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Football Manager 2019 Official Feedback Thread

Biggest downside for this year's FM from your pov ?  

66 members have voted

This poll is closed to new votes
  1. 1. What really annoy you this year while playing FM19 ?

    • Players moaning for new contracts too often
      23
    • Gegenpressing tactic too powerful
      12
    • Youngsters determination decreasing despite tutoring
      10
    • IA still stockpiling players at a specific position/low teambuilding
      11
    • Calendar bug ,only 1 day to recover between 2 officials games, especially a the end of the season (Obviously, i'm not talking about the Boxing day)
      6
    • International call-ups issues (players unavailable for Champions League final etc...)
      5


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4 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I'm 18 matches into this season. Having just watched all my goals scored, 1 of them happened as you described.

Well fair enough, must be just me then, but I can guarantee that a very small percentage of those 14 assists were defence splitting through balls.

 

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6 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

Well fair enough, must be just me then, but I can guarantee that a very small percentage of those 14 assists were defence splitting through balls.

 

About 4 hours ago or so, after I got back home from work, I installed FM14 from my Steam library and guess what: I just loaded up a save I had in the cloud - Schalke 04 and it was sometimes in 2023 right on the match day against Dortmund. It ended 3-2 for Dortmund, but thats besides the point. The actual takeaway from this was: the goals were so so beautiful: defense splitting passes, driblings (real ones, not sprinting faster than the opponent), hold on to ball until the striker overlapped, etc etc. It was lively, it had variety, EXACTLY what every edition lacked EVER SINCE. It is not nostalgia, it is pure joy. I will start a new save on FM14 and play it because I am done with all the new and useless FM implementations off the pitch, while the match engine is so lethargic. SI should bloody stop from adding features upon features off the pitch and focus soley on fixing the current problems in every area. I would pay them £150 for a truly finished game with no added BS. A game that just works, even if it looks just like the previous edition. As a hardcore fan, I DO NOT CARE if you add something new or not, i want it to work flawlesly and have variety, excitement. In fact, seeing FM14 today I realised I ACTUALLY LIKED IT BETTER for the simplicity it had in certain area that today are so so over-complicated. What is the point in adding new features like improved training, dynamics, etc etc if 9/10 games look  and feel the same in the match engine. I will actually record myself one day commenting an FM19 game and I am pretty sure I can predict 85% of what every player will do with that ball: yes, it passes it wide or backwards and then wide again and ... wait for it .... the cross will soon follow. I didnt see this ******** behaviour in FM14. If I instructed my team to go through the middle, they tried their best to find that one through ball that would tear the opposition. In FM16/17/18/19 it makes no difference, because one way or the other, the ball will still be absorbed by the flanks and carred through attack in the wide areas. Never once had I seen in my 100 hours of FM19 a striker that makes a first touch with back to goal that would pass it back to the no10 and play a simple 1-2 which would result in a CCC. I want to end this rant, but it's just frustrating having a worse experience in FM that I had 5 years ago. It is unacceptable to me, but I am a die-hard fan and I keep buying it in the hope that I will get a modern FM that would be so good I won't even care about 3-4 bad years that might potentially follow. I am still spending my money and my hopes are still left hanging. Thank you for listening to my rant. 

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8 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

I wouldn't expect a lot of goals via through balls as it's not as common as people think

You did better than City this season, out of 74 goals scored this season only 2% of those assists came from a through ball.

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/7361/Stages/16368/TeamStatistics/England-Premier-League-2018-2019

Chelsea have been outstanding with 20% of all assists being through ball, i think theirs is the best in Europe at the moment.

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

You did better than City this season, out of 74 goals scored this season only 2% of those assists came from a through ball.

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/7361/Stages/16368/TeamStatistics/England-Premier-League-2018-2019

Chelsea have been outstanding with 20% of all assists being through ball, i think theirs is the best in Europe at the moment.

 

 

Chelsea last night reminded me of Arsenal teams of old in slow motion, always looking for that final eye-of-the-needle pass. In order to pull it off the ball needed to be absolutely inch perfect, the forward run on the same wave-length or timed to perfection. Add into the equation that Utd were absolutely immense in defence as well as being allowed to get back into shape due to a lack of tempo. Smalling, Lindelof, Shaw and particularly Herrera had fantastic games, defensively. 

For me though it showed it is such a difficult style of play to pull off, especially against competent, let alone top teams but even beyond all that, how demanding it must be, week in, week out, mentally to keep preserving with such low percentage football. 

 

Now there might be some credence to the argument of seeing more attempts of this kind of play within FM (although I can't remember many teams in England attempting to play like Chelsea are trying) but the perceived effectiveness of this style of play on this forum seems a bit skewed. It's so difficult to pull off and like in real-life you're going to need great technicians and the complimentary mentals to just give yourself a fighting chance.

 

I'm exhausted just thinking of what's necessary, let alone putting it into action. 

 

The AM/striker movement is a slightly different subject and I concede could do with some improvements. 'Through balls' though - it's an over romanticised notion imo.

