Football Manager 2019 Official Feedback Thread

[Rashidi]

57 minutes ago, Svenc said:

dominating shots and possession neither ain't managing, nor necessarily dominating

Just like real life, when people watch the telly and see those stats come out, they need to look at the game and make a reasoned judgement of the match, the reality is that even most "commentators and so called experts" of the game don't get it right, and come up with ridiculous conclusions that people laugh at. There are some who make some brilliant observations, I still remember watch KDB once on the telly analyse a game, you can see he was actually schooled into it. We could all list the examples but who wants to bother. Stats are just raw numbers and they will tell you in absolute terms what has happened in a game, however analytically they can never do that. 

Ultimately people have to look at the game and see what's happening to understand why its happening. It's not SI's job to educate people on how to analyse the game. It's up to the user to educate himself. The tools are there.

[Gorando]

Feels like processing is slower since the last update

[MBarbaric]

6 minuti fa, Rashidi ha scritto:

Ultimately people have to look at the game and see what's happening to understand why its happening. It's not SI's job to educate people on how to analyse the game. It's up to the user to educate himself. The tools are there.

Analysing a football match is a complex process taking days and to expect a casual player to do something like that is crazy. Most managers in real football clubs don't do that and rely on analysts. It is literally different job, and the game is called football manager not football analyst. You are right though, all the tools are in there, and one could really use them to get more out of his team.  However, SI doesn't help a lot. xG has been in analytics for almost a decade now and is used at almost all clubs. It isn't a unified formula (different analysts/clubs use different formula) but it is currently the best way to objectively explain how much has some club been (un)lucky. Why isn+t that in the game? It would be much more clear than shot stats to an average person.

where SI could profit from analysing matches is in beta testing. Actually watching matches in ME and comparing it to how they play out in reality would help a lot with combing out ME weaknesses. Instead, "soak tests show we are on track for number of goals scored from crosses so wide play must be OK" mantra is repeated for years now and wide (or central) play is still not right.

[HUNT3R]

5 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

where SI could profit from analysing matches is in beta testing. Actually watching matches in ME and comparing it to how they play out in reality would help a lot with combing out ME weaknesses. Instead, "soak tests show we are on track for number of goals scored from crosses so wide play must be OK" mantra is repeated for years now and wide (or central) play is still not right.

SI don't just do soak tests. They do that in combination with watching matches.

[Mensell76]

2 hours ago, Armistice said:

but to be fair in beta only the wide play was exaggerated, after they made the 19.1 tweaks, the ME showed more flaws.

In beta the main issue of lack of central play and attacking movement was already there, thus causing an exaggerated wide play. 

Both two issues were easily spottable, SI testers certainly should have seen them. 

But neither of which were:

A) actually spotted by SI pre beta , which appears to be the case, since the tweaks made in me1914 have not bettered the issues at all but had ugly knock ons, suggesting SI was unprepared for the identified issues by this community. That indeed leaves us wondering how the Alpha testing is being done;

and/Or

B) found significant enough for SI to change;

and/ or

C) adjustable by SI without huge reversals or reparations. Now this of course is a worst case scenario.

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Mensell76

[kertiek]

1 hour ago, Seb Wassell said:

It would be very unlikely for your 28 year old captain to pick up something from an average 18 year old, near impossible.

Mentoring takes time, months or even seasons for big shifts. Literally changing someone's personality in a targeted manner is not a brief process 

but now as soon as u put a few youngters in the new mentoring system, their determination plummets hard even if the "experienced player" in the mentoring group .. has high determination, is this working as intended?

[MBarbaric]

9 minuti fa, HUNT3R ha scritto:

SI don't just do soak tests. They do that in combination with watching matches.

well of course they don't only do soak tests. However, whoever is doing the match analysis doesn't know how to do it or the ME is in such a state that there is not a lot of room to improve it. and I personally believe it is the latter as most things being reported are going on for years now.

[Amarante]

21 hours ago, warlock said:

After playing 50-odd games with a variety of tactics, I'm beginning to suspect the main issue with the  ME is the ability to explicitly set the narrow defensive width. It seems like the AI does this all the time, which means that you're usually up against seven, or eight, or nine opposition players in their box. The obvious reaction to this is for your players to move into the wide spaces, and they do. But thanks to the hysteria about crosses during beta, crossing is much less effective than it should be. The result is that wide players dwell on the ball and either play it back (and repeat the process), or hit it against the two defenders who have closed down.

A consequence of all of this is that the number of corners is at unrealistic levels. Which in turn leads to the fact that most goals are coming from set-pieces, or from Hollywood long balls.

