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torchibo

[FcBayern] Tactic 4-2-3-1 isnt working. Help appreciated.

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I've read every tactic post I could find, tried to understand what the Creator meant but I can't create a tactic, not even simple ones, like the ones recommended if you want to start to make a new tactic: few Team Instructions, solid formations, and player roles, etc

Nothing works. My Vision for the tactic isn't fulfilled, I don't have success and neither I create chances nor I can hold a defensive structure. I honestly try to understand Football Manager but every time I think I understood and try it in-game I get disappointed.

The Team Instructions don't anything for me. If I change the width I don't see any change or with the passing. There is no positive outcome of what I have changed.

I downloaded tactics that should work but they don't and that's also something I don't understand. I don't want to make tirade but it is so frustrating. I really want to like that game, hell I have 228 hours in Fm19 and didn't even finish ONE SINGLE SEASON, not even a half.

I will show you my tactic but it isn't anything special.

Tactic: (Ignore the players)

 

20190714212301_1.jpg

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A few things at play here in my opinion.

You are Bayern yes, but in fm19 they seem like quite a slow, ponderous side to me, that physically cant maintain a fast tempo. Hummels is very slow defender who uses a good ability to read the game and position himself to stop attacks.

So i think the combination of the very aggressive pressing strategy will leave you susceptible to balls over the top and through balls which could be a problem. id move to a more passive style of defending and close of passing lanes.

next id look at the team instructions. I wouldnt use short passing and wide together, that creates a conflict straight away. Id also lose the overlaps, this will slow your tempo down and give the opposition more time to regroup. i think i would only keep the "play out of defence" option ticked, and move back to standard tempo and passing range, allowing the natural creativity of your side to shine through.

id then look at your roles. I wouldnt play a deep lying playmaker and advanced playmaker together. i think its more realistic to use perhaps a defensive minded central midfielder paired with the box to box midfielder, then have a creative player playing in the number 10 role if you choose to do that.

Id then look at the players themselves. Javi Martinez would have a nosebleed playing up there. and likewise James shouldnt be that deep. that cant be by design surely? if so, why?

Lewandowski as an advanced forward im not so sure about. he has an all round game to bring others into play, in more of a complete forward type role. this may negate the need to be playing a number 10 if you get the wide players involved.

 

Thats how id start to change things initially

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1 hour ago, torchibo said:

20190714212301_1.jpg

First, when you use a RMD, having the striker in such an advanced role is not the best idea IMHO. RMD is essentially a wide poacher, so you need to leave him as much space in the middle to attack as possible. I would therefore go with the lone striker either on (preferably) support duty or - if on attack duty - a deeper role (my preference would be a TQ, though DLF on attack might also work, probably also a PF on attack).

Pass into space also makes little sense. Neither your tactic as such creates that space, nor is opposition going to allow you that space (in critical areas of the pitch), given that you are a top team such as Bayern.

Overlap left makes some sense (purely) attacking-wise, but at the same time carries needlessly high defensive risk (especially as you already have a natural overlap on that flank with the combo of IFsu and WBat).

Overlap right is less problematic, but then again - since your formation is top-heavy and with no DM to directly protect the back-line - if you want to use the Overlap right TI, then I would suggest a more conservative role for the RB (e.g. IWBde, WBde or FBsu instead of WBsu).

Then you have two PMs close to each other - DLPde in MCL and APsu in AMC - which is a needless overkill IMO (unless you want to have sterile possession merely for the sake of having it). 

Then you have both DL and LOE set to much higher. So - by playing on the highest possible LOE - you are basically further denying yourself space in the final third, which is already reduced by (usually) very defensive opposition. If you want to press the opposition high up the pitch - but at the same time keep good vertical compactness - then I would opt for the combo of higher DL and standard LOE, but with the Prevent short GKD and counter-press. 

A question (one I often ask people): Why don't you use the Counter TI in transition?

P.S: If you would like to know how I would set up a 4231 tactic that employs a RMD for a team like Bayern, please let me know.

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10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

First, when you use a RMD, having the striker in such an advanced role is not the best idea IMHO. RMD is essentially a wide poacher, so you need to leave him as much space in the middle to attack as possible. I would therefore go with the lone striker either on (preferably) support duty or - if on attack duty - a deeper role (my preference would be a TQ, though DLF on attack might also work, probably also a PF on attack).

