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thedrdrive

Offense stale - need some advice!

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Hi all,

I am building a revitalized Roma squad in 2020 and am seeking some help with a tactic I'm developing. First, many thanks to @Piperita for the thoughts in another thread that gave me the theoretical foundation for the tactic. However, I'm afraid my execution is poor!

I have a highly technical and creative team - the core attributes I'm building around are technique, dribbling, first touch, flair, and passing. As such, I'd like to play a short passing / narrow / quick pace game on offense, building vertically and allowing my multiple technically gifted offensive players to create chances. Defensively, I'd like to maintain a high level of engagement while playing the offside trap (my defenders are all quite pacy), and with a medium level of pressing (don't have the work rate to go full press).

I've attached a few screenshots, one of my tactic and the other from a recent game I played. The problem is quite obvious - my players are just launching long shots all game, with a terrible on-target %. The Match Analysis screenshot shows my instructions are (somewhat?) working, in that balls are channeled through the middle but also leverage my lateral players. The shot chart, however, speaks for itself.

Two screenshots show precise instances when my players are shooting long, and I'm not really sure why that is? It's not as if there is just a lone striker with the ball vs. many defenders, in most cases there are plenty of other Roma players around that the player could pass to. 

I've specifically tried two solutions, neither of which helped: (1) Changing my AMC to a Striker with DLF role, and (2) Adding the work ball into the box instruction.

Any advice would be really helpful and appreciated!

Tactics.PNG

MatchAnalysis.PNG

Long 1.PNG

Long 2.PNG

Boxscore.PNG

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3 hours ago, thedrdrive said:

in most cases there are plenty of other Roma players around that the player could pass to. 

Not in those screenshots.  They're all marked or behind the ball carrier.  Then look at your setup, positive + higher tempo and they're IF-At are riskier so really not likely to play a simple possession pass backwards.

For me there's a disconnect, the middle is more patient full of support and late arrivers but the you have two IF-At rushing into dead ends.

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Yea your instructions are congesting the middle of the pitch, all seem to point to getting the ball to an IF who on an attack duty with a positive team mentality is going to play much more high risk football. Meaning they're going to drive into the middle of the pitch and shoot on sight.

In your first screen shot, Felix has only one player ahead of him that he can see, and that player is pretty closely marked, and Felix looks like he's found half a yard of space. Those two facts combined with your 4 supporting players behind him being totally cut off by two players and him being on a high risk mentality means he's going to pull the trigger.

In the second screen shot, Chiesa has no passing options to the left, and his mentality means he's not going to put his foot on the ball, turn and wait for the support players to find some space. He could play it out to the right wing, but he's got a very attacking mentality and so he considers shooting the better of the two options.

I'm not sure why you're playing wing backs and inside forwards with an underlap instruction? It just means you've got both IFs, your AM, your BBM, your MEZ, and both wing backs all moving towards or already standing in the same area of the pitch, highlighted by that big red splotch on the heat map.

Also changing your AM for a DLF wouldn't really solve anything, he'd still be looking to occupy the same space as well as the other 6 players heading there.

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Thanks @summatsupeer and @Tom8983, those are good insights!  I especially appreciate the breakdown of the plays.

It feels like you've both identified a few (related) issues: (1) natural congestion at the center of the pitch, driven by my heavy center midfield (BBM +AM + Mezz), (2) wide players coming in (underlap instruction + Inside Forward role), which only makes the congestion worse (3) Midfield vs. offense disconnect where midfield is hanging back and IF-AT are rushing in.

What do you think of these adjustments? 

A) Replace underlap with overlap instruction - to create more width and bring the fullbacks into the offense

B) Change one (or both?) of the IF-AT to Winger-A or Winger-S?

C) Move my Mezzala to Attack instead of Support, to get further up

Ideally (A) and (B) would provide more width and reduce congestion in the middle, while (C) reduces the gap between midfield and offense.

Cheers - thanks again

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A) Why do you need either underlap or overlap?  I'd say don't use any of them and just focus on your roles+duties first then once you've decided they're the right roles consider if need to adjust how they're combining further.

