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I've always favoured playing a 4-2-3-1 when possible but have never settled on a role for my number 10, often switching between AM(a) and AP(a) as well as others. I have never really noticed a huge difference in the performance of that #10 and would like to know firstly what the difference is between the two afformentioned roles. Additionally, what would you setup your #10 as in a 4-2-3-1? Thanks in advance.

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An AP is a defined "playmaker" role, meaning his team mates will actively look to pass to him more often than a non-playmaker role, such as the AM.  The other main differences will be found in the roles default player instructions.

7 hours ago, reinlv said:

Additionally, what would you setup your #10 as in a 4-2-3-1?

That depends entirely on what you want from him and the players around him.  Perhaps you want him as a Shadow Striker, in which case a supporting striker role such as the F9 might be a good combination.  Then again perhaps you want him as your "fantasista" - your highly creative and flair player capable of magic - in which case a Trequartista might be up your street.  But whatever role you choose you need to consider the roles around him, so the TQ needs space to operate in, therefore having a deep dropping F9 might not be such a good idea.

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7 hours ago, reinlv said:

I have never really noticed a huge difference in the performance of that #10

Firstly I agree with what Herne's put already so won't go over that stuff again.

Are you judging his performance by rating or are you saying you can't see what he's doing different?  If he has traits it might affect how he plays the role.

If your judging on rating, it might not be him that's the problem but the roles and duties around him, you'll get more specific advice I'd you post your tactic and issues your having.

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AM is broken in the match engine. You can't make him play well no matter what 

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7 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

AM is broken in the match engine. You can't make him play well no matter what 

My AM seems to have missed that memo ;).

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5 minutes ago, herne79 said:

My AM seems to have missed that memo ;).

What formation. Am in a 4231 is broken. Doesn't play nearly enough forward balls throuhg the lines

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2 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

What formation. Am in a 4231 is broken. Doesn't play nearly enough forward balls throuhg the lines

Try adding a PI to play riskier passes and make sure you have a striker (or someone) running through those lines as an option.

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2 minutes ago, Marabak said:

Try adding a PI to play riskier passes and make sure you have a striker (or someone) running through those lines as an option.

yh i had that. Didn't make a difference

 

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8 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

What formation. Am in a 4231 is broken. Doesn't play nearly enough forward balls throuhg the lines

In a 4231 at the moment but also in other formations.

Best thing you can do if you want help is start your own thread, post your detailed tactical setup, the team you are using, the players you are using and the problems you are seeing.

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3 hours ago, _mxrky said:

AM is broken in the match engine. You can't make him play well no matter what 

My AM didn't get that memo either. Playing in a 4-2-3-1he has 15 goals and 5 assists in 31 games.

Sousa.jpg

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22 hours ago, herne79 said:

My AM seems to have missed that memo ;).

 

17 hours ago, Old Scouser Tommy said:

My AM didn't get that memo either. Playing in a 4-2-3-1he has 15 goals and 5 assists in 31 games.

Sousa.jpg

Why don't you guys then help him to set up a AM properly in a 4231? 

However @OP i feel like your AM can shine and has more space if paired with two wingers or one winger and an IF on attack. Also you can choose to set up your striker as a false 9 / deep dropping striker and push your AM to a more attacking end or even Shadow Striker.

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1 hour ago, CARRERA said:

Why don't you guys then help him to set up a AM properly in a 4231? 

Way ahead of you.

23 hours ago, herne79 said:

Best thing you can do if you want help is start your own thread, post your detailed tactical setup, the team you are using, the players you are using and the problems you are seeing.

 

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could you also help me?

both my AM score once in a while, but they rarely set assists from open play: they shoot a lot of long shots and play fewer through balls despite having the PPM.

i play with AF, IF(s) and W(a), with a BWM(s) and DLP(d) behind the CAM.

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18 hours ago, bdelsouza said:

could you also help me?

both my AM score once in a while, but they rarely set assists from open play: they shoot a lot of long shots and play fewer through balls despite having the PPM.

i play with AF, IF(s) and W(a), with a BWM(s) and DLP(d) behind the CAM.

Can you post a screenshot of the whole tactic (all roles, duties, instructions and mentality)? And preferably also a screenshot of your AM (player profile).

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most of their key passes are to full backs overlaping on the wings, but rarely into the box to any of my forwards runing in: those killer balls are usually atempted by my wingers when they run through the middle

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1 hour ago, bdelsouza said:

most of their key passes are to full backs overlaping on the wings, but rarely into the box to any of my forwards runing in: those killer balls are usually atempted by my wingers when they run through the middle

That's a lot of "in possession" instructions.  I'm guessing you are trying to control possession but you may have gone a bit over the top.  However, you're specifically asking about the AM and penetrating passes, so 3 things:

1) You are using a role which does not have attempting through balls as a default player instruction.