Pass into space also makes little sense. Neither your tactic as such creates that space, nor is opposition going to allow you that space (in critical areas of the pitch), given that you are a top team such as Bayern.

Overlap left makes some sense (purely) attacking-wise, but at the same time carries needlessly high defensive risk (especially as you already have a natural overlap on that flank with the combo of IFsu and WBat).

Overlap right is less problematic, but then again - since your formation is top-heavy and with no DM to directly protect the back-line - if you want to use the Overlap right TI, then I would suggest a more conservative role for the RB (e.g. IWBde, WBde or FBsu instead of WBsu).

Then you have two PMs close to each other - DLPde in MCL and APsu in AMC - which is a needless overkill IMO (unless you want to have sterile possession merely for the sake of having it). 

Then you have both DL and LOE set to much higher. So - by playing on the highest possible LOE - you are basically further denying yourself space in the final third, which is already reduced by (usually) very defensive opposition. If you want to press the opposition high up the pitch - but at the same time keep good vertical compactness - then I would opt for the combo of higher DL and standard LOE, but with the Prevent short GKD and counter-press. 

A question (one I often ask people): Why don't you use the Counter TI in transition?

P.S: If you would like to know how I would set up a 4231 tactic that employs a RMD for a team like Bayern, please let me know.

I would like to know how you would set them up.

I tried to make my own it works better but still could be improved.

 

 

20190715101358_1.jpg

Edited by torchibo

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23 minutes ago, torchibo said:

20190715101358_1.jpg

Edited 12 minutes ago by torchibo

You are now playing much higher LOE with standard DL wich makes you less vertically compact. Basically you put a lot of preassure on your DLP nad CAR in defensive trasitions. They have a lot of ground to cover, plus you play counterpress and more urgent presing and it will be very risky. If you want to play with high LOE your DL should also stay high but with offside trap.

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14 hours ago, torchibo said:

My Vision for the tactic isn't fulfilled

I'd start here, what is your vision?    Without knowing your vision we can't instruct you how to implement it though can say how we'd use same players.

What do your players need (attribute + trait wise) to fulfil it? If you dont have what you need then you'll always be struggling to get the tactic to work.

For example your setup looked very wing heavy and looking to create a chance quickly so likely would of been a cross heavy.

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3 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

I'd start here, what is your vision?    Without knowing your vision we can't instruct you how to implement it though can say how we'd use same players.

What do your players need (attribute + trait wise) to fulfil it? If you dont have what you need then you'll always be struggling to get the tactic to work.

For example your setup looked very wing heavy and looking to create a chance quickly so likely would of been a cross heavy.

My Vision is a 4-3-3 with one Defending Midfielder one central playmaker and one supporting midfielder who uses the free room. 2 Ifs that try to make a pass on the forward, the central midfielders or pass the overlapping wing-back who crosses in.

The Ball should move from one If through the midfield to the other. I tried many formations and it never worked. I tried a Mezzala-u and an advancing playmaker-a with a halfback, 2If an F9 and two overlapping wingbacks but still no result.

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14 minutes ago, torchibo said:

My Vision is a 4-3-3 with one Defending Midfielder one central playmaker and one supporting midfielder who uses the free room. 2 Ifs that try to make a pass on the forward, the central midfielders or pass the overlapping wing-back who crosses in.

The Ball should move from one If through the midfield to the other. I tried many formations and it never worked. I tried a Mezzala-u and an advancing playmaker-a with a halfback, 2If an F9 and two overlapping wingbacks but still no result.

That's not a vision, you pretty much just told me a tactic.

Why a DM formation?  What's your defensive plan and how does your formation fit that?

On the attacking side, how quickly do you want to transition from defense to attack? How does your attacking movement fit with that?  Especially if you want two wingbacks overlapping and both wide forwards coming inside, how is space being made inside? If its not the your going to end up cross heavy from the overlapping or pot shots as the IF runs into a dead end.  If not sure how to explain it think about who's the main goal scorers going to be and how are you going to create good chances that they are good at converting?

Edited by summatsupeer

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15 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

That's not a vision, you pretty much just told me a tactic.

Why a DM formation?  What's your defensive plan and how does your formation fit that?

On the attacking side, how quickly do you want to transition from defense to attack? How does your attacking movement fit with that?  Especially if you want two wingbacks overlapping and both wide forwards coming inside, how is space being made inside? If its not the your going to end up cross heavy from the overlapping or pot shots as the IF runs into a dead end.  If not sure how to explain it think about who's the main goal scorers going to be and how are you going to create good chances that they are good at converting?