B+C) Well Chiesa is right footed so having him stay wider and leave space for the MEZ inside makes sense, but its also the flank with the best attacking FB of the two so pieces don't quite fit

Take things a step at a time, make a change then make sure you can see the effect on the pitch and its what you want, then consider what your next step should be.

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5 hours ago, thedrdrive said:

Tactics.PNG

The first thing I've noticed - which btw is a mistake made by so many people here - is that the tactic is very one-dimensional, which greatly limits your attacking options and by extension helps the opposition defend more easily.

As for the rest, I fully agree with @summatsupeer :thup:

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2 hours ago, thedrdrive said:

B) Change one (or both?) of the IF-AT to Winger-A or Winger-S?

Regarding B, it seems to me you could also try to change left side IF to s and keep right side as a. Felix has high flair and should work well this way and Chiesa is right footed so ideally I d play him as winger but this way you d waste some of Florenzi s potential (he wint have enough space). In case of playing inside forwards on the same side as their strong foot I strongly prefer them to be on attack and not on support.

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Thanks all! Yes, @Experienced Defender I'm afraid I fall victim to that often...I find it hard to strike the balance between building a specific tactical style with a precise offensive identity, while of course making sure that it's not 1 dimensional.

@Dfs and @summatsupeer, that is helpful feedback. I have been replaying games today and have ended up with a better, but perhaps not yet perfect tactic. 

Editing the player roles (AMR to Winger / S, Mezzala to Attack) has certainly helped, and so has removing the underlap/overlap instructions.  The middle of the pitch is much less crowded as a result, and I'm getting some lovely crosses across the field between Florenzi/Felix/Chiesa. The Chiesa to Felix cross has already scored a few in the new tactic! In addition, I changed the AMC-S to a Trequartista-AT...perhaps risky since I'm not too fluent in the role and how it works best, but it seems to be providing value by spreading the AMC higher up the pitch and proving some attacking flair.

What do you think?
 

NewTactic.PNG

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Sounds good! I'll keep trying it and see what happens. Your comment begs the question of what might be wrong in the defensive phase...but I guess I'll see if I run into any problems 

:onmehead:

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3 hours ago, thedrdrive said:

Your comment begs the question of what might be wrong in the defensive phase

Something that I always emphasize - needlessly aggressive defending. You don't need to increase pressing intensity for the entire team and thus disrupt your defensive shape more than it's necessary, especially as you play on a high-risk mentality, which already (by default) makes pressing more aggressive than on lower mentalities. Of course, this is all relative (just like everything in football) - the better your players are defense-wise, the lower this risk is. But still...

Instead of more urgent pressing, I would suggest you use the Prevent short GKD instruction.

Edited by Experienced Defender

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18 hours ago, thedrdrive said:

Thanks all! Yes, @Experienced Defender I'm afraid I fall victim to that often...I find it hard to strike the balance between building a specific tactical style with a precise offensive identity, while of course making sure that it's not 1 dimensional.

@Dfs and @summatsupeer, that is helpful feedback. I have been replaying games today and have ended up with a better, but perhaps not yet perfect tactic. 

Editing the player roles (AMR to Winger / S, Mezzala to Attack) has certainly helped, and so has removing the underlap/overlap instructions.  The middle of the pitch is much less crowded as a result, and I'm getting some lovely crosses across the field between Florenzi/Felix/Chiesa. The Chiesa to Felix cross has already scored a few in the new tactic! In addition, I changed the AMC-S to a Trequartista-AT...perhaps risky since I'm not too fluent in the role and how it works best, but it seems to be providing value by spreading the AMC higher up the pitch and proving some attacking flair.

What do you think?
 

NewTactic.PNG

Im glad I could help at least a little! I like this setup much more however as @Experienced Defender mentioned the defense seems aggressive. You have a lot of ground to cover with mich higher LOE for urgent oressing and on too of that coubter pressing. Thats a lot to ask of your players. You could try to mix it up during the game though, for example defend this way for 15 mins and then drop to standard LOE and stardard pressing. Cheers and good luck and keep us updated how its going :)

Edited by Dfs

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I'll just add that against better teams, in the Champions League for example, it *might* be an idea to change one of your CM roles to something that doesn't roam from position to give a little more defensive stability especially during the transition phase.

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That is helpful @Tom8983, and good feedback especially as I am now trying to break past the group stage of the CL.

