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jcp1417

Best way to manage prospects? Loans or U23?

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I'm playing as Arsenal and I have a bunch of players that good enough for Championship, a couple for the PL, but I'm unsure if they are better off in my u23 side or loaned out

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How old are they? If they're over 18 and good enough for the Championship or Premier League, they're better off either being played as part of your team (either first team, or rotational and playing in u23s too) or going out on loan for first-team football.

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2 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

How old are they? If they're over 18 and good enough for the Championship or Premier League, they're better off either being played as part of your team (either first team, or rotational and playing in u23s too) or going out on loan for first-team football.

I'm afraid your answer was the exact question I asked. Loan them or u23?

 

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That's what I'm saying though - I'd only keep them for u23 if you were also planning on playing them rotationally in your first team. If you aren't planning on that, because your first team and main substitutes are substantially better, you should loan them out - I'd ideally try to loan them to a top team in a given competition (top of League 1, Championship) or mid-table Premier League, because sending them to a team that'll struggle to do much more than lose won't really help their development.

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51 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

That's what I'm saying though - I'd only keep them for u23 if you were also planning on playing them rotationally in your first team. If you aren't planning on that, because your first team and main substitutes are substantially better, you should loan them out - I'd ideally try to loan them to a top team in a given competition (top of League 1, Championship) or mid-table Premier League, because sending them to a team that'll struggle to do much more than lose won't really help their development.

ok so what you are saying, unless I can play them in my first team rotationally(what exactly does that mean, btw?), they are better off being loaned to a winning team? You didn't include League Two either, are they better off in U23 than in League 2?

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Your Coach report will tell you at what level they are currently playing at. 

Up until 18-ish, players improve through training, Arsenal's facilities are good enough to keep them in U18s until they are too old.

Over 18 years old and playing time becomes more important for their development than the training ground, so, you need to work out whether or not you can give them enough playing time in your First Team or will they be better off at a lower club playing regularly. This will depend on your Coach Report and their Current Ability. It is important that they play at an appropriate level though (Coach report will guide you)

If your coach reckons they are good enough for Championship, can you give them 15-20 appearances over the season in your first team? League games, cup games etc. If you can then it may be worth keeping them under your wing and playing your tactics and developing that way.

If you don't think they will get that much with you, then loan them out for a season or two.

BE AWARE that the loaning club will impact the development of the player, their facilities, tactics, manager and player squad status will all have a +ve/-ve impact.

When  I am considering the loans out, I have a couple of unbreakable rules for players I am developing to become club stars - high Potential, want them to become my first choice for a position.

1: Borrowing club has to have training facilities AT LEAST 'Good'

2: Player has to be given 'First Team' squad status at least

3: Has to play in the position I am developing him for

Between 18 and 21 I would expect him to have had a couple of seasons on loan at an appropriate level. By 21 he should be good enough to be getting 20-odd appearances for the first team with me and I can round off his development over a couple of seasons.

Youngsters I am only hopeful of becoming backup/squad players I tend not to be so strict (PA of 3* ish) but hey can eventually be valuable on terms of squad cover and also from transfer fees if they perform well on loan.

 

So, your OP was a little broad for a specific answer, it's impossible to say for a particular player without seeing the whole picture, but hopefully this will help guide your decision.

 

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thanks, it helps but still leaves me with questions. You say after 18 that they need to play in matches, so are you implying that U23 games are not beneficial? I thought it was supposed to be a development squad.

almost every player in my u23 team is playing at a league one/two level, some at championship, according to their reports. Are you saying they should all be loaned out if I can't guarantee them playing time? I guess I'm kind of confused as to which type of prospect I should even have at U23

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A lot of my players dont get in to my team untill around 21#22 

I personally think if you can send them anywhere where they get some 1st team football it's more often  tha  not beneficial for me anyway. But yeah certain players I like to keep an eye on if I think there a couple of games they could feature in I'll have them in the u23 squad but TRAINING with the 1st team players if you know how to do that it's also can be useful.

