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Neil Brock

Football Manager 2019 Official Feedback Thread

Biggest downside for this year's FM from your pov ?  

66 members have voted

This poll is closed to new votes
  1. 1. What really annoy you this year while playing FM19 ?

    • Players moaning for new contracts too often
      23
    • Gegenpressing tactic too powerful
      12
    • Youngsters determination decreasing despite tutoring
      10
    • IA still stockpiling players at a specific position/low teambuilding
      11
    • Calendar bug ,only 1 day to recover between 2 officials games, especially a the end of the season (Obviously, i'm not talking about the Boxing day)
      6
    • International call-ups issues (players unavailable for Champions League final etc...)
      5


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7 hours ago, CFuller said:

Are you going to qualify that statement with a proper explanation as to why the ME is "not good enough"? And please don't try to pass off an opinion as "the truth".

Throw ins. Off the top of my head there doesn't even appear to be AI attached. Not good enough.

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5 hours ago, CFuller said:

The Match Engine is not perfect, obviously, but please name another computer game engine that simulates its chosen sport more accurately than FM - if you can.

With a mentality like yours "no one is better than me now. so I shall stop innovating and start sitting on my laurels", football wouldn't have evolved to what it is today.

A next gen ME should be a priority for SI or we'd be stuck akin to having a nice 21st century car design that comes with a 19th century engine.

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This notion that SI don't innovate because they have no competition needs to die ASAP. "Sitting on their laurels" would be churning out essentially the same game year after year with very few changes. That is certainly not the case with FM19.

And why are some people so tied to the idea that SI need a completely new match engine just because there are a few issues? If you found a couple of cracks in the ceiling, you wouldn't demolish your house and completely rebuild it.

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if I found a couple of cracks in the ceiling of my 12th century mansion, i'd definitely be looking into demolishing the house and rebuilding it.

"few issues" Just stick to story telling ya...

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15 hours ago, CFuller said:

The Match Engine is not perfect, obviously, but please name another computer game engine that simulates its chosen sport more accurately than FM - if you can.

The vast majority of motor racing simulators - but then, those are true simulations based on physics engines. The big problem with FM has always been that it is simulating outcomes; it doesn't start from a model of a player's physical behaviour so it has huge constraints around handling people trying odd formations.  This is why I have previously suggested that SI could do with thinking more in terms of 'Inverting the Pyramid' than an engine that just aims to follow what current football trends are.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, priority76 said:

I don't like what happened to kit selection in 19.3.  Teams now seem to play in away kits whenever they play away unless it clashes with opposition home kit.  Rangers vs Celtic and it's not blue vs green/white would never happen.

This is what's so annoying about FM - while it pushes forward in some areas it seem to needlessly go backwards in totally unrelated areas. And SI seem to have Theresa May levels of  stubbornness when it comes to adopting simple solutions like letting the player override the game's choice, which has been floating around as a suggestion for dealing with wrong kit/clashing kit problems for years.

Edited by rp1966

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10 hours ago, CFuller said:

And why are some people so tied to the idea that SI need a completely new match engine just because there are a few issues? 

Perhaps because we can see that every 'fix' to the ME just shifts the problem elsewhere. That isn't just a balancing issue - that suggests underlying flaws at a more fundamental level.

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4 minutes ago, rp1966 said:

Perhaps because we can see that every 'fix' to the ME just shifts the problem elsewhere. That isn't just a balancing issue - that suggests underlying flaws at a more fundamental level.

What do you suggest as an alternative, then? A brand-new ME that SI probably don't have the resources to build because they aren't EA or Konami?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, rp1966 said:

The vast majority of motor racing simulators - but then, those are true simulations based on physics engines. The big problem with FM has always been that it is simulating outcomes; it doesn't start from a model of a player's physical behaviour so it has huge constraints around handling people trying odd formations.  This is why I have previously suggested that SI could do with thinking more in terms of 'Inverting the Pyramid' than an engine that just aims to follow what current football trends are.

It is highly questionably if FMers would react all too well to a "realistic" sim of Football. No less as the more popular Modus Operandi of playing is treading a club like a life-time commitment (when sacked whinge, wash, rage, start over). Whereas real Managers on average barely last 2, 3 Seasons in their Job (same as the game's AI...) -- not seldom sacked during a short- to mid-term "slump" that is almost hard-coded into the rules of a Sports as ultra-low scoring, competitive and thus of fine margins as Football. Similar to a spell of injuries: If a Player was even remotely approaching a Season such as Klopp's last one at Dortmund -- or Zidane's 2017/2018 La Liga Season -- it would be immediately reported as a bug. And considered "unfun". 