I've played a couple of months in the tactic now, with about 15 competitive matches played. It's generally effective enough – I am second in the Serie A (similar to last year), but my defense is mainly to credit with very few goals conceded. My offense is still rather anemic, though (yet MUCH better than it was when I started this thread!).

I've attached a few match analyses screenshots, as well as the latest tactic. 

I'll be honest and say I'm a little confused still. In many matches, I'm actually getting a fair number of shots and shots on target (up to 40%).  Perhaps it's that my front line has rather weak finishing attributes? (all <14 if I recall).  Kai Havertz in particular is not performing as brilliantly as I would like in his trequartista role.  It feels like I am creating shot opportunities, but they are not particularly high quality - either long shots, or busy shots in the box.

I'm guessing the solution is further tweaking of the roles...any ideas?

Thank you endlessly for the help!

Tactics.PNG

Sampdoria Match.PNG

Torino Game 2.PNG

Cagliari Game1.PNG

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Quick update - just played another match that (while resulting in a last-minute victory to secure my spot in the CL round of 16.....exciting!) further illustrated some of the issues I'm seeing.

As you can see, plenty of shots (19), a material amount (32%) on target, compared to their measly 1 shot on target, and yet the game was a struggle through and through.  Many of my shots still appear long, often in congested circumstances.

I tried changing the role of my AMC from Trequartista to Shadow Striker at half-time, hoping this would position him further up the pitch and create some vertical space, but to no avail. Is perhaps more wing play (e.g. running the ball through my AML Felix or AMR Chiesa) a solution perhaps? 

Schalke.PNG

Schalke Analysis.PNG

Schalkeshot1.PNG

SchalkeShot2.PNG

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are you absolutely dead set on being strikerless? I thought an AF might help to stretch the opposition and give the defence a headache along with the 2 players in the AM strata

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Is there a particular reason that you're determined to play strikerless? Because looking at your heat maps and passing combinations, there's very little interaction between your front three at the moment, and the ball is spending most of the time being played forward to them, then back to where is came from, then repeat without any progression forward which tells me that they are maybe being marked out of the game and/or pressured before they can get high up the pitch.  I'm thinking that a strikerless tactic that involves playing out from the back with shorter passing  is just giving the opposition too much time to get set with all of their team behind the ball in their box, meaning you'll resort to long shots or forever hit a defenders legs in the box. Combined with playing fairly narrow, I think you may just be delighting the opposition in the you're playing your entire game in front of them and in the area they will congest the most, the middle.

Have you tried just moving Havertz up into the striker slot either as a Treq or DLF? I'm not sure I'd want to mess around with it too much if it's mostly getting you results, but looking at the evidence you're just too deep for too long when you've got the ball.

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17 hours ago, thedrdrive said:

I'll be honest and say I'm a little confused still. In many matches, I'm actually getting a fair number of shots and shots on target (up to 40%).  Perhaps it's that my front line has rather weak finishing attributes? (all <14 if I recall).  Kai Havertz in particular is not performing as brilliantly as I would like in his trequartista role.  It feels like I am creating shot opportunities, but they are not particularly high quality - either long shots, or busy shots in the box.

Tactics.PNG

I think your point about the type of players deserves further analysis.  Lets look at those players quickly in a very basic way.  At start of the game each players best role+duty as recommended by the game:

  • Joao Felix - AP-Su
  • Kai Havertz - AP-Su
  • Chiesa - W-Su closely followed by AP-Su and IF-Su

Your front three are all more creators, then you have a CM who's best role is also AP-Su and your DM's best role is DLP-Su. Yes they can do more than just what the game says is there best role, but regardless of that your team is stacked with players who's attributes are more on the creative side and supporting.  Felix, Pellegrini and Zaniolo aren't quick.  Kai has good top pace put not quick to get there to burst past player, Chiesa is the quickest but isn't a speedster.