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hace 17 horas, jcp1417 dijo:

I'm playing as Arsenal and I have a bunch of players that good enough for Championship, a couple for the PL, but I'm unsure if they are better off in my u23 side or loaned out

Loan only if you can't affort to use him at least as rotation (as a sub/playing him to rest a first teamer) leave him available to play U23 so he keeps a good shape

U23 does makes the player progress but not as much as playing 20ish games for you or a full season for a mid table/top team

Follow Snorks' rules, if no team meets that criteria for a loan then try to play him in cups/non strong teams to not stagnate him

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I tend to not loan my high potential youngsters as much as I can since even though the squad status is set to "first team" in loan contract/options, not every time they are used as "first team" players. So I prefer them to play in my first team squad, if not play in reserves. But I have to admit that if everything goes well during the loan, the players develop a lot better compared to the reserves. But if everything (manager lets him play, great coaches & facilities, great tactics, high morale, etc.) goes well...

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Yeah having them train with the First Team squad whilst being available for the U23s is a good way as well.

Competitive matches are the most beneficial. Friendlies don't help.

14 hours ago, jcp1417 said:

thanks, it helps but still leaves me with questions. You say after 18 that they need to play in matches, so are you implying that U23 games are not beneficial? I thought it was supposed to be a development squad.

almost every player in my u23 team is playing at a league one/two level, some at championship, according to their reports. Are you saying they should all be loaned out if I can't guarantee them playing time? I guess I'm kind of confused as to which type of prospect I should even have at U23

As with most things in this game it's never a binary question. Playing in U23s matches will help develop them, but no where near as fast as playing in First Team competitive games.

Playing as a First Team regular at a L1 or L2 club with decent facilities will develop them faster than playing U23s.


There are pros and cons with all though:

On loan you give up control of his training, he plays in a system that's likely quite different from yours BUT gets the best boos he can for his ability.

Staying home you can control all aspects of training, but not give him as much first team game time at an appropriate level.

 

I am usually looking to hit that 20/21/22yrs old mark for them to be regular on the bench at least for me - and always reckon on at least two years  playing on loan to get them to that level.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

ok so from what I gather, once a player turns 19, he is always better off being loaned out provided there's a good situation for him(ie. playing time, facilities, team quality, etc.), unless I can provide him with 15-20 matches (does this mean starts, subs, or combined?) in the first team?

If I understand that correctly, then players playing for my U23 should really be guys that I could not find a good situation for and young first teamers that play occasionally but will be available for U23?

Also, are there any pros/cons for placing my better youth players(under 18) in my U23 squad?

Edited by jcp1417

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On 22/06/2019 at 17:54, Snorks said:

 

When  I am considering the loans out, I have a couple of unbreakable rules for players I am developing to become club stars - high Potential, want them to become my first choice for a position.

1: Borrowing club has to have training facilities AT LEAST 'Good'

2: Player has to be given 'First Team' squad status at least

3: Has to play in the position I am developing him for

 

I will say that this is making more and more sense as to why I should have a U23 team instead of loaning everyone out. I am finding that the number of teams willing to play them in the first team *And* has good training facilities is actually not that many. So by keeping them in my U23 team with my facilities makes sense. A 19 year old may only be at the level of League Two, but if there's no league two teams with good facilities offering a loan, then that's the type of player I need to keep in my U23

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Managing Arsenal, you will have trouble finding those lower league teams, you are right. Some Championship clubs have pretty good facilities, and one or two League 1 clubs.

Regardless of my facilities, I always consider a club with facilities ranked as 'Good' or higher - although obviously the better the prospect the higher the standard of facilities you want to expect.

 

At 19 years old, then yes,  I would probably keep them at home. You can develop them into the player you want them to be. Possibly a one year loan at age 20 or 21 just to round him off before breaking into your first team. Be aware that progression may be slower at home.


Foreign clubs could be an option, but that impacts the home-grown status I believe.

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7 hours ago, jcp1417 said:

ok so from what I gather, once a player turns 19, he is always better off being loaned out provided there's a good situation for him(ie. playing time, facilities, team quality, etc.), unless I can provide him with 15-20 matches (does this mean starts, subs, or combined?) in the first team?

No.  "Always" is too strong a term.  Players may be better off being loaned out, but it depends on the player.

My advice:

1) Don't loan out anyone under the age of 18.  Whilst playing matches is important for their development, below this age Training takes precedence.  You can't control how other clubs set up training for their players (including loanees) so keep hold of your youngsters.

2) From 18 years and up, playing matches at a relevant level takes precedence (although Training remains important).  So if your players are suited to the U23s league and the odd cup match, play them in the U23s.  Likewise if a player is not far off your first team, put him into your first team, give him the odd match (and/or substitute appearance) and make him available for the U23s as well.

