Claudio Pizaro in my opinion would come in and play pretty much the same roles as the player they replaced.

Bundesliga Possession Team Instructions

Play Out Of Defence and Work Ball Into Box have been used to promote possession of the ball.
Pass Into Space has been used as if we win the ball high up the pitch we want to punish the opposition by quickly taking advantage of the space left behind by advancing players.
Counter-Press has been used along with the individual player instructions to try and replicate the pressing Jupp used.
Much Higher Defensive Line, Much Higher Line Of Engagement and Prevent Short GK Distribution have all been used to try and win the ball back as high up as possible in dangerous areas.

Champions League Counter-Attacking Team Instructions

Work Ball Into Box has been used to encourage the chances we do make on the break to be as clear cut as possible.
Pass Into Space has been used as when we win the ball back we want to punish the opposition by quickly taking advantage of the space left behind by advancing players.
Counter-Press has been used along with the individual player instructions to try and replicate the pressing Jupp used.
Counter has been used to promote countering at every opportunity.
Be More Disciplined has been used so that the team keep their shape and stick to their jobs. We want this deep defensive unit to be hard to beat with no gaps.
Lower Defensive Line, Lower Line of Engagement have been used to keep the team deep, compact and hard to break down.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Pilcs

[Pilcs]

Reserved.

[Pilcs]

Reserved.

[CARRERA]

Great read, really looking forward how this will play out. Do you use a mod for the squad bayern had these days or are you trying to recreate it with the actual players?

[gam945]

2 hours ago, Pilcs said:

Lower Defensive Line, Lower Line of Engagement have been used to keep the team deep, compact and hard to break down.

Bayern never played deep in Champions league matches imo

Seen almost every match of the 2012/2013 and never recall a match where they played deep

Against Juventus and Arsenal they were ±high, gainst Barcelona they were neither high neither deep

Bayern in this period had a short-passing fast tempo play, not like Barcelona 2011, but much more direct, IMO.

For the tactics itself, can't help, I'm still in the learning process lol

[wixxi]

2 hours ago, Pilcs said:

Bayern Munich's Treble Winning Team

Roles

GK Sweeper Keeper Attack | Manuel Neuer
None
No explanation needed. The role made famous by the German keeper.

DR Wing-Back Support | Philipp Lahm
Close Down More
Wing-Back to take advantage of the space vacated by the inside forward ahead of him and whilst Lahm did get forward often I think the support duty balances well with Robben’s attack duty on the same flank. He is also encouraged to close down more to press heavily in the wide areas.

DCR & DCL Central Defenders Stopper | Jerome Boateng & Dante
None
Stopper duties have been used to promote the central defenders pushing ahead of the defensive line and sticking close to the opposition attackers. I did think about Ball Playing Defenders but I think Central Defenders with traits such as Likes To Switch Ball To Other Flank (like Boateng and Dante have) then I think that suffices.

DL Wing-Back Attack | David Alaba
Close Down More
I’ve gone with the Attack duty here as Alaba regularly bombed forward and even got amongst the goals during the season. Like Lahm he is also encouraged to close down more to press heavily in the wide areas.

DMCR Anchor Man Defend | Javi Martinez
Mark Tighter
I think you could argue he was a Defensive Midfielder Defend however I think this role will offer that screening and occasional dropping in front of the defence that the DM wouldn’t offer, tough one though. DM strata has been used as it offers the screening in front of the defence that CMs just don’t offer. 

DMCL Segundo Volante Support | Bastian Schweinsteiger
Mark Tighter
To me I think this role perfectly sums up Schweinsteiger’s role within the team. He was like a Defensive Midfielder, Deep-lying Playmaker and Box-to-box Player all rolled into one. Mark Tighter has been used to cut off passing options when the flanks are being pressed.

AMR Inside Forward Attack | Arjen Robben
Stay Wider, Close Down More, Mark Specific Position D (L)
How many times have we seen Arjen Robben hugging the touchline out wide, receive the ball, cut inside at pace and curl one top bins? To me this was an obvious choice. He is encouraged to close down more to press heavily in the wide areas as well as sticking closely to his opposite full back.

AMC Attacking Midfielder Support | Toni Kroos
Mark Tighter
Wasn’t too sure with this role so I’ve gone with a pretty blank canvas. He will drop deep and support the DMs but won’t be a focal point like an advanced playmaker would be. He will also get into the box from time to time and crack a long shot in. Mark Tighter has been used to cut off passing options when the flanks are being pressed.

AML Inside Forward Support | Franck Ribery
Roam from Position, Close Down More, Mark Specific Position D (R)
Could argue that his role is more of an inverted winger but as I went with the AM strata for the wingers (to promote pressing higher up) I’ve gone with Inside Forward on support and will work well with the overlapping DL. He is encouraged to close down more to press heavily in the wide areas as well as sticking closely to his opposite full back. He is also allowed to Roam from Position along with the STC as these two often end up in each others position and to create variety in our play.

STC Pressing Forward Attack | Mario Mandzukic
Roam from Position
He will be a nuisance for the opposition defenders and constantly put pressure on them. Roam from Position has been added as mentioned in the AML role. Mark Tighter has been used to cut off the closest passing lane if the wide areas are being pressed.

Subs:

AMR Raumdeuter Attack | Thomas Muller
Close Down More, Mark Specific Position D (L)
Thomas Muller was a massive reason for the success of this team and to call him a rotation player wouldn’t do him justice. Preferably I would play him in this role however he could easily play in the STC position and if I did play him in the AMC position I would play him as a Shadow Striker or Attacking Midfielder Attack.

STC Poacher Attack | Mario Gomez
Mark Tighter
This man would come off the bench to do one thing, score.