Now lets look at the style your asking of them:

  • Positive mentality so asking them to take risks, play forward more, a bit wider, faster etc. 
  • Play Out Of Defence and Shorter Passing will make them play through midfield more and less long quick switches of play, helps play but also moves the ball slower.
  • But then you've added Higher Tempo, whilst Shorter Passing does reduce it, you've now asked them to take less time on the ball, to do things quicker typically this is to use space before its gone, but if there's no space/options what will a risky + fast style result in? Well its not likely to be a possession pass backwards to work the ball around a bit more, especially if its an attack duty.  How can not very quick players attack space quickly before it goes, even if at high tempo?

Your front 5 isn't full of pace, its full of vision, composure, flair, passing, technique, off the ball, first touch etc.  Yet your style of play is very fast and forward thinking which IMO should have players with great acceleration, agility, pace and individual the ability to beat a man to create a chance quickly and finish it.

What would I do? I think you need a more patient style, give the creators more time on the ball and the runners/finishers time to make there runs. Drop Higher Tempo, see if that improves things firstly and maybe take it further by slowing it.  I'd move and change the roles + duties a lot to, its almost a new system which I don't usually like to do since its not just tweaking your existing system and could create new issues that need analysing and tweaking but I think it fits the players better.

  1. Get Felix deeper and collecting the ball rather than trying to run past people cos he's not going to win many races.  I'd go with IF-Su, i'm kind of building combinations as I go here, I have an idea that the AMR is the main scorer with Felix playing passes through the DCL-DL space to him, but going to focus on the left first.
  2. Zaniolo is left footed and you have him as MEZ-At, if he was in MCL he could make a interesting combination with Felix cutting inside. Whilst its an urgent role, I think from MC and moving wide it should give late driving runs into the box or wide and help make space centrally rather than another slower/static player.
  3. I'd probably have the DL become a WB-De to keep things simple and cover the two attacking players.  Maybe a FB-Su.  Thats the left side done, mix of cover, runner and creator.
  4. AMR i'd go for a RMD-At.  With no ST and the AML on support my first thought of a W-At probably won't have many targets. A RMD-At however shouldn't dribble with ball as much and should cross less whilst also no cutting inside where you have lots of players already.
  5. MCR i'd make a DLP-Su, controlling play from deep and let the other 4 use the space in front of him.  This can also allow the DR to remain more forward thinking as a WB-Su, maybe even a CWB-Su which is Florenzi's best role+duty according to the game along with WB-At and closely followed by FB-At, but we want more patience and less running into dead ends and crosses.
  6. DM i'd have a A-De or HB-De, keep it simple and get it to the better attacking players.  Another creative player I don't think adds anything here.  I know you have lots of playmakers and doesn't really fit them but I think it fits the tactic better.  Could maybe keep the DLP here and have a CAR/BWM/CM-Su in MCR instead.
  7. AMC i'm really not sure about, if its was a ST i'd say something like a DLF-Su or PF-Su. TQ and SS I think are to urgent.  Should he be making runs with a MEZ-At and RMD-At to try and occupy the opponents defenders? Should he drop/stay in hole and help keep the ball and leave the others to make runs... I've not done strikerless for a long time so its hard for me to remember/envision what will happen.  I'd probably start with AP-Su and let the IF-Su, MEZ-At and RMD-At be the main box players. 

This should give more varied movement with 2 of the front 3 linking and creating whilst taking less risks which should give the runners time to make there runs.  Kind of brain farted this out, hope it makes sense and of course works :idiot:

Edited by summatsupeer

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Ah, thanks @summatsupeer, that is really useful and detailed guidance. I agree on my team having a lot of creators right now, and I actually originally had a slower style of play but received feedback on another thread that because my team's concentration was low, playing at low pace would be dangerous owing to my players making more mistakes with time on the ball. Is that less of a concern than I feared? I appreciate the thoughts and role ideas, I'll try them out over the next few days :)

 
@Tom8983 and @burdinho - great question, and no I'm not married to being Strikerless! Just opted to go strikerless based on the players at my disposal (having sold Dzeko last year). I agree that playing with a striker might give me more vertical space, so I'll give it a shot and hopefully I can pick up the right player in the next window.