2) You are using work ball into box, which discourages through balls.

3) You are also using "be more disciplined", so telling your players to adhere to your instructions more than they otherwise might.

Now there is nothing wrong with using all of that, especially if you are winning, but you're essentially telling your players to not attempt risky passes and so - hey presto - they don't.  Now I'm not saying for a second that you need to change all of that because if you do you are going to alter how the rest of your team plays as well, nor am I saying that if you do you will magically see lots of through balls from your AM.  These are merely some positives and negatives to consider if you want to start making changes.

I would, however, suggest starting small and see how you get on.  For example, you could try changing the AM(s) role to the AP(s) role.  That would not only increase the (currently small) chance of making through balls but also define your AM as a "playmaker", which would make him more of a focal point for your other players to pass to.  Again though, that could change some behaviour in your other players that you may not want changed, so whatever changes you do choose to make, watch carefully to make sure they are useful changes :thup:.

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20 minutes ago, herne79 said:

2) You are using work ball into box, which discourages through balls.

Sorry, is that something new?

I've always been aware the "Work Ball Into Box" suppresses long shots and crosses, but never through balls.

If I'm not mistaken, until FM18, Retain Possession reduced through balls, but not WBIB.

 

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I'll put your first (attacking) tactic aside and focus solely on the other one (positive). 

1 hour ago, bdelsouza said:

image.thumb.png.12e68b368fc108ba11e64bd9c220ac5d.png

These are the changes I would make as the most obvious ones (as I don't know your players except for Gomez from the screenshot):

- change the striker from AF to either poacher (with the move into channels PI added) or PF on attack duty, in order to make his role more simple and primarily focused on getting himself into goal-scoring positions

- change Gomez from AMsu to a trequartista (to allow him as much freedom both of creativity and movement as possible, especially as he does have good attributes and traits for the TQ role)

- remove lower tempo, given that passing is already set to shorter, so there is no need to make an overkill

- add the "Be more expressive" TI, to encourage more creativity in the final third (I assume - based on your position on the table - that you have creative and technically gifted players, especially up front)

- change the roles of the 2 CMs - MCR to CMde and MCL to either MEZsu or BBM - and then you may also consider changing the LB from FBsu to IWBsu, to make him act both as a cover for the roaming/non-holding MCL and an extra passing option in the midfield for the recycling of possession

- add the Counter TI in transition (always potentially useful as an additional attacking weapon, plus indirectly encourages more through balls)

- remove low crosses and leave them either on default (mixed) or change to whipped, because it's likely that most opponents will pack their box, so there won't be enough space for the low crosses to be effective

And one more instruction that you may consider as an occasional option is pass into space.

I also have 2 questions:

1. what is the reason for playing the keeper as a SK on attack duty, i.e. why not on support?

2. why defend narrower?

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1 hour ago, yonko said:

Sorry, is that something new?

I've always been aware the "Work Ball Into Box" suppresses long shots and crosses, but never through balls.

If I'm not mistaken, until FM18, Retain Possession reduced through balls, but not WBIB.

 

interested as well

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2 hours ago, yonko said:

Sorry, is that something new?

I've always been aware the "Work Ball Into Box" suppresses long shots and crosses, but never through balls.

If I'm not mistaken, until FM18, Retain Possession reduced through balls, but not WBIB.

 

 

48 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

interested as well

Yeh I should clarify.

It's primary purpose is indeed to reduce long shots and crosses, although the success of that depends on other factors such as players actually being available to receive a pass.  The intended use of the instruction is to be more patient around the box, but of course if you aren't getting many shots in the first place it's probably not the best TI to use.  But that very patience of moving the ball around waiting for a better opportunity means that you may end up seeing fewer but better quality key passes, including through balls.

So it doesn't instruct players to play less through balls per se, but I'd expect to see fewer through balls being made as fewer chances will be created.  I'm generalising of course as there will be other influencing factors such as mentality, role and duty selection, but that's the general gist.

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30 minutes ago, herne79 said:

 

Yeh I should clarify.

It's primary purpose is indeed to reduce long shots and crosses, although the success of that depends on other factors such as players actually being available to receive a pass.  The intended use of the instruction is to be more patient around the box, but of course if you aren't getting many shots in the first place it's probably not the best TI to use.  But that very patience of moving the ball around waiting for a better opportunity means that you may end up seeing fewer but better quality key passes, including through balls.