The Half-Back forms with the two center back something similar as with 3 center backs but more like a triangle in which the halfback is the tip of the triangle and someone the players can pass to if they are under pressure. It should be a possession tactic, so low tempo. The F9 receives the ball and can pass it to the if through the defense, to the wingbacks and they cross in or give it back to midfield and they look for the same opportunities.

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1 minute ago, torchibo said:

The Half-Back forms with the two center back something similar as with 3 center backs but more like a triangle in which the halfback is the tip of the triangle and someone the players can pass to if they are under pressure. It should be a possession tactic, so low tempo. The F9 receives the ball and can pass it to the if through the defense, to the wingbacks and they cross in or give it back to midfield and they look for the same opportunities.

Ok, more of a normal DM than HB.

If your ST is going to be a main creator, does he excel at receiving the ball in tight spaces, and turning to create? I'd recommend having the wide forwards set up differently so all your eggs aren't in one basket.

Your a big club so likely going to come up against deep+narrow defences so need to think about how going to create space for your wide forward.  Is your main scorer a RMD so less urgent with the ball than a IF?  If both wide forwards are coming inside, is there space for attacking CMs or are they better off giving the F9 supporting options?  If want a possession style I wouldnt be so focused on overlapping, especially both flanks.  Think about when (how early/late) they should get forward, again I recommend different timing. A WB-De can provide occasional crosses and doesnt run into cross only situations.  If setup so theres space in the center for a CM runner a IWB can help give cover.

At this point you have lots of options based on your vision, dont limit yourself too much or you end up  with pieces that dont fit together.

Hopefully this gives you some ideas to put something together.  Then try and fit the players in and see how well it fits there attributes and traits. 

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6 hours ago, torchibo said:

I would like to know how you would set them up.

Okay, here we go (assuming we are still dealing with a 4231, although I believe 4141dm wide would better suit Bayern).

Roles and duties

DLFsu

IFsu                 TQ               RMD

CMde     MEZsu

 

FBat     CDde    BPDde     IWBde

SKat

Players and player instructions

GK/SKat - Neuer - no PIs

DL/FBat - Alaba - no PIs

DR/IWBde - Kimmich - no PIs

DCL/CDde - Sule - stay wider

DCR/BPDde - Hummels - no PIs

MCL/CMde - Martinez - mark tighter, dribble less

MCR/MEZsu - Thiago - mark tighter, close down more, run wide with the ball

AML/IFsu - Gnabry - no PIs

AMR/RMD - Muller - no PIs

AMC/TQ - Rodriguez - no PIs

ST/DLFsu - Lewandowski - shoot more often

Team instructions

Mentality - Positive

In possession - shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box, be more expressive, overlap right

In transition - counter, distribute to CBs and FBs

Out of possession - higher DL, standard LOE, normal (default) pressing, prevent short GKD, use offside trap

That would be my primary tactic with which I would start most of my matches and then make slight occasional tweaks as I see fit.

 

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7 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, here we go (assuming we are still dealing with a 4231, although I believe 4141dm wide would better suit Bayern).

Roles and duties

DLFsu

IFsu                 TQ               RMD

CMde     MEZsu

 

FBat     CDde    BPDde     IWBde

SKat 

Players and player instructions

GK/SKat - Neuer - no PIs

DL/FBat - Alaba - no PIs

DR/IWBde - Kimmich - no PIs

DCL/CDde - Sule - stay wider

DCR/BPDde - Hummels - no PIs

MCL/CMde - Martinez - mark tighter, dribble less

MCR/MEZsu - Thiago - mark tighter, close down more, run wide with the ball

AML/IFsu - Gnabry - no PIs

AMR/RMD - Muller - no PIs

AMC/TQ - Rodriguez - no PIs

ST/DLFsu - Lewandowski - shoot more often

Team instructions

Mentality - Positive

In possession - shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box, be more expressive, overlap right

In transition - counter, distribute to CBs and FBs

Out of possession - higher DL, standard LOE, normal (default) pressing, prevent short GKD, use offside trap

That would be my primary tactic with which I would start most of my matches and then make slight occasional tweaks as I see fit.

 

i made some change and I would be interested if they make sense to you.

I need someone one the front who also sometimes helps out so DFLsu to DFLa.