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7 hours ago, thedrdrive said:

Ah, thanks @summatsupeer, that is really useful and detailed guidance. I agree on my team having a lot of creators right now, and I actually originally had a slower style of play but received feedback on another thread that because my team's concentration was low, playing at low pace would be dangerous owing to my players making more mistakes with time on the ball. Is that less of a concern than I feared? I appreciate the thoughts and role ideas, I'll try them out over the next few days :)

Maybe I over simplify it, but I only really worry about concentration when possession changes.  For example a forward who plays on shoulder might be expected to stay switched on to attack quickly or a CB so ball doesnt go over his head before he knows what's going on.  If its a worry make sure your training hits concentration a lot.  I think it will be more effective than having slow players trying to play quick and running into dead ends.

Plus your on positive mentality, that's not slow even with shorter passing.

The role+duty changes are a much bigger change than the tempo.

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I wish I had better news to report, @summatsupeer, but I wasn't able to get the tactic to work! It's too bad, as your changes made a lot of sense to me. I can definitely see how a more patient build-up might suit the technical nature of my team. I moved to the tactic you suggested, albeit with the AMC playing AM-S instead of a striker given the team at my disposal. 

I went on a poor run of 5-6 games without a win, the attached screenshots profiling one of those games against Fiorentina. Defensively It seems I'm much weaker than before. I had one or two goals scored from my flanks (See Fioregoal) screenshot, which leads me to believe that the wingbacks may be playing too aggressively. Changing the mentality to Balanced (vs. positive) didn't seem to help. Offensively still feel like I wasn't able to create anything incisive, still playing the ball predictably and shooting with a sea of people in front of us. I wonder if the Striker is critical to making this work?

Fiorentina1.PNG

MyAnalysis.PNG

Theiranalysis.PNG

FioreGoal.PNG

Tactic.PNG

Ourshot.PNG

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The main thing that stands out is the lack of passing between the front 3.  In the last image its so congested, the MEZ-At is getting in the way rather than being a runner past the AML. The directness of the IF-Su even though not on attack duty isn't adding anything.  With no one occupying opponents defenders he's running into dead ends.

I've got a few ideas:

1. If there was a ST I'd use a DLF-At or PF-At so I think its worth experimenting with AM-At.  When IF picks up the ball we want to give him options when he's running with the ball.  If the AM-At can get forward enough it could create space and a better combination.  There's enough midfielders to offer a possession pass option. I'd probably change the MCL to a support duty and maybe a different role. If the DLP was on that side then DL could be more attacking earlier and give the IF-Su an earlier option and could create space inside before he cuts inside, though doesnt fit with your best attacking FB being your DR! Wouldnt have a MEZ in MCR inside of RMD, maybe a BBM?

2. Make Felix less direct as a AP-Su, this could help the combination with MEZ-At in MCL but dont think the AM-Su adds anything still so probably do same change to AM-At but would prefer a support duty ST to occupy CBs and link.

Defensively I can't see anything that should of made things worse.  Only thing is maybe by having AMR on attack and a defensively weak RB who has less help?  I dont like More Urgent typically, there is already Counter Pressing so I'd prefer PI or OI to target opponents and not have deeper players pulled out of position all running after the ball.

I dont know about anyone else but heatmaps dont really help me.  Those shot locations and pass maps do though but really I want to see the ball movement and player movement on the pitch to really know what's happening. 

Quite interested in seeing more of what's going on if you dont mind sharing the save?

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10 hours ago, thedrdrive said:

Tactic.PNG

I think this tactic has a good foundation to build upon, so I would make just a couple of tweaks:

- remove lower tempo and leave it on default (shorter passing and PoD are already making your attacking build-ups patient enough, no need for overkill)

- remove more urgent pressing and leave it on default to preserve solid defensive shape (just look at the gap between your lines in the screenshot of Fiorentina's goal)

- drop LOE just a notch, from much higher to higher, to improve vertical compactness and reduce the playable space for the opposition (again look at the same screenshot)

- be careful with counter-press and use it rather situationally (the same screenshot)

- consider the "Be more expressive" TI as an occasional option (as you have a good amount of creativity and flair up front)

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@summatsupeerthanks for the advice! That would be tremendously helpful, I've just sent you a message with the save. I appreciate you taking a look :)

@Experienced Defender excellent thoughts as well. To your point, I think generally I need to be more careful in over-emphasis, I.e. short passing and PoD already make my build-up patient, so no need for lower tempo.  This has definitely been a valuable learning that player roles and duties are loads more important than TI it seems!

