Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

There is a lot of FM resources that discuss the importance of creating a compact team out of possession that is hard to play through. With the out of possession team instructions (LOE, D-LINE AND D-WIDTH) creating this in the match engine alongside mentality, formation and player roles makes logical sense. My question is what the necessary team instructions would be to create a compact team when in possession.

Marco Giampaolo’s recent appointment as Milan manager has inspired me to once again attempt to replicate his style at Empoli and Sampdoria prior. Pompey_Dan wrote a really good post on this topic in FM18 and his tactic is the template I have started from in FM19. 

4-3-1-2 Inspired by Marco Giampaolo

20190702221135_1fd5ed4863cd67ec8.jpg

The main resource I have drawn from is a Speilverlagerung analysis on Giampaolo’s Empoli which describes his team’s compactness in possession as:

“Very rarely, if ever occupying both flanks simultaneously, Giampaolo’s side prefer to have a much greater focus on spaces around the ball. The diamond in midfield remains compact at nearly all times and ensures short distances between the players as they develop strong connections through smaller areas on the pitch. With a formation that is more inclined to a narrow midfield, they favour playing through small spaces with a high density of players rather than covering more space and opening gaps through a broader attack. It’s common to see them neglect the ball-far half of the pitch as the players all take up positions closer to the ball where they can have a more direct impact on the progression of the ball.”

How would I go about this? What adaptations to the current tactic do I need to make to achieve this? From watching the games in full I’ve observed that the strikers especially become the most isolated.

Edited by camoulton21
Grammar Errors

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To answer the original question, I believe there is something to it, that if you're narrow and compact in possession you can not only retain the ball better but also get it back more easily. I try to do it this way,  but it's just my experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Looks interesting, will follow this for sure

 

Edited by Mutumba

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you tried using a Tq instead of AF?

The Tq should drop deep, while he also moves a lot as does an AF so you won't lose that.

Also, the Tq plays more through balls. With the DLF doin the same, you can have a dynamic duo of forwards trying to play each other (and the AM) into space.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Rashidi has some good videos on the 4-3-1-2 in his Stalybridge and Kop diaries. I think his Stalybridge version is similar to @Pompey_Dan's.

In terms of keeping the team more compact, I think more support duties up front would help but you may lose some bite in attack. I've tinkered with this as well but not had much success as there is only space on the flanks which leads to fullbacks and blocked crosses. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, andrewsgn said:

@Rashidi has some good videos on the 4-3-1-2 in his Stalybridge and Kop diaries. I think his Stalybridge version is similar to @Pompey_Dan's.

In terms of keeping the team more compact, I think more support duties up front would help but you may lose some bite in attack. I've tinkered with this as well but not had much success as there is only space on the flanks which leads to fullbacks and blocked crosses. 

 

Thanks for the plug. And to add to this, I do find the 4312 challenging to set up in FM19 and i guess others would feel the same way so i did a whole playlist explaining movement and designing a 4312. It starts out with a goal and then through some mistakes and an understanding of the challenges we end up with a finished product. You can find the playlist here.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

 

14 hours ago, robot_skeleton said:

To answer the original question, I believe there is something to it, that if you're narrow and compact in possession you can not only retain the ball better but also get it back more easily. I try to do it this way,  but it's just my experience.

That's the idea. The Speilverlarung is a website I highly recommend and goes into a lot of depth about the advantages of compactness in both attack and defence. The opportunity to counterpress is definitely something I'll look to include eventually. But for whatever reason Giampaolo isn't as fond, so I thought I'd focus on replicating the tactical elements that he does include first.

6 hours ago, Mutumba said:

Looks interesting, will follow this for sure

 

Thanks man. First time posting so I'm glad you appreciate the premise.

4 hours ago, charisma_charisma said:

Have you tried using a Tq instead of AF?

The Tq should drop deep, while he also moves a lot as does an AF so you won't lose that.

Also, the Tq plays more through balls. With the DLF doin the same, you can have a dynamic duo of forwards trying to play each other (and the AM) into space.

I will experiment with it the next time I play. It should definitely help with the horizontal compactness of the tactic in possession. I have tried two DLFs previously, one on attack and the other on support but found trouble keeping the penetration in the tactic, especially when reaching the edge of the box (lots of long shooting ugh).

3 hours ago, andrewsgn said:

@Rashidi has some good videos on the 4-3-1-2 in his Stalybridge and Kop diaries. I think his Stalybridge version is similar to @Pompey_Dan's.

In terms of keeping the team more compact, I think more support duties up front would help but you may lose some bite in attack. I've tinkered with this as well but not had much success as there is only space on the flanks which leads to fullbacks and blocked crosses. 

 

Thanks for the reply, I'll be sure to take a look at Rashidi's work.

2 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Thanks for the plug. And to add to this, I do find the 4312 challenging to set up in FM19 and i guess others would feel the same way so i did a whole playlist explaining movement and designing a 4312. It starts out with a goal and then through some mistakes and an understanding of the challenges we end up with a finished product. You can find the playlist here.