As others have said, I think we're one good balancing pass away from a brilliant ME. I hope SI takes the time to get it right.

This This and THIS! Told alot of people the crossing hysteria that wasn't really high because they weren\t watching the games to realize that cutbacks, freekicks pass from the 18 yard to the 12 yard line was all being counted as crosses when they were not. By si TRYING to fi x this they have broken alot of things. 

[KingCanary]

52 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Ultimately people have to look at the game and see what's happening to understand why its happening. It's not SI's job to educate people on how to analyse the game. It's up to the user to educate himself. The tools are there.

It kind of is SI's job if they want people to enjoy the game they are playing. The game needs to still be enjoyable and accessible without needing to read 10 page threads on here or spend 30 minutes watching matches on full.

Edited November 14, 2018 by KingCanary
typo

[ferrarinseb]

Is it impossible to roll back to Beta Released state of ME? 

[upthetoon]

4 hours ago, Vali184 said:

This is what happens when you don't have any competition.

sums up everything. 

the ME is just too outdated and needs a massive overhaul. there have many fantastic new additions like pressing and counter systems etc. but the ME is holding it back.

[MBarbaric]

4 minuti fa, Amarante ha scritto:

I'm beginning to suspect the main issue with the  ME is the ability to explicitly set the narrow defensive width. It seems like the AI does this all the time, which means that you're usually up against seven, or eight, or nine opposition players in their box

 

4 minuti fa, Amarante ha scritto:

This This and THIS! Told alot of people the crossing hysteria that wasn't really high because they weren\t watching the games to realize that cutbacks, freekicks pass from the 18 yard to the 12 yard line was all being counted as crosses when they were not. By si TRYING to fi x this they have broken alot of things. 

the ability to explicitly set narrow defensive width is one of the best additions TC got in recent years. It is how defending works in football. You don't cover whole width of the pitch, you want to put pressure on the opposition where the ball is. 

The problem this created is that the offensive phase is unable to cope with it due:

a) lack of movement off the ball (switching of positions/rotations)

b) lack of individual technique and skill of players, Messi in ME?

c) lack of combination play which involves movement and passing decisions

[Amarante]

3 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

The problem this created is that the offensive phase is unable to cope with it due:

a) lack of movement off the ball (switching of positions/rotations)

b) lack of individual technique and skill of players, Messi in ME?

c) lack of combination play which involves movement and passing decisions

In my Beta save i played with a Narrow width when defending and wider width when attacking. 

When i defended, i conceded the space outwide to protect my 18 yard box to force the attack wider because i know i can deal with the crosses and i had players that will close down long short opportunity. What made me scared was when i came up against teams that would pass the ball and rotate it and they literally passed my defense into opening space for them. 

While i attacked in the BETA, my PF linked well with my two midfielders, i had one two between my inside forwards and striker along with fullbacks joining in on the fun. 

For once i was able to play Short passing+high tempo+wide width. I can say that through ball from the center wasn\t happening frequently enough but there was movement. 

When teams play narrow, we rely on passing and movement to open them up,  When teams go wide that should force the AI to send at least one player outwide to close them down which will then open space for a next player to move into and receive a pass or a cross which in return forces a next player to move. 

If SI can fix the off the ball movement of players we will be getting back to perfection. 

[Mitja]

47 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

well of course they don't only do soak tests. However, whoever is doing the match analysis doesn't know how to do it or the ME is in such a state that there is not a lot of room to improve it. and I personally believe it is the latter as most things being reported are going on for years now.

idon'think there's no room for improvements it's something alse. things that were implemented decently two years ago are now even worse for example.

[Mitja]

29 minutes ago, Amarante said:

For once i was able to play Short passing+high tempo+wide width. I can say that through ball from the center wasn\t happening frequently enough but there was movement. 

If SI can fix the off the ball movement of players we will be getting back to perfection. 

there was no difference just like now in passing styles only the opposite, you could play highest tempo + pass into space or slowest tempo and short passing, it was the same. all passes were ground and into feet. not to mention that even more goals came from crosses and there were like 50 crosses each game at least.

instead of trying to fix true issues that are causing crossing issue (which are off the ball movement and defending) for 4 years now, they went for quick fix.

[LucasBR]

30 minutes ago, Amarante said:

While i attacked in the BETA, my PF linked well with my two midfielders, i had one two between my inside forwards and striker along with fullbacks joining in on the fun. 

Perfect! Im having a LOT of problems with my strikers and IF or W and midfields, they dont link, a lot of space and long shots far away from the net.