Of Course SI know this. Hence the game isn't like that at all. Actually you can lessen the Impact of Chance/ randomness from the get-go. In parts due how defending in the engine works -- in parts due how the AI is coded (mostly reacting to scorelines as opposed to what's actually goingn on on the pitch).

 

edit: As of the perceived "realism" of the ME though: You can't allow (for the AI too) tactical decisions and movement Patterns that you would never see on a pitch of Football, yet at the same time Focus on developing a "realistic" engine. Same as Code an AI that tries to Mimic Burnley from last Season in 9/10 Matches (to exagerrate), yet expect that to Show similar data and Play as to real Football... that's illogical. A Major "makeover" in Terms of realism has to also consider coding more realistic AI -- as well as only allowing decisions that actually happen on a pitch of footie -- AI included (it took me two Matches into FM19 to spot at least some of the same AI Things).

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/25/sports/soccer/burnley-arsenal-premier-league.html

Edited by Svenc

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2 минуты назад, CFuller сказал:

What do you suggest as an alternative, then? A brand-new ME that SI probably don't have the resources to build because they aren't EA or Konami?

What your alternative? Stop any discussion? Arrange a parade every third Thursday of the month?
People just discuss about pressing styles and ways to possible improves, "Controversy served the cause of truth".

What agenda did you come up with in this dialogue?

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1 minute ago, Novem9 said:

What your alternative? Stop any discussion? Arrange a parade every third Thursday of the month?
People just discuss about pressing styles and ways to possible improves, "Controversy served the cause of truth".

What agenda did you come up with in this dialogue?

I'm just exasperated at those users who see that something's not quite right with the Match Engine and immediately say, "We need to rip it up and start again", without thinking about the bigger picture.

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Just now, CFuller said:

What do you suggest as an alternative, then? A brand-new ME that SI probably don't have the resources to build because they aren't EA or Konami?

Not knowing how the engine is built that's difficult to say, but it seems that changes are being made to the way roles operate when there could be a more fundamental issue with how players interpret space and select options. If that's baked into the core of the ME and is not alterable without a rewrite then maybe that is what needs to be considered.  Trying to balance within the current framework has been attempted for a long time now - it's often different in some aspects, but rarely better overall.

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Posted (edited)
30 минут назад, CFuller сказал:

I'm just exasperated at those users who see that something's not quite right with the Match Engine and immediately say, "We need to rip it up and start again", without thinking about the bigger picture.

Well as I understand current ME is wallow in circle of issues. I not sure about English correct translate, but I know this situation as 'Technical crutch'. One issue fixed by crutch which create next issue, which fixed another issue etc.
How old this tool and basis of ME? How outdated are the algorithms, logic and principles of this foundation? I dont know, but unique rare ME still rare. I dont see this like users blame SI (except of some)

I know about detais issue of stadiums without corner tribunes and IMO its a issue of rare tools too. I can find another examples but honestly dont want to public investigation.

In other hand, I can't say to SI that they NEED/MUST to create new ME. I just can say I WISH and сan you blame me for this?

Edited by Novem9

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Just now, rp1966 said:

This is what's so annoying about FM - while it pushes forward in some areas it seem to needlessly go backwards in totally unrelated areas. And SI seem to have Theresa May levels of  stubbornness when it comes to adopting simple solutions like letting the player override the game's choice, which has been floating around as a suggestion for dealing with wrong kit/clashing kit problems for years.

That would be an instant fix to this madness, but to be honest it seemed absolutely perfect before patch 19.3 why they've fiddled with it I have no idea.  It's the old saying if it ain't broke break it.  Come on SI stick it back the way it was before, teams do not wear away kits in all away matches you know that.

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Posted (edited)
On ‎29‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 14:47, jujigatame said:

I really don't think most peoples problems with strikers are tactical issues. Like I said I have a star striker who's scores 40 goals in a season, but if he spent the whole season scoring at the pace he's scored at in the 2nd half, he'd only have like a dozen. And I haven't changed anything tactically.

Btw. this would be much easier to answer if FM would provide Feedback whether the chances he got changed.

We're Talking even as "simple" as:

- How many Players were between the Forward and the Opposition Goal on average?
- How many shots the Forward has were off set pieces / counters /  positional Play?
- Shot spread Analysis graphics showing the Shooting positions that allow you to filter for Dates (all shots between match day #17 and #40), day


But as said, from my experience (the tactical communities prove this every year anyway), if real "slumps" persist the chances have changed.  In shot numbers (which you can check) and/or the Kind of chances. That is, there are largely tactical factors at Play -- your Opposition included. The more "prominent" one throughout the years is that so called "2nd Seasons Syndrom", mainly caused by that the game's AI reacts to team's changing reputations. E.g. a side overperforming now on average Plays tighter defenses rather than it being gifted (visually!) space.  However, during saves there are also a lit of AI manager switcheroos, as they don't last forever at their Clubs. Each AI prefers different traits and formations, which also changes the ballpark. You may have realized that some of them defend the flanks better, some the central zones, etc. 