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10 hours ago, thedrdrive said:

short passing and PoD already make my build-up patient, so no need for lower tempo

Absolutely :thup: (unless you want possession just for the sake of possession) 

 

10 hours ago, thedrdrive said:

This has definitely been a valuable learning that player roles and duties are loads more important than TI it seems!

I wouldn't say they are (much) more important than TIs. I'd rather put it this way: the more properly (sensibly, logically) you set up roles and duties, the less instructions you need. Contrariwise, when you set up roles and duties in a wrong manner, no TIs are going to help you.

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TLDR; I ended up using a ST.   I think someone with more experience with strikerless formations and smarter than me will have to help you with that type of system.

I've played the next 3 games of this save, still some work to do but going to go over some general points about the save first.

General Tips

  1. Squad Depth - Great starters but apart from CM there's a big drop between starter and backup.  Not only does this leave you limited choices when you have injuries/suspensions but even just giving a player a rest or giving yourself an alternative if he has off day (front 3 are all "Fairly Consistent" though).  In first game vs Genoa most of the starters had ~90% condition due to midweek game vs Milan.  Sule has 11 for Match Fitness, I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up jaded before season is over.  Add a quality DM who can win the ball and your starters can compete with any team in the league (with right tactic ;)) but need more depth to allow them some rest for big games and for injury/suspension cover, thats what will hurt you most.
  2. Finances - Need to get your wage budget under control, for such a thin squad you have nothing left.  Looking at transfer history you seem to give too many Wage Contributions for too many years.  The two big transfers this season (Chiesa + Felix) not only were big on the transfer budget but also on the wage bill (£270k p/w combined) and they get 10% more every year! Kai also gets 10% so between those 3 they are going to be about £600k a week of your £1.8m budget so 1/3 of it on 3 players.  This looks like its prevented you offering contracts to some of your good younger players like Luca Pellegrini and Zaniolo.
  3. Training - It looked like you have all the first team players set to always have "Normal Intensity" with some of backups on "Double Intensity".  With such thin depth I prefer to leave it on auto and in the Rest menu under training, I set 60-69% to "No pitch or gym work" and 70-79% to "Half Intensity".  This is to reduce risk of injury and try to aid recovery between game, especially when 2 a week. I also removed most of the Play Focus training. I setup a schedule quickly based on style and what I think the squad needs to focus on whilst trying manage the intensity levels.  Mostly looking at winning the ball back and finishing.
    • Mon: Attacking Patient + Defending Engaged + Tactical
    • Tue: Physical + Chance Conversion
    • Wed: Attacking Patient + Defending Engaged + Transition Press
    • Thu: Possession + Chance Conversion + Transition Press
    • Fri: Attacking Patient + Defending Engaged

Tactical

  1. Watch out for who your set piece takers are.  In that goal you showed earlier at Fiorentina, you had 1 player back defending because Florenzi (your DR) was taking the corner on the left side.  Whilst it wasn't a quick counter, he had to get all the way across the field.
  2. I prefer to have my CBs attack the posts, i'd like a few more goals from those two big guys.  Kai or Zaniolo looks a good option to attack from edge of box with the other on the GK.  Then the smallest playmaker should be lurking outside the box.

Current system (still WIP) and depth for each position:

GK: SK-De - Rajkovic / Fernandez

DR: WB-De - Karsdorp / Florenzi.

DCR: DC-De - Sule / Magnani

DCL: DC-De - Manolas / ? hope don't need a 4th CB!

DL: FB-At - Luca Pellegrini / Kolarov. I switched to FB-Su + Cross From Deep + Dribble Less for Kolarov has no legs to get up + down but need some width from him.

DM: DM-De - Cristante / Mauri. Mauri started in DM due to Pellgrini not being match fit and I wanted to use Cristante in CM.

MCR: MEZ-Su - Zaniolo / Pellegrini / Lobotka. 

MCL: DLP-Su - Pellegrini / Cristante.  Started Cristante due to Pellegrini not being match fit.  Lobotka lacks vision to be designated playmaker.

AMR: RMD-At - Chiesa / Florenzi / Ponce.  Chiesa was suspended so started Florenzi for a game and he repaid it with a goal!