[Mensell76]

3 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

And of course it's tested. Do you really think the public beta is the first time it gets tested?

Your rhetorical question, which should not be answered to be honest since everyone here understands that the ME was tested by SI, leads to a question to you:

Do you really think that the Beta ME was a great candidate to release to the masses, with the easily identifiable issues?

The fact that match testing was done does not mean it was done properly. I often agree with your writings on here. But no matter how you spin it, lack of attacking movement and center play should always have been noticed since SI has put so much time and effort in the transitional phases of play.

Cheers!

 

[themadsheep2001]

6 minutes ago, Mensell76 said:

Your rhetorical question, which should not be answered to be honest since everyone here understands that the ME was tested by SI, leads to a question to you:

Do you really think that the Beta ME was a great candidate to release to the masses, with the easily identifiable issues?

The fact that match testing was done does not mean it was done properly. I often agree with your writings on here. But no matter how you spin it, lack of attacking movement and center play should always have been noticed since SI has put so much time and effort in the transitional phases of play.

Cheers!

 

Again, and it's a more than a little frustrating repeating the same thing: noticing something is not the same as fixing it. Some times you have to go with the deadline and then come back to it. It's not ideal, or what you'd like, but it is what can happen. 

So again, it's utterly bizarre to see people passing judgement with absolute certainty on things they just don't know about. 

[bar333]

3 hours ago, Piperita said:

At the topic of the match engine: Personally I still really, really like it. Mainly because I'm the odd guy playing a pretty defensive, counter-based system and the current engine finally makes it fun and viable after the countless of frustrating hours in FM17 trying to establish something similar. 

From what I gathered at reading many tactic threads and from more 'casual' players, there's a big market in big teams with dominating tactics. Sometimes it felt like the game was pushing this even more and making the defensive side a somewhat sidenote. (I'm also not over my assistnts constantly telling me to retain possession when the system clearly was not set up for it)

Now the game feels more engaging for people like me because I have more options to establish 'my' game. Sure, some attacks don't work like they used to but I'm glad for the alternatives and the variety of play. 

It also isn't as volatile as in the early beta days but still puts a good amount of focus on the mental stats and 'feelings' of a player. Singular big errors, opportune goals or unfortunate conceded goals, players out of their depth or riding on high still can turn everything around. 

That makes this also a good game for gamblers and a more risky one for youth fanatics: 3 goals down at halftime does not make the second one pure garbage time. Changes and a good speech and it is still on. One dumb error or bad luck though and it can become embarassing. Similarly 2 goals by the 80 minute mark does not mean one can replace their midfield with their youth prospects because it will(!) be exploited! 

Four things that stood out for me: 

• NNCs feel really, really strong right now. Their long clearances way, way too often find my lone striker or IW(A) despite the attribites suggesting otherwise.
• I love how consistently and intelligently wide players move inside when the play is on the other side of the pitch. 
• Striker roles. Just striker roles. I still struggle to read the game for the best ones but now I feel way more comfortable just switching roles here instead of subbing or revamping the entire tactics. What difference that can make is phenomenal!
• Way too mamy hits on the woodwork. On average two two three per game which seems excessive. 

One of my problems in presentation is just how my vision and the game's definition of 'clear cut chance' do not match up. At all. 

I thought that 'big club tactics' and the fact that opposition parks the bus against may be a part of it when I started my first FM19 save with Liverpool (although I can't see why the experience would be so different from previous FM's, teams playing very negative football against the top sides has been a thing forever in FM), but then I went and started a save with Dynamo Dresden, a mid table second division team in Germany. I wasn't even trying to go for expansive, free flowing football but to play a high tempo, counter attacking game with a focus on solid defence (low block, narrow defending, no crazy roles at the back, an anchorman in DM, a focus on defensive shape over pressing) and I was still faced with an unsatisfying ME experience.

The one thing I found really striking is just how incredibly similar my matches played out to what I experienced with Liverpool where I used a different formation and entirely different tactic - short passing, intense pressing, more expressive roles and duties etc. I was left feeling like this ME can only produce 2 or 3 types of goals with any kind of consistency regardless of tactics, and those are - goals from set pieces, cross -> tap in or header, long ball over to the top. No amount of tweaks with Liverpool created a good and intricate central passing play and no amount of tweaks created the quick counter attacking style I wanted with Dresden.

On your last point, CCC's haven't made sense in years. Many 1v1's with the GK are not classified as CCC's while random difficult headers are. It's a busted system.

[Mitja]

25 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Again, and it's a more than a little frustrating repeating the same thing: noticing something is not the same as fixing it. Some times you have to go with the deadline and then come back to it. It's not ideal, or what you'd like, but it is what can happen. 