Which may be one of the reasons why SI are reluctantn to include further Feedback. It would just provide another Edge over the game's AI, as similar to all match Analysis Tools, the AI cannot make "intelligent" use of it. (In formative years SI were reluctant to introduce any Tools at all, as they considered them a "cheat"). In real Football, scoring streaks are oft a tad different...……. (Ronaldo last term scoring 4 Goals off over 100 shots in between September and January, mostly good positions -- and then still rising to 26 in the remaining monhts of La Liga, neither spell predicatlbe in any Kind of way, but then real Football unlike a match engine Code isn't Maths -- bookies should offer bets on FM rather than footie! :D)

Edited by Svenc

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Also I have to say I have a serious issue with injuries this season.  Overall the total number of player-days missed due to injury seems realistic.  But when a player is "injury prone" the game can be absolutely absurd about this.  In his first 8 seasons with me, Richarlison has had 66 injuries.  And he has had 2 more only 1 month into his 9th season.  That is completely bonkers.

You can keep the overall number of missed days the same, but I think the injury system should be a lot more luck-based.  Most injuries are bad luck, not a case of a player having been born with some sort of freak condition that makes every single part of their body prone to falling apart at any given time.

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En 22/2/2019 a las 12:19, PulpoCris dijo:

Hello everybody! I play the FM 2019 and at the time of playing the 3D match, all the managers are bald. I tried in-game editor and didn't work.

Does the same thing happen to someone?

Thanks and regards 

D277DCCE-7FE0-435C-AB06-B46C2FB83AA5.png

Can anybody help me?

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5 hours ago, CFuller said:

What do you suggest as an alternative, then? A brand-new ME that SI probably don't have the resources to build because they aren't EA or Konami?

They change the ME every few years, if i'm not correct they changed in 14 and then 16 and then 18/19. I buy FM every 2 years as they had a knack for improving it's previous fm and redoing stuff for the next. I missed 18 purposely to see 19 being better made and it never happened. They decided to change it's sequence and 20 will probably follow on this and if that fails then I dunno what they'll do. I know it's more complex but 15/17 ME has been great so surely they could use the stuff from there to work around it and make it better unless it's completely impossible to do so with improved graphics,animations, fluidity and realistic features.  

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, BigV said:

They change the ME every few years, if i'm not correct they changed in 14 and then 16 and then 18/19. I buy FM every 2 years as they had a knack for improving it's previous fm and redoing stuff for the next. I missed 18 purposely to see 19 being better made and it never happened. They decided to change it's sequence and 20 will probably follow on this and if that fails then I dunno what they'll do. I know it's more complex but 15/17 ME has been great so surely they could use the stuff from there to work around it and make it better unless it's completely impossible to do so with improved graphics,animations, fluidity and realistic features.  

SI make changes to the ME pretty much every year, but I can't remember the last time they started from scratch.

You might say that FM17's ME was great, but you're probably remembering it through rose-tinted spectacles. My biggest gripe was that cross-shot goals were surprisingly common (they aren't in FM19), and I also thought something was never quite right about winger movement, though I couldn't put my finger on it. You'll also find other complaints from other users in FM17's feedback thread.

Rather than saying FM17's ME was definitively better than FM19's, you can more accurately say it had different issues.

Edited by CFuller

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Crossing doesn't seem overpowered in this OP but it's still not perfect as wide players are super happy to pump a couple dozen crosses per match directly into defenders' legs.

Also deep crossing specifically may still be overpowered.  IRL this is a very low percentage move but in FM19 you see a pretty good number of goals from it.  Fullbacks are not very good at defending the back post.

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BTW the streakiness of finishing doesn't apply just to strikers.  My club who scored 80 goals in the league in the prior season has scored 3 in the first 4 matches in the next season, with keepers averaging 9 saves per match against me.  With middling morale all players (not just strikers) seem to pound the ball into the keeper and the legs of defenders over and over again.

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On 30/03/2019 at 09:43, Dagenham_Dave said:

Every club will have a wage budget regardless of finances. You go wildly over that and it doesn't matter if you have billions in the bank, you'll be restricted with what you can offer players. 

I suspect that's what's happened here, either that or you've failed FFP. 