 

Edited by Had_Enough

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38 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

You did better than City this season, out of 74 goals scored this season only 2% of those assists came from a through ball.

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/7361/Stages/16368/TeamStatistics/England-Premier-League-2018-2019

Chelsea have been outstanding with 20% of all assists being through ball, i think theirs is the best in Europe at the moment.

 

 

 

I get the point you are making, but that has nothing to do with the fact that if I want to play a certain style I should be able to. Isn't this what football is all about ? Do we all have to play like Man City or X Y and Z ? For me, the beautiful way of playing is as I explained, but for you it might be different, and thats okay. What it's really not okay is for us to be forced into playing wide (ME wont allow any other way, anyway) just because in today's football, the coaches preffer a certain playstyle. If we are using this non-sense as an excuse for a half-baked and half - coocked ME, then why dont we see players doing  dribbles through the center of the field more often in FM ? Maybe, just maybe you see 1 nice dribble through the center / game. IMHO, the reason for that is because the ME has some sort of code that tells players to go with the most simplistic option. And do you know what that one is ? Let me tell you something that you already know: IT'S THE WIDE PASS to an unmarked overlapping fullback. It makes sense to do it from time to time, but it happens way to often and it becomes the go-to, regardless of your tactical instructions.

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2 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

when you observe a way the team plays, it is a bit misleading to look only at assists type. Judging by that one would think Man City plays the same way as Brighton. Most of the time, once you get to assist, hard part was already done. 

what is really important is off the ball movement. that is what creates space and time for an assist to happen. The thing is, FM lacks off the ball movement that would be capable of representing modern football and some people are reasonably unhappy with it. however, it will take some time for SI to sort this to an acceptable level. The problem is much deeper and runs for few years now. However, this year it is more visible as the defensive phase was "upgraded". 

@HUNT3R@Rashidi@Had_Enough

What you just said @MBarbaric it exactly how I feel about it, Just to prove my point that every single FM edition is worse than the other, I just installed FM17, launched one of my best saves and game it a go. Sure enough, see what happens 23 minutes in. If that wasnt enough have a look at what happens at the end of the 1st half. FM13 and 14 were kings in off-the ball movement, but then everything went downhill. FM17 is the last decent version that somehow resembles beautiful football:

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Armistice said:

A through ball doesn’t have to be an assist. It can be as to release a player who will cross, get a corner etc.

I was specifically referring to that cos of the discussion that led up to my point. Someone mentioned not seeing enough through  ball assists.

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46 minutes ago, SebastianRO said:

 

I get the point you are making, but that has nothing to do with the fact that if I want to play a certain style I should be able to. Isn't this what football is all about ? Do we all have to play like Man City or X Y and Z ? For me, the beautiful way of playing is as I explained, but for you it might be different, and thats okay. What it's really not okay is for us to be forced into playing wide (ME wont allow any other way, anyway) just because in today's football, the coaches preffer a certain playstyle. If we are using this non-sense as an excuse for a half-baked and half - coocked ME, then why dont we see players doing  dribbles through the center of the field more often in FM ? Maybe, just maybe you see 1 nice dribble through the center / game. IMHO, the reason for that is because the ME has some sort of code that tells players to go with the most simplistic option. And do you know what that one is ? Let me tell you something that you already know: IT'S THE WIDE PASS to an unmarked overlapping fullback. It makes sense to do it from time to time, but it happens way to often and it becomes the go-to, regardless of your tactical instructions.

Then I can’t really agree with you. I have been playing the 4312, and I wanted to play it in multiple styles. It took a while with my side who are really the worst side to try it with, but the numbers in my game show that more than half of my goals are created by moves in the middle. These could be throughballs played by my playmakers or passes to release my strikers for cutbacks.

It took me a while , first few versions produced football that was too direct and risky for my liking. I think it took me nearly half a season before I settled on a system that allowed me to punch through the middle or go down a flank.

Is it very good, no. I did see a move that reminded me of something I achieved with good otb running in FM17, which was the one touch passing that goes through the middle for a goal. Good movement, poor finish.

I even had a FB play a through ball instead of a cross.  There is still some final third movement I would like to see, but I fear that this would be done at the expense of good defending. I doubt anyone wants to see the overpowered attacking trident or the splitting central defence. 

 

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36 minuti fa, SebastianRO ha scritto:

@HUNT3R@Rashidi@Had_Enough

What you just said @MBarbaric it exactly how I feel about it, Just to prove my point that every single FM edition is worse than the other, I just installed FM17, launched one of my best saves and game it a go. Sure enough, see what happens 23 minutes in. If that wasnt enough have a look at what happens at the end of the 1st half. FM13 and 14 were kings in off-the ball movement, but then everything went downhill. FM17 is the last decent version that somehow resembles beautiful football:

 

while both plays are nice to see, I'd suggest you look at them again paying particular attention on positioning of wingers in blue team. it is really horrible and closing down of three blue central midfielders is abysmal. also, centerbacks are poor at moving out of the back line to pressure the receiver.  you could basically pass around the opposition until somebody got free. still can't understand how people back then defended the ME :D

after fm 17 the SI tried to solve the defensive phase and in fm19 they finally got somewhere in terms of positioning of players. however, somewhere in the process all that movement from your strikers in that video got lost. hopefully SI finds a way to work around this.