So again, it's utterly bizarre to see people passing judgement with absolute certainty on things they just don't know about. 

first you are being assured how it takes long time to test such things properly but at the same time you put out new me, just days before official release, with quick fix which only makes things worse.  

[Mensell76]

31 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Again, and it's a more than a little frustrating repeating the same thing: noticing something is not the same as fixing it. Some times you have to go with the deadline and then come back to it. It's not ideal, or what you'd like, but it is what can happen. 

So again, it's utterly bizarre to see people passing judgement with absolute certainty on things they just don't know about. 

Thanks for indirectly stating that SI had actually noticed the flaws but due to deadline they had to release the ME anyway. That actually is more forthcoming that I anticipated. I am deeply sorry for questioning SI's ability *takes a humble bow*

Now if you could be so kind to point me in the direction of SI notifying us on the eve of beta release of ME issues they had already indentified and that they were a) in the midst of rebalancing b) not in need of massive help or c) could use an unbiased extra set of eyes? That could have saved some of use heaps of time in opening threads, sending in pkm's etcetera. Because in all honesty, SI seemed completely surprised at first and then needing to first go through the process of reviewing if there was an issue.

Furthermore could you point out where exactly SI has replied after we had started opening threads and providing examples that they were actually already aware of the lack of movement issue. Again I must have missed that and apologize sincerely to everyone here since I apparentely have been passing too much judgement already.

If what you say is true, it yet agains shows the lack of insightful communication (knowing issues already and then just letting your paying customers spend 100+ hours of time proving what you already know would be an incredible form of disrespect) by SI towards its dedicated fanbase, you know the people who actually give a toss about the future of the game and the status of the ME. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Mensell76

[themadsheep2001]

16 minutes ago, Mensell76 said:

Thanks for indirectly stating that SI had actually noticed the flaws but due to deadline they had to release the ME anyway. That actually is more forthcoming that I anticipated. I am deeply sorry for questioning SI's ability *takes a humble bow*

Now if you could be so kind to point me in the direction of SI notifying us on the eve of beta release of ME issues they had already indentified and that they were a) in the midst of rebalancing b) not in need of massive help or c) could use an unbiased extra set of eyes? That could have saved some of use heaps of time in opening threads, sending in pkm's etcetera. Because in all honesty, SI seemed completely surprised at first and then needing to first go through the process of reviewing if there was an issue.

Furthermore could you point out where exactly SI has replied after we had started opening threads and providing examples that they were actually already aware of the lack of movement issue. Again I must have missed that and apologize sincerely to everyone here since I apparentely have been passing too much judgement already.

If what you say is true, it yet agains shows the lack of insightful communication (knowing issues already and then just letting your paying customers spend 100+ hours of time proving what you already know would be an incredible form of disrespect) by SI towards its dedicated fanbase, you know the people who actually give a toss about the future of the game and the status of the ME. 

I've got little time for facetiousness Mensell, so feel free to continue beta testing, or don't. Meanwhile SI and the rest of those doing the beta will carry on. 

If you want to know why SI don't hand out more information, it's because they would end up wasting hours having to needlessly justify themselves to people who don't really understand what they do, when they could just get on with it. 

[Mensell76]

21 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

If you want to know why SI don't hand out more information, it's because they would end up wasting hours having to needlessly justify themselves to people who don't really understand what they do, when they could just get on with it. 

In a nutshell the corperate vision on communication with people who do not know what they do (with they I assume you mean SI). But still: Dumbstruck..….baffled…..flabbergasted.

[KingCanary]

57 minutes ago, bar333 said:

On your last point, CCC's haven't made sense in years. Many 1v1's with the GK are not classified as CCC's while random difficult headers are. It's a busted system.

Is that still there? I'm still on 17 and found the weird 'second ball headers are CCC's' odd in there, so disappointed if that still exists.

[VP.]

What was today's 150mb update?

[Vali184]

Are we going to acknowledge that, in 4 patches, SI didn't fix a simple mistake like the default attacking corner routine where the central defenders stay back instead of the fullbacks?

Edited November 14, 2018 by Vali184

[fidelitywars]

16 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I've got little time for facetiousness Mensell, so feel free to continue beta testing, or don't. Meanwhile SI and the rest of those doing the beta will carry on. 

If you want to know why SI don't hand out more information, it's because they would end up wasting hours having to needlessly justify themselves to people who don't really understand what they do, when they could just get on with it. 