He means the cap on wages he can offer an individual player is less than what top players want, rendering Man City incapable of landing top players despite all their money. Everyone can agree that shouldn't be the case.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, jujigatame said:

 BTW the streakiness of finishing doesn't apply just to strikers.  My club who scored 80 goals in the league in the prior season has scored 3 in the first 4 matches in the next season, with keepers averaging 9 saves per match against me.  With middling morale all players (not just strikers) seem to pound the ball into the keeper and the legs of defenders over and over again.


Whilst 3 out of 4 really is a rather small sample size (you're some likely to find a similar sequence in a Prior Season, it just didn'T happen to be the first four…): What if they are doing such because in all of those Matches they were struggling for space? What are those shots actually like? Even in simple Terms, where do they originate from? Set pieces? Open Play? Counter attacks? Crosses from Deep? Crosses from the byline? Through balls from narrow angles? Through balls from wide? Header flick-ons into the run of Players? Headers? Shots? Deflections? Perhaps even a bugged one on one scenario that is fired at the keeper like 10 out of times? Anything? What is specifically goingn on in those Matches to begin with? 

By ruling out basically any other part of the game except for morale you will always randomize your results some in any ME/release. There were folk before who never changed a single Thing expect for their Team talks -- every time they dropped a Point, they attributed it to their Team talk (no matter how Long SI argued how small ist effects would be, and how short it would last). Then again, since the game's AI isn't meant to be too diffult, er "smart", you're never forced to challenge anything, so eventually will be back on track either way (unless sacked). I've just seen this thread where it was argued you basically ignore some of the tactical part outright -- which is one of the biggest in the game (to the dismay of some). // As a side.-note, I agree with you that the Chance for/against stats aren't that meaningful, as they are based on stats that haven't ever been that meaningful. Subjective Analysis, experience and Interpretation has Always trumped SI's Definition of what a "Chance" is. In parts because there are all Kinds of attempts lumped together, some significantly better, some significantly worse. But also because it's a subjective definition. For instance if SI decide a Header is NEVER to be counted a "big Chance", as they do btw, so be it. No matter how likely it is to actually be a goal. 

As comparably "vanilla" as the AI is, it knows concepts such as "match Management", that is possibly decreasing the Chance of conceding when already being in front; increasing the Chance of scoring when pushing for a Goal (at the Risk of conceding further itself); chopping  Things up at half time if the result doesn't seem to go its way (multiple Subs included); trying to Keep the Damage to a Minimum so that heads don't fully drop after the trashing is over; or trying to frustrate an attacking opposition. Atop of all, not all AI Play off the same base foundation and formation to begin with. AI does all of this in comparably generic ways, as obviously it can't actually "read a match" (and if SI could Code such, they'd probably quickly lose key staff to other fields than game development). And some stuff, such as a massive tactical switcheroo at HT is arguably more of a pot shot as opposed to an "intelligent" deicsion. Still, apparently, there's reason for its relative "vanilaness". That said, it'd be real interesting to look into morale and ist effects, perhaps with an in-game Editor that allows us to modify.

Edited by Svenc

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1 hour ago, RocheBag said:

He means the cap on wages he can offer an individual player is less than what top players want, rendering Man City incapable of landing top players 

Yes, but that cap changes based on how much you are over the wage budget. 

Might not be that of course, so we need more information. Given no-one else seems to have brought this up however, I suspect the situation has been created by the user. 

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Svenc of course you're right that the sample size is small and I probably shouldn't be drawing conclusions from it.  But it's hard when it just reinforces everything I've seen so far.

Another thing that reinforces my feelings on finishing in this ME is that the vast majority of missed penalties seem like they're drilled straight at the keeper.

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7 hours ago, CFuller said:

SI make changes to the ME pretty much every year, but I can't remember the last time they started from scratch.

You might say that FM17's ME was great, but you're probably remembering it through rose-tinted spectacles. My biggest gripe was that cross-shot goals were surprisingly common (they aren't in FM19), and I also thought something was never quite right about winger movement, though I couldn't put my finger on it. You'll also find other complaints from other users in FM17's feedback thread.

Rather than saying FM17's ME was definitively better than FM19's, you can more accurately say it had different issues.

Surely scratch was implemented in it's first 3d measure right? Also im pretty sure they advertised fm16 as a whole new match engine so I presumed it was but more or less a similar outcome.

Unfortunately not, been back on 17 for a bit now and it seems alot smoother and better in most areas than 19 but obviously not without its faults of course. Winger movement was fine but defence with wingers would make them stay wide leaving the mid wide open unless you implemented a system where a 3 man mid or a diamond/less width would bolster your chances (thought i'd mention it anyway simply because its a short term solution rather than one that is fully rectified). 