 

Edited by MBarbaric

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58 minutes ago, SebastianRO said:

 

I get the point you are making, but that has nothing to do with the fact that if I want to play a certain style I should be able to. Isn't this what football is all about ? Do we all have to play like Man City or X Y and Z ? For me, the beautiful way of playing is as I explained, but for you it might be different, and thats okay. What it's really not okay is for us to be forced into playing wide (ME wont allow any other way, anyway) just because in today's football, the coaches preffer a certain playstyle. If we are using this non-sense as an excuse for a half-baked and half - coocked ME, then why dont we see players doing  dribbles through the center of the field more often in FM ? Maybe, just maybe you see 1 nice dribble through the center / game. IMHO, the reason for that is because the ME has some sort of code that tells players to go with the most simplistic option. And do you know what that one is ? Let me tell you something that you already know: IT'S THE WIDE PASS to an unmarked overlapping fullback. It makes sense to do it from time to time, but it happens way to often and it becomes the go-to, regardless of your tactical instructions.

You're right, the ME can be improved.  Si acknowledge this and are working on it.

Re. the bolded parts however there certainly are tactical instructions you can employ to reduce (even substantially reduce) this issue, so we're really not "forced" into playing in this manner.  Obviously different styles will more or less favour such an approach, but by way of an example there's a very active thread in the Tactics forum demonstrating dribbles, through balls, lots of possession, attacking intent, player movement and so on.  I don't know if that fits in with your particular desired style, but it is an example to show what's possible.  Even if it's not really your style, you may still pick up a new idea or two :).

https://community.sigames.com/topic/465977-developing-my-4123dm-wide-tiki-taka/

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13 minuti fa, Rashidi ha scritto:

I even had a FB play a through ball instead of a cross.

then everything must be peachy :D sorry, couldn't resist.

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@optimusprimal82

you raise a lot of good questions, however, i'd like to point out one thing.

i think nobody argues there are no through balls on counter attacks. the real problem arises in positional attacks where team faces a prepared defensive unit.

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Oh i'm sure there's someone somewhere saying that! :D 

I think my main point really is that it may not actually be the through balls that are the issue - more the tactics used against us? It almost feels like the inverse of the super attacking tactics the guru's kick out each year - you know how many dismiss them/won't use them because they exploit attacking flaws? It's almost like the bottom feeding AI teams have downloaded one that exploits the defensive side of the game and closes out any through ball-esque shenanigans! :D

EDIT: Should have waited actually before I posted - hadn't spotted I have the all-conquering Man Utd (away) next in my save - I ordered a bus to take with me but my chairman is such a useless waste of space that instead of the requested double decker he got this;

Image result for small bus

I'll let you know how many glorious through balls they rip through my team! :D 

Edited by optimusprimal82

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14 minuti fa, optimusprimal82 ha scritto:

Oh i'm sure there's someone somewhere saying that! :D 

I think my main point really is that it may not actually be the through balls that are the issue - more the tactics used against us? It almost feels like the inverse of the super attacking tactics the guru's kick out each year - you know how many dismiss them/won't use them because they exploit attacking flaws? It's almost like the bottom feeding AI teams have downloaded one that exploits the defensive side of the game and closes out any through ball-esque shenanigans! :D

EDIT: Should have waited actually before I posted - hadn't spotted I have the all-conquering Man Utd (away) next in my save - I ordered a bus to take with me but my chairman is such a useless waste of space that instead of the requested double decker he got this;

I'll let you know how many glorious through balls they rip through my team! :D 

indeed, i think somebody somewhere already extensively wrote about very defensive mentality employed by AI. 

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3 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Then I can’t really agree with you. I have been playing the 4312, and I wanted to play it in multiple styles. It took a while with my side who are really the worst side to try it with, but the numbers in my game show that more than half of my goals are created by moves in the middle. These could be throughballs played by my playmakers or passes to release my strikers for cutbacks

Probably the most exploitative formation you can find for this ME :D

No wingers, there's no need, crossing is useless, and they don't score or offer creative threat. Three front players which AI will find nightmare to deal with if his preferred formation doesn't include a DM. Three MCs behind them to make things even worse for AI defending. And FBs always positioned perfectly, usually completely unmarked to receive pass.

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7 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

 

then everything must be peachy :D sorry, couldn't resist.

Only happened like once this season :-( not as rosy I am afraid :-(

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What has put me off FM in recent years is the fact that some features that were added over the years made the game too complex, too much micromanagement, too much time wasted to test and trial things for a game. While some of these features do bring realism it adds another strata of complexity which is not always enjoyable if you’re not an hardcore FM player. I do get that some people feel that they want more control over the club they manage but in my opinion things like training and loads of roles and duties who are similar in behaviour just makes this more confusing and hard. After all I bought the game to have fun, I think most of us did and while I appreciate that I’m put in charge of what a real club might feel like, I do not expect to have knowledge of everything that’s going on the training grounds or managers minds.