Sorry if i'm intruding on a feud here but this doesn't seem especially fair to me; Mansell has evidently put a lot of time into logging issues within the ME and as far as I understand, nobody from SI has disputed the validity of these. As somebody frustrated by the same issues, i'd argue that Mansell's points are valid - these issues were evident almost immediately so it does seem strange that they were not noticed in testing. Rightly or wrongly, matters like this do give the impression that SI's testers focus more on ensuring that goal numbers tally with reality without really analysing how these goals come about.

The bottom line quoted above does read as being a little arrogant and dismissive; users are obviously going to question why a game retailing at around £35 is put into production despite having what appear to be obvious issues. It's also demonstrably untrue; SI can't be simultaneously 'just getting on with it' whilst opening up their development for user feedback via the public beta (which I don't mean to dismiss, think that's a great idea).

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, fidelitywars said:

Sorry if i'm intruding on a feud here but this doesn't seem especially fair to me; Mansell has evidently put a lot of time into logging issues within the ME and as far as I understand, nobody from SI has disputed the validity of these. As somebody frustrated by the same issues, i'd argue that Mansell's points are valid - these issues were evident almost immediately so it does seem strange that they were not noticed in testing. Rightly or wrongly, matters like this do give the impression that SI's testers focus more on ensuring that goal numbers tally with reality without really analysing how these goals come about.

The bottom line quoted above does read as being a little arrogant and dismissive; users are obviously going to question why a game retailing at around £35 is put into production despite having what appear to be obvious issues. It's also demonstrably untrue; SI can't be simultaneously 'just getting on with it' whilst opening up their development for user feedback via the public beta (which I don't mean to dismiss, think that's a great idea).

Theres not feud, just a frustration answering the same questions about the same things, but people either unwilling or unable to accept it. 

 

And yes they can do both, by offering up information when they have something to offer. But this seems to not be enough for some people. 

[Amarante]

Just to let everyone know. Every game is released with bugs, problems, glitches that are only fixed  after release. Let me revise that every software are released this way. What you guys don't get is that SI has to not only be testing how the game runs on many different machines but everything in the ME, how the AI does this and that etc. They are a small studio with a limited amount of persons, so you lot might be saying hey how this wasn't so obivous but when you have a million things to be watching and testing and tuning other things will escape and thats why there is a bug reporting section.

They know that they will not notice everything thats a given.  So questioning the ability of the testers and SI for not spotting bugs is really disrespectful especially if you've never written a line of code or even possesses the skills to be able to fix the issue. 

Like i\ve always stated before and will always state, people who have no idea how these things are made will never truly understand the depth and complexity it takes to fix or prevent issues. 

[Mensell76]

15 minutes ago, fidelitywars said:

Sorry if i'm intruding on a feud here but this doesn't seem especially fair to me; Mansell has evidently put a lot of time into logging issues within the ME and as far as I understand, nobody from SI has disputed the validity of these. As somebody frustrated by the same issues, i'd argue that Mansell's points are valid - these issues were evident almost immediately so it does seem strange that they were not noticed in testing. Rightly or wrongly, matters like this do give the impression that SI's testers focus more on ensuring that goal numbers tally with reality without really analysing how these goals come about.

The bottom line quoted above does read as being a little arrogant and dismissive; users are obviously going to question why a game retailing at around £35 is put into production despite having what appear to be obvious issues. It's also demonstrably untrue; SI can't be simultaneously 'just getting on with it' whilst opening up their development for user feedback via the public beta (which I don't mean to dismiss, think that's a great idea).

Thanks for your eloquent supporting post. 

As far as I am concerned there is no personal feud. Due to the nature of dismissive and defensive posts by mod in question I took up the glove to countervoice in behalf of the dedicated forum members here, which in itself is an arrogant action on my part.

I do however believe he and I both knew at first that in fact we were having a bigger than us discussion which did however end up in another dismissive post directed to me personally and us in general as well. 

That is where I draw the line for myself. So, Again thanks for your support in this case.

 

[fidelitywars]

6 minutes ago, Amarante said:

Just to let everyone know. Every game is released with bugs, problems, glitches that are only fixed  after release. Let me revise that every software are released this way. What you guys don't get is that SI has to not only be testing how the game runs on many different machines but everything in the ME, how the AI does this and that etc. They are a small studio with a limited amount of persons, so you lot might be saying hey how this wasn't so obivous but when you have a million things to be watching and testing and tuning other things will escape and thats why there is a bug reporting section.

They know that they will not notice everything thats a given.  So questioning the ability of the testers and SI for not spotting bugs is really disrespectful especially if you've never written a line of code or even possesses the skills to be able to fix the issue. 