Overall it is and im sure many people would agree from those that think 19 is weaker generically. I think the ME is very important if not the most important of the game so to have issues that are big ruining the experience over something quite fulfilling and working greatly without bugs that effect it "Massively" than 19 leads me to this conclusion imo anyway. 

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I know I've been doing a hell of a lot of whining here over the last week but I promise this will be my last for a while.

I've in 2nd place and have only allowed 1 goal in 6 matches.  West Ham are in 20th place and have scored 6 in 5 matches.  I play them away, and they score 4 to win 4-3.  Again, small sample size, but this the type of the result that makes people think there are strange unseen forces at work in the ME.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, jujigatame said:

Also I have to say I have a serious issue with injuries this season.  Overall the total number of player-days missed due to injury seems realistic.  But when a player is "injury prone" the game can be absolutely absurd about this.  In his first 8 seasons with me, Richarlison has had 66 injuries.  And he has had 2 more only 1 month into his 9th season.  That is completely bonkers.

You can keep the overall number of missed days the same, but I think the injury system should be a lot more luck-based.  Most injuries are bad luck, not a case of a player having been born with some sort of freak condition that makes every single part of their body prone to falling apart at any given time.

Not sure I agree with this. Look at a guy like Ruben Loftus-Cheek. He hasn't had a long spell of health in the 7 years he's been in and around the Chelsea team.

It also depends how it's presented. In real life the manager says something like "Ruben isn't in the squad today because we're making sure his back isn't a bigger issue going forward." Technically not an "injury" but in FM this would be presented as one of those orange injuries like "back tightness, 3 days."

Edited by RocheBag

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8 ore fa, jujigatame ha scritto:

I know I've been doing a hell of a lot of whining here over the last week but I promise this will be my last for a while.

I've in 2nd place and have only allowed 1 goal in 6 matches.  West Ham are in 20th place and have scored 6 in 5 matches.  I play them away, and they score 4 to win 4-3.  Again, small sample size, but this the type of the result that makes people think there are strange unseen forces at work in the ME.

It's not about being a "small sample size example".

It's rather about "non-sense logic".

This is not even a feedback to the game honestly and it just put a nail in users brain that games are rigged and FM is ruled by, as you stated, "unseen forces". I admit mathematics is still a mystery for me, but we've passed the line now.

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8 hours ago, jujigatame said:

I know I've been doing a hell of a lot of whining here over the last week but I promise this will be my last for a while.

I've in 2nd place and have only allowed 1 goal in 6 matches.  West Ham are in 20th place and have scored 6 in 5 matches.  I play them away, and they score 4 to win 4-3.  Again, small sample size, but this the type of the result that makes people think there are strange unseen forces at work in the ME.

I really am not sure what you are trying to get at with this post.  Are you saying that because a team at the top of the league travels to a team at the bottom and loses is somehow something wrong with the ME?

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1 hour ago, FrazT said:

I really am not sure what you are trying to get at with this post.  Are you saying that because a team at the top of the league travels to a team at the bottom and loses is somehow something wrong with the ME?

I think he's referring to the fact that westham have scored alot less and they're awful but as soon as he plays them, they turn up to batter him with 4 goals which they've struggled to do in approx of 5 matches. I get where he's coming from as it happens quite a few times in the season that the low scorers end up blasting you with goals that they couldn't do all season. But then again there's too many factors such as tactic/formations, morale (being too confident/complacent) and the fact it's an away game. Then again those "freak games" they have are mostly against the player. 

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Rock-bottom Wolves beating the hitherto undefeated Man Utd 2-1 in 2011 springs to mind.

Sudden unexpected defeats can be explained some (if not most) of the time, but they can be prevented. It's also worth reiterating that the ME doesn't differentiate between AI- and human-managed teams.

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Posted (edited)

One flaw is that it is difficult to find good under 18s or under 23 staff members

when searching for staff there should be a separate option to search for staff that want to to manage for under 18s or 23s

 

Edited by kingking

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5 minutes ago, kingking said:

One flaw or bug is that it is difficult to find under 18s or under 23 staff members

when searching for staff there should be a seperate option to search for staff that want to to manage for under 18s or 23s

 

I just stick an advertisement out cos I don't like using staff search, feels like I am cheating

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, jujigatame said:

I know I've been doing a hell of a lot of whining here over the last week but I promise this will be my last for a while.

I've in 2nd place and have only allowed 1 goal in 6 matches.  West Ham are in 20th place and have scored 6 in 5 matches.  I play them away, and they score 4 to win 4-3.  Again, small sample size, but this the type of the result that makes people think there are strange unseen forces at work in the ME.