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@Armistice I can see where you are coming from. I feel the same way to a certain extent. All new features need screen space which makes the interface cluttered on some panels (not all of them). The choice of skins this year dont help with that either. That purple’ish thing is not a great option because it is brighter than it has to be, while the dark one is too high in contrast on most panels. 

Speaking of training, i think it really needed a revamp, so I agree with a change, but SI really went in depth with this one. This is probably the best thing in the world for some FM players that have extensive knowledge about training IRL, or for the FM players with lots of time to spend in game. However, for the average or new players this bew training system is a nightmare. I got one of my friends into loving and playing FM in 2017. He needed about a year until he was comfortable with the game ( by FM 2018’s life cycle ended ) and when he has seen 2019’s training system, you could have seen sheer disbelief on his face. It was priceless.

The point I am trying to make is that change is needed sometimes because certain features hit a platoo, but lets not go in full bananas. Try to introduce new / revamped features slowly and then act based on feedback.

 

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9 hours ago, optimusprimal82 said:

Stands to reason based on these (frivolous) assumptions that a high number of players are using a high level, high reputation team, which correlates nicely with the oft-spoken theory that "the majority of players" are having these issues?

You are right. In FM19 it is easier to play against a top side and AI has the same issues. I play in La Liga, Atletico Madrid are the second best team. They regularly beat Barca, Valencia, even Real Madrid (Me), but drop points against relegation teams. It happens in real life as well (Liverpool for example) but in FM all top sides have this issue. Barca always end up 25 points behind me because they keep drawing and losing to teas such as Huesca, Valladolid etc. Then they smash Juventus 6-1 in the UCL.

The attacking phase is very problematic in this ME and it is made worse by insanely negative tactics employed by AI teams. Do you remember Mourinho´s Inter vs Barca in 2010 UCL semifinals? Well, that is your bread and butter in FM, your average game against a bottom team. I frequently have games where AI does not even ATTEMPT to shoot, let alone hit the target, and these games include matches against teams of the calibre of Porto, Sevilla, Inter Milan.

By the way, what has happened to close range finishing in ME 1926? Finishing was already poor and I thought they would nerf long range goals, not close range! I´ve already had 2 games where I hit the woodwork 5 times!! I can have up to 20 shots on target in a single game, ridiculous. How often does that happen? World class strikers missing chance after chance, goalkeepers are now super human, we are back to November when the only way to score was from a set piece. If any one believes that finishing was bad in ME 1922, I highly recommend not updating the game at all, at least do not use Beta engine, you will hate it, it is 10 times worse.

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1 hour ago, Martin#2 said:

You are right. In FM19 it is easier to play against a top side and AI has the same issues. I play in La Liga, Atletico Madrid are the second best team. They regularly beat Barca, Valencia, even Real Madrid (Me), but drop points against relegation teams. It happens in real life as well (Liverpool for example) but in FM all top sides have this issue. Barca always end up 25 points behind me because they keep drawing and losing to teas such as Huesca, Valladolid etc. Then they smash Juventus 6-1 in the UCL.

The attacking phase is very problematic in this ME and it is made worse by insanely negative tactics employed by AI teams. Do you remember Mourinho´s Inter vs Barca in 2010 UCL semifinals? Well, that is your bread and butter in FM, your average game against a bottom team. I frequently have games where AI does not even ATTEMPT to shoot, let alone hit the target, and these games include matches against teams of the calibre of Porto, Sevilla, Inter Milan.

By the way, what has happened to close range finishing in ME 1926? Finishing was already poor and I thought they would nerf long range goals, not close range! I´ve already had 2 games where I hit the woodwork 5 times!! I can have up to 20 shots on target in a single game, ridiculous. How often does that happen? World class strikers missing chance after chance, goalkeepers are now super human, we are back to November when the only way to score was from a set piece. If any one believes that finishing was bad in ME 1922, I highly recommend not updating the game at all, at least do not use Beta engine, you will hate it, it is 10 times worse.

there are threads open in the publiv beta bugs forum regarding the lower goals count and attacking movement. I think its best to use that forum. I agree with you about big teams unable to score. For example in a test save with ME1927 City only scored 66 games the whole season!

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11 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

while both plays are nice to see, I'd suggest you look at them again paying particular attention on positioning of wingers in blue team. it is really horrible and closing down of three blue central midfielders is abysmal. also, centerbacks are poor at moving out of the back line to pressure the receiver.  you could basically pass around the opposition until somebody got free. still can't understand how people back then defended the ME :D

after fm 17 the SI tried to solve the defensive phase and in fm19 they finally got somewhere in terms of positioning of players. however, somewhere in the process all that movement from your strikers in that video got lost. hopefully SI finds a way to work around this.

 

Can't really agree those wingers at least try to mark somebody.  MCs horrible positioning still hasn't improved much, new sliders don't necessarily mean improvements in ME.