I play coman on the right side as winger instead of Mueller. I move TQ to the right so Mez has some room to attack and more options to pass.

DLFatt

IFsu     TQ                            Wingersu

CMde     MEZsu

 

FBat     CDde    BPDde     IWBde

SKat

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18 hours ago, torchibo said:

i made some change and I would be interested if they make sense to you.

I need someone one the front who also sometimes helps out so DFLsu to DFLa.

I play coman on the right side as winger instead of Mueller. I move TQ to the right so Mez has some room to attack and more options to pass.

DLFatt

IFsu     TQ                            Wingersu

CMde     MEZsu

 

FBat     CDde    BPDde     IWBde

SKat

If you play Coman in AMR instead of Muller, then I would also play him as a winger (though I'm not sure he would be my first choice to begin with). Perhaps I would rather have Coman as IFsu in AML and Gnabry as winger on attack in AMR. And would not move the TQ to any side, there's no reason for that in this system. Actually, the biggest change I would make following the replacement of Muller from RMD role is - Lewandowski as a DLF on support and James as a SS. Btw, I would prefer Riberi as the AML over Coman.

So:

DLFsu

IFsu                SS               Wat

CMde    MEZsu

 

FBat     CDde    BPDde    IWBde

SKat

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4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

If you play Coman in AMR instead of Muller, then I would also play him as a winger (though I'm not sure he would be my first choice to begin with). Perhaps I would rather have Coman as IFsu in AML and Gnabry as winger on attack in AMR. And would not move the TQ to any side, there's no reason for that in this system. Actually, the biggest change I would make following the replacement of Muller from RMD role is - Lewandowski as a DLF on support and James as a SS. Btw, I would prefer Riberi as the AML over Coman.

So:

DLFsu

IFsu                SS               Wat

CMde    MEZsu

 

FBat     CDde    BPDde    IWBde

SKat

Ive played against 4-4-1-1 and although it wasnt a horrible performance it lacked the domination if bayern, so I changed the tempo up and at the second half it worked well but now its less of a possession tactic and more acounter tactic do you have a advice?

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20 minutes ago, torchibo said:

it lacked the domination if bayern, so I changed the tempo up and at the second half it worked well but now its less of a possession tactic and more acounter tactic do you have a advice?

If it worked well with a higher tempo, then what's the problem? I am glad that you spotted an issue and solved it by a small tweak. I personally prefer counter-attacking to possession football, so I don't think there's anything wrong in having less possession but more potency in attack instead. In fact, the tactic I suggested was not too much possession-based either. It's rather a style I like to call progressive possession football.

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9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

If it worked well with a higher tempo, then what's the problem? I am glad that you spotted an issue and solved it by a small tweak. I personally prefer counter-attacking to possession football, so I don't think there's anything wrong in having less possession but more potency in attack instead. In fact, the tactic I suggested was not too much possession-based either. It's rather a style I like to call progressive possession football.

But do you have an idea how to strenghten the defence?

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Not sure I can add much here, but I'm into season 9 with Bayern

I started off with a 4-2-3-1 like you want but switched to a 4-1-2-2-1 (or 4-1-2-3 if you like) after half a season, the James loan ends after the first season so it was an easy switch

I persisted with Muller as a RMD, as he's the ultimate in that role & the role really interested me but I could never get the best of him, though he did have a random season storming it with 20 goals. I retrained him as a DLP in his later years & he's retired since.

Playing Coman out on the left as W(S) & Muller out on the right as RMD(A) is the way to go, duel "Inside Forwards" (the RMD cuts inside) with an AM I found just causes huge central congestion , a supportive winger out wide really helps with the crossing to the far post for the RMD 

 

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3 hours ago, torchibo said:

But do you have an idea how to strenghten the defence?

How are you typically conceding?

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2 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

How are you typically conceding?

Through the middle with nice build up. My Players look like they dont want to do anything while often getting overrun by the enemies.

Edited by torchibo

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10 minutes ago, torchibo said:

Through the middle with nice build up. My Players look like they dont want to do anything while often getting overrun by the enemies.

Are they actual passive and sticking to positions and not engaging? All going after same player? Engaging but not trying to tackle? 

Screenshots might help here along with confirming current tactic with your 1st choice players.

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8 hours ago, torchibo said:

But do you have an idea how to strenghten the defence?