If you would follow Football statistically the same way you follow your game, you would notice that in one-offs, much goes. Whilst that instinctively is the prime reason anybody at all tunes in whenever Brighton Play say City (wonders in Football as opposed to Tennis actually DO happen); it's also one of the reasons why nobody in the field of "Analytics" trying to assess performances as well predict future Outcomes puts overly value in isolated Matches -- rather, they're Looking at Things int he longer term. Chance, an undervalued component in Football in particular, isn't repeatable/skill is. Additionally, one reason why West Ham may have scored not overly much may have been their Approach. In the first six games, they may have played mostly away against the big dogs. What is FM's AI going to do in this case typically? So ignoring the Matches and purely Looking at Goals over x games is what bookies encourage bettors to do likewise everywhere -- however, it's a shaky gauge of Performances (plus ignored what happened in those Matches).
http://www.espn.com/soccer/blog/name/67/post/2271195/headline
https://sports.yahoo.com/crystal-palace-lost-frank-de-boer-might-get-sacked-idiotic-143527148.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmRlLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEzItG3tjT0P7ksGj0IBnoDfDB_ErwoRRe4kUicG_w-m4IDfGB5TE1Gh2C8X8bWpZfB_Vn35mXtgHYRtpOHUNraa-198DwgtgpSsMndqFNQfhh23W1hY5Omhrk1MReYgvdxBcdApicUb7Ka9m4t1TpribQbdBI62pWPMvB1z-7N1

Quote

In soccer, the rate at which shots are scored is massively variable. A club might win 1-0 on a perfect long-distance strike one week and then lose 2-1 the next while firing a dozen shots from good positions right into the keeper's chest.


It's hard to make a case as to FM, as you can create gaps on the pitch that in Football typically don't ever exist and that the AI, as it's "limited", at best exploits by Chance once in every Five Purple coloured moons (I'd personally like to see all of that to go). Basically, if it was one those Matches where every shot just went flying in, this will not repeat (in-game, either way). If however you gifted that particularly Fulham AI (the Formation it played, the roles it chose, its general approach) cans of space, it will. I'd had my couple of bogus AI approaches throughout the years, but I couldn't stop the rot until I reacted to them (for instance the 4-2-3-1 narrow in past Releases overloading the centre of the pitch with masses of bodies that were free for all if not specifically countered). Speaking of AI and this space that would not exist in football, the AI in AI vs AI Matches engages in real shenanigans too contributing to wild scorelines quite a bit on the occasions. :D 

qnem5iJ.png


Btw. That Fulham Team couldn't possible been all to good in "morale" shape but still scored a fistful. :P 

Edited by Svenc

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4 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

 I just stick an advertisement out cos I don't like using staff search, feels like I am cheating

fair enough the advertisement feature is actually a nice touch, I will use that

i would still suggest to improve the staff search for future fms

I will make a feature request in the "FM Feature Request" forum

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, FrazT said:

I really am not sure what you are trying to get at with this post.  Are you saying that because a team at the top of the league travels to a team at the bottom and loses is somehow something wrong with the ME?

No, it was more about the 20th place team putting 4 goals past the best defense in the league who'd only allowed 1 goal in the last 6 matches.

I'm not a "the ME is rigged/scripted" person but that sort of result does make it feel like there are unseen attribute bonuses given to teams that can drastically alter the outcome of individual matches.

Although Svenc absolutely has a point that the 20th place team couldn't have had great morale, so I can't chalk it up to that.

Edited by jujigatame

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7 minutes ago, jujigatame said:

No, it was more about the 20th place team putting 4 goals past the best defense in the league who'd only allowed 1 goal in the last 6 matches.

I'm not a "the ME is rigged/scripted" person but that sort of result does make it feel like there are unseen attribute bonuses given to teams that can drastically alter the outcome of individual matches.

Although Svenc absolutely has a point that the 20th place team couldn't have had great morale, so I can't chalk it up to that.

It's one game. It;'s not even a small sample size. It's basically no sample at all.

And just for clarification, there no random arbitrary unseen bonuses given to teams.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, jujigatame said:

I'm not a "the ME is rigged/scripted" person but that sort of result does make it feel like there are unseen attribute bonuses given to teams that can drastically alter the outcome of individual Matches.

If they had a load of space gifted, it was primarily tacitcal though. If just every shot went flying in (Corners, free kicks, etc.) it was something else, including random Chance. Speaking About that "dead last in the table", a thought.