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@Mitja Agree, i would go even further and say that we dont even know what the AI opponent asked those CMs to do in terms of closing down and tackling. Its evident that they refrained from attacking my players , but in other games they rush me as soon as I have the ball, so I wouldnt say that closing down is horrible in FM17. And as you pointed out, at least the wingers are marking my Wing-backs which are in support duties in my classic diamond.

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45 minutes ago, SebastianRO said:

@Mitja Agree, i would go even further and say that we dont even know what the AI opponent asked those CMs to do in terms of closing down and tackling. Its evident that they refrained from attacking my players , but in other games they rush me as soon as I have the ball, so I wouldnt say that closing down is horrible in FM17. And as you pointed out, at least the wingers are marking my Wing-backs which are in support duties in my classic diamond.

Diamond had traditionally been hard to defend against since it has men advantage in central midfield. I think AI is doing good job there, MCs could be more decisive with tackling and DM looks a little lost but nothing has been improved since.

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@Mitja It has been bard to defend against, but not really that hard in FM18 and FM19 because the movement off the ball and attacking paterns were all about wide areas (just like FM16) and wide areas are the weekest in the diamond. However, in FM17 the diamond does a reasonably good job.

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2 ore fa, SebastianRO ha scritto:

@Mitja Agree, i would go even further and say that we dont even know what the AI opponent asked those CMs to do in terms of closing down and tackling. Its evident that they refrained from attacking my players , but in other games they rush me as soon as I have the ball, so I wouldnt say that closing down is horrible in FM17. And as you pointed out, at least the wingers are marking my Wing-backs which are in support duties in my classic diamond.

why would those wingers defend the flanks when their team has obvious disadvantage (3v4) in the most dangerous part of the pitch (in front of their own goal)? what is the logic there? 

what those wingers are actually doing is being taken out of play allowing the opposition to easily dominate the center. any half decent coach would see that within 10 minutes and adjust. you might like it since it allows some neat football, but it only shows you don't understand how football works. i don't mean this as a dig at you personnaly as a lot of people on these boards think they won CL in FM so they must understand how football works. 

 

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11 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

why would those wingers defend the flanks when their team has obvious disadvantage (3v4) in the most dangerous part of the pitch (in front of their own goal)? what is the logic there? 

what those wingers are actually doing is being taken out of play allowing the opposition to easily dominate the center. any half decent coach would see that within 10 minutes and adjust. you might like it since it allows some neat football, but it only shows you don't understand how football works. i don't mean this as a dig at you personnaly as a lot of people on these boards think they won CL in FM so they must understand how football works. 

 

I see your point of view. The reason for the wingers marking my wing-backs is very simple: they either have been asked to man mark, or they haven’t been instructed otherwise. I get your point and I also understand football. My players were passing relaxed in the middle without posing a huge threat to the opposition ( at least until the last 2 passes that knocked them out). No winger in real life would have rushed in the center if there is no immediate threat against a team who is 2 times better than you and at the cost of leaving my wingback 1 vs 1 against their full-back. 

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12 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

why would those wingers defend the flanks when their team has obvious disadvantage (3v4) in the most dangerous part of the pitch (in front of their own goal)? what is the logic there? 

what those wingers are actually doing is being taken out of play allowing the opposition to easily dominate the center. any half decent coach would see that within 10 minutes and adjust. you might like it since it allows some neat football, but it only shows you don't understand how football works. i don't mean this as a dig at you personnaly as a lot of people on these boards think they won CL in FM so they must understand how football works. 

 

Because somebody has to defend that area eventually. And they do tuck in there to help centrally. But it's the forward too who needs to be a little more engaged there with their DM when opponents have man advantage.

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My Dortmund side are doing quite well doing the second season. So teams starts being REALLY defensive. Like this Zenit-side:

1148310034_Zenitdefensive.thumb.png.cea0ed89a649cb197e08578dd7c31e1c.png

"Ait, boys go for the space at the corner flags!" :D

 

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23 minuti fa, SebastianRO ha scritto:

I see your point of view. The reason for the wingers marking my wing-backs is very simple: they either have been asked to man mark, or they haven’t been instructed otherwise. I get your point and I also understand football. My players were passing relaxed in the middle without posing a huge threat to the opposition ( at least until the last 2 passes that knocked them out). No winger in real life would have rushed in the center if there is no immediate threat against a team who is 2 times better than you and at the cost of leaving my wingback 1 vs 1 against their full-back. 

it isn't about wingers rushing inside. it is all about space. think about it. why is Messi so good? he can do so much with so little time and even less space. The most important thing for an individual defender isn't to win the ball back. it is to delay, slow down and direct the opposition towards less dangerous space. the same applies for the whole defensive unit. it isn't (principaly) about winning the ball back, it is to delay the opposition (to get more men back into position), slow down the opposition movement (to take out the momentum) and to move them towards less dangerous space (this can be towards the flanks or towards the zone where you have more team mates).

the last point is crucial - towards the flanks and where you have more players. The reason is that flank is the zone where the opposition movmement and passing options are far more predictable. Compared to central corridor where the opposition has 360 degrees of movement, on the flanks they have 180 degrees. On the top of that, the flanks are further away from the goal. 

so to get back to those wingers, what they want to do is not to rush into the central corridor to win the ball, but to stick closer to central pleyers in order to reduce the space (and time) the opposition has on the ball. 