Like i\ve always stated before and will always state, people who have no idea how these things are made will never truly understand the depth and complexity it takes to fix or prevent issues. 

Yeah, of course - I actually work in this field so appreciate that nothing is ever implemented without at least a few known bugs and then inevitably, plenty more that are only uncovered after release so hotfixes/maintenance releases are inevitably scheduled. However, the ME is obviously the centre of FM's universe - new features are great but ultimately, every year the game sells due to the updated database and the ME - so if there are issues so fundamental within the ME, customers will very obviously make noise. That has to be expected. The complexity of resolving issues isn't ultimately the customers' concern/problem (as i'm frequently reminded of...) - they just want to experience the product they thought they'd bought. Surely that's understandable?

[Amarante]

1 minute ago, fidelitywars said:

Yeah, of course - I actually work in this field so appreciate that nothing is ever implemented without at least a few known bugs and then inevitably, plenty more that are only uncovered after release so hotfixes/maintenance releases are inevitably scheduled. However, the ME is obviously the centre of FM's universe - new features are great but ultimately, every year the game sells due to the updated database and the ME - so if there are issues so fundamental within the ME, customers will very obviously make noise. That has to be expected. The complexity of resolving issues isn't ultimately the customers' concern/problem (as i'm frequently reminded of...) - they just want to experience the product they thought they'd bought. Surely that's understandable?

Understandable of course but there's a line that you don\t cross that has been cross many times in this topic. 

[Mitja]

3 minutes ago, fidelitywars said:

Yeah, of course - I actually work in this field so appreciate that nothing is ever implemented without at least a few known bugs and then inevitably, plenty more that are only uncovered after release so hotfixes/mantenance releases are inevitably scheduled. However, the ME is obviously the centre of FM's universe - new features are great but ultimately, every year the game sells due to the updated database and the ME - so if there are issues so fundamental within the ME, customers will very obviously make noise. That has to be expected. The complexity of resolving issues isn't ultimately the customers' concern/problem (as i'm frequently reminded of...) - they just want to experience the product they thought they'd bought. Surely that's understandable?

AMEN 

 

[Mitja]

6 minutes ago, Amarante said:

Understandable of course but there's a line that you don\t cross that has been cross many times in this topic. 

enough talking about crosses i'm sure SI will do it right this time

[themadsheep2001]

33 minutes ago, fidelitywars said:

Yeah, of course - I actually work in this field so appreciate that nothing is ever implemented without at least a few known bugs and then inevitably, plenty more that are only uncovered after release so hotfixes/maintenance releases are inevitably scheduled. However, the ME is obviously the centre of FM's universe - new features are great but ultimately, every year the game sells due to the updated database and the ME - so if there are issues so fundamental within the ME, customers will very obviously make noise. That has to be expected. The complexity of resolving issues isn't ultimately the customers' concern/problem (as i'm frequently reminded of...) - they just want to experience the product they thought they'd bought. Surely that's understandable?

Frustration is understandable, but getting annoyed at honest answers from SI and moderators is equally frustrating. You might disagree with SI's methods if communication, but ultimately they need to do what is best for them to deliver the best product. And giving an honest answer on that is not dismissive. And people deliberately misreading that t as so will find SI will spend less time communicating as the reward won't end up being worth the effort. Just have a look at how Neil's words were immediately twisted in another thread. It's exactly why many SI members already don't visit general discussion 

[Kazza]

Whilst I appreciate the effort put in by a number of the fans I do think that there is an over tendency to get too personal. At the end of the day it is a game. Albeit for some important but for the vast majority, not so.

Communication is more complex than people think it is. If you have nothing to say and say that, then you get attacked for lack of perceived action. If you say something akin to still progressing then you get attacked for lack of detailed information. SI cannot do right for doing wrong with some forum members.

As I have said before and will again, I appreciate the forum guys who put a lot of effort and therefore get frustrated  but I do not appreciate a handful on here you just try and do smart a**e one liners. Believe me they are not smart and not funny, you know who you are!

I come on here to see what is developing and try to contribute, even though compared to others my lack of knowledge shines through. MY plea is if you got nothing constructive to say, say nothing, you will do yourself a great service.

 

To the moderators, take a deep breath and continue with our exemplary attitude. The vast majority of us support your endeavours, especially around release time!!  

[Double Indemnity]

7 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

It would be very unlikely for your 28 year old captain to pick up something from an average 18 year old, near impossible.