1) They still averaged almost a Goal per match so far (against Opposition unknown)
2) They must not be terribad at all -- the rules of Football ensure that over the relatively short spawn of a Season there will be Serial winners (who win more) and losers (who lose more), as that's what Matches eventually come to mostly (whether closely fought or one sided). You can actually make an Editor Experiment to prove this. The only noticeable difference here to an actual table is in the Goal differenes, as there are no frequent "trashings" anymore. 

Oh, and another thought:

Just because a Team after 5 Matches (!) had conceded little, does not equal to having the best defense in the league. 

nEic6zL.jpg

Is there any part of the game you actually engage in? Tactics it apparently isn't much, man management you never enjoyed statistical or match Analysis... That's not meant to be a jab, but: how do you ever figure out if you played well or if you didn't? Or what is actually going on? (Hopefully not based on FM's final match Reports -- they are AWFUL and mimic the worst Football pundits and press in the world). :D 

Edited by Svenc

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27 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

It's one game. It;'s not even a small sample size. It's basically no sample at all.

And just for clarification, there no random arbitrary unseen bonuses given to teams.

Maybe not arbitrary but there are definitely many unseen bonuses/penalties.  Home/away, consistency, "big matches", morale, motivation, etc.

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26 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Is there any part of the game you actually engage in? Tactics it apparently isn't much, man management you never enjoyed statistical or match Analysis... That's not meant to be a jab, but: how do you ever figure out if you played well or if you didn't? Or what is actually going on? (Hopefully not based on FM's final match Reports -- they are AWFUL and mimic the worst Football pundits and press in the world). :D 

The parts of the game I actually enjoy are team selection, scouting, and watching the actual matches and making in-game substitutions/adjustments.  I used to figure I was doing a good job if the tactics analysis screen showed I was creating many more chances than my opponents, but honestly in this ME chance creation seems extremely divorced from actual results.  I think part of this stems from the aforementioned difficulty of strikers scoring more straightforward chances.  More goals seem to come from flukey and/or spectacular plays than chance creation.  For instance, I just won a Merseyside derby 3-1 and even though Liverpool created twice as many chances as I did, I won by multiple goals and the game basically treated the game as though I won comfortably.

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11 minutes ago, jujigatame said:

Maybe not arbitrary but there are definitely many unseen bonuses/penalties.  Home/away, consistency, "big matches", morale, motivation, etc.

ok, so how exactly did you handle the build up to the match vs West Ham (and the match itself) and thus deal with all of these "unseen bonuses"?

- What did you say in your pre-match press conference?

- What did you tell your players in your tactical briefing?

- What tactical changes (if any) did you make from your previous match?

- What rotation of players did you use?

- What were the Dynamics/happiness of your players like?

- What did you say in the tunnel interview?

- What did you tell your players in your pre-match talk?  How did they react?

- What did you tell your players at half time?  How did they react?

- What was their body language like during the match?

- What was West Ham's body language like during the match?

- What tactical changes did you make during the match and why?  Or did you just carry on regardless (assuming you actually watched the match)?

- What substitutions did you make and why?

So, you mention unseen bonuses, how did you use them to your advantage?

Further - regardless of West Ham's league position they are a decent side, expected to be top half of the table.  A supposed lack of morale at West Ham doesn't turn their good players into bad players, they can still be a match for anyone on their day (as you found out).  And even with a lack of morale, their manager can still get them fired up for the match: "you're bottom of the league, get out there and show them what you're really like" kind of thing.

TL;DR - if you just lost 4-3 at home to the bottom club there should be a lot of learning points you can take from that so you don't repeat your mistakes next time :thup:.  It's 100% within your control.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I just stick an advertisement out cos I don't like using staff search, feels like I am cheating

Indeed. It's perfectly possible at the start of a save to instantly assemble the best coaching team in the division just by filtering and sorting attributes in the staff search. 

Why such staff, who are always superior to your own backroom, are never signed by other clubs is just another example of where the level of challenge in this game needs to be greater.

Edited by rdbayly

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9 minuti fa, rdbayly ha scritto:

Indeed. It's perfectly possible at the start of a save to instantly assemble the best coaching team in the division just by filtering and sorting attributes in the staff search. 

Why such staff, who are always superior to your own backroom, are never signed by other clubs is just another example of where the level of challenge in this game needs to be greater.

Actually this year i see a lot more staff moving around. Not enough, per se, but still better than past games

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2 hours ago, herne79 said:

TL;DR - if you just lost 4-3 at home to the bottom club there should be a lot of learning points you can take from that so you don't repeat your mistakes next time :thup:.  It's 100% within your control.

That's definitely not true, for multiple reasons:

1) I'm only 50% of the equation, there's also the opposition manager giving his own team talks, press conferences, man management, etc.