/                                                                              / 

/  ML-----------------CM--------CM-----------------MR  /

/                                                                               /

Above line is far less effective at defending than the line below, especially if CM's are overloaded by the nature of two formations

/                                                                              /

/             ML--------CM------CM---------MR             /

/                                                                             /

 

as far as second bolded part... you said everything yourself. 

"My players were passing relaxed in the middle without posing a huge threat" - as soon as you are in the middle you pose a threat to defending team. in fact, you've outpassed them in matter of seconds and got 1v1 against a goalkeeper. I'd be happy to concede 1v1 on the flank anytime  if the other possibility is to concede a 1v1 in the box. also, 1v1 on the flank doesn't need to be a 1v1 as the ball needs to travel towards the flank which gives the defensive unit time to shift over and cover that space. most frequent way is for FB to put immediate pressure on the receiver while the ML/CB  drop into cover.

@Mitja

indeed, striker(s) also need to do their part

Edited by MBarbaric

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@Mitja @MBarbaric Completly agree. I mean, if you look at my 2nd video, both opp wingers have the tendency to tuck inside when the ball is on their side, but  as soon as the ball leaves that area, they go back to the flanks. It is perfectly logical what they are doing. For example, in my diamonds, sometimes I ask my strikers to mark and harass the opposition wingers. 

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13 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

it isn't about wingers rushing inside. it is all about space. think about it. why is Messi so good? he can do so much with so little time and even less space. The most important thing for an individual defender isn't to win the ball back. it is to delay, slow down and direct the opposition towards less dangerous space. the same applies for the whole defensive unit. it isn't (principaly) about winning the ball back, it is to delay the opposition (to get more men back into position), slow down the opposition movement (to take out the momentum) and to move them towards less dangerous space (this can be towards the flanks or towards the zone where you have more team mates).

the last point is crucial - towards the flanks and where you have more players. The reason is that flank is the zone where the opposition movmement and passing options are far more predictable. Compared to central corridor where the opposition has 360 degrees of movement, on the flanks they have 180 degrees. On the top of that, the flanks are further away from the goal. 

so to get back to those wingers, what they want to do is not to rush into the central corridor to win the ball, but to stick closer to central pleyers in order to reduce the space (and time) the opposition has on the ball. 

/                                                                              / 

/  ML-----------------CM--------CM-----------------MR  /

/                                                                               /

Above line is far less effective at defending than the line below, especially if CM's are overloaded by the nature of two formations

/                                                                              /

/             ML--------CM------CM---------MR             /

/                                                                             /

 

@Mitja

indeed, strikers also need to do their part

Both are reasonable arguments. FM17 had a few issues and 1 could be this HOWEVER, it looks like they're playing a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 and the wingers are occupying that space for when or either fullback overlaps. If they come inside and let those flanks free they'll just attack that area. The DM/CM should close down quicker or get tighter which isn't the issue of the user or maybe AI but the attribute and the player itself. In 17 you couldn't do much in terms of defensive changes like width/narrow compared to what you can do now. To me that is very important when seeing these 2 vids especially the first. If im not mistaken the width in 17 wasn't just when you had the ball but off the ball as in out of possession. To me those wingers look like AMR/AML rather than MR/ML as they're not deep enough to cover those grounds a MR/ML would. If the play is central and 3CM's are covering the basis the simple and first thought would be to play wide which the user must've chose not to or the players ignored/chose to do it their own way at the opportunity.  

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5 minuti fa, SebastianRO ha scritto:

@Mitja @MBarbaric Completly agree. I mean, if you look at my 2nd video, both opp wingers have the tendency to tuck inside when the ball is on their side, but  as soon as the ball leaves that area, they go back to the flanks. It is perfectly logical what they are doing. For example, in my diamonds, sometimes I ask my strikers to mark and harass the opposition wingers. 

What??? Gruic and Coqueline are constantly between their wingers and CM's, allowing them to receive the ball and pass it vertically without ever getting close.

Instead, they cover passing lanes towards the full backs that have zero influence on the play. that is exact opposite to what they should be doing. If they were 5m away from their CM's (instead of 10), your Grujic and Coqueline would never be able to trap the ball and pass it towards the edge of the box and they would need to either pass back or sideways. 

Where's that emoji with head banging against the wall ????

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1 minuto fa, BigV ha scritto:

Both are reasonable arguments. FM17 had a few issues and 1 could be this HOWEVER, it looks like they're playing a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 and the wingers are occupying that space for when or either fullback overlaps. If they come inside and let those flanks free they'll just attack that area. The DM/CM should close down quicker or get tighter which isn't the issue of the user or maybe AI but the attribute and the player itself. In 17 you couldn't do much in terms of defensive changes like width/narrow compared to what you can do now. To me that is very important when seeing these 2 vids especially the first. If im not mistaken the width in 17 wasn't just when you had the ball but off the ball as in out of possession. To me those wingers look like AMR/AML rather than MR/ML as they're not deep enough to cover those grounds a MR/ML would. If the play is central and 3CM's are covering the basis the simple and first thought would be to play wide which the user must've chose not to or the players ignored/chose to do it their own way at the opportunity.  

no they are not!!!