 

I think the biggest issue I've found with the 4-3-1-2 is players ignoring opportunities to progress the ball through the centre. My original idea was to use the dribble less TI and rely on the triangles in midfield to play vertically, but I'm struggling tbh.

Edited by camoulton21

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

20190702221135_1fd5ed4863cd67ec8.jpg

 

22 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

My question is what the necessary team instructions would be to create a compact team when in possession

First off, I don't see much point in having defend-duty fullbacks (even if in a WB role) in a narrow system such as 4312, unless you want to create a rather conservative tactic based on much defending and occasional attempts of fast and direct counter-attacks. But even if that was your idea - which I suppose was not - two mezzala's make little (if any) sense, because you need more defensively responsible CMs (or at least one of them). The same goes for instructions such as short passing, PoD, distribute to CBs.

Another problem - and something I never fail to stress - is one-dimensionality (e.g. the same role and duty on both flanks and then also for both outer CMs). Thank God, at least your strikers are given different roles :D

Edited by Experienced Defender

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

First off, I don't see much point in having defend-duty fullbacks (even if in a WB role) in a narrow system such as 4312, unless you want to create a rather conservative tactic based on much defending and occasional attempts of fast and direct counter-attacks. But even if that was your idea - which I suppose was not - two mezzala's make little (if any) sense, because you need more defensively responsible CMs (or at least one of them). The same goes for instructions such as short passing, PoD, distribute to CBs.

Another problem - and something I never fail to stress - is one-dimensionality (e.g. the same role and duty on both flanks and then also for both outer CMs). Thank God, at least your strikers are given different roles :D

The tactic is meant to be a recreation of the tactics Marco Giampaolo has used as manager of Empoli and Sampdoria which means I'm working from quite a rigid base in terms of tactical ideas. As I can't expect you to read up on him if you don't know about some of his tactical elements I will try to explain here, although I really do recommend Pompey_Dan's forum linked in my original post.

The defend duty fullbacks are meant to in theory offer the team an opportunity to recycle possession which would hopefully draw out the opposition to allow the team to play through the centre. The fullbacks are also meant to not get ahead of the ball when building up play, only really getting forward when a switch of play if available or when the ball is safely into midfield. Maybe a different role would be more effective at achieving this.

The one dimensional nature of the tactic isn't something I've really thought about and I'll look to address. The idea behind the mezzala's is that there lateral movement (move into channel, stay wider PIs) would allow the team to again open space to play through the centre. Preferably getting the AMC involved. As well, the hope is that these two roles would work together, as the opposition would look to press the deeper fullbacks opening up space for the mezzalas to move into in front. Which is why the tactic is so symmetrical.

The overall idea is that the tactic utilising short passing combinations to move the ball vertically through midfield, hence short passing, PoD and distribute to CBs TIs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, camoulton21 said:

The defend duty fullbacks are meant to in theory offer the team an opportunity to recycle possession which would hopefully draw out the opposition to allow the team to play through the centre. The fullbacks are also meant to not get ahead of the ball when building up play, only really getting forward when a switch of play if available or when the ball is safely into midfield. Maybe a different role would be more effective at achieving this.

FB(S) works OK but I've found all the other FB roles are too aggressive and get forward much earlier in the buildup. I think the tactic you posted is a pretty accurate re-creation but unfortunately it doesn't seem to translate into FM19 that well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, andrewsgn said:

FB(S) works OK but I've found all the other FB roles are too aggressive and get forward much earlier in the buildup. I think the tactic you posted is a pretty accurate re-creation but unfortunately it doesn't seem to translate into FM19 that well. 

I might end up trying a more defensive player role on a higher team mentality to increase the players individual mentality. May also help with making the team play vertically

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

I might end up trying a more defensive player role on a higher team mentality to increase the players individual mentality. May also help with making the team play vertically

You could also try the overlap instruction to increase the mentality of your wingbacks 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, camoulton21 said:

The defend duty fullbacks are meant to in theory offer the team an opportunity to recycle possession which would hopefully draw out the opposition to allow the team to play through the centre. The fullbacks are also meant to not get ahead of the ball when building up play, only really getting forward when a switch of play if available or when the ball is safely into midfield. Maybe a different role would be more effective at achieving this

If that's what you want, I would go with FB on support. And since you play on Balanced mentality, they would still be conservative enough with support duty. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 04/07/2019 at 16:01, Experienced Defender said:

If that's what you want, I would go with FB on support. And since you play on Balanced mentality, they would still be conservative enough with support duty. 

I'll give it a go. What I'm fiddling with at the moment is looking at how I can change the player roles (whilst remaining in the framework of Giampaolo's ideas) as a way to make the team more compact. In previous games I probably would have went for a 'fluid' or 'very fluid' team shape to balance the mentalities across the team, but other topics that I've recently read say that this can be achieved in FM19 through TI (overlap/underlap, focus play) and player roles. Changing the fullbacks to a support duty helps with this so thanks for the advice.

If anyone else has any suggestions that would be greatly appreciated

Edited by camoulton21

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...