AML: IF-Su - Felix / Almada / Ponce.

ST: F9-Su - Kai / Almada / Ponce. This is main WIP, looked at F9, DLF-Su, DLF-At, CF-Su and CF-At during various points in games, I think due to having the lead and teams chasing that opened up quick attacks so whilst I started with F9 I typically ended game on an attack duty role.

Anyone else I didn't try, Coric + Peres look to be the two whom take up more wages than they should!  Almada looks a nice backup and cheap on wages!  I'd try to give him more starts in easy games.

  • Positive Mentality
  • Shorter Passing, Play Out Of Defence, Lower Tempo, Fairly Narrow
  • Counter, Counter Press
  • Defender Narrower, Higher Defensive Line, Prevent Short GK Distribution, Offside Trap.

I also went through and removed all PIs. 

So I switched playmaker in CM to the left to combine with the IF and let the LB overlap.  Obviously biggest change is the AMC -> ST, when on attack duty he'd make runs to occupy DR/DCR/DCL and Felix was finding space between the backline and midfield where previously it was too crowded and Kai would be standing in an impossible position to get the ball, aka a dead end.

I'm also considering changing the RMD-At to W-At, whilst he was ending up in ST type positions, I think him staying more on the opponents DL would stretch them and give more space for the angled through ball.  Doing this i'd want a ST who will have a greater presence in the box rather than dropping deep or roaming.

Results

W 2-1 Genoa - A lot of tinkering and learning here.  Changing Kai to AM-At helped a lot and the MEZ-At movement with the IF-Su actually looked more like I expected.  Kai scored first on a solo run.  Felix scored a screamer from edge of box. Always in control but wasn't happy with final third play but was trying to stick with AMC.  There goal was a consolation, Sule tackled there ST then stood around whilst he recovered, ran around him to 1v1 gk...  Chiesa and Cristante hit woodwork.

W 2-1 Lazio - Tinkered with personnel here.  Cristante is your best DM but he's wasted in a holding role.  Him and Pellegrini are very similar, I started him because of the injury Pellegrini is recovering from.  It was during this game I switched the AMC to ST. Whilst the AM-At helped, Kai would run into dead ends and still didn't combine with the IF-Su whom I think due to me getting you to switch him from Attack to Support, is trying to cut inside but then no one is occupying the opponents defenders so no real threat to stop them pushing up and engaging.  Florenzi opened scoring with a nice goal, Felix with the diagonal cross/through ball I wanted to see.  Felix scored at back post from nice Karsdorp cross.  Felix hit woodwork this time. There goal was from a mistake by GK and Sule, I then looked closer at there attributes and removed the GK distribution instructions, would prefer to select Roll Out / Throw Long (since he's better throwing) but since can only select one i've let him choose, which could be a mistake.

W 2-0 Chelsea - Fairly one sided.  Only threat was Hazard since I had to play Florenzi at DR whos not the best defensively due to Karsdorp getting injured!  Felix scored from just inside the box after poor clearance from our corner.  Kai scored after a poor kick by there GK which Chiesa intercepted and played a simple pass to Kai to calmly slot it into corner.  Kai's turn to hit the woodwork!

Edited by summatsupeer

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Played 4th match last night, easy 4-0 vs SPAL.

Use CF-At all game and whilst unfamiliar to the position seemed to work well.  Chiesa has runs with ball down right, so when collects deep some times makes winger like runs with the ball so having the ST high gives a target and helps when IF-Su cuts inside.

I dont like the MEZ on the right, especially as Zaniolo is left footed so tries to come back inside onto it.

Against a defensive 532 DM I wanted more players in attacking positions and less cutting inside.

I went back to MCL as MEZ-At and as left footer when he dribbled went down edge of box for cross/cutback.  DL I had as WB-De so was advanced but patient though was Zaba' who has attacking traits.

As DLP-Su is back in MCR I let the DR get forward more.  With RMD leaving that area it can help occupy defenders and give him more space compared to the MEZ-Su did.

Edited by summatsupeer

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On 20/07/2019 at 11:30, summatsupeer said:

 

I dont know about anyone else but heatmaps dont really help me.  Those shot locations and pass maps do though but really I want to see the ball movement and player movement on the pitch to really know what's happening. 