So it doesn't instruct players to play less through balls per se, but I'd expect to see fewer through balls being made as fewer chances will be created.  I'm generalising of course as there will be other influencing factors such as mentality, role and duty selection, but that's the general gist.

So this is not confirmed then. Just your personal expectation/assumption. Have you observed the effect then? Meaning less through balls when WBIB selected, all other things being equal.

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I would say that WBiB (indirectly) tends to reduce the overall number of attempted through/killer balls, but at the same time improving the quality/accuracy of those that will be actually played. So less TBs in terms of quantity, but more in terms of quality. And of course, this will also have to depend on the ability of the passer and the movement of the potential receiver.

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4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I also have 2 questions:

1. what is the reason for playing the keeper as a SK on attack duty, i.e. why not on support?

2. why defend narrower?

1. I was trying to encourage more direct passes to the wings when i face gegenpressing oposition, it usually works as my gk can pass it pretty well.

2. As the game says, to make passing in the middle a pain in the ass and to force opposition to the flanks, because my CBs are tall and quick

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

- change Gomez from AMsu to a trequartista (to allow him as much freedom both of creativity and movement as possible, especially as he does have good attributes and traits for the TQ role)

- change the roles of the 2 CMs - MCR to CMde and MCL to either MEZsu or BBM - and then you may also consider changing the LB from FBsu to IWBsu, to make him act both as a cover for the roaming/non-holding MCL and an extra passing option in the midfield for the recycling of possession

I tried using him as a trequartista, but he was having more attempts at goal and getting in the way of my if, which is not what i want.

I also have an amazing DLP that does wonders in build up play from the back, i'm not too keen on sacrificing his freedom as he gives me more creative passes from the back when space opens up.

 

I just wanna make my CAM shoot less and risk more passes into the box (i actually managed to do it 4 seasons ago by playing him as a AP(a) on cm in another tactic, but i just can't remember how i did it (my mistake in not saving the freaking tactic - he finished the season with 10 goals and 15 assists, more than half of them from open play)

Edited by bdelsouza

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1 hour ago, bdelsouza said:

I tried using him as a trequartista, but he was having more attempts at goal and getting in the way of my if, which is not what i want

When a player attempts (too) many shots at goal from distance, it means he is lacking better or safer options. Therefore, he was not shooting so much because he was played as a TQ, but because the system around him did not provide enough other options. Especially as he does not have the trait "Shoots from distance". However, given that you are 2nd in the EPL as Leeds (which is great), I think you should not change your current tactic at all. I mean, who cares how one player is playing if the team as a whole is getting good results.

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12 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

 I think you should not change your current tactic at all. I mean, who cares how one player is playing if the team as a whole is getting good results.

Well, i do 😥

 

Both my CAMs are playing well, but they are not atempting an acceptable n° of killer balls into the box.

I tested some changes last night, noticed some changes in behavior of a lot of players, may test more later today

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1 hour ago, bdelsouza said:

Both my CAMs are playing well, but they are not atempting an acceptable n° of killer balls into the box

You need to know one thing: when you are a strong team/favorite in most matches - and your position on the table suggests you are - the opposition will look to defend as deep and narrow as possible in order to deny you space within and around their box. Which by extension reduces the likelihood of effective through balls being played as frequently as you would like to see them. For example, in my Man Utd save, where we dominate most of the matches, I see considerably less killer through balls than in my other two saves with Southampton and Brighton. I guess you understand what I mean. 

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2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

You need to know one thing: when you are a strong team/favorite in most matches - and your position on the table suggests you are - the opposition will look to defend as deep and narrow as possible in order to deny you space within and around their box. Which by extension reduces the likelihood of effective through balls being played as frequently as you would like to see them. For example, in my Man Utd save, where we dominate most of the matches, I see considerably less killer through balls than in my other two saves with Southampton and Brighton. I guess you understand what I mean. 

i know that, and i was fine with my offense against teams sitting back.
my main problem was in transition with space, my AMs had space to play it to my forwards, but rather chose to open it up to the full-backs or run with the ball and attempt a shot.

i didn't understad why, but i'm confident that your tips will help me understand it

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1 hour ago, bdelsouza said:

my AMs had space to play it to my forwards, but rather chose to open it up to the full-backs or run with the ball and attempt a shot

Maybe the opposition defense is well-positioned so that a potential through ball is not likely to succeed, and your AM therefore deliberately refrains from attempting such a pass? I don't know if that's the case, just guessing.

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