Apart from that, other players such as Shaqiri, Luiz Gustavo, Van Buyten and Claudio Pizaro in my opinion would come in and play pretty much the same roles as the player they replaced.

Bundesliga Possession Team Instructions

Play Out Of Defence and Work Ball Into Box have been used to promote possession of the ball.
Pass Into Space has been used as if we win the ball high up the pitch we want to punish the opposition by quickly taking advantage of the space left behind by advancing players.
Counter-Press has been used along with the individual player instructions to try and replicate the pressing Jupp used.
Much Higher Defensive Line, Much Higher Line Of Engagement and Prevent Short GK Distribution have all been used to try and win the ball back as high up as possible in dangerous areas.

Champions League Counter-Attacking Team Instructions

Work Ball Into Box has been used to encourage the chances we do make on the break to be as clear cut as possible.
Pass Into Space has been used as when we win the ball back we want to punish the opposition by quickly taking advantage of the space left behind by advancing players.
Counter-Press has been used along with the individual player instructions to try and replicate the pressing Jupp used.
Counter has been used to promote countering at every opportunity.
Be More Disciplined has been used so that the team keep their shape and stick to their jobs. We want this deep defensive unit to be hard to beat with no gaps.
Lower Defensive Line, Lower Line of Engagement have been used to keep the team deep, compact and hard to break down.

Sorry if I'm mistaken but isn't the 'Be More Disciplined' TI for creative freedom when in possession of the ball, so how would this help to create a compact defensive unit?

[Pilcs]

22 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

Great read, really looking forward how this will play out. Do you use a mod for the squad bayern had these days or are you trying to recreate it with the actual players?

Cheers. I'll be recreating this with a completely different team. I'll be adapting the tactics to the squad at my disposal, all will be revealed in the third post.

15 minutes ago, gam945 said:

Bayern never played deep in Champions league matches imo

Seen almost every match of the 2012/2013 and never recall a match where they played deep

Against Juventus and Arsenal they were ±high, gainst Barcelona they were neither high neither deep

Bayern in this period had a short-passing fast tempo play, not like Barcelona 2011, but much more direct, IMO.

For the tactics itself, can't help, I'm still in the learning process lol

I'll be honest, the Champions League instructions were mainly based from the two Barcelona games I remember watching back then. I'd almost have to agree with you in a way with the fact they never played "deep" as such however I seem to remember it was more they sat "deeper" and then pressed after certain triggers. Also I think in terms of replicating this in FM in order to be able to counter-attack effectively opposition teams will need to push forward, so the deeper line encourages that therefore leaving space in behind. Appreciate the comments though, maybe i'll experiment with leaving the defensive line and line of engagement as standard in the future.

23 minutes ago, wixxi said:

Sorry if I'm mistaken but isn't the 'Be More Disciplined' TI for creative freedom when in possession of the ball, so how would this help to create a compact defensive unit?

You're absolutely right...  Maybe I'll end up removing that but in my head if say my Anchor Man decided to take things into his own hands and burst forward into the box, that'd leave me massively exposed at the back. If however though it blunts my attack more than helps keep my players in check I'll definitely be removing it. Cheers!

[gam945]

18 minutes ago, Pilcs said:

I'll be honest, the Champions League instructions were mainly based from the two Barcelona games I remember watching back then. I'd almost have to agree with you in a way with the fact they never played "deep" as such however I seem to remember it was more they sat "deeper" and then pressed after certain triggers. Also I think in terms of replicating this in FM in order to be able to counter-attack effectively opposition teams will need to push forward, so the deeper line encourages that therefore leaving space in behind. Appreciate the comments though, maybe i'll experiment with leaving the defensive line and line of engagement as standard in the future.

Also, and I think the Tifo video you posted says it, Bayern 2012/13 had a similar man-marking approach to last year semi-finalists Ajax. They had the "3-1" of the 4-2-3-1 and at least one of the 2 DMs tightly man-marking, and the defense + 1 DM marking zonally (85% percent sure).

[Experienced Defender]

18 hours ago, wixxi said:

isn't the 'Be More Disciplined' TI for creative freedom when in possession of the ball, so how would this help to create a compact defensive unit?

While BMD is primarily an attacking (in-possession) TI, it can have defensive implications in the sense that when you lose the ball, your players will not be out of shape (although this also depends on how you set up roles and duties). Now, when you play on a lower mentality, the BMD may be a bit of an overkill because your freedom of movement and creativity is already kept in check to an extent compared to higher mentalities.

[Pilcs]

On 29/07/2019 at 23:45, gam945 said:

Also, and I think the Tifo video you posted says it, Bayern 2012/13 had a similar man-marking approach to last year semi-finalists Ajax. They had the "3-1" of the 4-2-3-1 and at least one of the 2 DMs tightly man-marking, and the defense + 1 DM marking zonally (85% percent sure).

I don't suppose you know when that was said in the video? I must have missed that.

[gam945]

11 hours ago, Pilcs said:

I don't suppose you know when that was said in the video? I must have missed that.

my bad, it was another video

tactical analysis against barcelona: 

notice the mix of zonal and man-marking, it's mainly in the beginning

 

[Pilcs]

7 hours ago, gam945 said:

notice the mix of zonal and man-marking, it's mainly in the beginning

Interesting at 1:13. "Gomez on Busquets, Ribery and Robben follow the fullbacks. Schweinsteiger follows Xavi and Muller again steps out with covershadow". This is roughly what I was going for by using a pressing forward, setting the wide players to man mark their opposite fullback and by using tighter marking for the AMC and 2 DMs. You could argue I should be using tighter marking along with pressing for the central players but I think that's something i'll experiment with to see how well it works currently.

[milestobudapest]

Has anyone had success implementing this in the new FM?