Mentoring takes time, months or even seasons for big shifts. Literally changing someone's personality in a targeted manner is not a brief process 

That's good to hear. I guess I just have to break my obsession with having "perfect" personalities in my squad. I've transfer-listed people for not progressing past Fairly Professional/Media-Friendly by 24 years old before... Or just for being "Outspoken." The idea of harming an established first teamer's personality by exposing them to less professional/determined kids doesn't bear thinking about.

[SammyRai]

I was excited for this years version, first time in a long time, I played FM18 and 17 etc before it, but this one I was excited for. Some actually innovation seemed to take place for this version. I couldn't be more disappointed. The ME balance is hideous for some many reasons already listed here.

I work for a software company who have no direct comptetion, believe me, I know what that does. I don't want to sound like a negative nancy, but SI need competition, we're just at pure stagnation at this point.

The cycle is the same every year. The intial release is borked and a step back from the one before. We go almost an entire year until it's actually pretty legit, but still with issues, it's no longer being worked on at this point - new release comes around same cycle. Never having a game that's actually repsectable in the way it works from a technical standpoint.

 

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, Kazza said:

Whilst I appreciate the effort put in by a number of the fans I do think that there is an over tendency to get too personal. At the end of the day it is a game. Albeit for some important but for the vast majority, not so.

Communication is more complex than people think it is. If you have nothing to say and say that, then you get attacked for lack of perceived action. If you say something akin to still progressing then you get attacked for lack of detailed information. SI cannot do right for doing wrong with some forum members.

As I have said before and will again, I appreciate the forum guys who put a lot of effort and therefore get frustrated  but I do not appreciate a handful on here you just try and do smart a**e one liners. Believe me they are not smart and not funny, you know who you are!

I come on here to see what is developing and try to contribute, even though compared to others my lack of knowledge shines through. MY plea is if you got nothing constructive to say, say nothing, you will do yourself a great service.

 

To the moderators, take a deep breath and continue with our exemplary attitude. The vast majority of us support your endeavours, especially around release time!!  

And sadly, and it has been said before over the years, it is partly why some devs have withdrawn a little from GD. Why give an honest answer, if you're going to get lambasted for it?

[RobertPage]

2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

And sadly, and it has been said before over the years, it is partly why some devs have withdrawn a little from GD. Why give an honest answer, if you're going to get lambasted for it?

People spend a lot of time reporting issues that shouldn't be making their way into the full release of the game. Thats why.

[Kazza]

4 minutes ago, RobertPage said:

People spend a lot of time reporting issues that shouldn't be making their way into the full release of the game. Thats why.

You sir have just done a fine example of what we are talking about. One line,  purportedly agreeing to criticise SI because they do not do what you and others think they should do , no back up to  explain why and wherefores or apparently understanding of coding or complexities of the game and so on and so on!! Sigh

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Kazza

[themadsheep2001]

5 minutes ago, RobertPage said:

People spend a lot of time reporting issues that shouldn't be making their way into the full release of the game. Thats why.

Bugs will exist, that's a fact. They And that's never an excuse or an entitlement to have a pop at people the way some do here. And in all honest truth, if people make the forums such a hostile place that devs don't want to stick their heads above the parapet here, I hope people understand that we as moderators will absolutely do what's necessary to change that. 

[RobertPage]

1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Bugs will exist, that's a fact. They And that's never an excuse to have a pop at people the way some do here. And in all honest truth, if people make the forums such a hostile place that devs don't want to stick their heads above the parapet here, I hope people understand that we as moderators will do what's necessary to change that 

I 100% understand that bugs will exist. If a game is going to have problems that are so complex to fix that they'll last for years, then maybe it'd be better idea to not release the game yearly. Now, i also understand why yearly releases are important financially to SI but again, there needs to be openness from devs if issues wont be fixed from previous years, for a brand new game. I go back to my previous comment. People spend a hell of a lot of time giving feedback in these forums and uploading pkms and save files. Posting them and getting nothing back is frustrating. Its 100%  important mods to their best to keep control, but that doesn't excuse the devs to hide away. There needs to be more openness from them with match engine problems as they're often complex and time for fix. As said previously by a user. The match engine is the centre of FM's universe

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, RobertPage said:

I 100% understand that bugs will exist. If a game is going to have problems that are so complex to fix that they'll last for years, then maybe it'd be better idea to not release the game yearly. Now, i also understand why yearly releases are important financially to SI but again, there needs to be openness from devs if issues wont be fixed from previous years, for a brand new game. I go back to my previous comment. People spend a hell of a lot of time giving feedback in these forums and uploading pkms and save files. Posting them and getting nothing back is frustrating. Its 100%  important mods to their best to keep control, but that doesn't excuse the devs to hide away. There needs to be more openness from them with match engine problems as they're often complex and time for fix. As said previously by a user. The match engine is the centre of FM's universe

Devs will never give a list, because that is ever changing for a myriad of reasons. Will almost never happen. And it's not the devs job to berated about complacency and competition when those who do so don't really understand what they do anyway 

And they repeatedly have said, both directly and through moderators, that Me fixes are complex and require time. But, and again I've repeated myself on this so many times its like groundhog day, some are simply not listening. 