2) There are other factors (home/away, consistency, etc.) that are not under the control of either manager.

3) The ME by its very nature has a high degree of randomness even given 100% identical start-of-match inputs.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, jujigatame said:

 I think part of this stems from the aforementioned difficulty of strikers scoring more straightforward chances.  More goals seem to come from flukey and/or spectacular plays than chance creation. 

Considering the increase off Goals from set pieces / ranged attempts compared to Prior versions, there could be some truth to that. As for the chances created stat, it's just not particularly useful. It's never been. If kept it should be replaced by something else, as it's disconnected from what the game actually calculates. As said, "headers" are never counted a Chance. Not only isn't that in line with any Opta data etc. models (it surely depends on the Header?) -- it also doesn't matter how likely that Header is to be a Goal in the engine.

That said, IIRC you have a history of puzzlements here. Given your  outlook on Football and your way too simplistic Outlook on the game (it's all mainly morale etc.), that's no much surprise to me. In a sense, the game were better off coding more challenging AI, so that you would be forced to challenge your (false) impressions -- as well as utilize all the Tools at your disposal to get results rather than narrowing things down to morale and different feedback, some of which outside of your control. After all, Prior you were barely ever sacked ONCE (whilst the AI is accross the board), and so may have developed a super low tolerance to when you are in a slump yourself. (Personally, if the game, any game, couldN't simulate a struggle, I'd never Play it ever).  However, the same Thing, improved AI that systematically exploits your simplistic Outlook, may put you off playing, so SI are not gonna do this. In a sense the AI has an "Edge" already anyway, as it only cares About one stat and one stat only -- which is the Goals (or rather, any current scoreline during a match)

 

About the Topic of randomness, given this is football and most football Matches are close Affairs that could go either way most of the time  -- still a good read. FM's Player base will Always be divided on the Topic, as they all see it a bit differently. Plus the possible Impact of randomness is rarely prominently brought up in (punditry) Analysis, as it wouldn't make for a very good Story. However, given that we have playerse on These boards who killed "bad luck" almost entirelly depending on the release (going hundreds of Matches unbeaten), they may see this a Little differently. :D 

 

Edited by Svenc

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1 hour ago, rdbayly said:

Indeed. It's perfectly possible at the start of a save to instantly assemble the best coaching team in the division just by filtering and sorting attributes in the staff search. 

Why such staff, who are always superior to your own backroom, are never signed by other clubs is just another example of where the level of challenge in this game needs to be greater.

Hey sometimes even the AI has to give you a chance. Already FM19 is too easy.

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2 hours ago, jujigatame said:

That's definitely not true, for multiple reasons:

1) I'm only 50% of the equation, there's also the opposition manager giving his own team talks, press conferences, man management, etc.

2) There are other factors (home/away, consistency, etc.) that are not under the control of either manager.

3) The ME by its very nature has a high degree of randomness even given 100% identical start-of-match inputs.

1) You can do a lot with your 50%, your problem is that your simplistic view of the game (as Svenc puts it, and I agree with him) severely hampers your ability make the most of it, this bad management on your part

2) again these are factors you can use and influence, but if you take a simplistic view, you will struggle

3) you can influence that randomness, its essentially what the best managers (in game and in real life do)

Herne has already asked you all the pertinent question (which you seem to skip past) but ultimatelu, you need to have a far less narrow view, something which has been said to you for a number of years now, and take more responsibility, otherwise you'll continue to repeat the same frustrations every version. I'd be very interested in seeing how you approach a game in detail, from build up to post match breakdown

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4 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Herne has already asked you all the pertinent question (which you seem to skip past) but ultimatelu, you need to have a far less narrow view, something which has been said to you for a number of years now, and take more responsibility, otherwise you'll continue to repeat the same frustrations every version. I'd be very interested in seeing how you approach a game in detail, from build up to post match breakdown

Of course I didn't actually bother to answer all 12 of his questions.  I don't remember the answers to most of them pertaining to this particular match and it's not like it's worth anyone's time for me to go back and try to find all the answers.  Especially when I could replay the match with all the same choices and I'd probably have at least a 50% chance of winning.  The methods I use for tactics, man management, etc, are the same methods I've used over the last 8-9 years of FM and that have generally brought me success.  Not immediate "win everything first season" success, but slow, gradual success over many seasons.

Ultimately this may not matter much as this will be the last FM I play for a long time, possibly ever.  It feels like it's become a 2nd job and that I'm sacrificing way too many other rewarding gaming experiences to pump 500+ hours into FM season after season.  So just wait a month or two and you won't have to deal with my BS ever again.

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