 

I'm quite interested to know how people use these in the analysis tab. I've looked on youtube but cant see anything relating to this specifically

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Great! This is immensely useful guidance. @summatsupeer on your general tips:

1. Yes, excellent point on squad depth. I realized at many points this season my players were starting games with 80-85% condition, not ideal.

2. My wage budget is indeed a little out of whack. I also lose out a little because I have a handful of players (e.g., Hervias, Mauri) who I signed for the only purpose of loaning out. In prior FMs I've performed the "Juventus Gambit" (as Guido from Strikerless has called it) to a lot of success. For whatever reason I have proved less effective in loaning these players out in this save, leaving me with a lot of waste in the budget. I'm curious about your point on Luca Pellegrini and Nicolo Zaniolo though. They have indeed been asking for contract extensions, but my typical attitude has been that if they have >1.5 years left, I don't really want to renew and would rather them be a little unhappy (which they oftentimes get over) while keeping them on their lighter contracts. Do you disagree?

3. On training, makes sense, and definitely ties to (1) and keeping my players in match shape!

The tactical guidance you provide is really valuable, I appreciate the detailed walk-through. I'll need to spend some time in the summer finding the best DMC I can afford under the budgetary circumstances, but can totally see the value. 

You indicated that  "I also went through and removed all PIs. " Am I understanding that right, that once the team instructions were set you removed ALL of the player instructions?  Is this because they are duplicative or counterproductive in addition to the TIs? Would love to understand more as I thought PIs were critical to making the roles/duties work as intended.

Thanks!

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9 hours ago, thedrdrive said:

2. My wage budget is indeed a little out of whack. I also lose out a little because I have a handful of players (e.g., Hervias, Mauri) who I signed for the only purpose of loaning out. In prior FMs I've performed the "Juventus Gambit" (as Guido from Strikerless has called it) to a lot of success. For whatever reason I have proved less effective in loaning these players out in this save, leaving me with a lot of waste in the budget.

Yeah just found out Mauro has wage rise as # of games, hr just went from useful value for money to overpaid backup!

Quote

I'm curious about your point on Luca Pellegrini and Nicolo Zaniolo though. They have indeed been asking for contract extensions, but my typical attitude has been that if they have >1.5 years left, I don't really want to renew and would rather them be a little unhappy (which they oftentimes get over) while keeping them on their lighter contracts. Do you disagree?

Depends on the player really, unhappiness and low morale can make them train and play worse. Depends how big the contract increase is.  I'm just worried you won't have budget once at 1 year left and they might not entertain an offer and won't get good value.  I prefer to offer at 2 years left, maybe I play it too safe, depends on importance/age of player.

I also try to avoid annual wage increase, I'd prefer a bit more signing bonus and/or basic so costs less in long run. If they get 10% of 100k first year, that's 10k more then 10% of 110 and so on but they might take 105 and no increase.

Quote

I'll need to spend some time in the summer finding the best DMC I can afford under the budgetary circumstances, but can totally see the value. 

Transfer listed players or unhappy players at big clubs are often great value options rather than over paying for a player they dont want to sell.  Sometimes a bit of patience for them to force a transfer can help rather than just increasing offer straight away.

Quote

You indicated that  "I also went through and removed all PIs. " Am I understanding that right, that once the team instructions were set you removed ALL of the player instructions?  Is this because they are duplicative or counterproductive in addition to the TIs? Would love to understand more as I thought PIs were critical to making the roles/duties work as intended.

Thanks!

Can't remember exactly what they were. Its more that i wanted to see how those group of players played the standard role+duty without customising.  I see PIs as refining a system that has the right combination of roles+duty. It has to be in response to something I've seen otherwise is it really required?

Edited by summatsupeer

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22 hours ago, burdinho said:

I'm quite interested to know how people use these in the analysis tab. I've looked on youtube but cant see anything relating to this specifically

"These" being?

Generally stats dont tell you the cause, its information for you to interpret so in this topic it showed me shot location wasn't good and front 3 looked isolated.  That gave me something to focus on watching in games to try to see why.

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I highlighted it in the original post, the spaghetti map/movements of the players. I don't use them at the moment and feel that I'm missing out 

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