[jimmywils]

I only really visit these forums around this time every year and every year I see the same arguments/comments. 'This is the worst ME ever', 'SI dont care about its fanbase' etc etc. Some members heads are so big im surprised they can get in their cars/on the bus every morning. The sense of entitlement is nuts. The simple fact that we have an official forum to voice our gripes (and I have in the past) and the fact that the forum is monitored and responses given is a huge plus.

Every year we get updates (database or fixes) and we have become accustomed to this as a given. SI are under no obligation to do this, as far as I am aware.

Yes its frustrating that we paid £xxx for a game and that game is not doing what we think it should be doing but I know several folk who are loving it and are oblivious to the ME flaws.

Im in the middle. I can play it and am enjoying it to a degree but at the back of my mind I know I could enjoy it more.....

 

[RobertPage]

10 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Devs will never give a list, because that is ever changing for a myriad of reasons. Will almost never happen. And it's not the devs job to berated about complacency and competition when those who do so don't really understand what they do anyway 

And they repeatedly have said, both directly and through moderators, that Me fixes are complex and require time. But, and again I've repeated myself on this so many times its like groundhog day, some are simply not listening. 

I play games that have had similar problems with complex bugs. Its wonderful how i don't have to pay £35 for the new content and major updates. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 hour ago, SammyRai said:

I was excited for this years version, first time in a long time, I played FM18 and 17 etc before it, but this one I was excited for. Some actually innovation seemed to take place for this version. I couldn't be more disappointed. The ME balance is hideous for some many reasons already listed here.

I work for a software company who have no direct comptetion, believe me, I know what that does. I don't want to sound like a negative nancy, but SI need competition, we're just at pure stagnation at this point.

The cycle is the same every year. The intial release is borked and a step back from the one before. We go almost an entire year until it's actually pretty legit, but still with issues, it's no longer being worked on at this point - new release comes around same cycle. Never having a game that's actually repsectable in the way it works from a technical standpoint.

 

And yet, look at the other side of it. Over 60,000 people playing the game at the same time on a regular basis.  Also, and I say this every year, but again it's true. I know several FM players who never come anywhere near this forum, and none of them have a bad word to say about the game. Not one. I watch several YouTubers, and all of them have heaped praise on the game, very few of them I ever see post on here. That can't be a coincidence. This forum (and this thread in particular), for all the good that a few people do to help the game develop, is as much of a hindrance as a help at this time of year. 

[Kazza]

16 minutes ago, RobertPage said:

I play games that have had similar problems with complex bugs. Its wonderful how i don't have to pay £35 for the new content and major updates. 

You are so entitled Mr Page. You really do need to think through what you are saying. I did not pay £35 you may have. No one asked you to pay £35 and I suspect you did not! Can you name those games and all there major changes. What did they do and did they ask you? I am fed up with certain people thinking they are the entitled generation. You appear to be just out for an argument. Give the mods a rest and do something constructive. Really, get a grip and have a good day

 

ps I am off to do some real life stuff !

Edited November 14, 2018 by Kazza

[RobertPage]

2 minutes ago, Kazza said:

You are so entitled Mr Page. You really do need to think through what you are saying. I did not pay £35 you may have. No one asked you to pay £35 and I suspect you did not! Can you name those games and all there major changes. What did they do and did they ask you? I am fed up with certain people thinking they are the entitled generation. You appear to be just out for an argument. Give the mods a rest and do something constructive. Really, get a grip and have a good day

I'll just direct you to steam current player count here. Whilst i cant give you every update that games i play have released. I would just like to point out that the games in this list are mostly games that are known to have had issues in the past. They've all taken time and many updates over the years and will continue to release updates over the coming years. Now i will ask you a question. Which one of these games is for sale at £37.99 in the steam store, and has been releasing games yearly for roughly two decades?

You can say we're the entitled generation all you like, but the standards of this game aren't that of a yearly released game of the price it costs

[themadsheep2001]

19 minutes ago, RobertPage said:

I play games that have had similar problems with complex bugs. Its wonderful how i don't have to pay £35 for the new content and major updates. 

And you've literally proved my point.