"wingers are occupying that space for when or either fullback overlaps. If they come inside and let those flanks free they'll just attack that area." 

So what? flanks are further away from the goal, there is very unfavorable angle, the ball needs time to get to the other flank, the player receiving the ball needs to trap it, get his head up and move forward. By that time, the full back is already near and if the defensive unit is any good, he will also have cover. Besides, the video shows exactly why they shouldn't stay wide - they conceded a goal for crist's sake! precisely because wingers stayed wide and didn't bother to come inside to prevent those opposition CM's from receiving and making a vertical pass towards the edge of the box.

How difficult it is to understand that a pass towards the edge of the box is way more dangerous than pass towards the flank? Especially since you have the video to see it in HD :D 

 

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@MBarbaric We can agree or disagree on what the wingers should have done, but thats not the point of the latest discussion. The point is that someone suggested that the problem was that the ME in FM17 was not good defensively specifically because the wingers or CMs weren’t closing down as much as they should have. The thing is that we dont know what instructions Has the AI used. If the AI would have asked the wingers to man mark or close down that area / men, they would have done it. Same goes for the AI central mids. In conclusion, it’s not necessarly a ME problem, to me its looking more like poor tactics from AI.

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3 minuti fa, SebastianRO ha scritto:

The point is that someone suggested that the problem was that the ME in FM17 was not good defensively specifically because the wingers or CMs weren’t closing down as much as they should have.

i know, I've said that :D

3 minuti fa, SebastianRO ha scritto:

The thing is that we dont know what instructions Has the AI used. If the AI would have asked the wingers to man mark or close down that area / men, they would have done it. Same goes for the AI central mids. In conclusion, it’s not necessarly a ME problem, to me its looking more like poor tactics from AI.

Instructions don't matter. Nor do the positions AML/ML. There is certain rules to defensive organization in football and whatever the instructions are, some basic rules of defending should be adhered to within the ME since this game wants to represent football manager's job on and off the pitch.

The same goes for striker's movement in current FM,. It simply defies some fundamental principles of how modern football is played in offensive phase. akkm made a great post further up that explains it way better than I ever could.

Defending in FM 17 was fundamentally flawed (and your examples show it perfectly). SI has remedied that to a point with FM 19. however, in new FM we got fundamental flaws within offensive phase. it was never really representative of modern football, but it is more evident now since SI adjusted the defensive phase.

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Well it is a me issue since 4141 shape easily defends against any formation including diamonds. But this is specific situation, diamond has always been hard to deal with in FM. Those wingers should have helped centrally much more effectively, DM is clueless there, there's no true team effort, basics of zonal defending are nowhere to be seen. 

But none of the issues hasn't been improved in fm19, defensive width is poorly implemented and for AI it does more harm than good. I liked it more before when defensive width was controlled by d-line.

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10 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

SI has remedied that to a point with FM 19.

How ,with what? With defensive width? With making movement and half of attacking arsenal non existent? With all teams packing 10 men in box? With use of formations that have 6 midfielders? ...

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"How ,with what? With defensive width? With making movement and half of attacking arsenal non existent? With all teams packing 10 men in box? With use of formations that have 6 midfielders? ..."

well "improve" might be a strong word as you can still see teams stretched all over the place on higher mentalites. however, at least there was some work done in that regard. Where it really improved is teams sitting deep, parking the bus. that looks tight and with rgiht shape and vertical/horizontal distances. i'd argue all teams should look like that in their own half with differences for D-line height.

that is one of the reasons  why it is so difficult to break these teams down through possession football. ME simply has no tools to break it down with consistency. @akkm explained that to a great detail in a post above.

Edited by MBarbaric

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Am 23.11.2018 um 13:43 schrieb Martin#:

His composure is 19. The other guy with 19 penalty attribute has composure 15 (eden hazard). Another guy in this forum already complained about penalties. i am changing penalty taker to a dude with 14 and i´ll see what happens. So far I have taken 15 penalties and converted 5.

They secretely changed the code so lower atts make them convert, better just to **** you off. Seems logical.

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6 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

Where it really improved is teams sitting deep, parking the bus. that looks tight and with rgiht shape and vertical/horizontal....

Cant agree here and @akkm post (and other) explains why that's not the case. Not because of good defending but because of poor attacking, lack of quality movement, passing, decision making...

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26 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

no they are not!!!

"wingers are occupying that space for when or either fullback overlaps. If they come inside and let those flanks free they'll just attack that area." 