 

2 hours ago, torchibo said:

Through the middle with nice build up. My Players look like they dont want to do anything while often getting overrun by the enemies

Well, as I said earlier, a 4231 may not be an optimal system for your team. Perhaps you should consider a system with a DM (4141dm wide with Martinez screening the back-line as a HB or anchor). That would also give you more options in terms of DL/LOE settings.

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Hey Mate, hopefully i can help you out with the tactic, This one i use on my bayern save and my goal was to recreate bayerns playstyle as close as possible. It was also important to me to use the players in their most played positions from expired season. I will give you some hints on how i created this tactic and what was the idea behind.

Lets start with the Players and their roles & duties:

ST - Lewandowski is a Striker who is not only looking to score goals but also trying to create chances or space for his team mates. Complete Forward is the perfect role for this as it combines goal scoring priority (quite high up the pitch) with a lot of movement (roam form position & move into channels) and creative/supportive aspects (Risky passes & Hold up Ball). I choose Support Duty as he is not the fastest anymore and i dont want him to break through central defense as this area usually is packed with defenders when playing as bayern.

AML/AMR - Coman and Gnabry are very pacy so i both want them to attack the space in front of them. In real Gnabry does cut inside and trys to get into scoring positions whenever lewandowski is pulling defenders away or isnt in a good position yet. So i choose Gnabry to be an IF on Attack. Coman on the other hand will attack wider areas as we dont want pack the middle too much.

AMC - Muller will be a simple, hard working offensive midfielder who does primarily distribute the ball to our wider players. from time to time tho he will join the box and try to score goals. As we are playing with 2x Holding CM's we need him as a support duty to link up play.

CM -  As we usually play wide, and with rather aggressive full backs we need a double pivot of holing players in our central midfield to pretend defensive cover. As Thiago is one of the key players in bayerns game, he will be our playmaker and central point of our build up play. With a support duty he will have all the freedom he needs to dictate the game. He will be assisted by a simple defending central midfielder. There were cases last season where Goretzka or Tolisso before he was injured would be more of a threatening player inside the enemies box. If you want to experiement with it you can choose a more aggressive role form him and make the DLP a defend Duty. You should also consider then to properbly change the Fullback to a Suppot Duty. IRL tho most of the Time Goretzka or Martinez was playing besinde thiago in a more defending manner.

FB - In real life on the left wing with Coman and Alaba bayern trys to create overloads as both are very attacking. Alaba is always looking for overlaps and even sometimes underlapping to join the box or at least bring in  a cross from byline. So he will be a FB on Attack. Kimmich on the other hand will take place into gnabrys position as he cuts inside to join the box.

CB - Hummels is more like a play opening defender so he will be a BPD and Sule is just a norma CD who will run down attackers :-)

GK - Neuer will be a Sweeper Keeper as he has to cover the space the defensive line will leave behind. He will also be an important part of the build up play.

 

Bayern.thumb.jpg.c2e2f89a577685d9ae9e50d38d6ba6ff.jpg

 

Ok after we got the Roles & Duties covered lets get to the Team Instructions.

Mentality: As Bayern usually is the stronger team we can afford to player on a more progressive mentality and take more risks to score goals. So we go with Positive.

In Possession: As we want to attack through the Wider areas of the Pitch we choose "Wide" attacking Width. "Play out of defense" and "Work ball into Box" will help us to create a more patient approach in terms of Build up and in craeting goal scoring opportunities. As we have pretty good decision making we can play on a "higher tempo" to leave less time to ur opponent to set up against us. "Standard" passing to be mentioned as we want to keep up oportunities to also play a more direct ball from time to time.

In Transition: When loosing the ball there usually is a short period of time where bayern trys to win back the ball before setteling into defensive positions. So choose "Counterpress". As Neuer is know for his ability to initiate counter attacks with his long throws into wider areas we choose "Distribute Quickly", "Distribute to Fullbacks" and "Throw it long". Also we are perfectly set up for this as "Play out of Defense" will make our fullbacks positiooning higher up the pitch initially because both central defenders will split into wider areas.

Out of Possession: To make our team actually "Counterpress" high up the Pitch (where we usually loose the ball) we need to set up a Higher line of engagement. To not stretch our Team vertically too much we also Higher our Defensive line, covered by an offside trap. As said earlier we want to settle in our defensive shape after a short period of press. So we will keep the overall pressing intesity at a normal level.

 

I hope i could help you out. By the way this tactic was invented over the course of season and did work very well for me.

 

 

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