3) If you think a player isn't quite ready for your first team but could use a better standard of football than just the U23s league, see if you can loan him out to a relevant team where he'll be a key player (or at least "first team").  If you do, always keep an eye on how he performs and develops - recall him if he is stagnating (always include that clause).  Ideally the team you loan him to will have decent training facilities but that's not always possible, so be aware of the standard of football vs facilities and watch how the player gets on.

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I try it to keep it simple and follow the same basic rules already metioned. I never loan players under age of 18. When they are 18, provided that they have good potential, I'm looking to give them first team opportunities or to loan them out. If I'm loaning them out, they have to be at least first team players and I'm looking for best training facilites I can find. If I have really high hopes for a player, I'll sometimes even reject the loan offers if the facilities are not good enough and look to find him some time in my squad, at least off the bench.

I know they have to be playing matches at a relevant level but if a player has a 2 stars CA he is described already as a "decent" so he is ready for some cup games, coming of the bench or playing a game so you give your first choice a rest. And if you are a good team you can get away with even some 1 and a half stars CA players playing here and there because if they are playing in a strong squad, they will probably also get good ratings. I have a situation like that in my squad currently where I bought a youngster of a 1 and a half stars to be my second choice. Not something I would do, usually I want my rotation players to be at least 2 and a half or 3 stars CA level but I didn't have money to bring better player. And he is playing well, even got some assist and he is developing so he is already 2 stars.

On the other hand, I have some proscpects that are at 3 stars CA that are loaned out because I coundn't guarantee them playing time.

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The only thing I’d add to this though is the whole homegrown rule stuff.

always tempting to keep that 19 year old for the extra year (so he is trained by your club and nation) but always on a case by case basis.

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8 hours ago, herne79 said:

So if your players are suited to the U23s league and the odd cup match, play them in the U23s.  Likewise if a player is not far off your first team, put him into your first team, give him the odd match (and/or substitute appearance) and make him available for the U23s as well.

How do you check if the U23 league is equal to the equivalent leagues recommended by the coach report?

 

If I recall, the coach report only uses the domestic first team leagues as a guide. Would going by competition rep be fair game?

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2 hours ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

How do you check if the U23 league is equal to the equivalent leagues recommended by the coach report?

 

If I recall, the coach report only uses the domestic first team leagues as a guide. Would going by competition rep be fair game?

I also wonder the same thing. what is U23 level?

Also, should I play my better U18's in U23 or does it not matter?

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4 hours ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

How do you check if the U23 league is equal to the equivalent leagues recommended by the coach report?

 

If I recall, the coach report only uses the domestic first team leagues as a guide. Would going by competition rep be fair game?

That's what  I look at yes - outside of the domestic league loans, I look at league rep and the team itself within that league. If I can get a team performing well (top half) then I think that helps.

 

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2 hours ago, jcp1417 said:

I also wonder the same thing. what is U23 level?

Also, should I play my better U18's in U23 or does it not matter?

In previous saves, I did nothing. I had a lot of U18\U23's injuried, so toa mange it, I rested them. As a result, they were slower to develop. Since this time, and promoting the better players to U23's, more have developed, That may also have more to do with my Training managment, and Tracking of development.

I use a custom view that works for me - In general, for me - 2 stars = U23's. 2.5, I track a lot more, and I'll not fear them being on my bench if covering for injury. The exceptional train with 1st team and are Mentored (Only IF required), whilst making them availible for the  U23's matches. All those based on ratings and are Irregardless of age.

3 Stars, is normally first team squad. IF I already have minimum players (Take MC - 2 x starters\ 2 x backup\1 who can fill in, + 1 Prospect over 18), I'll loan the young player out. If they are clearly good enough, I'll keep and develop

 

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Posted (edited)

I do similar.

Anyone who is 3 stars CA already, is in the first team squad and will be the 2nd choice in that position. they are treated as any other first-team player.

My U23 squad has three 'levels' and there are 10 or 11 players at each level.

Level 3: 18 yrs old, just outgrown the u18s, are working in training, am keeping them at my club to achieve Home-Grown status.

Level 2: U23 'squad' players. Good enough to do a job in the u23s competitions, never likely to be a first team regular for me and don't hold enough value to sell on.  (I still want to win u23 silverware!)

Level 1: 11 (ish) players. They have home grown status, they are scattered around on loans or are held at club for first team starts.  I try and keep three or four 'at home' for this reason. 

My first team squad has two senior players for each position, a 3rd choice is drawn from the U23s when needed, or when there is a cup-game/chance for first team action.

 

Edited by Snorks

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