So what? flanks are further away from the goal, there is very unfavorable angle, the ball needs time to get to the other flank, the player receiving the ball needs to trap it, get his head up and move forward. By that time, the full back is already near and if the defensive unit is any good, he will also have cover. Besides, the video shows exactly why they shouldn't stay wide - they conceded a goal for crist's sake! precisely because wingers stayed wide and didn't bother to come inside to prevent those opposition CM's from receiving and making a vertical pass towards the edge of the box.

How difficult it is to understand that a pass towards the edge of the box is way more dangerous than pass towards the flank? Especially since you have the video to see it in HD :D 

 

I don't think you've grasped what I was saying or I didn't mention it right so ill explain it again but simpler. The wingers have dropped back enough to cover the flanks IF they decide to attack that route (doesn't mean it'll work) but because they are playing central and see an opportunity they take it and the factors leading to the goals are the player mistakes of marking and closing down or even trying to tackle. These are 2 sides that are on the fringes of European competitions, mistakes and goals like this happen in real life. 

Moving on to the hypothetical issue of moving inside for the wingers WHICH ISN'T THEIR JOB NOR ROLE passing out wide is always an option, it's stretching play disrupting their shape. If playing central towards the box is so useful why doesn't everyone do it and in real life?! because it's simple to stretch play and either run to the byline cross/cut back and work it in.  If the wingers were inside then the WB/FB could've easily been able to put a cross in on either side and most of all in a dangerous position regardless of what you think about is dangerous or not. There's a reason why "wide play" is used... 

Then you have to think how they've set up and what their instructions are, if the formation is 4-3-3/ 4-2-3-1 you aren't going to find you winger at a full back position are you unless you change your tactic of either going defensive/cautious or parking the bus which doesn't seem like the case here at all. FM 17 doesn't have the defensive aspects of what we have in 19 nor does it have fairly modern type of what roles and situations where defensive lines can be changed and pressing. In 19 you have aspects of showing formations when defensive even if its unintentional but it's close to what you want so you accept it. Your view to me seems to be naive towards crossing and wide play which is very real otherwise we'd all just shove 10 players in the middle without a second thought.   

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Here's teams parking the bus. There's so much wrong with both teams positions, it's unbelievable. Such situation would never happen in fm17.

3722252b4a5354f117bb00dc8418ed24.png

3705e097da7da670e41ad071a7bc7a6a.png

Want more?

Edited by Mitja

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Issues when AI teams faces extra men in midfield and "wrong" duties assigned. City lost possession battle like schoolboys.

58c78a2a8b4b764a8af169671e8ada34.png

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15 minuti fa, BigV ha scritto:

I don't think you've grasped what I was saying or I didn't mention it right so ill explain it again but simpler. The wingers have dropped back enough to cover the flanks IF they decide to attack that route (doesn't mean it'll work) but because they are playing central and see an opportunity they take it and the factors leading to the goals are the player mistakes of marking and closing down or even trying to tackle. These are 2 sides that are on the fringes of European competitions, mistakes and goals like this happen in real life.�

Moving on to the hypothetical issue of moving inside for the wingers WHICH ISN'T THEIR JOB NOR ROLE passing out wide is always an option, it's stretching play disrupting their shape. If playing central towards the box is so useful why doesn't everyone do it and in real life?! because it's simple to stretch play and either run to the byline cross/cut back and work it in.� If the wingers were inside then the WB/FB could've easily been able to put a cross in on either side and most of all in a dangerous position regardless of what you think about is dangerous or not. There's a reason why "wide play" is used...�

Then you have to think how they've set up and what their instructions are, if the formation is 4-3-3/ 4-2-3-1 you aren't going to find you winger at a full back position are you unless you change your tactic of either going defensive/cautious or parking the bus which doesn't seem like the case here at all. FM 17 doesn't have the defensive aspects of what we have in 19 nor does it have fairly modern type of what roles and situations where defensive lines can be changed and pressing. In 19 you have aspects of showing formations when defensive even if its unintentional but it's close to what you want so you accept it. Your view to me seems to be naive towards crossing and wide play which is very real otherwise we'd all just shove 10 players in the middle without a second thought.���

You are so wrong i won't bother thinkig of a response. I'll just quote this:

Forcing Inefficient Attacking Strategies

Through control of the centre of the pitch, a compact defence can force the opposition into one of the most inefficient attacking strategies – crossing. An analysis by Michael Caley (MC_of_A on twitter) found that headed shots and shots assisted from crosses have a conversion rate much lower than normal shots from the same position (you can find the relevant analysis here). It is a common sight than when the central passing lanes are covered with little usable space within the defensive block, the attacking team will resort to passing to the only free advanced player – the full-back. In a lot of these situations the full-back will then cross from a deep position – the most inefficient position to cross from.

and the rest on defensive organization you can read here:

https://spielverlagerung.com/2015/05/08/tactical-theory-compactness/

7 minuti fa, Mitja ha scritto:

Here's team parking the bus. There's so much wrong with both teams positions, it's unbelievable.

there's nothing apparently wrong from defensive organization point of view on both screenshots.

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Sure that's why Liverpool had 115 crosses in that game. What's that emoji?!

Edited by Mitja

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